Causes of BPD - Sexual Abuse

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

X-posted 

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

See above post--I was confusing you and someone else.

You know, I may be a sucker, but I believe my ex was not exaggerating either.

[steelwork]

X-posted 

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

See above post--I was confusing you and someone else.

You know, I may be a sucker, but I believe my ex was not exaggerating either.

[Moselle]

There is a lot of talk of abuse of the pwBPD on this thread. I am curious to know how much of said abuse has actually been positively confirmed by the Non? As LW pointed out, it's quite common for pwBPD to tell tales of woe in order to get the rescuer to rescuing.

Nice insight. I agree with this.  They magnetize rescuers to the cause.  A mutual friend initially believed her stories of abuse (sexual and otherwise) by me. However she began to see a few inconsistencies in the stories and wasnt comfortable with her alienating the children from me. When she questioned a few things she was  banished from the rescuers club and raged at for daring to question her version of events. Nevermind there are lots of 'rescuers' to take her place. But slowly, some people are realising that things arent matching up. The FOG thickens however.

[SummerStorm]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration. 

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occured or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

If she didn't play the victim with EVERYTHING, it would be easier to believe some of my BPD friend's stories.  The best thing I ever did was ask her now ex-boyfriend for his phone number.  He told me the real story.  The sad thing is that she lied to him about things and he still believes them.  They were supposed to move across the country to live with her mom and stepdad.  A month before the move, she told him she wanted to stay because they promised her a big job promotion at work.  She works at a convenience store, and she had only been there for a few weeks when this big promotion was supposedly offered to her.  Well, guess what?  Six months later, she still hasn't gotten any big promotion.  The story she told her mom and stepdad, however, was that he physically abused her.  Then, after she robbed him and he called the police on her, she made up some grandiose story to tell her mom and made herself out to be the victim.

A few weeks ago, she texted me and told me her mom called her a "crack w**re."  Her mom didn't call her that.  All she did was tell her that she should stop posting drug references on Facebook because her employer might see them.  But the tale she spun was that her mom started a fight with her, blah blah blah.  I didn't let her pull me into that triangulation.  So now, her mom is painted black, while her dad, who was painted black for several months last year, is painted white.  He recently asked her about the feud with her mom, and she blamed everything on her mom.  He tried to get her to admit that she made things worse by calling her mom bad names, but she just got mad at him.  

[SummerStorm]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration.  

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occurred or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

This is really spooky. It never occurred to me to doubt my uBPDx's story. He was utterly convincing--partly because he was so matter-of-fact about it for the first year I knew him (only opening up emotionally later on). And the details were so specific and woven into a narrative that included some other extreme circumstances that have been verified. (Like the isolationist fundamentalist church his family joined.)

But then I never thought he'd be capable of some of the distortions he's come up with about me, so why do I have such faith in his reports about his childhood?

Mine was very vague about it, as she is with everything.  It saves her from getting caught in lies.  She never mentioned the names of her supposedly abusive ex-boyfriends, probably because she's still friends with them on Facebook. 

But yes, she was incredibly convincing.  In the weeks leading up to her telling me, she went on and on about how I might be someone she could "tell her secrets to."  Then, one day, she sent me about three or four texts about her past.  When I took the bait, she told me she'd been waiting all her life for someone like me. 

I'm sure she'll be telling the new guy all of this pretty soon.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I guess. 

[Feelinstronger]

I feel for you. I too was in a mostly loving and wonderful relationship with a man w BPD. Did not realize it through numerous break ups and reuniting, but our 8th breakup appears final. He disclosed to me an incident when he was a boy - a relative. He seems to have forgiven the person, however later came to know the relative also touched his siblings.  Of course its impossible to truly understand such a terrible betrayal. And to a great extent many of these victims rise above it, and go on to live surprisingly highly functional lives.  But the injury remains and who can find blame on them for feeling the effects decades later. In his case, mental illness is also in his immediate family, also making BPD more likely. My advice for you - in order for you to live a truly good life going forward: in your heart, find and give kindness and mercy. To your former partner and yourself. If you are forgiving and merciful after being injured and left, you will eventually be shown forgiveness and mercy too. Peace be with you.

