Birthday party blowup

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, finding the place where you are going to stand your ground is a tricky thing. 

Not saying I have figured it out, as in how to do it best, but I have figured out where I am taking a stand.

Having other people come into the residence I live at an "impose" their will on me, while I am saying I don't want that to happen, is it.

So, take that principle and you can see how it applies to other situations such as a bunch of my wife's family coming into the house and deciding they can be loud, that I sleep just fine other places and since they told me I should go somewhere else.

If standing up to this means my r/s is over, I'm divorced, whatever, I get it there is a price to pay for having boundaries and attempting to enforce them.

So, today is a birthday for D3.  The plan, talked through multiple times, including yesterday, was that the public "everybody there" part of the B-day party would happen at the Easter egg hunt for the neighborhood then my wife, I and kids would come back to house for cake, presents and hanging out in the back yard. 

Well, her parents show up and plop down ready for presents.  I ask my wife to come to room to chat, and to her credit she came.  You can guess it, denies a plan, says she will bring over parents whenever.  No reason to flesh out the conversation.

So, I head out and walk up to her parents and say

"I request that the adults find time to get together and discuss how family events are scheduled"

They fire back that there is no problem, FF wife invited us.  "But I didn't" was my response, followed up by "my wife and I are working on our marriage and trying to have joint communication"

Well, it blew up from there.

On the one hand they were claiming to be so worried about my health and mental health, but to my "retort" of "then why not let me sleep", they claim that they have never woken me up and "that night was a totally different thing"  Followed up by "you sleep just fine, you just didn't want to go somewhere else." (this is FIL speaking).

Well, there is about 20 minutes of letting it all fly, I heard claims from them of things I owe them, debts to them, that, well, I have never heard of.

Then, FIL says it's over, we'll shake and get past it, ? 

He actually said, "I've never seen a dime out of all the work I have done for you (forgetting the 10k check my wife sent him), when I asked about the money in his account, he says, I don't have an account, it's yours.

So, my FIL has an account at a bank, where rent is deposited, that is only in his name.  Yet, "he hasn't seen a dime", when I pressed him on that account, he said that it was the account "I made him have.", so it wasn't his and he had no control over it, no say at all.

Yet, if I walked in the bank and tried to withdraw, they would say no, because it's not my account.

Huh?

As you can guess, I'm still a bit worked up. 

I went to room to relax.  I guess they had the party.  I suppose I am having a party later tonight without anyone else here, as in me, wife and kids.

We'll see.

I don't see how this gets solved or turns into a longterm livable solution.  Well, I do, but it involves them backing down. 

They "wondered aloud" today if I really was even disabled, that I should just quit "laying around" and do something for my family,   (yeah, that pissed me off, )

FF

[formflier]

So, finding the place where you are going to stand your ground is a tricky thing. 

Not saying I have figured it out, as in how to do it best, but I have figured out where I am taking a stand.

Having other people come into the residence I live at an "impose" their will on me, while I am saying I don't want that to happen, is it.

So, take that principle and you can see how it applies to other situations such as a bunch of my wife's family coming into the house and deciding they can be loud, that I sleep just fine other places and since they told me I should go somewhere else.

If standing up to this means my r/s is over, I'm divorced, whatever, I get it there is a price to pay for having boundaries and attempting to enforce them.

So, today is a birthday for D3.  The plan, talked through multiple times, including yesterday, was that the public "everybody there" part of the B-day party would happen at the Easter egg hunt for the neighborhood then my wife, I and kids would come back to house for cake, presents and hanging out in the back yard. 

Well, her parents show up and plop down ready for presents.  I ask my wife to come to room to chat, and to her credit she came.  You can guess it, denies a plan, says she will bring over parents whenever.  No reason to flesh out the conversation.

So, I head out and walk up to her parents and say

"I request that the adults find time to get together and discuss how family events are scheduled"

They fire back that there is no problem, FF wife invited us.  "But I didn't" was my response, followed up by "my wife and I are working on our marriage and trying to have joint communication"

Well, it blew up from there.

On the one hand they were claiming to be so worried about my health and mental health, but to my "retort" of "then why not let me sleep", they claim that they have never woken me up and "that night was a totally different thing"  Followed up by "you sleep just fine, you just didn't want to go somewhere else." (this is FIL speaking).

Well, there is about 20 minutes of letting it all fly, I heard claims from them of things I owe them, debts to them, that, well, I have never heard of.

Then, FIL says it's over, we'll shake and get past it, ? 

He actually said, "I've never seen a dime out of all the work I have done for you (forgetting the 10k check my wife sent him), when I asked about the money in his account, he says, I don't have an account, it's yours.

So, my FIL has an account at a bank, where rent is deposited, that is only in his name.  Yet, "he hasn't seen a dime", when I pressed him on that account, he said that it was the account "I made him have.", so it wasn't his and he had no control over it, no say at all.

Yet, if I walked in the bank and tried to withdraw, they would say no, because it's not my account.

Huh?

As you can guess, I'm still a bit worked up. 

I went to room to relax.  I guess they had the party.  I suppose I am having a party later tonight without anyone else here, as in me, wife and kids.

