Spartan Life Coach - Another good resource

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I found this on Youtube. He's talking about Narcissists and he's selling a course or two to be fair, but I've found his stuff really enlightening and his style very straight talking. Essentially he is a therapist who went through his own Narcissistic nightmare, although he said in one video his ex actually fits BPD better, he's since realised.

He has a lot of good things to say. I haven't bought the course, but the Youtube stuff has been very interesting and he has got me thinking in a bit more of a proactive rather than victim mentality.

I'm determined to move forward, get out the rut etc. This guy seems very clued up. This video is especially useful for those with cruel and sadistic exes, or current relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WtoFrlQRk

[Frustratedbloke]

I found this on Youtube. He's talking about Narcissists and he's selling a course or two to be fair, but I've found his stuff really enlightening and his style very straight talking. Essentially he is a therapist who went through his own Narcissistic nightmare, although he said in one video his ex actually fits BPD better, he's since realised.

He has a lot of good things to say. I haven't bought the course, but the Youtube stuff has been very interesting and he has got me thinking in a bit more of a proactive rather than victim mentality.

I'm determined to move forward, get out the rut etc. This guy seems very clued up. This video is especially useful for those with cruel and sadistic exes, or current relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WtoFrlQRk

[Jox]

I found interesting the concept predator - victim, but in BPD scenario. It never occurred to me to analyze our roles, by asking me a question: - Who has the power, who has the upper hand?

Paradoxically, I asked myself this type of questions, just now watching this video, it never occurred to me to ask it in past 14 years. The answer is the BPD, I am concluding now, and I just left the relationship. Their splitting rule over anything, and we the non do everything and anyting not to trigger it. So we shrink our bounderies, slowly cut outsiders out of our life, stop the activities, and you fill the blanks of how we actually go under, thinking we are in charge.

Because we are in charge of dayly life, thier bank accounts and passwords, their phobia of conflict so we put ourself talking on their behalf... .And thus we think we are superior.

Now I think that in my case I was a servant that payed money for the job I never applied for.

[Frustratedbloke]

Yes it's interesting and the concept of consent. If we just say no we do not consent to this then the whole game stops. We may have to face losing them, but if we do then did they ever deserve us? I like his style, he's very straight talking and he has a lot of other good videos up. He has been through it himself and it shows.

[troisette]

I watched it - it's interesting stuff FrustratedBloke. I like the concept of empowering ourselves rather than feeling like victims. Had a couple of aha moments just while watching the video.

My ex, BPD with narcissistic traits, hangs out with a group of people who I've always found a bit odd. They work on the principle of mutual reinforcement "I tell you you are wonderful, you tell me I am wonderful and we can all believe we are wonderful." I found them non-wonderful. Just average, although I was fed the belief, by them that they were special glitterati. I was confused because I found them mostly boring but thought the problem was mine.

After my split and I could see more clearly, I began to wonder if they were a group of narcissists. And then thought I was paranoid, seeing NPD or BPD behind every tree. I now think they probably are, that they are giving each other supply but when I look on as an outsider, having watched that video, I can see the dynamics very clearly. And why ex went bananas when I said I didn't understand why they thought they we so special, because they are just average, albeit immature people!

So I'll be watching more of his videos and trusting more in my own instinct. Thanks for the post. Great stuff, as with the hypno.

[HarleypsychRN]

I found the information helpful and very much liked his approach and delivery.

[Frustratedbloke]

Troisette we definitely have a few things in common My ex doesn't have friends, but has a sister that is even worse than her... .

They'd hang out together, tell each other they were too good for everyone, ignoring the fact that her sister got deliberately pregnant to trap a man, cannot hold a job for more than three days and thinks she's a model when in fact she looks like a mentally handicapped lizard and the only person to ever 'do a shoot' with her, was her ex boyfriend.

She has money for hair extensions, nails and clothes, but has never bought a drink when we're out, even for herself, is a total parasite and acts like a child in an adult's body. Every time I saw her she told me she wants presents, even though she never spent one brass penny on me.

So much talk about being a 'classy lady' when the behaviour is anything but. And at its worst, they were bullies, a horrible tag team who undermined my confidence and even attacked my character in sustained bursts.

If I met them now, they wouldn't get five minutes of my time, I must have been really grateful for the attention back then... .

[Frustratedbloke]

Another two really interesting videos, I think this stuff really does apply to the more aggressive BPD just as well, and there is serious overlap between the two concepts:

20 signs you're with a covert narcissist, takes a few minutes to get going but there's good info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M

Red flags of a narcissistic relationship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YUkv86n1Hc

[troisette]

Glad to see his approach is working FrustratedBloke:

"If I met them now, they wouldn't get five minutes of my time, I must have been really grateful for the attention back then... ."

