She wrote to the counselor that "I want her dead..."

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, I peeked.

I'm still ok, actually kinda relieved that he will see (read) a dysregulation in action.

I can tell when she is writing in that state because of the misspellings (doesn't even pay attention to auto-correct).

I saved a pdf of this and will send it to counselor.  

She is claiming that my version of events is a fantasy and it is the other way around that I am the one dysregulating (not her word) and doing things to her.

Anyway, she told the counselor in the write up that she lives with a man that "wants her dead, "  Paranoia on full display.

This is why only God can help us. He knows what happened. It really doesnt matter if you believe me or not. The man stood over the tub holding a plugged in electrical device while I was standing in the water with my back to him. It was not on, there were no playful noises… no poking at me, he planned to drop it in the water but didnt go through with it. I live with him right now every day. God has used my marriage to change my heart… my focus was FF… I wanted him to love me… I tried so hard, Pastor "previous counselor" and "wife" helped me see that I was putting FF in Gods place in my life… I wanted to fix that but couldn’t… prayed about it for years… Within the last few weeks God took his rightful place in my heart. It has taken years of marital misery.  I didn’t even feel the need to defend myself or explain what really happened when FF emailed you that unbelievable list. The descriptions alone would have made me so angry before… I have come to KNOW that there is no help for us other than GOD. It doesn’t matter who you believe… if you think I am more at fault then you will pray for me more and give me more homework and help root out my heart issues quicker… if you believe it’s FF then he gets extra help… it’s a win win as far as I am concerned. I think we both need help desperately. This is rock bottom. I live with a man who wants me dead. But I do know that God is with me and no one determines when I die but him. He is my new  Bestie and I may be nothing but a worthless sinner, but He loves me, and heaven help whoever messes with his daughter.

Well, it's out there,

Maybe I need that flak jacket back,

FF

[formflier]

So, I peeked.

I'm still ok, actually kinda relieved that he will see (read) a dysregulation in action.

I can tell when she is writing in that state because of the misspellings (doesn't even pay attention to auto-correct).

I saved a pdf of this and will send it to counselor.  

She is claiming that my version of events is a fantasy and it is the other way around that I am the one dysregulating (not her word) and doing things to her.

Anyway, she told the counselor in the write up that she lives with a man that "wants her dead, "  Paranoia on full display.

This is why only God can help us. He knows what happened. It really doesnt matter if you believe me or not. The man stood over the tub holding a plugged in electrical device while I was standing in the water with my back to him. It was not on, there were no playful noises… no poking at me, he planned to drop it in the water but didnt go through with it. I live with him right now every day. God has used my marriage to change my heart… my focus was FF… I wanted him to love me… I tried so hard, Pastor "previous counselor" and "wife" helped me see that I was putting FF in Gods place in my life… I wanted to fix that but couldn’t… prayed about it for years… Within the last few weeks God took his rightful place in my heart. It has taken years of marital misery.  I didn’t even feel the need to defend myself or explain what really happened when FF emailed you that unbelievable list. The descriptions alone would have made me so angry before… I have come to KNOW that there is no help for us other than GOD. It doesn’t matter who you believe… if you think I am more at fault then you will pray for me more and give me more homework and help root out my heart issues quicker… if you believe it’s FF then he gets extra help… it’s a win win as far as I am concerned. I think we both need help desperately. This is rock bottom. I live with a man who wants me dead. But I do know that God is with me and no one determines when I die but him. He is my new  Bestie and I may be nothing but a worthless sinner, but He loves me, and heaven help whoever messes with his daughter.

Well, it's out there,

Maybe I need that flak jacket back,

FF

[Notwendy]

Are you sure there isn't more than BPD going on? This sounds delusional- paranoia. I say this because I have heard some doozies from my mother when she dysregulates but not that a family member planned to kill her. This isn't that you supposedly want her dead- you supposedly planned to do it.

This could possibly be a good thing- the counselor may get tipped off that this is different than two people not getting along and refer- so that she gets the help she needs.

I'm thinking this along with the recent upswings in her disorganized behavior.

[Sunfl0wer]

Am I crazy?

... .it sounds like she is trusting this process?