[apollotech]

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

Turkish,

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

[cosmonaut]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining whether or not they are true.  You are aware that sexual abuse happens in private, right?  :)o you have any idea how many victims aren't believed?  There was just a massive scandal in Rotterham, UK where over 1,400 girls were raped over the past 20 years by criminal gangs.  The police didn't believe them.  I hope you'll take a minute and rethink what you are saying.

[apollotech]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining whether or not they are true.  You are aware that sexual abuse happens in private, right?  :)o you have any idea how many victims aren't believed?  There was just a massive scandal in Rotterham, UK where over 1,400 girls were raped over the past 20 years by criminal gangs.  The police didn't believe them.  I hope you'll take a minute and rethink what you are saying.

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

[cosmonaut]

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

How do you propose to test to make sure that what they are saying is true?  Please tell me.

[apollotech]

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

How do you propose to test to make sure that what they are saying is true?  Please tell me.

I think there has been one example of confirming abuse already given here (see SummerStorm's post). Cosmonaut, let me ask you this, should all claims of abuse just be accepted at face value? We should just persecute the accused without any evidence that the abuse occured other than the word of the accuser? (Especially when the accuser has already proven themselves to be untruthful on many issues.) I think this is where you've misinterpreted what I have said. You're stuck on believe, I said to confirm, which, unfortunately, didn't occur in the UK. Cosmonaut, for every example that you can give where abuse did indeed occur, there is also an example of where abuse was claimed, yet said claim was discovered to be unfounded. That is what I was saying in my posts.

Here is my story of confirmation cosmonaut: In my personal relationship I heard many tales of an abusive exhusband. After the demise of my relationship with this woman, I decided to do a little checking on some of her stories. I happened to have business at the couthouse in the parish where she was granted a divorce from her claimed abuser. When i finished my business there, I stopped by the records office and had the clerk pull her divorce proceedings. Would you like to know how many times the word "abuse" appeared in the divorce record?---zero. Would you like to know how many police records and/or medical records were submitted as evidence to said abuse?---zero. Would you like to know how many times her attorney raised claims of abuse during the proceedings?---zero. Would you like to know how many witnesses (friends and/or relatives, including children of late teenage years that were living under the same roof as her and her husband at the time) were called to testify to said abuse?---zero. Would you like to know the grounds on which the divorce was actually granted?---No Fault. (Also, this horribly abusive man had never been arrested for anything his entire life, not one time with any woman that he had ever been involved with, including this ex that was accusing him of every abusive thing that you could think of) Yet, my BPDexgf had absolutely no problem telling anyone that would listen about the abuse she suffered at the hands of her ex. When I finally walked out of the relationship, would you like to know who became her latest abuser at that time?---I did. Would you like to know how many times I actually abused her?---zero, never even called her an ugly name nor did I ever even raise my voice at her, much less raise my hand at her. Would you like to know who her latest abuser is?---check her Facebook page, it'll be the last guy that walked away from her or she discarded.

Now, with all that said, does that confirm that people are not abused?---no, in no way, shape, or form is that claim being made. But it does lustrate that some claims of abuse are BS manufactured to achieve an end result.

[apollotech]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining.

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

[thisworld]

Hello

I think the statement causing the disagreement is the one that seems to suggest that the survivor's narrative/telling style may be used as a criterion to determine the actuality of the said event. (The first sentence in the quotation above. Honestly, I got this impression from this statement, too; but when our experience of BPD is in the equation, I find it somehow understandable though I can see how it can offend as well.) As a fact, we know that this is not true and abuse survivors tell their stories in many different ways - sometimes in laughter to compensate for shame, sometimes they write quite pornographic narratives on support sites etc. None of this changes anything about the accuracy of the event actually. (I believe my ex's story but was alienated by the tone he talked about it because I associated it with the tone he used when his NPD was at work - and maybe this was just a bias of mine but my gut said this to me at that time. It was this association that made it difficult for me, not the tone on its own.)   

But I'd like to point at something else as well. We have been talking about "confirming" abuse. Unless it's a well-documented case - which is extremely rare for a lot of reasons- we basically cannot confirm abuse. Who are we going to ask? One of the potential abusers or their silent support cycle? How credible are people whom we deem credible? But I think what matters is what we do with this information (true or not) and whatever we think is its effects on our relationship with a person.