We'll see.

I don't see how this gets solved or turns into a longterm livable solution.  Well, I do, but it involves them backing down. 

They "wondered aloud" today if I really was even disabled, that I should just quit "laying around" and do something for my family,   (yeah, that pissed me off, )

FF

[Daniell85]

These people are toxic.

IMO the only way to save your marriage is to move very very far away from them. Your wife has become emboldened with them backing her up. They are all supporting each other and likely sitting around yapping to each other all the time about whatever BS your wife is telling them.

Also, what is this about rent being paid to your father-in-law. I don't understand what that is about. Why does he think you owe him money?

[Grey Kitty]

OK, I'm trying to understand how this one started... .really... .

So, today is a birthday for D3.  The plan, talked through multiple times, including yesterday, was that the public "everybody there" part of the B-day party would happen at the Easter egg hunt for the neighborhood then my wife, I and kids would come back to house for cake, presents and hanging out in the back yard. 

Q1: If the plan was talked through multiple times, was this because you had some idea how YOU wanted it to go, and your wife seemed to want something different? (i.e. looking back, did you have reason to expect things to go differently/badly?

Well... .her parents show up and plop down ready for presents.  I ask my wife to come to room to chat... .and to her credit she came.  You can guess it... .denies a plan... .says she will bring over parents whenever.  No reason to flesh out the conversation.

So, I head out and walk up to her parents and say

"I request that the adults find time to get together and discuss how family events are scheduled"

At least in retrospect, it is pretty clear that once her parents showed up, your chance of getting your wife to dis-invite them without a HUGE fight was negligible. And once that wasn't going to happen, the chance of you convincing her parents to side with you when she was clearly disagreeing with you were even worse... .so in retrospect, nothing good was going to come of asking her parents for a "discussion" ... .I wouldn't have guessed exactly how they were going to blow up, but at least in retrospect, this is two instances of one of my mantras... .nothing good will come of this... .


If FF wife's parents are indeed that difficult and toxic... .ultimately, I see two vaguely reasonable for you to take:

1. Accept that they will show up unannounced, either on their own or when your wife is doing something kinda half-sneaking around what you wished.

2. Tell your wife in no uncertain terms, that her parents are not permitted in your house ever again without your explicit permission.

The option which got you where you are today--thinking that your wife will honor your desires for plans to do things as a family without them, whether you explicitly get agreement with her on this, or perhaps didn't discuss it... .or whatever... .seems doomed to failure again and again.

Time for some radical acceptance that this option won't work, and will just leave you furious and ready to consider divorce.

[formflier]

 

Rent money:

So, in a past life I had a side business "flipping" houses.   Flipped about 50 of them.  It was me and two of my buddies (fellow naval aviators) that coordinated a huge thing that went on for several years.  Then, I moved and did a bunch of real estate on my own (just my wife and I) and then, in a huge mistake on my part I succumbed to the pressure to "show them" how it was done and do a deal or two with them to get them going making money in real estate.

Well, those deals coincided with the downturn in the market and I now have several rental houses and houses where I hold the mortgage or contract for deed (basically I sold a house and financed it myself).  

Well, both "deals" with them happened during this time of downturn so a "quick money" flip, just wasn't there.  We could have sold for a loss and ended it, but the only people with money in the deal was me.  They had time in the deal and some money, but when I say "some" money I would say they have spent less that $5k in cash on materials to go with work they have done (and they have done some work, no argument there).

I have about $130k cash in one house and they have about $5k, so, you get why I talk about it the way I do.

Anyway, the house is rented and the monthly rent check goes to an account in my FIL's name and expenses get paid from there.  It's a break even rental house.  Which is actually a pretty good deal these days.  most of them loose money.  

If we sold now, the "net" of the deal would be a loss.  

Not explaining this very well, but I am seen as controlling jerk that doesn't understand.  I see myself as guy that has done a bunch of deals and had three "go bad", that happens.

2 of the 3 are with this family.  None of the deals with this family have worked out.

The other deal that went bad was a one time experiment with a partner, he "did his own thing" and the deal went south as well.

More later, I likely didn't make any sense.

Last:  I asked today if my FIL was an "at risk partner" or an employee.  He refused to answer, then said he was "family".  

He was part of the decision making process when each house had changes, even though now he denies that happened.  Employees don't get to make decisions about buying and selling, partners do.  If an at risk partner is in a deal that looses money, guess what, they don't get any profit because there is not any to be had.

FF

[formflier]

 

GK,

I'm a planner, wife refuses to journal or have any "record" of our decisions.  So, the best option that kinda works, when it works is to talk about the event multiple times.

Also a way to make sure we aren't forgetting anything, like the streamers I ran out for last night.  Plus with lots of people, the who, what where, matters.

When wife dysregulates and sometimes when halfway there, she has basically told me the opposite of your suggestion.

That her parents will show up anytime she wants them, and times when she doesn't want them, and demands I treat them with the respect she gives my parents , "All the time", even after the "hell" my parents put her through.

I still can't explain that one.