Feels better than being a victim doesn't it?  

I'm practising, can already feel my datum point shifting... .

Keep them  coming, please!

[Frustratedbloke]

The funny thing is I did walk away from this girl in the early days, it was kind of dumb pride that brought me back. I got so badly smashed the first time that I have fought tooth and nail to take back every inch of ground I gave to her.

I was dumb, I thought if I could get that respect back, we'd have an equal relationship. I was kidding myself, I thought if I was the man she wanted me to be then everything would be cool.

The funny thing is that as soon as I was genuinely looking her in the eye and backing her down like a dog, she ran away and that was it.

I met her when I was seriously screwed up, I had just lost 50K and was living a nightmare. That is the man she wanted me to be, when I got back to close to my actual form she couldn't control me and she literally disappeared.

It was a worthwhile journey in the end, maybe she lit a fire, but I'm determined to get over her very quickly and not encounter another one of these harpees. If I can help someone else with what I've found along the way, awesome.

We all know there were red flags, mine couldn't look me in the eye for the first three dates and bought her sisters with her. But now, I'm going to filter out potential girlfriends much more carefully.

[WoundedBibi]

I was in a bad place emotionally too when my ex zoomed in on me. Like he could feel it. Before then he had never really noticed me. Not in that way. He found my communication style very direct & strong before then "... and this is how it is going to be" and I guess my strong me did not turn him on. Once I felt loved and became stronger again, that strong side reappeared and he probably felt out of control. Or as he hissed at me with this face full of rage "... and it's not to my liking!" about a situation I'm still wondering about. I was talking at the pub with another male colleague, just having fun, joking around. Was I talking too loud? Laughing instead of chuckling (no laughing allowed... )? Showing too much cleavage? Was it because it was a guy? I still don't know. I never will. But it is clear for me it was about control.

I walked away too. And I was ok with that. I should have never let him suck me back in. That's when the drama really started. But perhaps that had to do with control too, so he could turn me down and say "I can never have a relationship. Besides you don't know what love is anyway". That way he had the upperhand. Control.

I need to look at these videos 

[Frustratedbloke]

They do like wounded animals, just like predators picking the weak one off the herd. They don't know they're doing it, we think they've spotted potential, but it's instinct to them. That said, the predator prey thing isn't healthy, maybe it's better to think of a parasite attaching itself to an injured host. It's more accurate... .

Watch the videos, there's a lot of them, about People Pleaser syndrome. We might not think it, but we have all done this at some point to accommodate these fruit loops. If we hadn't, they'd have walked away on day one because we had nothing to give them.

[WoundedBibi]

Very true... I do think most of us NONs here are wounded too and as much as our vulnerability attracts them, their vulnerability attracts us. We either want to take care of them or we feel we finally found someone who understands our wounds (as I think they do too) or both. I will watch them    I still want to look at and try the hypno thing that was posted earlier. Not that I have problems falling asleep but some said it helped in letting go.

[once removed]

the title of the video is "how to take revenge on a narcissist".

he raises an interesting question about the morality of taking revenge; i didnt hear him make the moral, spiritual, practical, or even selfish case for taking revenge.

his idea of discouraging a victim mentality is to "flip the script and see yourself as the predator (and your ex as prey) and that you should actively engage in finding ways to provoke, to gaslight, and to emotionally manipulate the narcissist."

why? are these healthy or productive ways to navigate challenging personalities in our lives? wouldnt strong and sound boundaries be preferable to viewing others or ourselves as predator or prey?

he goes on to recommend this as a court strategy, with the idea being to expose and provoke the narcissist and cause them to erupt. let me assure you this would not play well in front of a judge.

the author suggests that his ideas will only work if youre dealing with a "true" narcissist. thats convenient; you need only provoke someone in order to diagnose them with a personality disorder.

the vast majority of us arrive here with unique, deep wounds to our egos. i know i did. it was shattering that someone who had been so dependent upon me, so needy and clingy, could cheat on me, discard me, move immediately into another relationship and then steal from me. it was terrifying too. i didnt feel i could trust myself, let alone anyone else. it took a long time and a lot of work to regain my self esteem, my confidence, my sense of self. revenge was never going to accomplish that, although i did use my anger in my detachment process.

using language like "predators, parasites, harpees, fruit loops, looks like a mentally handicapped lizard" only serves to paint black someone that we once all cared for, deeply. its not being honest with ourselves.

now we are all here, detaching, seeking support, and nursing our wounds. our relationships are over. is the lesson we want to walk away with that we should dig down and fight even harder with the mentally ill or other challenging personalities?

its wise advice not to see ourselves as victims. the need for revenge is a victim mentality. im not sure we should take the leap to being the aggressors.

we can all move From Victim to Survivor to Thriver

[steelwork]

I'm so glad you chimed in, Once Removed. I feel the same way. I actually watched the whole thing, waiting for the moment when he'd pull it all together into a healthy perspective-taking lesson, but to me he just seems like another angry guy who confuses narcissism with psychopathy.