Now it makes sense why she was insistent on using this MC.

It sounds like she is being honest.

Gosh, that is sad...   Must have been hard for her that that is the only event you forgot to add.

[KateCat]

Are you sure there isn't more than BPD going on? This sounds delusional- paranoia.

This is how delusional paranoia looks in my world. Often it's very "calm."

My husband's psychiatrist told me that even a paranoid person needs to trust someone. If this is true, then I think you're still the person your wife "trusts." But that her illness causes that trust to fracture under pressure. It can be this stark when it occurs.

It may be hard to find positives in this, but it seems to me that the positives are that your wife is not really all that "borderline." She's loyal to you and to her family. She's hardworking and sincere. She's not scattered and confused about her faith or her principles. She seems pretty stable in her own way.

I think it's a good thing that your wife will be revealing so much to your counselor.

And it is really sad and a hard thing to come to terms with.   

[formflier]

 

The former counselor that my wife referenced is friends with (professionally, not sure if they are personal friends), was very frustrated trying to "deal with" my wife's paranoia.  This was back in the day of the secret family in the barn, the baby I had with the militant breast feeding mom, and how I would sneak home a couple days early from Navy trips to service all my concubines before "pretending" to fly in on the day my wife would pick me up. 

That was before I knew about BPD and the rules.  As long as I can stay away from direct (slam it in your face) invalidation, those really bad symptoms seem to stay off to the side (under the surface, whatever).

I hadn't even thought about how invalidating it would be to her to have that one event be "forgotten".  It was so preposterous that I didn't even notice.  Plus, my brain was focused on using the force to get me laid,  

And the weird thing is, I'm pretty sure that I did get laid after things calmed down.  Although what I remember is that I figured out that the vibrator/massager was somehow triggering her, so I switched to some other "force tool" and proceeding on with things.

For those that are somewhat new to my story.  Yes, Paranoia seems to be central to my wife's stuff, whatever "stuff" means.

I have had many say that to me, including the PhD type that did our family counseling and my PTSD treatment. 

And, yes, I am aware of the outlook/success rate of treating paranoia,    :'(

Many of the "rules" still apply and many times the presentation, when I avoid direct invalidation, is more BPDish.  But you are right, their is a fierce "loyalty" there.  I will say that sometimes it seems that she switches loyalities or "adjusts" them between her FOO and me.

Not sure if I addressed all the posts/questions.  Will cut this response for now.

FF

[KateCat]

Paranoia seems to be central to my wife's stuff... .whatever "stuff" means.

Are you still looking for explanation or greater understanding? As I've watched clinical paranoia over the years, I've come to see that it's actually something pretty "mechanical" (at least when viewed from the perspective of a family member, and over a period of time). People with this disorder will typically display the same "stuff," with slight variations for age, gender, culture of origin, and so on.

It seems too that therapists, when they understand what they are dealing with in the care of people who suffer from paranoia, do not knock themselves out trying to defeat the paranoia. They try instead to find ways to help the patient and the family members cope with it.

[formflier]

Are you still looking for explanation or greater understanding? 

Always looking for greater understanding, but really more of a reference to being "open minded" that paranoia is central and likely other co-morbid stuff knocking around.

Basically trying not to label it "too exactly"

FF

[KateCat]

I see.

Any idea what you will eventually share with your children about all of this? That's a dilemma I've never had to face.

Main practical tips I can offer (as long as your particular therapist doesn't disagree with this approach) are to accept the condition; not react to accusations like this with great surprise or alarm; and to continue working toward being the calm leader in your home.

I'm pretty sure you grasp most of this and aren't going to be offering to take any more DNA tests or anything.

And just as you have an ongoing need for your sleep and some calm time, it might be the case that your wife needs to pace and mutter to herself, and multi-task and distract herself with social media when a wave of anxiety comes.

It seems possible to kind of "domesticate" the beast of paranoia and anxiety, if not to banish it entirely.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have to admit, after reading that, I had a strong sense of compassion towards her and her pain.

Does you feel this new understanding affects how you perceive your wife?

[formflier]

I'm pretty sure you grasp most of this and aren't going to be offering to take any more DNA tests or anything.

