How uBPD came across in court

[NorthernGirl]

DH and uBPD were in a hearing regarding guardianship of SS20, who has special needs. The hearing just wrapped up, but we don't expect a decision for a month or so. You can read more about the reason for the hearing in my earlier posts: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288949.0

One question I had leading into the hearing was how uBPD might respond in a courtroom. I know that people are going to react differently to the stress of court, even if they don't have a personality disorder, but we tried to give DH's L some sense of how uBPD might react to help the L plan cross examination. We guessed that uBPD might refuse to admit to lies and exaggerations in her affidavit (that was true), that she might get annoyed, or get short with her answers (she did get annoyed, but more often seemed perplexed) and that she might cry or put on the "poor mother" routine (she did that a litte at the end of her testimony but wasn't very convincing.)

I thought I'd provide a quick summary of how I thought she came across in the hearing for others on this site who might be curious as I was, with the caveat that not everyone with BPD will respond in the way DH's ex did. The hearing confirmed for me that uBPD is likely oblivious to how distorted her thinking is.

* uBPD often struggled to answer questions on the stand, even from her own L. She often seemed perplexed or had a non-response.

* The judge needed to constantly remind uBPD to answer the question and to speak up. A few times uBPD acted annoyed at questions she got in cross examination, but the judge was quick to keep her in line.

* uBPD often seemed oblivious to how she was coming across. Even if the judge look surprised, annoyed or appalled, uBPD kept on saying whatever she was saying. If the judge asked her to confirm something that we could clearly see made her look bad, uBPD said it again without hesitation.   

* Her L tried to steer her towards answers a few times, but uBPD still didn't respond well. Her L: so you seem to have sent off a few emails that had unkind words about your ex, is that correct. uBPD: Well I send him hundreds of emails and I guess I've sent 4 or 5 like that. Her L: I'm sure even though it wasn't often, you regret sending the ones you did... .uBPD: I guess.

* DH's L spent a lot of time pointing out how many inaccurate statements were in uBPD's affidavit. Even when it was clear that the L was pointing out a problem, uBPD would try to stand by what she'd written. Then she would look confused when the L would get her to see she had said the opposite later in her affidavit, or that she said one thing in the document, but included evidence attached that proved the opposite. uBPD would flip back and forth looking perplexed.

* We think the uBPD didn't take her L's advice on what to include in the affidavit -- it was rambling and disorganized. We also think uBPD wrote at least part of her L's summation. Maybe it was a $ issue -- we know she is hurting financially so maybe she limited her L's time by doing a bunch herself -- or maybe a control issue. But either way, it hurt her case. DH's L said she has been in court against the other L before, and the documents weren't as disorganized and the summation wasn't as disjointed. The summation included  uBPD's versions of the truth even though there was no evidence provided to support it.

The hearing was very tough on uBPD and DH. They were each on the stand 5 hours. DH's L had told him that cross examination was going to be difficult -- so we had practiced with me asking him questions (we saved money by having me do the practice rather than the L!) DH said it helped him that he'd practiced staying calm and listening carefully for the question. Through most of his testimony he was clear and concise. His L said DH did as well as he could do. uBPD was never clear and concise.

We are now waiting for the final decision. In hindsight, I think uBPD didn't get angry much because she didn't realize how poorly she was coming across. She might get angry if she doesn't like the decision. I'm guessing if asked, she would say she did fine in the hearing. Maybe even that she did very well.

I'll provide an update on the decision once we get it.

[Panda39]

Hi NorthernGirl,

Thank you for popping in with an update.  My thoughts are with you all, I know this has been a long time coming.  It sounds like your husband was prepared and handled his testimony well... .geez 5 hours sounds like such a long time! At least he should have been able to get the whole story/argument out in that time.

How is your SS20 doing throughout all of this?  It must be hard for him with all the conflict between his parents.

Sounds like you had the ex pretty well pegged in terms of her behaviors.  It is interesting how even in the chaos and the drama there are patterns of behavior, at least I see some with my SO's uBPDxw.

Again wishing you all well and look forward to hearing what the final decision is.

Panda39

[NorthernGirl]

Thanks Panda39!

SS21 is doing pretty well. All along he's wanted a chance to give his opinion - he was supposed to have an opportunity to talk with an arbitrator if there were any decisions involving him that his parents disagreed on, but his Mom kept firing the arbitrators. So DH's L asked that the judge speak to SS21 as part of the process.

The judge met with him in a separate room (he did not attend court) and they had a pretty informal chat. We got a transcript of the conversation and could see that he spoke about a number of topics. When they met, uBPD had just finished her testimony and DH hadn't gone yet, so we think the judge had a good sense of uBPD by that point. The judge commented after meetng with SS21 "I've just met a very polite and articulate young man." We thought that was a good sign because in her testimony, uBPD had tried to paint SS21 as very incapable.

SS21 told the judge he wants to continue to have both his parents as his joint guardians because it is too hard to pick one. He told the judge his parents have always disagreed so it is nothing new. By having the opportunity to have his say, I think he feels heard and is now waiting for the decision. Leading up to the hearing, we did our best to keep him busy, validate his concerns, etc.

SS21's two brothers both provided letters for the court. After reading them, the judge commented that this was a very divided family. SS23, who is estranged from DH and enabled by uBPD, wrote a letter about how DH wasn't a good father or guardian and how his mother is wonderful. SS23 is an addict who likely has a PD, living full time with his Mom. SS25 wrote a letter saying DH is a great father and that he can't imagine a better guardian for SS21. He specifically did not mention his Mom, knowing that doing so would further jeopardize their shaky relationship. So that was all messy and tough on everyone involved.