Here is my stance, I'm not going to hush and accept people being jammed down my throat like this (anyone think I'm still a bit triggered?   )

If they want to come over here an not deal with what FF has to say to them, perhaps they can be part of a plan.

Sigh,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF there are a lot of moving parts here- your wife, in laws and financial interactions with them. And you live close to them. This is a lot of things that can result in drama.

I agree with GK that once they showed up, bringing up that they were uninvited was not likely to do well. In addition, your wife may have invited them, so they had no idea. And they didn't just walk in for no reason- it was their grandchild's birthday and I would bet that even the child asked for them to be there.

I can understand you not wanting to have your wishes ignored, and people coming to the house without any input from you, but -- one needs to pick and choose battles. Grandparents showing up at their 3 year old grandchild's birthday is probably not a battle that could have gone anywhere but bad.

[patientandclear]

Two cents: it's not appropriate to tell anyone that they cannot bring their own parents into their own home. That is what it is to have a home. If your wife ignores your wishes and needs about time alone etc., that's something to consider re the viability of your r/ship. Maybe you can look within on the question of whether you are being a good partner when you take a position like "your parents cannot ever come here without my advance permission." Maybe try that on for size if it were reversed.

If you can't live with her occasionally having people over whom you would prefer not to have over, this is not a viable co-habitation situation. Maybe you two need to live separately.

[flourdust]

Yes, you do sound triggered ... .and stressed, and frustrated, and desperate. What can you do to take care of yourself NOW? You don't want this day to get worse, so let's think about something you can do that will get your BP down and your mind clear.

Once you've done that ... .and this second step is nothing that has to be done TODAY ... .you might want to think about why you were so triggered. When I look at your story, as an outsider, I see this sequence of events:

1. You and your wife had a "plan" for the birthday party.

2. Your wife's parents showed up unexpectedly and made themselves at home.

3. You were triggered. You went to your wife to demand changes, then you went to her parents to demand changes, and then it just went to hell.

It's step 3 there that looks out of the ordinary to me and suggests there is more going on than meets the eye. I'm an introverted person who is generally not crazy about uninvited guests. If someone shows up unexpectedly at my house, I might be a little nonplussed, but I can generally be a good host and usually even adapt to the situation and try to enjoy it. For me, the worst case scenario is that I'm just so annoyed by the intrusion that I either act withdrawn with the guests or physically withdraw to another part of the house.

Ask yourself why you were so upset with the in-laws' arrival that you tried immediately to get them out of there, as if it was a painful stimulus you had to remove. If you can figure that out, you might be better equipped for the next time it happens.

But, first -- as I said above -- self-care! You can wrestle with these questions tomorrow.

[Sunfl0wer]

Why is it that people think it is acceptable to have uninvited guests?  Is this not poor boundaries?  When others invade our boundaries do we just respond in a way to 'keep peace' vs uphold our boundaries.

Please help me understand this... .

Personally... .

My family is toxic.  If my BPD sis came to spend time at my house and refused to leave, I literally would call the police and have her removed.  I do not care if it was a party or such. 

My boundaries state:

I live in a home that is free from abuse and I take measures to ensure my (emotional, physical) safety in my home.  Persons who violate this are not welcome.

I'll be damned if someone wants to trample on that boundary.

I respect FF has made it clear on what hill the marriage will die on. 

This is his boundary. 

While he cannot kick out his wife when verbally and emotionally abusive.

I find it unacceptable to admonish him to acquiesce to abuse and alienation of his kids to avoid further abuse.

I feel his comment:

"my wife and I are working on our marriage and trying to have joint communication"

Was an excellent assertive way to communicate his feelings about the matter.

On the other side: A 3 year olds birthday party is no reason to pretend emotional abuse and alienation is acceptable.

What is going on?

Did I miss something?

[Notwendy]

I think the point I was trying to make was not that FF didn't have the right to this boundary. It was a comment on the timing/event/ and how this played out. I don't think the situation with the in laws has been determined to be toxic or that they are not welcome in the house. It is that his wife invited them instead of keeping her agreement with FF about guests.

The in laws didn't do anything wrong- as likely they were invited and assumed it was OK. The issue is between FF and his wife. By taking this up with the grandparents at this moment- it then involved them, was likely hurtful to them. They didn't just spontaneously appear when told not to. They showed up for their grandchilds birthday party.

There were choices here. One was to disinvited them which would inevitably go bad in the moment. The other is to let this slide considering the occasion was for the child. As far as I know they are not a danger to the child. Then take up the idea of the boundary and the consequences should this happen again with his wife in private. Then next time, thr consequences would be in place. Then inform in laws to check invitations with FF as well. Then if it happens again - everybody is informed about the idea that uninvited guests will be asked to leave.

Seems to me the in laws were surprised and not aware that they were not invited. The balance of th decision is about the two choices- which had the worse consequences. The choice could go either way, but if the child has a good relationship with the grandparents and their presence doesn't harm the child, there could have been the decision to deal with this later in private.

[formflier]

  "your parents cannot ever come here without my advance permission." Maybe try that on for size if it were reversed.