[Frustratedbloke]

I don't feel the need to take revenge at all, not in that sense.

But I think it is massively healthy to reframe this from I've been attacked by a superior being to I have been taken for a ride by a childish, weak, pathetic little girl. This is helping me do that. If it does it for someone else, then I'm happy with that.

He does say the best revenge is living well and if you look through some of his other stuff there is a lot of very useful info on setting boundaries, knowing when someone isn't being honest, trusting your instinct, stuff that would have saved a good number of us from being here discussing it in the first place

Everyone can have an opinion on everything, that's cool, but I'm not going to defend them and say they're lovely people when they're not. Without a certain level of anger, we'd still be under the cosh.

[Frustratedbloke]

I think you might have misunderstood the bit about seeing yourself as the predator, too, he's saying get inside their mind and see what they're doing to you, see that they're pushing buttons and that's all they are. When you see that, you won't fall victim to the mindgames and you will understand exactly what is happening.

He actually never makes a plot to take revenge, it's all about you getting yourself better. It's just a catchy title I think, and probably something a lot of people have Googled... .

[WoundedBibi]

Ehmmm... .If it's about revenge, I'm not so sure I want to watch them. Revenge is not who or how I am (apart from the odd angry moment in which I fantasize about doing something stupid) and gets me nowhere as revenge is still about him and not me moving forward. Besides I don't know if my ex is uBPD with NPD traits or uNPD with BPD traits. Are there any 'pure' narcists anyway?

And I'm not taking my ex to court. Last thing I would do, he's a lawyer...

[steelwork]

What's "cosh"?  I never heard that term--British English? (I'm American.)

If this way of framing helps, great. The thing is, I find predator/prey perspective foreign and harsh. When my ex was raving at me, which of course was  after he'd gotten together with someone else, he said, "If you think you're some kind of a victim you can go f yourself."

But I had not thought in terms of victims and was shocked to learn that he had!

See, it was a projection. He felt like a victim, which caused him shame. So he attacked me on the assumption that I'd scream victim. But I did not, which confused and angered him more.

How would it be to just drop the idea of predator/prey entirely?

[Frustratedbloke]

It's really not about revenge, it's a very clearly described way of seeing through the FOG and discussing their actual motives for doing what they do and seeing them for what they are. It's a way to look down on them, rather than be in awe of them, which is what we should be doing.

The test thing would be relevant for someone stuck in the FOG right now, dealing with a partner where they're not sure what way is up or down. I see it has a place in there, but for us the rest of it is more important.

I found it helpful, if others do then great, if not then no worries.

Also I didn't say my ex looked like a mentally handicapped lizard. Her sister did. I always felt her sister was toxic, troubled and a really unpleasant person. So there's no double standards or painting black there, she was just a real pain from day one.

And under the cosh is a phrase that means you'd still be getting hammered flat if you didn't have any anger. A cosh is an old weapon, like a club.

The predator/prey is a good way of thinking about why they act the way they do, it's instinctive, they don't know why but they just do it. Beyond that, think of them any way you want.

[steelwork]

I think you might have misunderstood the bit about seeing yourself as the predator, too, he's saying get inside their mind and see what they're doing to you, see that they're pushing buttons and that's all they are. When you see that, you won't fall victim to the mindgames and you will understand exactly what is happening.

This does not seem true to me--that pretending to be a predetor will give you insight. Unless you're dealing with a psychopath, maybe.

[steelwork]

I think what bothers me is the idea of a zero-sum game. If you felt abused or controlled, the remedy is to make youself into the aggressor. But I think you can stop feeling like a victim just as well walking away from the idea of victimhood. It's so much more complicated than that, imho.

Thanks for "under the cosh"!

[Frustratedbloke]

Hmmm, let me explain. He is talking to you and me, people that have been the victim. He is saying put yourself in the mindset, try and understand how they think, see what they are through their eyes, and it won't happen to you again.

He's saying this is alien thinking to people like us, we just don't consider it. But if we see that people do exist like that, there are people that literally size people up to see what buttons they can push and how they can get a reaction, the next time it happens we will be fully aware of what is going on and we will never fall for it again.

He even says, doing this won't turn you into one of them, it won't make you evil, you don't think like this, but just running this exercise in your head, seeing that people do think like that, and we have all met them, will stop you falling for the tricks next time around.

There is no 'become the predator', just 'see the world through their eyes for a moment, and this stuff will literally never happen again'. It's a visual exercise for stop being the victim, which in my mind is quite a loose term, this helps solidify it to something stronger.