Oh, I remember those days, not fondly, but I remember them.  I soo thought I had her "cornered".  Without batting an eye she said "You still were sleeping with her, "

And just as you have an ongoing need for your sleep and some calm time, it might be the case that your wife needs to pace and mutter to herself, and multi-task and distract herself with social media when a wave of anxiety comes.

It seems possible to kind of "domesticate" the beast of paranoia and anxiety, if not to banish it entirely.

Yep, this is very much where my thinking is.  Plus my wife can "blame" her giving up control on the counselor, Bible, whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I am praying for complete healing.  I also know that I have done this before and got the answer back "not yet",   Which is a hard answer to deal with. 

FF

[formflier]

 

Here honesty candor and truthfulness (to her perspective) do give me hope.

This morning she seemed "off" much like she does after a big dysregulation.  Note the spelling/grammar errors.  Many of the names I replace were all jacked up.

Off to talk a walk and focus on some self care.

FF

Below is my writeup and her response to another situation.  I find it interesting what she "admits" to,

Problem/situation:   It seemed like a relaxed Saturday in February.  I was grateful and looked forward to accomplishing some things around house and in garage.  FF wife approached me and asked what I was thinking about doing for the day.  I indicated I wanted to work in garage for bit and involved kids in chores later.  She sort of said ok, but in a way that was odd, I was unsure if it was “ok I hear you” or “ok I approve”.  She didn’t have much to say about her plans.  Approx an hour later the approaches me and says she wants to go skating and take some kids.  I’m open to idea but trying to pin down timeline and options.  She is insistent they must leave quickly because of a schedule that was unclear.  As I tried to clarify she kept saying she has mentioned skating before (which she has).   She indicated that D2 and D5 (youngest two) would not be a good fit.  I agreed.  Seeing the conversation was going nowhere, I agreed to skating since she was insisted they would be back at 3pm.  I said I would enjoy keeping D2 and D5.  FF wife was insistent I had told her I was working in garage.  I indicated I was done for now and had flexibility.  He demeanor “snapped”, she said that leaving the girls with me was not a good idea and that they wanted to go skating.  She rushed to the other room and started asking them if they wanted to go.  I insisted we go talk privately to sort this out and not involve the kids.  Kids start gathering to watch.  FF wife starts stomping back and forth between a couple rooms saying “FF you are insane….you daddy is insane…”  I protest ff wife lecturing kids on my mental health and taking kids away from me.  She says I can have them “all I want” after 3pm.  She leaves.  At 3pm she says kids “need to eat” and are at her parents.  Kids are kept away until early evening.  No further discussion or resolution

this is just crazy… ff did say he wanted to work in the garage… I went upstaris and talked to (kid) about what she wanted to do becasue she was having surgery Monday… we had wanted to go to (place) candies or skating and decided it was a beautiful day and we should skate because after her surgery whe wouldnt be able to.  I had talked to FF about taking the kdis skating several times before and he agreed it was a good idea.  I went downstairs and told him I was going to take the kids skating and did he want to come. He got angry and didnt want us to go because he was working in the garage. He didnt want to come skating and wanted to keep D5 and D2 at home. I did say no. That is not safe. IT just isnt. God help me. We left and I took D5 and D2 skating with us.  I didnt “snap” or rush around… FF began yelling, I may have said you are insane… but I really meant it. All of his accounts of what has happened prove that. But the kids and I are the only ones who know it. And God.

[Sunfl0wer]

Is triangulating God going to be a positive triangle?

Interesting

She actually wants you both saved, so essentially, you two are kinda not exactly on opposite corners of triangle. 

Enjoy your self care!

[formflier]

 

Was a great walk.  Had good phone conversation with a friend and enjoyed a cup of coffee.

Now going to try and work some things off "the list",

FF

[empath]

My husband has been describing his own healing to our clergy, saying that he is 'feeling' peaceful and having a sense of God's presence and healing. Meanwhile, he has been having significant physical symptoms of stress (he went to the Emergency room one afternoon) and threatens divorce. Saying the right words does not mean that they are being honest, sometimes, it is an effort to prove that they are the person that is more 'right with God'. When their words don't seem to line up with what they are doing, something is off.

