Do we avoid saying "No" because of the possible fallout?

[lbjnltx]

None of us like to deal with confrontation.  We get so much drama, not of our own making, why create it?

Do you enable by giving in to requests to avoid dealing with the fallout? 

Have you become creative with ways to say "No" to minimize fallout?

Do you avoid saying "No" because you don't have the skills to watch your child/adult child struggle?

If you can identify with any of the questions, let's talk about our perspectives, our kids wants/needs, and how we can better navigate these situations.

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi LBJ

I can react impetuously when faced with a "future" drama. I need to learn to not act but reflect. Yesterday, at least I posted on here before taking any further action fuelled by both of our emotions (H and I). I think I need to work harder disassociating myself from BPDs problems.

I try not to fix any more but I do try and manage the fall out. Bpds internalises and rarely makes any requests; he will suffer until we step in. He wants to be left alone to go at his own speed (which historically is stagnatory). I am getting better at not stepping in and have created a more stable environment for BPDs to make better decisions himself.  I find it frustrating as they're always reactive decisions.  I think I need to put more boundaries in place regarding finances but this is contradicting the allowing him to make his own decisions rule. I struggle with understanding needs and wants when things are muddy.

I would like some creative No's to use. Particularly, how to deal with passive requests. I think maybe I need to help my family to better communicate.

I find it difficult to watch them struggle but see that I can create a better environment for them rather than fixing. I can help by supporting in the right way.

L

[Rockieplace]

None of us like to deal with confrontation.  We get so much drama, not of our own making, why create it?

Do you enable by giving in to requests to avoid dealing with the fallout? 

Have you become creative with ways to say "No" to minimize fallout?

Do you avoid saying "No" because you don't have the skills to watch your child/adult child struggle?

If you can identify with any of the questions, let's talk about our perspectives, our kids wants/needs, and how we can better navigate these situations.



lbj

I really like this topic! 

I can absolutely relate to the need to avoid 'fallout'.  My BPDD has been in crisis over the last 9 months and has been therefore much more difficult to communicate with in any way without triggering an extreme reaction of self-harm or vicious tirade of abuse.  I didn't know either about the need to validate and probably didn't react well to what I saw as terrifying and very unfair behaviour.  After a change of medication she is now much more stable and I have learned a lot about validation meanwhile from this site and from the book "I can't make everything all better".  I am now tentatively starting to be able communicate more effectively using your mantra LBJ of 'Validate, validate, validate" prior to answering the phone or replying to texts.  I'm also trying very hard to be a better listener and trying to stop fixing and offering solutions.  This has produced a much better reaction  - better than I could have believed possible actually.  I'm still afraid of my daughter though and still really can't trust her yet but I suppose that will come in time if things continue how they are. 

Before the crisis and her diagnosis, which she accepted surprisingly enough, I had spent years being afraid of her in a slightly different way.  She could be very malicious towards me and knew exactly how to seek out my weaknesses and put the boot in.  I tended to be nervous even when she was being ultra nice to me.  My kindest way of describing her was that she was "a piece of work!"

The financial boundary was couched in language that acknowledged her wishes to be treated like a responsible, independent woman which proved so effective.  This leads me to think that I must stop thinking of her as an irresponsible, immature person and assuming that she can indeed behave differently but must do it of her own choosing.  It is definitely a work in progress.  I hope that my daughter has it in her to work hard too and not, as has happened so often in the past, go off at a tangent and do something either very destructive to others or self-destructive. 

Unlike your son, Lollipop, she does ask for a lot (materially and emotionally) from us and uses a lot of emotive words to get what she wants. I have always tried to defend myself in the past which I must stop doing as it just results in an argument.  I'm learning!

Fingers and everything else crossed.

[lbjnltx]

Hello Lollypop,

I can react impetuously when faced with a "future" drama. I need to learn to not act but reflect. Yesterday, at least I posted on here before taking any further action fuelled by both of our emotions (H and I). I think I need to work harder disassociating myself from BPDs problems.

Yes, we need to reflect and not react. We need to respond vs react.  We will have emotions that rise up when a situation occurs that we believe has the potential for a negative reaction from our BPDkids/adult children.

