uBPDgf broke up - She is scared of me and unreasonable

[GGG]

Hello,

I posted a while ago about a way to fix the relationship with my  ex uBPDgf. Haven't managed to get any improvement, but the other way around.

While I gave her space, time, respected her and whatever u can ask, she kept getting far from me and she's about (if not already) to re-engage in a long distance R/s with the old bf who dumped her and who actually triggered the fight that led to the breakup

A couple of days ago I went to see her after 3 weeks of NC and some days of texting, and after a little talk she said that she wants me out of her life and that she never thinks of me.

A little later, she texted on whatsapp and started talking, she soon pointed that I had to let her go, and without much sense the conversation escalated into something painful and abusive with she saying that I'm crazy, and that she is afraid of me. I'm pretty sure she gets angry and overwhelmed by the sense of failiure she sees through me.

Situation looks pretty much unable to be fixed at all but I wanted to ask if anybody would have a suggestion on a way to get a way to start the process of splitting white, cause the whole thing is an actual mess right now.

She quit her mood estabilizer medication(escitalopram) 10 days before the breakup, and since then she's been absolutely out of her mind.

I told her about her BPD and she says she's fine but she's absolutely not.

I am going to alanon and doing therapy and I'm not in the place I was months ago, but I still care and would like to find ways to build a relation with her, so I wanted to ask for your advise.

Please, don't tell me things like move on, go away, etc... that we all know and I don't need to write a post to know it.

Thanks,

GGG

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[C.Stein]

Situation looks pretty much unable to be fixed at all but I wanted to ask if anybody would have a suggestion on a way to get a way to start the process of splitting white, cause the whole thing is an actual mess right now.

Hey GGG.  

Man, it is so incredibly hard and painful watching someone you love slip away and feeling so powerless to do anything about it.  As much as you might not want to hear it, the truth is there is nothing you can do that will get her to paint you white or make her love you.  This is something she has to do on her own and you have to be prepared she may never "come around".  If she does suffer from BPD then she is the only one who can do something about it.  

In the meantime it is good you are working on yourself because that is something you can control.   Give her the space she needs but don't necessarily disappear from her life altogether.  Educate yourself on the disorder and how to be in a relationship with a borderline.  There is a lot of excellent information on this site to point you in the right direction.  Learn how to validate her without enabling or JADEing.

This is a good place to start.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

[GGG]

Thanks for your reply.

I've gone through them and tried to apply it. Today I just did it again after she threatened and I just got a "f*** off" as an answer... .

I really can't understand what the hell is going on...

[once removed]

hi GGG 

i understand this is all very confusing and painful. C Stein gave you great advice. right now, acting is making things worse. things cant improve unless/until you stop the bleeding. it sounds like that is going to require space for the both of you.

I've gone through them and tried to apply it. Today I just did it again after she threatened and I just got a "f*** off" as an answer... .

can you elaborate on this exchange? what did you apply? what was the basis for engaging her?

[GGG]

I tried validating herself and her feelings of fear and tried to ask her to be calmed cause I needed to go pick up some stuff from her place and she did not want me to go.

Her answer was a plain "f*** off"

[JQ]

Hello GGG,

Since you only have about 5 post here let me welcome you to the group ... .I'm glad you found this site ... .here no one will judge you because some are or some were where you've been where you've been.  Being in a relationship with someone who has BPD alone has to be one of the most difficult challenges in a NON's life. Trying to apply a logical approach to resolve issues with someone who has BPD is futile as you've are coming to learn.  I'm glad to hear that you've started some therapy in addition to ALANON ... .but it's only part of the whole picture.  I would encourage you to read the references at the top of the page and to the right of the page to learn more about BPD and EVERYTHING that comes with it if you continue to want to be in a relationship with someone with BPD. Your T should be very well versed in BPD and codependent relationships and assisting you sort out your feelings, frustrations, emotions, anxiety ... .and above all ... .be brutally honest with you when it's needed.

You said, "I wanted to ask if anybody would have a suggestion on a way to get a way to start the process of splitting white, cause the whole thing is an actual mess right now."  Just as you can't force or manipulate someone into falling in love with you ... .the same can be said about trying to force or manipulate someone with BPD to paint you white. It just doesn't happen and you're therapist should have told you this already.  