I think it would be straightforward for people here that this stuff could save you a lot of grief and pain.

[once removed]

There is no 'become the predator', just 'see the world through their eyes for a moment, and this stuff will literally never happen again'.

he encourages you to provoke, to say to, and show the narcissist that they are "not special" (to push buttons right back)

understanding someone elses perspective is a valuable skill, which good communication skills, and good boundaries can build on.

we dont need to look down on anyone in order to do that, there is a middle ground between being in awe of someone and looking down on them.

[steelwork]

Well, he slips around a little in the message of whether you're supposed to actually act the predator, but I do get that he's mainly promoting a thought experiment.

I think where we differ is:

1. The personality type he's describing sounds more like a psychopath than a narcissist.

2. We don't have to buy into this black and white thinking. We can regain our self-esteem by working on ourselves. This is not, as he says, baloney or moral relativism. It's a process of casting off our own defenses, forgiving ourselves, addressing our own problems. I heartily disagree with his statement that a therapist who puts the focus on you is a bad therapist.

[Frustratedbloke]

Maybe we have to agree to disagree on this one, but I don't see why I should have to preserve a special level of respect for someone that has trampled my boundaries, acted dishonestly, manipulated me and taken advantage wherever humanly possible.

I think seeing them for what they are, and not respecting it, is a healthy part of the process. I don't think it's humanly possible to go from being more or less abused to that middle ground right away. When I fought back I found myself pushing the buttons, doing exactly this stuff, to show that I wasn't beaten.

It made them run away, as I said. I don't really know if we're disagreeing at all, but healthy boundaries etc sometimes involves an element of pushing back and a little fight, or the boundary surely gets set way too far back.

[steelwork]

I bet we agree on a lot. I absolutely don't think you need to preserve a special level of respect for your ex!

[once removed]

I don't see why I should have to preserve a special level of respect for someone that has trampled my boundaries, acted dishonestly, manipulated me and taken advantage wherever humanly possible.

you dont. you should preserve a special level of respect for yourself and not allow someone to trample your boundaries, manipulate you, or take advantage of you. in the future, of course.

do you think some of the anger comes from allowing that? thats been the case for me plenty of times.

I think seeing them for what they are, and not respecting it, is a healthy part of the process. I don't think it's humanly possible to go from being more or less abused to that middle ground right away. When I fought back I found myself pushing the buttons, doing exactly this stuff, to show that I wasn't beaten.

its probably not humanly possible and i wouldnt suggest anyone get to that point over night. only to be self aware about the anger. i put pen to paper and i wrote some pretty nasty things about my ex. some of it stuff i truly believe, although even that was colored in extreme anger, most i didnt believe or barely believed (and didnt ring true with how id felt about her during the relationship) but all stuff i needed to tell myself at the time. seeing them for who (not what) they are includes remembering that they are human beings that we cared a great deal for, however we feel right now. i think the goal is squaring the two, not shifting in extremes.

ask yourself in time, Frustratedbloke, who you were trying to show that you werent beaten.

It made them run away, as I said. I don't really know if we're disagreeing at all, but healthy boundaries etc sometimes involves an element of pushing back and a little fight, or the boundary surely gets set way too far back.

not necessarily. the great thing about boundaries is that you dont have to apologize for them, and they are uniquely yours. sometimes boundaries can be too rigid, but no one can tell you that theyre "wrong". if someone rails against your boundaries, youve said your piece, stand by it, and let the other person spin if thats their choice. you dont have to up the ante and make them run away.

i understand the process Frustratedbloke, ive felt the pain, the anger, and at the time i leaned into whatever would soothe it, sometimes i even took some good stuff from messages id cringe at now. as i turned the focus to myself, i saw that i was going to experience all sorts of conflicting beliefs about myself, my relationship, and my ex, all of it useful to examine, all of it processing, but most of it temporary.

[eeks]

Hi frustratedbloke,

In terms of reclaiming one's power, this book seems helpful from the preview.  To Be A Man by Robert Augustus Masters, he talks about how men can embrace their emotions and have rewarding relationships with women without needing to turn into soft, "sensitive New Age guys".  What do you think?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0x_gBQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

eeks

[Frustratedbloke]

I found Corey Wayne quite good and have been reading his stuff since it went a bit south with her the first time. It's How to be a 3% Man, I quite like that one. But I'll have a look at your recommendation!

[troisette]

Much of the video is about reframing and I think that doing so can only be helpful for someone who's been involved with a personality disordered individual.

Some of the language, and the title, is populist - but that doesn't affect a fundamentally sound message - to re-empower oneself after critical involvement with an NPD or BPD person.

If you glance at the current thread titles on this section of the board, it can be seen that the majority of them are posted from a "victim" stance, often implying self-perceived helplessness.