We can become fortunetellers in the worst possible way.  This is not good as it puts us in a state of heightened fear.  In this state we are in emotional mind, not wisemind. In emotional mind we cannot formulate  a healthy response, discern where our responsibilities begin and end or model the behaviors we wish our children to have.  

I try not to fix any more but I do try and manage the fall out. Bpds internalises and rarely makes any requests; he will suffer until we step in. He wants to be left alone to go at his own speed (which historically is stagnatory). I am getting better at not stepping in and have created a more stable environment for BPDs to make better decisions himself.  I find it frustrating as they're always reactive decisions.  I think I need to put more boundaries in place regarding finances but this is contradicting the allowing him to make his own decisions rule. I struggle with understanding needs and wants when things are muddy.

Creating a healthy environment in which our children feel safe, loved, and understood is the most important thing we can do as their parents.  

Financial responsibility comes with being an adult, disordered or not.  

Can you tell us more about how your financial boundaries contradict his freedom to make decisions for himself?  

In month 9 of my d's RTC stay we discussed her ability to differentiate a need from a want.  While we as parents can make our own definition it is indeed ours and our kids may have a different definition of what a need is and what a want is.  PwBPD generally have more wants that feel like extreme need to them.  These extreme feelings are what drive the pressure they put on us to give them what they "need".  In that moment when they ask for ______, it feels to them like the be all and end all.  If we waiver... .if we say "no" their reactions to not getting this extreme need met can become high conflict.

Validating the feeling of extreme need vs. addressing whether they really need it or not is a good start.

I would like some creative No's to use. Particularly, how to deal with passive requests. I think maybe I need to help my family to better communicate.

In the moment a request is made the feeling of extreme need, feeling that "if they love and care about me they will give me what I ask for because it is so important to me" we don't want to feed the tiger... .if we do, we are setting our kids/ourselves up for more in the future.  

Responses like:  "I understand.  I will give it some thought and we can talk about it again later/tomorrow/next week."  This takes the "intense, in the moment fire" out of the equation.  It can also teach our kids delayed gratification while we formulate a response to them that is within any boundaries we have, while we get into wisemind, and just breathe.  

I find it difficult to watch them struggle but see that I can create a better environment for them rather than fixing. I can help by supporting in the right way.

L

What are some ways that you can support "in the right way?"

[8daysAweek]

Hey Lollypop,

It must feel like you're going in circles! I get frustrated, myself, when people I love won't ask for what they need and it feels like I'm begging them to tell me how to help them. It's tough.

I feel like you and your BPDs would benefit from using "I feel ____, I need ____" statements. I think that this skill really is the foundation for communicating effectively. When my mom presented this to me, I didn't take to it at first. I soon learned how effective it was when I wanted/needed something.

One of the first "I feel __. I need ____." statements I used was "Mom, I feel sad. I need a hug."

As our communication skills grew, I added on "Because ____"

Example "I feel frustrated because I have a lot of homework today. I really need some help with it."

Not only did our communication skills improve, so did our relationship.

I hope this works for you

- 8days

[lbjnltx]

I can absolutely relate to the need to avoid 'fallout'.  My BPDD has been in crisis over the last 9 months and has been therefore much more difficult to communicate with in any way without triggering an extreme reaction of self-harm or vicious tirade of abuse.  I didn't know either about the need to validate and probably didn't react well to what I saw as terrifying and very unfair behaviour.  After a change of medication she is now much more stable and I have learned a lot about validation meanwhile from this site and from the book "I can't make everything all better".  I am now tentatively starting to be able communicate more effectively using your mantra LBJ of 'Validate, validate, validate" prior to answering the phone or replying to texts.  I'm also trying very hard to be a better listener and trying to stop fixing and offering solutions.  This has produced a much better reaction  - better than I could have believed possible actually.  I'm still afraid of my daughter though and still really can't trust her yet but I suppose that will come in time if things continue how they are.

Hi Rockie Place,

I'm glad to hear that your relationship with your daughter is improving from using your validation skills.  Being a committed listener is the first step in being an effective validator.  Listen to understand... not to figure out how to fix. Yes?