You also said, "She quit her mood stabilizer medication(escitalopram) 10 days before the breakup, and since then she's been absolutely out of her mind."  You can't force someone to take their meds if they don't want to and in fact its not advisable to ask a BPD if they've taken their meds if they're in a rage or some other type of BPD behavior.  My experience when I was dating my BPD was that the meds made her gain weight which was another factor in an already damaged sense of self.  If you ask them about taking their meds, they will come back with something similar saying something like, "You are trying to control me" or "I don't like the way they make me feel".  Yes in some cases meds do help with mood stabilization as in your case ... .they helped my exBPD too ... .but I couldn't force her to continue them no matter how I or her therapist explained to her how much they were helping.

You also said, "I told her about her BPD and she says she's fine but a absolutely not".  No one wants to believe they have a Cluster B mental illness much less any other type of mental defect.  My exBPDgf told me story after story of how her ex-husband would say, "oh she's "sick" again" when she would exhibit bad & or unacceptable behavior ... .at which point it would just throw gas on the fire of her rages.

I nor anyone here can or would tell you what to do in your journey of self discovery and learning about BPD.  BPD is a very serious Cluster B Mental illness that destroys not only that individuals life but the lives affected by it that the BPD is close to ... .mothers/fathers/spouses/kids/friends ... .they're all affected by it for caring about the person.  

BPD will continue to test your limits on all levels.  I know just how hard it's has to be to try and make sense of it all and the toll it's taking on you ... .mind, body & soul. I know you're tired, mentally & physically exhausted and are looking for some help, some guidance ... .you're looking for a hand to help you up. You've come to the right place.

It's hard to understand how & what BPD does to people ... .not only to themselves but the loved ones that are collateral damage ... .

Borderline personality disorder is one of the most contentious of all the personality disorders. Evidence of structural and functional deficit in brain areas central to regulation, attention and self-control, and executive function have been described in BPD. Whatever your intention is you'll need to learn a whole new language of BPD such as gas lighting, splitting, painted black, painted white, triangulation, engulfment, abandonment, invalidation, deregulation, projection, shaming, triggering and the list goes on. The references to the right of the page can help you understand her behaviors and assist with all things BPD. I would also encourage you to read books like, "stop walking on eggshells", " I hate you ... .don't leave me" and "the Human Magnet Syndrome" ... .which you should be able to find at your local library or online.

You describe some of the basic behavior of BPD in your short post.   I'm sure you've seen her rage, or throw temper tantrums like a 3 yr old toddler and if you look at past events of hers I imagine you can see similar behavior traits of a 3 yr old. That's common ... .you're going to have to remain the adult in the relationship if you stay.  Just as a 3 yr old will test your limits in the grocery store before you enforce your boundaries of "don't touch" so it will be the same with your BPD. She feels as if she needs to be in control of any situation and if you step up and try to wrestle "control" from her then you will see the rage of a toddler unleash as you have hinted at.  

NOTHING about BPD has or WILL makes logical sense to you ... .or anyone of us for that matter.  But you'll learn all of that on your journey ... .it's why you should seek out a therapist with a lot of BPD experience to assist you on your journey ... .to guide you on your journey of self discovery. You can't change someone with BPD ... .but you can learn about yourself on your journey which is the most important part.  

Like most of those on this sight we've come to learn we are a codependent ... .we are the Knight in Amor protecting those who can't protect themselves. We are the Sheriff in the White hat riding in to save the day. We are the perfectionist who work so very hard to make things right so that we can live a happy life ... .because if everything is right with our BPD s/o ... .then there will be no reason to rage ... .there will be no reason for Mr. Hyde to come out.  The good news is ... .that once we're self aware of  our behavior we can learn and adjust it ... .to take care of ourselves and our needs. You'll learn about the 51% rule ... .it's ok to give of yourself to someone else ... .but you should keep 51% of your energy to making yourself happy in life. If your giving more the 51% of yourself in any relationship ... .eventually you'll run out of energy ... .you'll be tired ... .exhausted ... .you've given everything you have ... .mind, body & soul ... .and it's hard to recover from. From the sounds of things that's where you currently are ... .as promised ... .someone will be here to hold out a hand to help you up ... .and dust you off ... .straighten you up ... .now it's up to you to continue your journey ... .we can't and won't tell you what to do ... .but we will support you in whatever direction you want to go.  

I just want to give you some additional information on what BPD is defined as ... .you might already have this information ... .but for some who don't and are reading this post ... .

There are numerous studies, universities, professors, Ph.d's, MDs, therapist that have studied this question for decades. BPD is a VERY serious Cluster B mental illness with numerous studies to indicate that is in deed a genetic, physical defects within the brain coupled with environmental conditions that are responsible for BPD. BPD can also be co-diagnosed with other mental / behavioral illnesses such as NPD for example.  There are MD, Ph.d's that are trying to categorize BPD in the Cluster A mental illness category that includes paranoid personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder.