I did, and this is what I had set up with my parents.  If you are interested in coming over, please call first or if you drop by, don't be shocked if you hear "it's not a good time right now, please come back later".

This worked well for me and my wife for several weeks.  My Mom comes over a lot to teach D10 piano (my wife is ok with this, if anything she pushes it more than I do).

Then, my wife gets upset about it, wants it at a different time, (this was in the "listen to your wife FF" phase on here), so, I rolled with it.  My wife and Mom talked, both said they were happy, so I backed off.  The setup was that my Mom shows up roughly about same time every day, no calls, just show up.

Today, my wife complained about my Mom showing up unannounced "all the time" and denies she has anything to do with it?    

So, I did hold my family and parents to the standard of don't come unless we talk, I would check with wife before bringing them over. 

Oh, and I don't have a position that says they can't come over, ever, without permission.

Just as it would be inappropriate for me to tell me wife that people can come over, but then bar the door and lock it.

It's just as inappropriate to make plans for a certain group of people and then for one party to unilaterally impose a change.

I would feel differently if she had invited people on my side, but the reason I didn't invite my parents is it wasn't "that kind" of an event.

FF

[formflier]

For me, I considered trying to let it slide.

Hard to tell where I said "effe no, "

Trigger number 1 was when MIL showed up.  Within 2 minutes of being in the house (literally) she was "barking" at my wife to calm down, giving her orders and generally being nasty.

Wife barks back at her,

So, this is less than a shout and seems to be posturing between two BPDish women about is the boss, wife "barked down" the MIL and did as she pleased, my wife did as she pleased is what I am saying.

If they want to interact like that, their business, if it happens in our house, it's my business.  At their house I have choice to leave, same choice here, but I'm not going to be run off by BPDish women.

Yep, I will die on this hill if needed.  I hope not,

FF

[Verbena]

Your wife has made you a second-class citizen in your family, and this is intentional on her part.  As I said the other day, your wife sees it as her duty to make everyone aware of how awful you are. 

Agreements about the way the day would go regarding the birthday celebration (or agreements about the way anything will go) are really futile because your wife does not follow agreements.

I see nothing wrong with you standing up for yourself today.  It's your home, too. 

However, I do think it is unrealistic to expect anything good to come from it. 

   

[formflier]

I am kicking around some ideas on how to wrap up our business relationship. 

None of the ideas I am "happy" with, but with the ridiculous claims that were made today about what was still owed, I need to erect a financial boundary and have a document that settles all claims and clarifies that any future commitments will be made in writing.

I can quit claim my interest in the property and save a lot of heartache if I get something in return that clarifies things, that nothing else is owed.

One reason I have been dragging my feet to sell the rental is it will likely be a net loss or break even, counting the money that brother in law took out it will definitely be a loss.

Anyway, it's not really about the money, it's a principle. 

If I can get the relationship to the point where the only tie is that they are grandparents, that will be much better.

FF

[formflier]

To notwendys comment about dealing in private.  My opening line to them was that I would like to find time, later, for adults to talk in private about things.

I can't give exact quote, but answer was there is no problem so no need to talk, I have sent several requests in the past to meet with FIL about issues and he has ignored and sent word through my wife and others that he won't talk.

He is happy to talk with me about golf, kids or to ask me a question.  Any talk the other way about accountability in the business he will refuse to discuss or have radically different view.  Such as today, "I have sent a dime, ". When I ask what that means, complete word salad.  His account isn't his account because I "made him" get it, huh?

Do I know how to log into account for oversight, yep.  But a bank employee would look at account and see FIL name only.  FIL didn't want to fool with checking up on money after a while, so I could either let it go, or my wife and I followed up on things.

It's been a troubled situation for a while. 

There is a reason he doesn't have much to show for his years of work.  Both their oldest two kids have gone through multiple bankruptcy situations and I suspect most of the money that left these deals, went to bail out my wife's brother and sister.

Long way of saying, there is no talking it out in private. 

That is done in my family all the time, it is not done in my wife's family.  Just not done.



FF

[formflier]

There is also a fundamental disbelief in my wife's family that I am disabled.  

On the one hand they say they are worried about my health and think I should "try" to get better.  But scoff at the notion that I have trouble sleeping.  No effort for exact quote here, but the theory is I use my VA paperwork/status as a method to "control" my family and if I really cared about them and wasn't so focused on myself that I would have gone somewhere else to sleep to let them "live".  Literally they laughed at the idea that I have special sleep needs, laughed.

I honestly don't think my wife realizes or thinks I have any issues.  Sure, sometimes she will "admit" or say I have issues, it's really weird.

I just thought of this because I finally got around to opening todays mail.  My approval for a disabled license plate came through today.  There are some other benefits to state parks that go with that.  I was showing my wife the letter, really excited about our access to state parks.  

She is reading the letter and exclaims, and I mean exclaims, "Oh my God, you are getting a handicapped plate? Why?"

I stare for a bit, point at the letter and where it talks about "mobility disorders", both feet, 1 knee rated, other knee hurts but because of rules VA couldn't rate it (pain is not a disability), paralysis of some kind of nerve going down my leg, and arthritis in my lower back.