How much do you know about your wife's inner experience? Or can you extrapolate some of it? For example, my husband has always had issues related to my career and/or jobs; he has said several times that he is afraid that if I have a career or can provide for myself that I will leave him. He tends to have problematic behavior when I am working.

[formflier]

Thinking about her inner workings is a best guess, at best.

There are several on these boards that make the point, that she may not be able to handle the stress of being a full time teacher, especially if I am the SAHD, which I sorta am right now.

Perhaps the model of me working and her staying home works best.

I am "hoping" that a two career family with fantastic pre-school for D5 and D2 is where we can end up. 

D5 is in a program right now that I am really happy about and D5 is thriving there.  Very happy with childcare options around here if both parents are working.

FF

[formflier]

 

I'm guessing she has finished writing her version.  I've got a bunch more incidents to write about.

She's acting up.  Came roaring in the house, ordered kids to go with her, and I guess went to the pool.

Sent me some mocking texts about writing science fiction and being "Godly".

So, I think the counselor will get a clearer view,

Off to see what goodies she wrote.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

If we assume she was honest and actually does feel that you were/are out to kill her... .

Then consider how all the pieces fit.  In retrospect, consider how that info paints how you now understand some of her past behavior... .

- She desperately hurried kids away from you for skating

- and got kids to her parents vs you

- she tried to cooerce you to state that you 'need' her and cannot live without her... .or something to that affect.

- etc

Maybe times she desperately took kids on outing also was a day you triggered some vibe that it would be THAT day for you to repeat your plan.

So, if I thought someone was plotting/or had plotted to kill me... .

Right NOW, is when I would be most afraid of them.  Right now, after revealing I know what they are up to.

Do you maybe think her revealing her thoughts has contributed to her current state?

[Sunfl0wer]

Scary cynnical thought... .

Ya know, even if she does come completely undone and needed to be committed... .  It could still be part of her script.  It could be that you drove her to that so no one would believe her that you were trying to kill her.  It happened just after she revealed you to the world.

Ok... .my mind needs some peaceful meditations or something because that was even jaded for me.

<sub>Not that I am saying she is premeditated... .

Just that she has convinced herself of something and really... .no matter the outcome... .can maintain hold of her delusion... .as almost all pathways still would allow her to continue her delusion no matter the outcome.</sub>

[Sunfl0wer]

Sorry to keep butting in but... .

Wait?  Are you two sharing a doc and creating it through the week?

Like in a way where you share stories... .then she adds... .and so on?

Wow!  If so, I think you need to reconsider the assignment if this is the beginning of a week long assignment... .could be a huge psychosis coming?  Maybe you need to consider explaining to MC via copied email that the situation is escalating and you need to discuss before continuing to add to the document.

Hopefully I am misunderstanding this!  Please correct!

(My last comment was not so serious... .  Yet... .now I worry!)

[formflier]

 

Yep, all three of us are sharing a doc.  I am periodically printing to pdf a copy so if she tries to go back and change it there are change records, in addition to google docs.

She went through the entire 17 pages and added 5 pages of comments.

From the perspective of someone "peeking" inside her mind, this is priceless stuff.

Just got done reading it, wow, she admitted to calling me names, but claimed to be trying to make a joke.  You guys remember me leaving the restaurant. 

She admits to saying no when I asked her to turn down the TV.  She admits to glaring at me when I asked for a conversation.  Wait, I should be "honest".  She admits to "looking" at me for a while, but assures the counselor she as not glaring.

She is now commonly referring to God as her "Bestie".  (hmm, this is new.)

Couple things ticked me off some, I'm good, will keep mouth shut.

Yeah, a meltdown could be coming.  Chips will go, where they go.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Ok, so if your doctor perscribed a med, and then it had side affects... .You typically discontinue then contact the doctor... .maybe.

Is the MC reviewing this daily?  Will he grasp the 'side affects' of what is currently happening?

Is there a point that you feel you would need to discontinue and wait for MC advisement? 