The following is in part a study from Harvard Medical School which indicates an underlying abnormality of the brain structure or function resulting in a significant disability.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a severe mental illness seen in approximately 20% of inpatient and outpatient clinical samples and between 1.2% and 5.9% of the general population and can co-occur with other disorders.

BPD is believed to emerge from an interaction between genes and environment. The major twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in diagnostic concordance. This concordance rate is similar to that found in bipolar disorder and stronger than rates for depression or anxiety. Functional MRI studies of BPD patients show abnormalities in the amygdala (an almond-sized and shaped brain structure linked with a person's mental and emotional state) and the prefrontal cortex (a part of the brain associated with planning, reasoning, solving problems and regulating thoughts, feelings and behaviors). A major BPD twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in BPD.

A core feature of BPD is self-destructive behavior, including bingeing and purging, substance abuse, risky sexual behavior, reckless driving and spending, and self-injury. In the short term, these behaviors attempt to regulate out-of-control emotions, but the interpersonal consequences further impair troubled relationships.

Recent data link BPD to both structural and physiological brain abnormalities. Volumetric studies using MRI consistently show decreased volumes in the hippocampus and amygdala of persons with BPD. Functional MRI studies using standardized tests have demonstrated differences in brain areas and functioning between people with BPD and controls. Using evoked emotional response, MRI differentiated BPD from controls with differences appearing in the amygdala, anterior cingulate and prefrontal cortex. This research suggests that both the affective instability and the interpersonal hypersensitivity seen in BPD have their roots in the sensitivity of the brain's amygdala to negative emotions.  In the face of this increased amygdalae activation, persons with BPD demonstrate impaired self-regulatory function in the prefrontal cortex.

The findings from psychopharmacologic and other biologic treatment data, coupled with associated brain functioning findings, indicate that BPD is a biologically based disorder.  Based on this analysis, including BPD in the Massachusetts Parity Law as a "biologically-based disorder" is well founded.


There are several types of treatments that have several levels of "success" ... .success measured as limited MANAGEMENT of behavior from a chronic mental illness.  This study among others would indicate there is NO full recovery or "cure" to indicate that they get better.  Example, my exBPDgf (age north of 50) has seen Ph.d's, clinical physiologist & therapist off & on for more then 25 years. She continues to have severe behavioral conditions that include impulse control issues, risky sexual behavior, alcohol abuse, reckless spending, self-injury, personal relationship trouble with multiple boyfriends, 2 ex-husbands and other BPD behavior that we've all read about.  She's been on several different meds in addition to Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) focuses on the concept of mindfulness, or paying attention to the present emotion. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) can help people with BPD recognize and change both their beliefs and the ways they act that reflect inaccurate or negative opinions of themselves and others. Mentalization-based therapy (MBT) is a talk therapy that helps people identify and understand what others might be thinking and feeling.  Transference-focused therapy (TFP) is designed to help patients understand their emotions and interpersonal problems through the relationship between the patient and therapist in addition to mood stabilizers, anti-represents, anti-anxiety meds.

BPD is NOT like cancer that with surgery, chemo, radiation they "MIGHT" get better & after 5 years of no additional indications of cancer they are deemed "cured".  Evidence indicates BPD is at the gene level of the human body and physical abnormalities of the brain.  In the NON or codependent world we are in part a perfectionist ... .we want to "fix" everything to make everything better.  It was un-educated arrogant behavior on MY part to believe that I could "FIX" my exBPDgf with understanding, love, caring and wanting to help her ... .WHEN 25 plus years of professional psychiatric assistance & meds couldn't and still can't manage the mental illness.

As codependents we can & do get better at adjusting our behavior & learning what to look for when people are trying to take advantage of our good nature. We get better and identifying behavioral warnings of BPD and can steer clear of those r/s.  And with a little help from a good therapist helping us learn why we became codependent in the first place,  we can then live & share a life with someone who isn't mentally ill.

IF you want to continue to go down this road of trying to be with your exBPDgf ... .then ask yourself some of the following questions ... .and you don't have to tell us the answers ... .look yourself in the mirror because you're the one that has to make the choice and live with those choices ... .

Will she continue this behavior after we're married?

Do I always want to be the adult in this relationship knowing of her behavioral illness?