It's been almost a year since uBPD first filed for sole guardianship so this has been a long and stressful process. Our biggest concern is that it won't end. As a mother, uBPD has lots of ways to object and interfere. If she doesn't like the judge's decision, she can appeal it, although we hope the financial hit will prevent that. If the judge decides to continue the joint guardianship arrangement, uBPD will look for ways to continue to try to hold SS21 back and fight with DH. If DH is sole guardian, uBPD would be able to file complaints against him with the guardianship office, which could result in more hearings. So we are hoping the judge saw enough of uBPD to try to come up with some way that she can't interfere. But there is no easy solution.

DH has held up okay but this has all taken a toll on him. In the past, he has tried to cope by not dwelling on uBPD's craziness -- essentially 'forgetting' a bunch of stuff she has said and done. But then he had to endure reading all the craziness in her documents and hearing it all in her testimony. Five hours on the stand was long! His L questioned him for 2 hours, wanting to ensure the judge got a good sense of how he supports SS21. Then he had 3 hours of tough questioning from uBPD's L. It was hard to watch so I can't imagine how hard it was to be on the stand with a L relaying all uBPD's distortions and trying to get him angry or flustered.

I'm doing okay but it has been a long haul of staying strong, trying to validate DH and SS21, etc. DH and his boys all suffer from anxiety, so I spend a lot of time trying to keep our home calm. I know it means looking after myself, so I try to do that as best I can but it isn't easy. 

So we know that DH did as well as he could, SS21 had his say and this is out of our hands. And now we wait!

[Frank88]

What is SS and DH? Good post about how they act under pressure.

[Panda39]

What is SS and DH? Good post about how they act under pressure.

SS=StepSon

DH=Darling Husband

There is a Glossary Tab on the green toolbar above that can help with all of our various abbreviations and terms.

Panda39

[Panda39]

I'm glad everyone was heard particularly SS21 it is about him after all. Everyone has had their say and now the judge has to weigh it all.  I hope all goes well but it sucks that even if it does go well uBPDmom still has so many ways to stir the pot. 

Keep us posted on the outcome.

Take Care,

Panda

[ForeverDad]

How to clarify SS23's letter?  Did DH's lawyer get to ask DH whether SS23 had any issues that might affect his perspective?  Would DH have been permitted to state his son's drug issues?

[NorthernGirl]

How to clarify SS23's letter?  Did DH's lawyer get to ask DH whether SS23 had any issues that might affect his perspective?  Would DH have been permitted to state his son's drug issues?

SS23's addiction was only hinted at in court. Prior to the hearing uBPD asked for references to his addiction be removed in DH's affidavit. DH didn't have much in his affidavit about SS23 or his addiction - only where it impacted SS21. But the little he had uBPD got removed. The judge agreed mostly because the references were a couple years old. DH's L said she could have fought and won that the references stay in, but that would have only delayed the hearing. DH's L decided not to dwell much on SS23 in the hearing.

A previous affidavit was included as evidence - when DH had to get a court order to have SS21 assessed when his mom pulled him from school - and that affidavit had references to SS23's addiction, treatment programs. So the judge will see that.

The judge read the letters on a break and when she came back she basically said she wouldn't put any weight on them because the letter writers weren't being cross examined. L tried to make a case for using the letters in her final argument so we figure uBPD wasn't happy they weren't going to be considered.

SS23's letter didn't read like something written by a 23 year old young man. It read like something his mother would write for him. Not that she did - I think he wrote the letter to please his mom so she will keep enabling him.

[ForeverDad]

The judge read the letters on a break and when she came back she basically said she wouldn't put any weight on them because the letter writers weren't being cross examined.

That's what my lawyer always said, he can't cross examine a piece of paper.  My Ex brought a letter once in 2009 but my lawyer said "Objection!" and it was Sustained.  The magistrate had to explain to my Ex what "sustained" meant.

[livednlearned]

And now we wait!

I wonder why the wait? Did they tell you a ballpark range you would have to wait?

My rulings always came down right away, in the court room. I guess different states/different courts have different ways of doing things.

Waiting would make it so hard. 

[NorthernGirl]

The judge said she expects to share the decision in April - but it could go longer. She does criminal trials as well so she says she would do those first.

The whole timeline sucks

- uBPD filed for a hearing April 2015

- court date was originally set for fall 2015, then moved to Feb 2016

- 3 days of the hearing were in mid Feb, but they ran out of time before getting to final arguments

- final arguments were Mid March - when the judge could fit it in.

- we are two weeks waiting so far but could be 4 more weeks, or more, before we hear

i think because SS21 isn't seen to be in any danger, the decision isn't seen as critical.

[Thunderstruck]

We had to wait for our temp CO too. I think it was just too much information and the judge wanted to sit down and think about it a bit. For smaller items we get decisions right there in the court room.

Waiting is so very hard. Fingers crossed for you!

[ForeverDad]

In the summer of 2012 I filed for majority time, I already had custody.  The two day trial was in mid-October of the next year.  The decision was issued on December 30, well over two months later.  It was supposed to have been issued within 30 days, or maybe 60?  Then I had to wait another 10 days in case one of us filed an Objection.  Court filed its "No Objections" confirmation on January 16.  Only then was the decision active and enforceable.