She kinda says, ohh,

So, is there perhaps and odd kind of paranoia disorder where you believe things that aren't real (love children, secret families, murder plots with sex toys, ) but also ignore certain parts of reality.  

She has seen my immense medical record, (makes quite a thud) when putting the entire thing down on a table (good thing there are digital copies now), has been to many appointments, heard directly from Drs mouths about sleep issues, good sleep hygiene, bad joints, etc etc  

FF

[HurtinNW]

Stepping back, I think you know that living so close to her toxic family is not good for her or your marriage. They fed her poison, she feeds it back... .it is one big ugly nest of nasty. And it won't change because of your presence.

I honestly don't think you can do anything about her family and their interactions unless she is on board. For whatever reason she is incapable of doing that, especially in proximity to them.

What is happening is you are getting sucked into the swirl of dysfunction... .arguing over whether you are disabled. Fighting over who can come to a party. Defending and JADE ing all over the place. Dancing with sugar ray, having your sanity called into question, being mocked for needing sleep... .

You are standing up for yourself, yes, but my opinion on an ever-shrinking island where you are losing sight of the shore.

I lovingly suggest stepping back and looking at the big picture. You cannot control these people or your wife in relationship with them.

I do so relate to your feelings. My family did this kind of crazy making all the time. My favorite was when I told my mother not to come by when I had a new foster child in the house. The next thing she was on my porch, one of my enabling brothers next to her, and she literally ran in my house and grabbed the baby as if protecting it from me.

Sometimes the only answer beyond acceptance is distance. Is there any way you and your wife and kids can move? I apologize if this has been asked before.

[Grey Kitty]

FF, when you first expressed the concern that your MIL/FIL showed up in a way that was against the prior plans you made with your wife... .I didn't think that was a hill worth dying on... .or that once they arrived there was any way of resolving that situation without making things worse.

And I'm pretty sure that expressing that as "the problem" when you talked either to them or your wife, you didn't do yourself any favors.

Trigger number 1 was when MIL showed up.  Within 2 minutes of being in the house (literally) she was "barking" at my wife to calm down... .giving her orders and generally being nasty.

Wife barks back at her... .

So... this is less than a shout and seems to be posturing between two BPDish women about is the boss... .wife "barked down" the MIL and did as she pleased... .my wife did as she pleased is what I am saying.

If they want to interact like that... their business... .if it happens in our house... .it's my business.  At their house I have choice to leave... .same choice here... .but I'm not going to be run off by BPDish women.

This issue... .is a valid one, with the additional issue that your kids are being exposed to this kind of example.

HOW to defuse that situation, or make it clear that such behavior isn't acceptable in your house is messier. A lot messier. The biggest problem is that your issue is how MIL was treating your wife, and it is pretty much impossible to protect one adult from another in that kind of situation. (As opposed to protecting children from that kind of situation)

[patientandclear]

Why is it that people think it is acceptable to have uninvited guests?  Is this not poor boundaries?  When others invade our boundaries do we just respond in a way to 'keep peace' vs uphold our boundaries.

Please help me understand this... .

Personally... .

My family is toxic.  If my BPD sis came to spend time at my house and refused to leave, I literally would call the police and have her removed.  I do not care if it was a party or such.  

My boundaries state:

I live in a home that is free from abuse and I take measures to ensure my (emotional, physical) safety in my home.  Persons who violate this are not welcome.

I'll be damned if someone wants to trample on that boundary.

I respect FF has made it clear on what hill the marriage will die on.  

This is his boundary.  

While he cannot kick out his wife when verbally and emotionally abusive.

I find it unacceptable to admonish him to acquiesce to abuse and alienation of his kids to avoid further abuse.

I feel his comment:

"my wife and I are working on our marriage and trying to have joint communication"

Was an excellent assertive way to communicate his feelings about the matter.

On the other side: A 3 year olds birthday party is no reason to pretend emotional abuse and alienation is acceptable.

What is going on?

Did I miss something?

FF's wife has a right to invite people to her home. Which is also FF's home. But it is also her home. My understanding here is not the the family was uninvited--just not invited by FF and done without his awareness.

FF, sounds to me as though a bunch of things came bubbling up for you and a little breathing space and reflection may re-define what exactly the "hill" that is worth dying on is. I doubt it is inviting parents without advance consultation. But there seem to be other things in play for you as well, in this incident.

[Notwendy]

I agree that there are a lot of issues that are attached to this but I think this is a main one:  FF and wife had a plan, the wife didn't stick to the agreement. This has happened multiple times. It has to be frustrating to feel that agreements are broken repeatedly.

FF has stated that this is the hill he would put his marriage on- but I think this incident is just one of the ways this issue has played out- FF feeling he has no say in family matters when his input to an agreement is ignored.

The grandparents showed up for the private party, but they may have done so thinking they were invited. The issue is that FF and his wife made a plan, then that plan was changed.

Then there was a mix of people and a situation that would likely have turned into an emotionally charged event. FF's boundaries were broken. Grandparents were likely upset, and surprised, and then the conflict with FF wife over the broken plans. I don't blame FF for being upset and taking action, but the situation was one that was not likely to go well. Sounds also like some kitchen sinking- grandparents bringing up other topics of conflict/resentment/misunderstanding once they were upset.