Am I strong enough to manage the challenges of a lifetime with someone who has this mental illness?

Will she be a good mother to my kids?

What are the chances of her passing the genetic mental illness down to my children?


we can't walk this journey for you ... .we can only tell you what has and more importantly what has NOT work for us ... .you have a lot to think about ... .a lot to learn ... .come back here as often as you need to ... .and as often as you WANT too ... .someone will always be here to give you the hand up you're looking for ... .you have a lot of homework to do ... .

J

[GGG]

JQ; I sincerely thank you for taking the time and empathy to write this. I sincerely appreciate it and I think I understand every point you describe.

I'll start by saying that just this morning I was able to see with my own eyes that she is back with this man.

The man that broke up with her nearly a year before we started dating, and whom she was so depressed and angry about that we could not talk about it during the whole 2 years of relationship and who indirectly triggered the fight that led to the breakup.

So in any case, my odds of getting back with her are close to 0% despite my wishes.

She does not know I saw him, and she keeps lying and saying she is and wants to be alone.

This being said, my thoughts about your post are:

Yeah, I am willing to accept the responsibilities of dating someone like her because the good things overweight the bad ones. She's a fine mum, and the whole break up helped me quit my weed addiction, and to find out about my codependency and I'm taking care of it (Al-anon (alcoholic mum), therapy) so I'm getting ready to embrace the changes that this will lead me to.

I did not know about the genetic side of the disorder and this is something really interesting and helpful to know. I'm myself diagnosed with ADHD, which has lately - during my current therapy - been put into question, since I may have BPD or another kind of Cluster B disorder instead so I'll have to look at it.

Regarding the meds, I never ever told her about them. She told me about it, and since I'm used to be around this situations, I'm quite good at managing them.

I told her about her BPD only 3 days ago while we were arguing cause I would not let her go (I went to her place to bring flowers) and she told me I was mentally ill, that she was scared of me.

She told me a year ago that she was NPD, and sent me a link saying "some day I will hurt you. When that happens, you will find your answers there". So I told her she was wrong about that, and that the right reason for her chronic emptiness was BPD. Her answer was "I don't have anything now".

I also know that I must build my own boundaries and learn to manage the reasons that led to the destruction of our relationship, as I mismanaged my emotions and problems and those clearly impacted in our living together.

So in summary: While I would be willing to get back together and I may keep my hopes for a while, I now know that any solution goes through healing myself first.

It is anyway quite unlikely that she would do something as going back with the ex who left to go back with her past ex.

I think that other dude doesn't really knows what he is getting into, cause they only dated 3 months and they live in different cities. So they'll have a long distance relationship at least for a while. It will make the relationship last longer maybe, but problems will emerge at some point.

Odds are as low as they can be, so I may just try to move on with the pain and find happiness somewhere else cause holding to that hope is one of the most unhealthy things I can think of.

The best thing I can do is do nothing, I'm afraid. And being as controlling as I am, this is such a challenge, so I've got job to do. I wonder if I should be there for her and her kid, or just disappear and let life follow its course. Unfortunately I really believe she's special and unique and the woman I want to get old with so I'm at a crossroad.

It would be helpful if someone knows of stories or a foundation to help me realise if I may have a chance to get her back someday.

I will be coming back to this forum for sure, as I've found help and peace, and since I'm very likely to be diagnosed with BPD as well (Still I don't think as severe as hers, cause she is behaving in really hardcore ways lately), I might find answers to questions I don't even have yet.

Thank you and every one on this community as it's been a constant source of relieve during very difficult times, and thank you JQ again for putting your time and expertise to help me.

G.

[C.Stein]

It would be helpful if someone knows of stories or a foundation to help me realise if I may have a chance to get her back someday.

No one will be able to give you the answer to this question, not even her.  She may cycle back around or she may not.  My ex threw me away like trash and never looked backed, nor do I suspect she ever will look back.  Many others experience some attempts to recycle with little to no success. 

The question you have to ask yourself (and answer) is are you going to wait around for a maybe?  Also consider when a recycle occurs many times the dysfunction of the relationship is even worse than it was previously and the time to the next discard is shorter.  I would think the safe bet is if she does not seek help for herself then the cycle will continue regardless of who it is with.

[livednlearned]

It would be helpful if someone knows of stories or a foundation to help me realise if I may have a chance to get her back someday.

Hi G,

I understand the desire for reassurance that the relationship can be restored.