[formflier]

 

OK, this stuck out to me as showing how self centered and lacking empathy she is.  The story is part of an explanation of how we dealt with noise before.  Basically we set up TV and sources of noise to be as far a straight line distance from my head as possible.

from my story

So, TV noise would be in basement and against the south wall of the house and my head would be on the main level (one up) and against the north wall of the house.  This represented the farthest straight line distance possible between my head and source of noise.  This was also the same setup we used in our house in North Carolina.  (TV on main level there, I slept on second deck).

end from my story

quote is from FF wife

And still came down to the living room to complain he could hear the tv even though it was turned down. As if his disability should be something the rest of us have to be affected by but allen should not have to be inconvenienced by it…

OK, here comes pissed off (and likely self-righteous FF).  Sorry, shaking a bit as I type, maybe I'm not so ok.

So, I raised my hand and volunteered to serve.  I knew it could be hard.  It was.  There were also some of the best times of my life spent with my fellow squadron mates.  Men I loved and would have laid down my life for (several times thought I was going to, still not quite sure how I safely got the airplane on deck).  I can still hear the sounds of men screaming on the intercom as they battled fire and I hurried to get on deck before the hydraulics let loose (no hyds, no control).   I've hugged widows of fellow squadron mates and told them I loved flying with them, looked at kids that will forever miss their Dad.

My wife gets all dressed up for 4th of July, waives flags and puts on a good show.  We live in a house with a VA mortgage.  At 100% disability we get thousands of dollars per month in compensation because my body is busted and is not going to get better.  Oh yeah, mrs FF doesn't mind spending that money,

Listen, it's a pain to live with me, to live wit a busted up veteran.  But for her to type out that the rest of us should be inconvenienced but I should not be  or whatever the hell she typed up there.

She has a choice to walk out the door whenever she wants.  I'm stuck in this body,

effe you Mrs FF,

I hope to God that somehow I can put this in proper perspective that it's the disorder talking and not "her".

She had the gall somewhere else to complain that I take 2-3 Jacuzzi baths per day.  What the heck?  Because I would rather manage my pain and arthritis with a minimum amount of meds.

Sigh,

Going for a walk, and then Jacuzzi bath,

FF

[formflier]

Ok, so if your doctor perscribed a med, and then it had side affects, You typically discontinue then contact the doctor, maybe.

Is the MC reviewing this daily?  Will he grasp the 'side affects' of what is currently happening?

Is there a point that you feel you would need to discontinue and wait for MC advisement? 

MC read the first installment this morning.  Said he will address further things in person on Monday.

I believe he is able to read second installment right now due to sharing privileges. 

I get what you are saying Sunflower, I do.

For now, I will continue and see what happens.  My "go bag" is ready.  I'm caught up on sleep.  Money and keys are in pocket.  Cell phone on charger, voice recorder on when she is home.

I got caught unprepared when she flipped out two months ago.  I'm ready (as I can be) for whatever.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I recall that her diminishing the affect of your service, yet reaping the benefits... . 

Is an area that triggers you.  Understandably so. Hugely invalidating to say the very least!

It also sounds as though you are keeping on top of needed self care.  Great!

However, even the best of us need reminders... .

Continue to keep up with the self care. 

Continue to watch your own triggers and stay away until you have the trigger calm.

Now would be a convienient time for her to trigger you, push a button, PTSD button or otherwise just to 'prove' her point... .just to replay her script of FF is the man who has intentions to kill me (or is crazy, or is out of control, or is emotionally hyper responsive, etc)... .only God can save me.

If she is coming undone... .  You cannot really be 'allowed' to be triggered, at least not in her presense.

Ok... .yea, Soap box done!  Stay well!

[Grey Kitty]

Time for an emergency call to the MC.

This process putting down the "he said" and "she said" version of these incidents is VERY dangerous for your marriage.

Your wife's mood is getting worse. (And you know it. I saw your list of precautions)

Your mood isn't doing all that well, although you are coping far better than she is. (Saw how triggered you were when she questioned your PTSD)

The MC is asking the two of you to do something that is likely to get the police called in for a domestic violence incident, the way things are going.

HE NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING.

He needs to know ASAP!

Call him immediately, and let him know what is going on.