I recall being unable to enforce boundaries with my parents. My mother did what she wanted, and my father enforced that. At events like family get togethers, we would either let things slide or if we enforced boundaries, face an angry blow up. Being the kind of family we were- enmeshed, co-dependent on mom, going against mom's wishes was treated as if we had done something terrible. It was frightening to face this kind of anger and rejection from my parents. Before understanding the dynamics, I would be trying as hard as I could to either get their approval/acceptance or to make amends and be accepted again.

In a nutshell, saying "no" to my parents resulted in the kind of scenario FF faced. It does not surprise me that FF wife may have issues with saying "no" to her parents, and other people who she thinks she needs to say yes to, even if this violates a boundary with FF. With parents living close by, this may be a huge challenge.

In my case, it was up to me to enact boundaries with my own FOO. I don't know if I would have had any input to my in laws. Each family has its own dynamics. But my relationship with them was hard for me to navigate, and it was just me and them. My H was not involved in this, but they didn't live close to us so this issue didn't impede on his privacy as much.  Add a spouse to the mix, and you have a triangle. In law, their child, spouse, and there you have a set up for drama.

If the grandparents thought they were invited, then this would be a shock to any grandparent, but with dysfunctional grandparents, it would likely be messy. Now they are in the midst of this issue. But the main issue is the broken agreement with FF and his wife.

[formflier]

  Is there any way you and your wife and kids can move? I apologize if this has been asked before.

Not really,

$$ is issue at the moment.   Also it is unlikely that wife would ever agree to this. 

Reality, she can move whenever she wants, I can move whenever I want.  The issue is the kids. 

Who knows if it ever comes out in counseling or other places, but my guess is that my wife went into a mode this past fall that "ends justifies the means", that she will get to live close to her parents no matter the cost. 

So, she would say whatever she had to say in order to get here with the understanding (in her mind) that she can change the rules and do selective remembering later.

I'll never know for sure, but remember, she was raised by and taught by a woman that believes "It is ok to sin in the process to correct someone, if (the person sinning) knows in their heart that the only reason they are sinning is to help the other person see their sin."    To me, that's "ends justifies the means" or  "i can do no wrong".

So, I can see my wife feel morally ok lying to me about how the house will be set up (where I sleep and where noise is made) and tons of other issues.

FF

[formflier]

FF has stated that this is the hill he would put his marriage on- but I think this incident is just one of the ways this issue has played out- FF feeling he has no say in family matters when his input to an agreement is ignored.

Yep, that's pretty much it.  Couple this with the choices of counseling that my wife has picked and the framework of marriage that my wife wants us to have (with husband as the final say) and it is a really curious situation.

Perhaps you can "back up" the situation or the "hill" to one of "I will no lead a life where there is no integrity", I'm not going to say our marriage is one thing (pretend) and actually it is another.

Not sure, perhaps that is good topic that deserves its own thread. 

And, listen, I totally get it that in real life "sometimes" things like this happen.  In my marriage "sometimes" we act like normal married people, discuss things, make a plan, and that happens.

It likely happens enough to give me "intermittent reinforcement" to continue trying. 

Also, there is a lot about this happening in "my house" (my residence).  My wife and her family can talk to each other all they want and in whatever manner they want at MIL house, or other places.  If kids are present they can still make this choice and perhaps I will never know.

But for "it" to show up in "my house", uninvited, and expect me to stay quiet, no. 

Yes, once things got going there was a lot of "kitchen sinking".  In a family where there are no calm discussions that is the only way of "peeking into their world" that I know of.  To the question of is it ok for MIL to "bark" at my wife and fire back and forth (trying to be accurate here, saying they were yelling would be an overstatement), they are family and that is what families do,

NO,  

FF

[Notwendy]

This thread touches on several topics of conflict.

To break out of our own FOO dysfunctional dynamics, we have to first see them as such, and then be motivated to change. This also includes being able to withstand the consequences. Families are in a sort of steady state, and if one member changes, this disrupts the balance. Family members react by drawing the person back in or possibly excluding them. In addition, our FOO behaviors feel normal to us. It is what we are most familiar with. It may concern you to see MIL barking at your wife, but that could be something she sees as normal.

My mother also dismissed these things as " all families fight". Sure all families have disagreements, but not all behave like she did. I recall an incident when I was a teen, and I heard my mother arguing with her father. I recall thinking she sounded like a bratty teen age girl- (and I was the teen age girl, she was in her 40's)I wouldn't have yelled at my parents like that. It sounded terrible to me. But maybe that was their "normal".

It took me a long time to look at the influence of my FOO on my behavior. Even though I didn't think their behavior was normal, I was not aware of how enmeshed I was even knowing that. When I actually did stand up to them, the reaction was extreme- anger, raging, painted black, disowned. It felt very hurtful at the time. It was hard to do. And I don't have BPD.