Being afraid of the verbal attacks that we anticipate... .this is a conditioned response based on history.  For  me personally, I had a difficult time learning the effective communication skills because I didn't have a solution for handling the negative fallout from denying a request.  In my situation, I had to set boundaries around abusive interactions to create a place of safety for  myself... .Safety is first on the list of human needs in order to mature/change.

What boundaries do you think you need to set for yourself to create a place of self imposed safety? 

The financial boundary was couched in language that acknowledged her wishes to be treated like a responsible, independent woman which proved so effective.  This leads me to think that I must stop thinking of her as an irresponsible, immature person and assuming that she can indeed behave differently but must do it of her own choosing.

You are right on this one Rockie Place.  We don't want to fall into the trap of self fulfilling prophecy.    If we want them to respond differently then we need to create the space and belief that they can and will.  We can validate to help them self soothe, we can ask validating questions to help them work through possible solutions to their problems, we can lead by example higher level skills like the art of negotiation through respectful interaction.

When we enable and give in to a request to "fix it" we deny them the opportunities to learn what they need to learn.

I have always tried to defend myself in the past which I must stop doing as it just results in an argument.  I'm learning!

It is a natural reaction to JADE... Justify, Argue, Defend, and Explain in the face of accusations.  JADEing sets us up for circular arguments.  When we JADE we are a) operating from the belief that our kids will snap into reason and logical mind and recognize their thinking errors  b) reacting and not responding c) invalidating their emotions.  When we look at JADE from our kids perspective we can clearly see the futility of it.

lbj

[Lollypop]

8daysaweek

Thank you. A very simple but practical suggestion that I can use on all my family. It's like we've got to pare right back to basics which is what's needed. I will definitely move forward on this.

Lbj

Thank you for your reply and it's so very helpful to me. In answer to your two questions:

Bpds should be making all his own decisions regarding his financial life. Included in this is registering as self employed, tax return, deciding to enter into a payment arrangement to pay off his debt/s. I should leave him, be patient, wait for him to accept he needs to take action and he ask for help if he needs it but I know he'll do nothing. Doing nothing isn't progressing and taking responsibility for himself. I have a problem with this as its so frustrating. I know I shouldn't suggest he could take action. I could force him to register and sort out his tax or introduce a boundary that he pays his debt off but I don't think I should do that. He is an adult so if he chooses to do nothing then that's his right. But this contradicts my goal to get him independent. I'm feeling my way forward and rather than set everything out to a programme I think I'd be best to time it when I think he's ready - but that's not treating him like an adult but it does recognise an adult with a skill deficit who is mentally ill. How do parents balance this?

What ways can I support in the right way?

Do more of what I'm doing: validation, learning and practising

Ensure boundaries are realistic and kept by BPDs

Keep encouraging BPDs to seek treatment

Improve communication amongst us all

Be truthful with one another

Treat my BPDs as an adult in all matters, respect him and don't open his mail for starters!

I think what I need to do for myself is understand what my priorities are as far as learning. It's been a bit scatter gun and to be really effective I could do with concentrating either on my own skills deficit or BPDs. There's just so much to do.

L

[lbjnltx]

Hi again Lollypop,

From reading your reply it appears that there may be some confusion regarding boundaries.

We really can't set boundaries on things/people/situations outside of our power to enforce. ie... .I can't set a boundary that my daughter pay her electric bill.  I can set a boundary that I will not enable my daughter's poor decisions regarding financial responsibility.  I can't force her to pay her electric bill and within my boundaries regarding enabling I choose not to pay it for her.

There is a difference between agreements, limits, and boundaries.  Here, on this site, we define boundaries as how we define our core values to others. A boundary is nothing more than the outer perimeters of our independent core values - it's like a fence - anything inside the boundary is consistent with our core values and anything outside the boundary is not.

Boundaries are not negotiable outside of our tolerance levels. For example:

I have a boundary that states I will not take abuse (verbal, emotional, physical).  On any given day I may be able to tolerate a verbal attack better than another... .I may have the ability that day to listen and validate, to create an opportunity to stay in the conversation and move to problem solving mode.  At the same time, my pre stated boundary and subsequent consequence are still there and I can enforce both at any time.  Here is my stated boundary:

"I value my safety, mentally, emotionally and physically.  There is no excuse for abuse.  I will let you know that our interaction feels unsafe to me and I will walk away. We can revisit the conversation at a later time when we are both calm and in wisemind."