Losing someone we love can generate abandonment depression and what some call "protest behaviors." Often, these behaviors can have the opposite effect because they are more about soothing ourselves (i.e. how we feel about losing our loved one) than putting ourselves in their shoes (i.e. she feels the need to end the relationship). This is probably the core function of what people call codependence -- focusing on someone else's behavior to avoid confronting the reality of our own pain.

Right now, she has made it clear she does not want to be with you, and as hard as it may be to hear this, it's probably in your best interests to figure out if there is anything you might be doing, or might have done, to contribute to that dynamic. People with BPD have labile emotions and may not cope in healthy ways -- that doesn't mean their feelings aren't valid.

I told her about her BPD only 3 days ago while we were arguing cause I would not let her go (I went to her place to bring flowers) and she told me I was mentally ill, that she was scared of me.

Were you physically not letting her go?

You definitely have a chance to learn skills that can mitigate problems in relationships. If it's her, or someone else, the skills you learn here and in therapy will help.

Not letting her go, bringing her flowers when she has ended the relationship, figuring out how to see the man she was with before you (if I'm understanding correctly) -- these are all behaviors that can be scary for someone with engulfment issues, if she has them. You mention that you are controlling, so this plus her certainty that she is done with you could be a perfect storm of conflict that gets fanned, narrowing your chances she will change her mind about you.

Saving a relationship is first and foremost about working on what you do, because often we cope with loss in ways that drive our partners away and tell them that despite what we say, we are more concerned with our own feelings than theirs.

[GGG]

I am definitely having a lot of problems of codependence, and also due the fact that she constantly lies to me, which makes harder to create a real image of what is going on. She has also been quite cruel in overall terms, but since I'm aware of the illness, I have to work twice as hard to not take it personally.

However, when I said let her go, I meant emotionally. I never ever threatened or have done any physical threat or gesture. I brought flowers after few weeks of no contact and other two of little texting and called on the phone first to avoid turning the situation into something violent. This was 3 days ago and yesterday she slept with her ex. I brought a very exclusive coffee and chocolate as well as a present for the kid. She accepted all the gifts and repeated that there is noone else in her life, yet I do know now it is not true.

And to figure about the ex with whom she is back now, it has been one of those destiny jokes, as I saw him while I was having breakfast in a bar a street away from her place, making time cause I needed to pick some stuff and she told me she was not home yet. It turned out she WAS home and with him, who went to pick up breakfast...

I've definitely pushed her further away since the breakup, and while I don't think I've done anything particularly out of line, she's got this engulfment issues u talk about and everything led to her being totally upset with me and she has not even allowed me to see her kid cause she says I'm emotionally unstable.

In any way, things are settled now. I have nothing to do rather than pick up my pieces and focus on myself, but I miss her so much and I feel so betrayed and hurt that sometimes it's hard to go on.

I've been in emotional lockdown for months trying to find ways to fix the issue and she only said she wanted to be alone. I found the truth by myself and now I have to move on whatever the means.

[C.Stein]

I am definitely having a lot of problems of codependence, and also due the fact that she constantly lies to me, which makes harder to create a real image of what is going on. She has also been quite cruel in overall terms, but since I'm aware of the illness, I have to work twice as hard to not take it personally.

G, I think a good place to start your work on your personal growth is formulating some healthy boundaries.  While it is important in relationships with borderlines to learn how to not take the attacks personally there is a strong need for boundaries and when they are crossed you need to enforce them.  First one I might address is the lying boundary the was continually violated.  :)oes that sound reasonable?

[GGG]

This sounds absolutely reasonable but I don't know how to.

How can I set a boundary regarding lies if by telling her I know about them and I won't tolerate them anymore will trigger more anger?

Besides, I don't have any negotiating power, so setting a boundary means just to leave for good... .

[C.Stein]

This sounds absolutely reasonable but I don't know how to.

How can I set a boundary regarding lies if by telling her I know about them and I won't tolerate them anymore will trigger more anger?

Have you checked out the tools for setting healthy boundaries?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Besides, I don't have any negotiating power, so setting a boundary means just to leave for good... .

There shouldn't be any negotiation going on here with respect to boundaries.  Once you let her cross she knows the boundary can be violated and it can be difficult to reestablish the boundary.  In a healthy relationship trust is paramount and lying should never be tolerated IMO.  Certainly there are exceptions with white lies that everyone tells.  

If the only option for crossing that "lying" boundary is removing yourself from the relationship then that is what you should do. Consider the alternative to staying in a relationship with a person you cannot trust and are always wondering if the things she tells you are the truth.  This is not a good place to be in nor will it ever lead to a healthy long term relationship.