So back to this issue. You put a boundary on the visit, and had an agreement with your wife about it. Yet, this involved your wife honoring you by enforcing a boundary on her parents. This involves asking a disordered person with poor boundaries, enmeshed in her family to enforce a boundary in a family with poor boundaries and to withstand their reaction? Sure, you have a right to this boundary and it is the right thing to do, but is this something your wife can even do?

I'm not defending her position but pointing out that your wife's FOO's family system has been in place long before she met you. These patterns are not easy to change.

[Grey Kitty]

Who knows if it ever comes out in counseling or other places, but my guess is that my wife went into a mode this past fall that "ends justifies the means"... .that she will get to live close to her parents no matter the cost. 

So, she would say whatever she had to say in order to get here with the understanding (in her mind) that she can change the rules and do selective remembering later.

I'll never know for sure... .but remember... she was raised by and taught by a woman that believes "It is ok to sin in the process to correct someone, if (the person sinning) knows in their heart that the only reason they are sinning is to help the other person see their sin."    To me... .that's "ends justifies the means" or  "i can do no wrong".

So, I can see my wife feel morally ok lying to me about how the house will be set up (where I sleep and where noise is made) and tons of other issues.

FF, this raises a question about your wife.

She clearly will revise history and break agreements. This is part of her mental illness.

Some people (typically more BPD-ish) will actually believe what they are saying. They believe that history changed when they are telling you about it. They believe that the agreement they broke wasn't one they made in the first place.

Other people (typically more NPD-ish) will tell lies to manipulate people, fully knowing that their goal is to manipulate the other person, and fully aware that it is a lie.

There may be shades of grey, and people do crazy stuff when they start rationalizing their own behavior.

Your MIL's belief isn't secret, is it?

"It is ok to sin in the process to correct someone, if (the person sinning) knows in their heart that the only reason they are sinning is to help the other person see their sin."

I'm sure you've talked about this with your wife a few times. Does your wife say that she agrees, disagrees, or does she go back and forth, or have some interesting nuanced middle ground on this subject?

As you said, you'll never know for sure, but you do know your wife very well. Take a guess.

Do you think she makes agreements with you in good faith? (And then feels differently and acts differently instead of following them)

Or do you think she says whatever she has to to shut you up, knowing she will break it, and expect to get away with it?

[Notwendy]

Some people (typically more BPD-ish) will actually believe what they are saying. They believe that history changed when they are telling you about it. They believe that the agreement they broke wasn't one they made in the first place.

Other people (typically more NPD-ish) will tell lies to manipulate people, fully knowing that their goal is to manipulate the other person, and fully aware that it is a lie.

There may be shades of grey, and people do crazy stuff when they start rationalizing their own behavior.

I think we all rationalize our own behavior to some extent. My mother with BPD does both these things- revise history and deliberately lie to get what she wants. I don't think her intent is "evil" in either one. The revision of history seems to be a way to deal with the shame of doing something wrong- and lying to get what she wants is impulsiveness- she wants what she wants when she wants it and will do what it takes to get it.

Which could involve agreeing to something in the moment, just to get the other person to be quiet. Then, when she wants something, she does whatever anyway.

I agree that boundaries are important, because in my FOO, saying no to her was forbidden and so was reminding her of any transgressions. So she did what she wanted without being accountable, and she got used to that.

As to your MIL morality. Our own personal concepts of God are formed in our psyche, as God is an abstract concept. Yes, there are rules, and writings, but it is clear from the variety of houses of worship in every religion that these writings are interpreted differently by different people. Also, a relationship with God, is a relationship. A dysfunctional person may also have a dysfunctional relationship with God.

I don't think it is possible to completely understand the spiritual thinking of anyone- especially someone who is disordered. However, one can deal with the behaviors.

[empath]

Revising history... .

Last week, my h had been planning something for a few weeks,  but he didn't tell me about it until the last minute - as he was on the way out the door after I asked a couple of levels of questions. I said that I was very uncomfortable with what he was planning because I was unable to be there. He went ahead and did it anyway. When we were talking about it later, he asked me why he can't seem to remember what I say. I didn't say that it is because he has disordered thoughts processes.

My h has difficulty telling his parents no - they can't do something. It seems like it would be going against the way he was raised - parents were controlling /abusive. But, not communicating a change of plans is a problem for me too.

[Sunfl0wer]

I said that I was very uncomfortable with what he was planning because I was unable to be there. He went ahead and did it anyway. When we were talking about it later, he asked me why he can't seem to remember what I say.

I think we all have moments where we do this.

Here is how I relate to it... .

I have had moments engaging in a conversation when I am feeling upset and angry.

( Of course not lately! )

During the conversation I am so aware of my own upsetness and my own goal that I am not truly present or really listening to the other persons meaning.  I am just listening to their words and actually waiting my turn to speak vs actually listening. One of those argument conversations where I am just trying to prove a point. (Which never happens anymore  ) I have actually been not able to recall their words because I was unable to be receptive to their perspective at the moment... .while in hyperfocus overdrive of 'winning' a point.

I think most of us can relate to this no?

Actually just waiting for your turn to speak vs really listening for understanding?

Now take that same idea and add raw BPD emotion and fear to the inner experience.  