So, as Nons, how does a potential history of abuse affect our understanding of our partner, our expectations from them, how much we hold them responsible or accountable for their behaviours that we think stem from abuse? Basically what are our emotional boundaries in regard to the present behaviour that we think stems from a history of abuse? I think this would change for everyone and exchanging opinions may be beneficial for all of us maybe?

Also, if we believe your partner "exaggerated" what happened (which is possible as much as different emotional realities are possible in a topic like this and we are not talking about PTSD survivors only, we are talking about individuals with BPD), again, how does it affect our understanding of our partner and our relationships? 

I honestly think we can only talk about ourselves here, discovering our truth. There is the statistic that 75% of pwBPD report childhood abuse. Within that though, everyone has their unique story. Also, apparently, some BPD patients are officially diagnosed with PTSD in the US so that the insurance offers longer-term health support. We may believe something; we may be correct or we may be terribly wrong. But how did the presence of abuse (as a fact or fabrication) affect our relationships?

[iluminati]

Interesting thread.  Here are a few things to add based on my experience.

* Most people with BPD tend to be matter of fact in terms of relating their experiences.  In something that doesn't matter sense at first glance, people with BPD don't tend to think of their sexual abuse as particularly remarkable.  They're more amazed that it doesn't happen to anyone.

* People with BPD will try to draw attention for something else which, once you do some digging, is connected to their abuse.  For example, my ex-wife was very strange about her feet being touched or even looked at for any reason.  She will melt down if you notice her bare feet for any reason.  However, she was matter of fact about being molested by a minister and family friend with a foot fetish.

* Sexual abuse in and of itself doesn't cause BPD.  Roughly 20% of children have been sexually abused in the US, while BPD rates range from 2-6%.  :)o the math.  Interestingly enough, there are studies that show that sexual abuse in and of itself isn't as damaging.  If the victim has a supportive family, while they won't look on it as a positive experience, they can function relatively well.  The thing is that pedophiles tend to target dysfunctional families.  So then it becomes a question of what came first, the dysfunction or the molestation.    And even on top of that, that dysfunction doesn't necessarily lead to BPD.  Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

* With BPD, it isn't just the sexual abuse per se but the amount of abuse, the depth of abuse and the dysfunctional family response.  You hear a lot of abuse being shut up for years because of a wealth of family issues.  So when you're dealing with BPD and sexual abuse, you're also dealing with the family dysfunction and the codepdendent adults that ultimately drive it.

[apollotech]

Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

iluminati,

I am pretty sure that I am reading this incorrectly, so please correct me, but what you seem to be saying is that childhood sexual abuse is a necessity to cause BPD, but in and of itself, alone, is not sufficient enough to cause BPD?

[iluminati]

Yes.  I've seen academic discussions mention something on the order of 90% of patients have sexual abuse histories.  That said, the majority of sexual abuse victims don't have BPD.  That doesn't mean that they're all happy.  That just means their issues don't result in BPD.

[thisworld]

* With BPD, it isn't just the sexual abuse per se but the amount of abuse, the depth of abuse and the dysfunctional family response.

Isn't this so for everyone?

[apollotech]

Yes.  I've seen academic discussions mention something on the order of 90% of patients have sexual abuse histories.  That said, the majority of sexual abuse victims don't have BPD.  That doesn't mean that they're all happy.  That just means their issues don't result in BPD.

Roughly 20% of children have been sexually abused in the US, while BPD rates range from 2-6%.

How would one account for the discrepancy between these statistics? If childhood sexual abuse is a necessity for the development of BPD, shouldn't that latter statistic for pwBPD be at close to 100℅ reporting childhood sexual abuse? (See the problem here?)

[Turkish]

Did some digging today, and it seems that 75% of pwBPD have a history of childhood sexual abuse. PTSD (an Axis I "state" disorder, like depression), is also prevalent, and can present complications for clinicians diagnosing BPD (an Axis II "trait" disorder).

However it breaks down, the prevalence of sexual abuse is saddening. The 1 in 5 statistic is correct (1/3 girls and 1/6 boys before the age of 18) become victims. The ratios vary slightly depending upon the study.