[livednlearned]

The key piece that ties everything together are values and boundaries, like C.Stein mentioned above. Boundaries are a sign of emotional strength. A lot of people arrive here feeling anything but strong, usually because we let our boundaries be eroded in the relationship, and while that may have helped avoid conflict, it made us become exactly the opposite of what a person with BPD needs and wants.

And you are right, that asserting boundaries can feel like a gamble in terms of her leaving. You can see, though, that giving up boundaries did not work because she left anyway.

If you give someone everything she wants, then you are no longer yourself. This is a painful, painful place to be, and no matter what happens next, you have to get back to feeling good about yourself, as yourself, just you -- GGG.

[JQ]

G,

You are receiving a lot of great guidance & references here from everyone. C.Stein gave you a link to help you put tools in your tool box for setting & maintaining boundaries. Liveandlearned has giving you some great guidance by saying you need to get back to yourself, feeling good about yourself. By your own admission at the start of the string, you said, "I am definitely having a lot of problems of codependence,"  You know we've all been there and in order for you NOT to constantly repeat this cycle your in of BPD relationships, you need to work on your codependency behavior.

It's not easy, the struggle is real, but you seem to be a very strong minded and determined person so I have no doubt once you put your mind to it you'll do well. You will stumble ... .we all have. We're human and we try to learn from our experiences. So to help you learn and begin to correct your codependent behavior here's a link to a webinar from the author who wrote, "The Human Magnet Syndrome", a recovered codependent himself so he speaks from experience.

When you need help because you feel you have a moment of weakness, or you don't know if a new girl your dating months from now exhibits BPD traits, you know we have your back.  We've all been there G. and it does get better.

Here's the link ... .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMPaKJfrZrA

Stay healthy my friend ... . 

J

[GGG]

Hello,

I am very thankful to all of you for having my back and being so generous and caring about my issues.

I'm working really hard, doing therapy and going to al-anon groups 2-3 times per week, reading and watching resources such as the one JQ just sent ( Thanks a lot JQ )

However, I really think that I can't move on from her. While I'm recovering my own self and realising about my mistakes in the relationship, I can't help but feeling that I need to fix this somehow. I can't figure out how and it's clear that odds are extremely against me but the more I try to move on and think about her as past or someone who is not in my life anymore, the more I realise she really was the person I wanted to share my life with.

I made the error of allowing certain behaviours and just today in al-anon's session I realised about another mistake of mine. My therapist says that I do also seem to have some kind of clusber b personality but not in the degree she has, as - at least from my perspective, of course - I'm very self aware and also aware of my reality and I have never been told otherwise by anybody, at least in terms of personal relations.

In any way, moving on from her seems something that I don't want and can't do and so I see myself waiting forever. She's the only person I ever felt for so strong and right now, after 3 months, I seem to feel even worse than before.

[mylifeisgoodnow]

Hey ggg. I went through the "you're crazy" and "you scare me" phase with my BPD bfriend a few months ago. It lasted a few months and was so hurtful while in the midst of it. Also the "f off and leave me alone!" Stage.

Looking back that is what they were. Stages. Since BPD sufferers are emotionally stunted I chose to look at these outbursts as I would a five year old throwing a fit. Instead of taking them personally.  The only difference is a five year old uses less language and we are older than them.

This past year of being with my BPD bfriend I have chosen to grow myself instead of trying to figure out his behavior or correcting his illness.

These stages are tests. If the rs survives. To push you away (push/pull). Just as a child screams "you're mean!"

Unlike most I only leave a day or two of silence go by. And even if he is silent... .I talk to him. I apologize. But I learned telling him his fears only angers him more. He doesn't like to hear his weakness.  He doesn't like for me to know his fear. Which is losing me altogether. But the more we love them the more they feel engulfed. I apologize for my actions that may have triggered him.  I accept responsibility for things he may have taken wrong.  Which everything is taken wrong. Use assertive language. Strong. Confident. But nice.

Bpd people are "out of sight out of mind" for the most part.  So it's finding balance to keep the mouse feeling safe enough to stay out of the hole. We as the partners have to be stronger. Needing only pisses them off. Craving what once was scares them off. And remember it is our choice to stay knowing their condition.

The people they were in the beginning are gone. Mourn the loss of her as you knew her and accept her as she is. "In sicknes and health" takes on a whole new meaning.

Her threatening to get with anothet man... .only you know if that is real or a threat.  I say this because manipulation is a major role in their game so you know her best.