Limits are generally like house rules, agreements we have made with each other on what is expected of each person.  Limits can be negotiable and each person held accountable.

Here is a link to the tools regarding Boundaries and Limits.  At the bottom is a link to detailed information about Boundaries and how to determine your core values and tips on setting and enforcing Boundaries. 

https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/06.htm

As far as a scatter gun approach to learning all the information there is to learn and applying it to our relationships... .yes... .there is a lot indeed.  The golden rule for me is "I cannot give what I do not have".   And I firmly believe that modeling is the highest level of help to another person.  Our efforts to address our kids deficits is the natural starting point for us as parents... .we are still in "fix them" mode.  We are focusing on what we don't have the power to change... .them.  It takes us time to come back full circle and realize that we are the only people who we can change.

The bottom line is that all of our efforts to be the most informed, understanding, high skill user may not change our kids for the better... .or it could.  Regardless... .we are now the most informed, understanding high skill user, we have changed and we benefit while we show our kids the way. 

lbj

[Rockieplace]

It is complicated to understand and even harder to apply isn't it?  My brain hurts right now. I'm going through a very steep learning curve and will hopefully reach a level of maturity (at the ripe old age of 64) that I might not otherwise have reached - ha ha.

Having the diagnosis after years of not understanding what was happening or causing such animosity and hurt has helped at least for me to begin to learn to respond and behave more appropriately.  I now know that the attacks on me are far more about her than me and my response probably inadvertently made things worse.

I am now determined to treat her as a mature, independent adult rather than a reckless child (even though her behaviour is often more in line with the latter).  I am also determined not to defend myself against her sometimes outrageous accusations and abuse but rather, firmly, respectfully and kindly say that I need to distance myself temporarily for the sake of my own health until we can communicate more calmly. 

Regarding the need to refuse any unreasonable requests for money etc. after the fantastic start I made using your words lbj! I am trying to practise little phrases in advance but I keep coming up against the ubiquitous 'but'.  I'm finding it so hard to avoid the 'but'.

For example:

"I know you feel really bad about this and I would love to help... .and then up comes the 'but'.  How do we get around the but?

Apart from the above, I do feel that, through reading and learning from this site and elsewhere, I am getting more confident about how I need to behave in her best interests in the future. 

[lbjnltx]

I'd really like to help you and this is what I am willing to do.

I'd really like to help you come up with a solution. What options do you see?

I'd really like to help you get your needs met while sticking to our agreement.

I'd really like to help you and I believe you can make this happen for yourself since it is so important to you.

[Lollypop]

Thank you LBJ

I can see what a boundary is now and How it differs from agreements and limits.

Our only boundary at the moment is no drugs in our house. We have an agreement that he contributes towards his living costs. Our limits include no smoking in the house, cleaning the bathroom etc... .

Importantly I can now see that I need to learn skills that I need. I just need to decide what to focus on and make sure that whatever I do, I do well. This will help improve my confidence.

Thanks for helping me get this far. I've already improved massively and I'm seeing the difference in BPDs and my H, who is trying to get along better with BPDs.

L

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jbmom]

I do say no, or not now or maybe another time. Mostly when it starts to infringe on my personal boundaries.

My husband will avoid saying no as he cannot take conflict or confrontation. BPD Daughter knows this and uses it against us.

[Lollypop]

Hi jbmom

My H also can't take conflict. I feel the consequence of this has been that I took the lead in raising our kids. His interactions then became limited and he has a poor relationship with both of them. This was tearing me away from my sons, H was encouraging our lives without them. H was dividing and conquering. I say NO to this. I see now that I need to show him how he can be a better dad but actually he needs to want to do this.

My BPDs25 and son15 are close to me and I will nurture a healthier relationship as we move forward.

L

[Rockieplace]

I'd really like to help you and this is what I am willing to do.

I'd really like to help you come up with a solution. What options do you see?

I'd really like to help you get your needs met while sticking to our agreement.

I'd really like to help you and I believe you can make this happen for yourself since it is so important to you.

Great - thank you again lbj.  I'm off to practise now!