The point about dysfunctional families playing a part seems valid, especially given a narcissistic family dynamic where abuse is hidden or denied to preserve the family unit. That's my Ex's family.

[Michelle27]

I seriously questioned my ex on whether he had been sexually abused as a boy, something he denied but with a disclaimer of, "if I was, I don't remember". 

The reason I questioned this is because his symptoms of raging, more obvious in his lies and depression symptoms surfaced big time when his son from his first marriage disclosed sexual abuse by his step brothers in the Mom's home.  And several years later when his son went onto attempt inappropriate sexual play with my daughter with my BPD ex, it got worse.  I strongly suspect a history of sexual abuse towards my ex.

He did admit to a childhood of neglect, and physical and verbal abuse growing up.  Even got angry about it at one point and confronted his father about it (so he says).  His Mom passed away before I met him but subsequent to the breakup, I was told by his first wife that of the 2 parents, she was "crazy".  He had led me to believe his Mom was basically an angel on earth and his Dad was the abusive parent.  So I am sure there is much more than what I was told to the story.

[cosmonaut]

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

Apollo, I wrote in anger in my first post and chose my words carelessly.  I apologize for that.

I am still troubled by what you are writing, but I realize that it is not an uncommon view in our society.  I am wrong to single you out, because it is something that is a far wider problem in our society.  It is a very sad fact that sexual abuse is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves, and discrediting and blaming the victim is all too common.  I become frustrated with this, because there is overwhelming evidence that sexual abuse is one of the most damaging, lasting crimes that can be inflicted upon a person.  It may result in life long scars.  This reality hasn't sunk in with a good portion of society yet, even as progress is definitely being made.  Still, people believe what they want to believe and even facts are often not enough to change someone's mind.  Our views are often incredibly resistant to change.  Often the most we can hope for is to plant a seed.  Perhaps I can do that here.

Confirming rape and sexual abuse are notoriously difficult to prove.  Most often there are only two witnesses: the abuser and the victim.  Physical evidence can be very hard to come by, and most assaults are not reported immediately due to the shame that is a natural byproduct of the worst violation that can be inflicted upon a person.  Even when physical evidence exists, rapists' favorite defense is the "it was consensual" defense, and the case devolves into "he said, she said".  This is where the terrible assaults on the character of the victim begin, which is further victimization.  This is one of several reasons why many victims choose to not pursue justice.  Here is a good article from the University of Virginia School of Law that goes into further details about why rape and sexual assault are so difficult to prosecute.  It is a matter of widely accepted fact that the vast majority of sexual offenders are never prosecuted.  A high profile of this is Bill Cosby.  :)espite having over 50 accusers and on the record admissions on his behalf, he is still a free man and it is unlikely he will ever see prison.  This is extremely common.  The most common reason these women did not come forward earlier: they didn't think anyone would believe them.  So, your suggestion that victims need to be able to "confirm" their allegations in order to be treated with seriousness is a very dangerous idea.  It would exclude the vast majority of victims and further add to their victimization.

In a court of law obviously the rights of the defendant are given the greater priority, but in the world of support and healing it must be the other way around for the reasons outlined above.  Namely, that most victims can't prove their case, through no fault of their own.  Sexual abuse is a hidden crime.  Should therapists refuse to treat a victim of sexual abuse without confirmation?  Should pastors not provide spiritual guidance?  Should we as partners not provide our support and nurturing?  There is a place for critical thinking and if a partner's story does not hold up, that is another matter.  But otherwise, it should be our duty to believe and support our partner.  Your idea that if the victim claims to be a victim means that they are not a victim is simply wrong.  That a victim is a victim is true by definition.  It is as self evident a fact as water is wet.  As thisworld put it very well, victims express themselves in numerous ways.

You have not specifically discredited a claim of abuse.  You have done far more.  You have discredited all BPD victims of abuse who can not "confirm" their abuse.