Sending love and strength to u

[JQ]

Hey ggg. I went through the "you're crazy" and "you scare me" phase with my BPD bfriend a few months ago. It lasted a few months and was so hurtful while in the midst of it. Also the "f off and leave me alone!" Stage.

Looking back that is what they were. Stages. Since BPD sufferers are emotionally stunted I chose to look at these outbursts as I would a five year old throwing a fit. Instead of taking them personally.  The only difference is a five year old uses less language and we are older than them.

This past year of being with my BPD bfriend I have chosen to grow myself instead of trying to figure out his behavior or correcting his illness.

These stages are tests. If the rs survives. To push you away (push/pull). Just as a child screams "you're mean!"

Unlike most I only leave a day or two of silence go by. And even if he is silent... .I talk to him. I apologize. But I learned telling him his fears only angers him more. He doesn't like to hear his weakness.  He doesn't like for me to know his fear. Which is losing me altogether. But the more we love them the more they feel engulfed. I apologize for my actions that may have triggered him.  I accept responsibility for things he may have taken wrong.  Which everything is taken wrong. Use assertive language. Strong. Confident. But nice.

Bpd people are "out of sight out of mind" for the most part.  So it's finding balance to keep the mouse feeling safe enough to stay out of the hole. We as the partners have to be stronger. Needing only pisses them off. Craving what once was scares them off. And remember it is our choice to stay knowing their condition.

The people they were in the beginning are gone. Mourn the loss of her as you knew her and accept her as she is. "In sicknes and health" takes on a whole new meaning.

Her threatening to get with anothet man... .only you know if that is real or a threat.  I say this because manipulation is a major role in their game so you know her best.

Sending love and strength to u

mylifeisgoodnow,

I agree with some portions of your post and I respectfully disagree with other portions of your post. When I read part of your post it makes me want to reach out to my exBPDgf and attempt another recycle. You said, "Since BPD sufferers are emotionally & behaviorally stunted I chose to look at these outbursts as I would a five year old throwing a fit. Instead of taking them personally.  The only difference is a five year old uses less language and we are older than them."  I agree with your statement here, they are severely emotionally stunted and they are truly the 3 yr old toddler throwing a temper tantrum.  And like the child that will eventually will yell the words, "I hate you" to their mother or father, although it hurts deeply, you should not take it personal. It's part of the normal make up of a child development learning about growing up. Eventually all will be repaired in that relationship and parent & child will love each other deeper.

From my education on BPD, reading, watching, living it, & from Ph.d's, clinical therapist, clinical physiologist have told me they are indeed testing the codependent in test after test after test. There will always be another test given from the BPD. I would agree that they fear engulfment, to know them deeply as a person & to learn their fears, which in some cases do lead to intense fears of abandonment because you know their deepest darkest fears & secrets. So you do what you can in an attempt to calm or eliminate their fears without much success.

I also agree with part of your statement, " The people they were in the beginning are gone. Mourn the loss of her as you knew her"  We the codependent did fall in love with that person in the beginning, it was THAT person we want to be with. It is THAT person we want to explore & live life with. It is THAT person we want to build a life with, maybe be the father/mother to their kids. It is THAT person that we want to grow old with, role around in bed for the weekend with, enjoy sunsets, sunrises, and everything in between. THAT is person we want to be a partner in life with.

BUT I disagree with your statement, "accept her as she is".  As hard as I fell in love with my BPD, how hard I worked to make it work, it was never enough. I spent thousands of dollars to reassure her, to pass each test. She made a demand or statement and I proved to her that I would be there time and time again. I moved across country, I participated in more then one therapist session with her. I agree with your statement, "I say this because manipulation is a major role in their game".  I was manipulated time and time again, I continued to jump through hoop after hoop for her in an attempt to show her, that I was the real deal. IN FACT she said, "You've done everything I've asked you to, and I still don't know what I want or that I can commit to you in a relationship. I can't tell you that I won't cheat on you".  So how am I suppose to react to that? What am I suppose to say to that? And by the way, she has admitted to having more then one triangle with me in addition to her other bf's over the years.  I do NOT have to accept that behavior nor does anyone else have to accept similar behavior.  She has told me that it would be a good idea to get tested for STD's ... .is that a test that anyone should have to pass to prove your love for a BPD? YOU said "in sickness and health" takes on a whole new meaning. I agree with this statement ... .but STD's shouldn't be one of them. I buried a female friend of mine who contracted AIDS from a her LTR with her drug using, cheating bf. No one should have to accept this behavior or "in sickness & in health".