It now seems impossible for them to recall!  (Imo)

... .

We probably cannot relate because... .

Our perspective during a heated argument:  we are considering both our own perspective and the other persons during the 'negotiation' process, thus storing our experience to memory... .in a more dynamic way.

Their perspective: They are consumed with maintaining their 'identity' or perspective, that there is no room to process another.  They recall maybe only recall their inner experience without considering the other... .as it was invisible to them in a way... .their own emotions just to loud to hear another.

So, we are confused because it is like the parable of the elephant and the blind men.  We are both feeling an elephant, but we feel an ear, she feels a foot.  We believe that a foot exists and accept it some, but she can only grasp what she can feel and doesn't widen her perspective.

[formflier]

  So she did what she wanted without being accountable, and she got used to that.

This was opposite of how I was raised.  Repeatedly my father taught me to be accountable to myself first, to hold myself to a higher standard than the world around me, and if there was an honest disagreement or a booboo and the other person is behaving honorably (not accusing, but genuinely seeking resolution), that I was to be "more than fair" or to "put myself at disadvantage" in the settlement.

Accountability and "respect" are bad words in my wife's FOO.  Several times I mentioned respect and my FIL said "there is that word again, respect", and laughed, I kid you not, laughed.

Those that have "gotten to know me" on these board likely realize I don't bat an eye at demanding and giving appropriate respect (very different than agreeing or liking).  (remember the bad brake buggy caper?)

It's one thing for me to "persecute" them for their views and practices.  That would be me going to their house and demanding a standard of behavior from them, and that would be disrespecting their boundaries, their house.

It's another thing for me to keep quiet when their "stuff" shows up in my home, with me present, in front of my kids (or combinations of that).  So, perhaps in front of my kids at their house it would be appropriate for me to "say something".

Anyway, I'm also a action guy.   I've emailed my lawyer and his staff in the state where the rental home is.  Will be preparing a settlement offer and quit claim of my interest.

I need to simplify my life with my wife's FOO.  Boundaries will be much easier when we have no "need" to talk to each other.

FF

[formflier]

Do you think she makes agreements with you in good faith? (And then feels differently and acts differently instead of following them)

Or do you think she says whatever she has to to shut you up, knowing she will break it, and expect to get away with it?

Grey,

You are right, I do think I know my wife pretty well and she believes she knows me well.  I think backing up to the "big picture" view is that I am no longer behaving as the man she "knows".  The one that pretty much let her do whatever for 15 years of good and 4-5 years of bad and then 2ish years of me making a conscious effort to change "my side" of the street, regardless of her desires or behavior.

My wife has a huge loyal streak in her.  In her own way she is dedicated to me, the marriage and her family.  If she ever pulled a run off by herself thing and abandon the family, I would be really worried, because that is out of character for her.

I don't think she is NPD ish.  Her sister is.  Sister's nickname growing up was "Sneaky Snake".  I mean, what kind of people honor that and make that funny? 

I honestly believe that my wife is genuine when she makes deals.  I also believe that I can tell when she is "hyped up" and "just saying stuff". 

Many times when she acts differently than agreed she will blame her actions on me or something else.  Accountability is rare,

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I honestly believe that my wife is genuine when she makes deals.  I also believe that I can tell when she is "hyped up" and "just saying stuff". 

Many times when she acts differently than agreed she will blame her actions on me or something else.  Accountability is rare... .

Radical acceptance... .she is who she is. Genuine and full of good intentions... .then overwhelmed by feelings, impulsivity, or the drama from her FOO (which she lacks the skills to detach from)... .

... .and probably feels too much shame and guilt to be able to admit to behaving badly or breaking an agreement, so she comes up with a way to place the blame elsewhere. (Probably not even realizing she does it)

This was opposite of how I was raised.  Repeatedly my father taught me to be accountable to myself first, to hold myself to a higher standard than the world around me [... .]

Accountability and "respect" are bad words in my wife's FOO.  Several times I mentioned respect and my FIL said "there is that word again... .respect"... .and laughed... .I kid you not... .laughed.

[... .]

I need to simplify my life with my wife's FOO.  Boundaries will be much easier when we have no "need" to talk to each other.

I believe that working on boundaries with your wife's FOO is one of your top jobs (and one of your toughest)

That your some of your deepest values are antithetical to theirs makes dealing with them very triggering for you, and that makes this job harder.   Much harder.

Your wife desperately needs boundaries with her FOO as well. If she had good boundaries with them, many of the problems you experience wouldn't happen.

Time for MORE radical acceptance on your part... .your wife doesn't have those boundary enforcement skills, and/or cannot apply the ones she does have with her FOO.

And if you try to suggest she behave better with them isn't going to help--Instead, it distracts her from the conflict and drama with her family... .by turning it into a fight between you and her. However, if you model good boundaries, both with her and with her FOO, eventually she may notice and pick up on it. You can always hope!

And yes, I absolutely agree about financial dealings--Don't start any new financial partnerships with her FOO, and work on reducing your exposure / ending the ones you do have... .with the least conflict and drama created you can manage. (Sigh... .they seem to be good at creating it!)