Perhaps your personal story is clouding your judgment regarding pwBPD as a whole.  I would also like to point out that your reasoning does not show that your ex is lying about her abuse.  Because a != c, a !=d, and a !=e, we cannot show that a != b.  Can you see that?  All of the examples that you have given may strain the credibility of her claims, but they do not disprove it.  I'm truly sorry to hear that you have been falsely accused, and I certainly do not deny the reality that there are false claims of abuse.  This does not, however, invalidate that fact that the vast majority of victims cannot prove their case.  That does not mean that they are untrue.

[tryingsome]

BPD is like an avalanche.

It usually started way up top in the past somewhere. Some point when they were left alone on the mountain top.

They started falling.

This cascade started before sexual abuse.

But as it rolls down the mountain, more and more trauma follows suit (this may or may not include sexual abuse).

And at the bottom, they are just a bunch of intermingled traumas heaped into a large mound of snow.

So no, sexual abuse does not cause BPD, but it is not uncommon for them to pick this up as additional trauma along the paths of their lives.

[Lifewriter16]

BPD is like an avalanche.

It usually started way up top in the past somewhere. Some point when they were left alone on the mountain top.

They started falling.

This cascade started before sexual abuse.

But as it rolls down the mountain, more and more trauma follows suit (this may or may not include sexual abuse).

And at the bottom, they are just a bunch of intermingled traumas heaped into a large mound of snow.

So no, sexual abuse does not cause BPD, but it is not uncommon for them to pick this up as additional trauma along the paths of their lives.

Nicely put!

[cosmonaut]

Interestingly enough, there are studies that show that sexual abuse in and of itself isn't as damaging.  If the victim has a supportive family, while they won't look on it as a positive experience, they can function relatively well.  The thing is that pedophiles tend to target dysfunctional families.  So then it becomes a question of what came first, the dysfunction or the molestation.    And even on top of that, that dysfunction doesn't necessarily lead to BPD.  Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

Source?  Rape has been found in some studies to be as or even more traumatic than war.  See section 2.2.3 here and the study here.

BPD isn't necessarily caused by sexual abuse, but it is an established fact that there is an unusually high correlation between physical and sexual abuse and BPD.  You can read the study here for further information.  This makes sense from what we know of the disorder, since abuse is the ultimate invalidation.

[apollotech]

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

Apollo, I wrote in anger in my first post and chose my words carelessly.  I apologize for that.

I am still troubled by what you are writing, but I realize that it is not an uncommon view in our society.  I am wrong to single you out, because it is something that is a far wider problem in our society.  It is a very sad fact that sexual abuse is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves, and discrediting and blaming the victim is all too common.  I become frustrated with this, because there is overwhelming evidence that sexual abuse is one of the most damaging, lasting crimes that can be inflicted upon a person.  It may result in life long scars.  This reality hasn't sunk in with a good portion of society yet, even as progress is definitely being made.  Still, people believe what they want to believe and even facts are often not enough to change someone's mind.  Our views are often incredibly resistant to change.  Often the most we can hope for is to plant a seed.  Perhaps I can do that here.

Confirming rape and sexual abuse are notoriously difficult to prove.  Most often there are only two witnesses: the abuser and the victim.  Physical evidence can be very hard to come by, and most assaults are not reported immediately due to the shame that is a natural byproduct of the worst violation that can be inflicted upon a person.  Even when physical evidence exists, rapists' favorite defense is the "it was consensual" defense, and the case devolves into "he said, she said".  This is where the terrible assaults on the character of the victim begin, which is further victimization.  This is one of several reasons why many victims choose to not pursue justice.  Here is a good article from the University of Virginia School of Law that goes into further details about why rape and sexual assault are so difficult to prosecute.  It is a matter of widely accepted fact that the vast majority of sexual offenders are never prosecuted.  A high profile of this is Bill Cosby.  :)espite having over 50 accusers and on the record admissions on his behalf, he is still a free man and it is unlikely he will ever see prison.  This is extremely common.  The most common reason these women did not come forward earlier: they didn't think anyone would believe them.  So, your suggestion that victims need to be able to "confirm" their allegations in order to be treated with seriousness is a very dangerous idea.  It would exclude the vast majority of victims and further add to their victimization.