It is ok to give of yourself to another person, IN A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP. In a "normal" relationship you can give up to 49% of yourself ... .you keep 51% to yourself. YOU have to, because if you give any more then that on a constant basis like that in a BPD r/s, then eventually you will have no more to give ... .the well will be dry. You will have spent all of your mind, body & soul on someone who's going to continue to take and take until the source is dry. And when that happens it will be a long & difficult recovery for that person if they recover at all.  I watched my father die before the age of 50 from my BPD step mother. He ended up self medicating with antidepressant meds & washing them down with alcohol to dull the pain of his 20 year relationship with a severely mentally ill person with BPD.  Where was she when he needed her? "In sickness & health" takes on a whole new meaning doesn't it?

IMHO, you shouldn't have had to apologize or accept responsibility for something you said to be true or act in a manner of self preservation in order to regain his trust. IMHO he has manipulated you once again in order to maintain control over the relationship.  You said, "  I accept responsibility for things he may have taken wrong.  Which everything is taken wrong."  If you continue down this path my concern for you is that you will eventually give more of yourself then 51% and you will empty your well and it will be difficult for you to climb your way back out if at all. Why do YOU apologize if you said nothing wrong? Why did you apologize for doing nothing wrong? Why did you apologize for setting a boundary and calling him out?

We all have to accept responsibilities for our own Codependency and to learn all we can about it and how to adjust/tweak/change our behavior in order to have A HEALTHY MUTUALLY RESPECTFUL LOVING CARING R/S. We have to learn about our own history of how & why we became a codependent. We might not like what we find, but you can't go forward in your future if you don't know where you came from in your past. To do otherwise is to do an injustice to yourself, and your children if you have them.

I wish you continued strength in your journey.

JQ

[GGG]

Her threatening to get with anothet man... .only you know if that is real or a threat.  I say this because manipulation is a major role in their game so you know her best.

She has slept with him already but she denies it to me. whatever the reason ( probably she's still thikning I will hurt her or maybe she's scared of the shame )


I keep respecting her and being respectful instead of getting angry and creating all the havoc I could create in hopes of getting her back, though I'm not sure it is a healthy thing to do anymore.

[mylifeisgoodnow]

Jq, yes I hear all sides to your statement. I am only trying to lessen the stress I feel from ggg's post. I empathize from both sides as I can look back and see traits of BPD in my past. As well as codependent.

I am 45... .my bf is 32, so I come with 13 more years and know where he is at his age. I tried for the first nine months to "grow him up" faster than he is able.

I myself do not want to be BPD nor codependent that is why I've chosen to work on me and take the emphasis off of him. In any rs it isn't either party's job to keep the other "happy".  I fell in love with the core characteristics he presented in the beginning. but did not enjoy the flattery and compliments so I guess I differ. I did not need those things. I only wanted him happy. And still do. And him happy means knowing I love him and feeling free at the same time as any person does.

I am not saying turn a blind eye to cheating and accept everything as it comes. Of course practice safe sex if trust is apparently an issue. But ggg says he is not ready to leave. Or give up just yet. I see my rs as temporary as with any. The stronger we hold on to anything the greater the risk of choking it.

I understand and empathize with it all.

A lifelong lesson with or without a partner is to feel happy.  On your own. It will never come from the outside. The less we try to appease the more energy we will have. They actually want to be alone but the need for love is still strong so they try to be in relationships to fill the need. They are capable only on their terms. It is up to us to listen to those terms and stop trying to make it normal.

I have so much love for myself. I give it freely and without demands. (Now) rather than wrestling it out of him. I am full. And confident. And proud of how far I've come. Fairy tales are for children. For us to think there is a prince or princess is a dream and we need to wake up.

Ggg... .I'm sorry you are in this stage. It may improve it may not. Hard (impossible) to figure out the next move because the other player is sick. Take care of yourself. I mean really take care of yourself. Find the person you were before you met her and stand strong in that. The fog is thick at times but it is possible to remain sane. And separate yourself from the drama. That is what they inflict. It's a game of cat and mouse. You just have to stand back every once in a while and reassess.

Every person comes with their "crazy" and until you see it in the worst scenario you will only attract more of the same. Use rhis time to grow. And realize you are fine without her. It has been a month of no contact? You have survived. You are just not ready to let go. You have more to learn from this. You will come out stronger. With or without.  That is always your choice at any point. With any person. We are all in each other s lives for a reason.