I'd strongly suggest you not tell him about the precautions you are taking--you don't want your wife to know about them, and he may not have good reason to keep them under confidence. Even if he suggests something of the sort, I'd equivocate and say that you'll think about it.

[KateCat]

Has the marriage counselor read the documents in any detail yet? I too think he needs that "heads up" from you, because it seems unlikely he would want this crisis situation to continue for your family for an entire week.

[flourdust]

I think it's common for marriage counselors to give homework, and to ask partners to fill out surveys or tests.

But I have never heard of any counselor asking a high-conflict couple to engage in a real-time text battle over describing their fights with each other. This is like he looked at Internet comment threads and said, "Hmm, this looks like a great way to get people to come together and find common ground!"

I think this is not just a bad idea, it's a dangerous one.

[formflier]

 

The document has been finished by my wife.

rc

I am not going to release the "other half" (basically I sent her about half of the 20-25 incidents so she could start her comments, I was working on the rest), without specific direction from the counselor.

I sent an email to the counselor and gave him a heads up about the ideations of my wife about me wanting to kill her.

I will ask for specific direction about next steps.

Oddly enough, she was calm tonight (after a weird afternoon) and we went to the church fitness center and went swimming with family.  Had a great time.

The good news: I guess, she was in full display in her document.  Mocked me, my dad, sent me some texts where it appears she is mocking me for being Godly (treading close to the line of taking the Lords name in vain)

She talked about things from years ago like they happened yesterday.

In many cases she just out and out fessed up that, yeah, I did that,

So she basically validated my point of view that I was sailing along, fat dumb and happy, she came home, got mad, yelled, ordered kids in van.  Then the story changes that she had remorse and invited the oldest two kids (this was the "original" incident two months ago) and that the child she had call was at fault for not letting her know that I asked if I could come.  Had he told her, "of course he would have been welcome, "

She completely agrees that later than night I came out and asked her to turn down the TV and she said "No".  She agrees that I asked for a conversation and she just stared at me, no speaking.  Yet believes (actually wrote this), that I went to the hotel for the purpose of "making her think I was going to be with a woman" (not exact quote, but close enough.

So, the counselors last observation from the last session was that I believed that I was "going along just fine and then my wife went off the deep end on me and at some point I reacted badly to that, "  (again, not exact quote, but really close"

I said, "Yes, that is my experience, "

There is also a place in there where she describes me as yelling at her and her Dad "like all the other times" or some such thing.  I have crystal clear recording of that (it was the "sugar ray" incident where FIL did the boxer thing in front of me.

She admits to calling S15 into the room and forcing him to "testify" against me, seems remorseful for a second and then justifies it by saying that she hoped it would open my Dad's eyes so he would "turn me over his knee".  (I'm chuckling as I read this, I guess that is better than crying.

She admits to getting an email I sent to a therapist and forwarding it to S15 and several members of her family.  She says she asked them to write the therapist to "open the therapists" eyes to my lies.

If you remember I did brief description to give T a heads up, asked for a phone call, basically said I didn't know What the heck was going on, but needed advice on what to do in order to not make things worse.

I could go on and on,

So, on the one hand, I'll give this guy kudos for getting to the heart of the matter quickly.  He said he was going to because of our history.  

There is a real danger of going too far, too fast.

I guess, my attitude right now is that this will either work really well, or splatter everywhere.

She directly said in the paper that if he thought (the being the counselor) "that it was her" that he give her extra work to do, and if "it was FF" that he give me extra to do.

Oh, yeah, she admits to unlocking the door and coming in the room when I was trying to get away from her.  Offers no explanations but claims she didn't pursue me after that.

Priceless stuff,

FF

[GaGrl]

FF, did you give this T a heads-up that this is a high-conflict relationship? I'm assuming so.

[formflier]

FF, did you give this T a heads-up that this is a high-conflict relationship? I'm assuming so.

Yep, we both did during the first meeting. 

Part of me says this is along the lines of a Dr wanting to see the problem or "see how bad" before figuring a treatment plan. 

Monday will be session 3 (or perhaps 4), too tired and no coffee yet to have energy to go look it up.

FF