In a court of law obviously the rights of the defendant are given the greater priority, but in the world of support and healing it must be the other way around for the reasons outlined above.  Namely, that most victims can't prove their case, through no fault of their own.  Sexual abuse is a hidden crime.  Should therapists refuse to treat a victim of sexual abuse without confirmation?  Should pastors not provide spiritual guidance?  Should we as partners not provide our support and nurturing?  There is a place for critical thinking and if a partner's story does not hold up, that is another matter.  But otherwise, it should be our duty to believe and support our partner.  Your idea that if the victim claims to be a victim means that they are not a victim is simply wrong.  That a victim is a victim is true by definition.  It is as self evident a fact as water is wet.  As thisworld put it very well, victims express themselves in numerous ways.

You have not specifically discredited a claim of abuse.  You have done far more.  You have discredited all BPD victims of abuse who can not "confirm" their abuse.

Perhaps your personal story is clouding your judgment regarding pwBPD as a whole.  I would also like to point out that your reasoning does not show that your ex is lying about her abuse.  Because a != c, a !=d, and a !=e, we cannot show that a != b.  Can you see that?  All of the examples that you have given may strain the credibility of her claims, but they do not disprove it.  I'm truly sorry to hear that you have been falsely accused, and I certainly do not deny the reality that there are false claims of abuse.  This does not, however, invalidate that fact that the vast majority of victims cannot prove their case.  That does not mean that they are untrue.

Cosmonaut,

I agree with you very much on much of what you're saying. Child abuse of any nature is a horrible crime and should be addressed swiftly and with severe consequences. But, at the same time, those that are accused of such crimes, must also be dealt with justly. Myself, I don't know of any other way to handle that other than trying to confirm or deny the abuse. Is it a perfect system that will fulfill all obligations at all times for all involved parties to reach the truth?---no it want. But we cannot create perfect systems. You asked if I was aware that much abuse occurs within secrecy, yes I am aware of that. Again, I don't believe that we have systems to negate said secrecy efficiently 100℅ of the time to arrive at the truth. However, that shouldn't prevent us from attempting to arrive at the truth.

I don't recall saying that because someone says that they're a victim that automatically entails that they weren't a victim. That's what you're saying that I said. And no, I have not discredited anyone's claim of abuse. You are doing it by taking what I have said and applying it at the individual level. That's a fallacy. That is why I asked you to point out where I have applied the notion that not all claims of abuse are legitimate at the individual level. You're taking great liberties with what I said and applying them to issues that were never raised by me, such as, should victims be supported. I don't appreciate that.

Let me ask you this cosmonaut: if I ran a poll in a prison polling the prison population regarding their guilt or innocence and 75% of the inmate population professed their innocence, would you just automatically assume that that's correct, that 75% of said prisoner population should be released? I doubt very seriously that we'd even be having this discussion if it concerned that population. Now, is it possible that some of that 75% are indeed innocent?---yes, that's a possibility. Is it possible that all 75% of said population are innocent?---yes, that too is a possibility. Is it likely that all 75% are innocent?---no, that's not likely. Can I take that statistic, with confidence, walk up to someone in that prison population and declare their innocence or guilt based on that statistic?---no I cannot. That is what you're claiming that I am doing, and I am not.

I agree with you Cosmonaut, my example of my own situation (at least the exH piece) does not fully deny the abuse that might have occured in the marriage. However, it is just as foul to assume that said abuse occured because it cannot be completely denied. Again, we are back to an imperfect system.

Now, the piece about my abuse: that I can confirm or deny, I was there. I can tell you that that was manufactured so she could play the victim. My "atrocities" were posted on Facebook in order for her to gain sympathy from her enablers. But, she couldn't name me there as we have too many mutual friends on there that go all the way back to our childhood. They would have called her out if I would have been named.

No, my judgement isn't clouded by my personal experiences, not to the extent that you're asking about. I don't believe that all claims of childhood abuse are true, and I do believe that it's important to be aware of that possibility, especially when dealing with someone (a pwBPD) that may have "reality" issues (emotions = reality) and may have a proven track record of exaggeration, lying, and/or creating scenarios which allow them to play the victim (insert any post regarding smear campaigns here).

The best to you Cosmonaut, apology accepted. I am going to accept that we disagree or have had fouled communications/undetstanding here.

[lbjnltx]

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