Separated two months ... divorce or "discernment counseling"?

[flourdust]

My dBPDw and I have been separated for almost two months.

She moved out of the house and found a small apartment. She has no source of income, so I am paying for everything. It's a strain on our finances, but obviously less so than divorce will be. We have a separation contract (not legally binding) that she drafted that says we are to try to work on our marriage through counseling while separated.

Our D10 lives with me and spends every other weekend at the wife's place, as well as seeing her after school and a few nights/week for dinner.

Overall, this has been a big improvement on my quality of life. I'm able to take care of myself, my daughter, and our home with less stress than I was experiencing before. Not having daily conflict with my wife is a tremendous boost to my mental health.

Our interactions have been mostly email, some text, and some phone or in-person conversations. I generally try to keep most interactions through email, which I think is most likely to keep the emotional temperature down. She's not happy about this, because I think she unrealistically sees us as needing to interact in person a lot to improve our relationship, even though our in-person interactions have been very toxic.

Her communication is sometimes friendly and reasonable, sometimes cold and precise, and sometimes blaming and emotional. Keeping this at arm's length as much as I can is really helping me. There have been a few in-person blowups. Not being physically in each other's presence that much keeps the frequency of these down a LOT.

We continued to see our MC. At our last session, he basically fired us. I came into the session with no particular expectations, and my wife came in angry and upset. She had sent some kind of email to the MC, and she wanted him to take the lead in ... .chastising me, I think. It's not really clear, because she was rambling on during the session, and every time I spoke, she cut me off just a few words in. She spent a lot of the session arguing with the MC while I watched. At the end, he said that he thought our only options were to divorce or seek more intensive counseling than he could provide.

I agreed -- on the spot -- to seek out the replacement counseling. Now, I'm not crazy about this idea. I think that MC has been a waste of time, and I blame her for that. There's nothing that she will change or compromise on, and she defaults to saying that she has "changed hundreds of things already" and her T and DBT program say she's making amazing progress, so all the problems must be mine. (According to her, my problems include earning the verbal abuse she gives me.)

My own agenda has been buying time to prepare for divorce. I haven't hired an attorney, but I have met with a few and begun preparing paperwork to minimize legal costs. I think I'll be ready to hire & file within a week or two, if that's my final decision.

When researching MCs, I came across a few who specialize in something I hadn't heard of before -- discernment counseling. It's basically a very short program (five sessions or fewer) where you and your spouse meet with counselors together and individually to explore if you should divorce or develop a short-term concrete plan for improving the marriage. It actually sounds like it could be a really appropriate program for people in our situation, with the VERY BIG caveat that the underlying assumption is that both partners are basically rational. Not really the case for someone with BPD.

Has anyone tried discernment counseling or anything similar? Do you think this might be worthwhile? Take a look at these general descriptions of the program:

www.cehd.umn.edu/fsos/projects/mcb/couples.asp

[Grey Kitty]

When researching MCs, I came across a few who specialize in something I hadn't heard of before -- discernment counseling. It's basically a very short program (five sessions or fewer) where you and your spouse meet with counselors together and individually to explore if you should divorce or develop a short-term concrete plan for improving the marriage. It actually sounds like it could be a really appropriate program for people in our situation, with the VERY BIG caveat that the underlying assumption is that both partners are basically rational. Not really the case for someone with BPD.

I think you nailed it in your last sentence, but I have no experience with that kind of MC.

As a side note, my marriage ended with ~5 sessions with an MC, where my wife concluded she didn't want to be in a marriage with me. However my wife had already healed/recovered a lot from the BPD traits that sent me to this community a couple years before that. I'd say our breakup was more like two non-'s breaking up than a non- and a pwBPD.

My only thought of hope comes from these two things:

Overall, this has been a big improvement on my quality of life. I'm able to take care of myself, my daughter, and our home with less stress than I was experiencing before. Not having daily conflict with my wife is a tremendous boost to my mental health.

There's nothing that she will change or compromise on, and she defaults to saying that she has "changed hundreds of things already" and her T and DBT program say she's making amazing progress, so all the problems must be mine.

You are doing better in the status quo (separated, limited contact)

Your wife is actively in DBT. (That she thinks she's done and you are the problem isn't the point... .the point is she is still working on it, and this provides some hope she could get past it)

... .so what about a third option: Keep going the way you are going?

If you are doing this because it is "cheaper than divorce" I recommend you get better opinions on what divorce looks like and will ultimately cost you, and whether delaying it will save you money or cost you money... .in other words, talk to a lawyer, and post on the legal board here!

[Cat Familiar]

I think you know what you want to do as well as the reality of who you're dealing with. In a perfect world, she could change back to the person you met and fell in love with, but I don't think you are under any illusions of that happening.

Perhaps the discernment counseling would be an appropriate way to shut the door on this relationship or you might be surprised that there is possibly some reason you might want to give it another go. Probably the best reason for you to participate in this would be to see from a structural perspective any patterns you might not be aware of in how you ended up at this point.

For so many of us who have married or enmeshed with BPD partners, we tend to repeat the experience again with another one. I was aware of that tendency when I got divorced and I did therapy to work on my FOO stuff. Even though I was reluctant to commit to a relationship for many years, but when I did, guess what? I found another pwBPD, only this one is BPDlite. Much better experience, but maybe I should have stayed in therapy longer.

[flourdust]

Thanks. We'll see what my wife says. I'm willing to explore this -- I think it might be valuable to me to get an outside perspective on where this marriage needs to go. Another possible upside is that it might help my wife ease into some acceptance around divorce, and maybe even reduce the conflict in negotiation. (Call me a dreamer... .)

[formflier]

 

My gut reaction is for you to stick with the situation you have for a while.  Perhaps turn it into a legal separation.

It sounds like conflict has been reduced, that is good. 

Is there a way to focus on continued reduction in conflict?  What would that look like?

FF

[flourdust]

My gut reaction is for you to stick with the situation you have for a while.  Perhaps turn it into a legal separation.

Why? Other than your own desire to be a "stayer," that is?

[formflier]

 

That is it cheaper and while she is still married to you, it appears to me that you have more control over funds.

IF, you can get full physical and legal custody and IF you don't have to pay alimony, then I might change my mind.  Would probably change my mind.

Note.  I'm not at all saying don't prep for divorce, get paperwork ready, investigate all the avenues.  I have done that in a couple states.

I believe I have seen several divorced parents with a pwBPD partner say that divorce is exchanging 1 set of BPD problems for another.  So, if you are "ok" with where things are at, be reluctant to "jump into the frying pan" from the pot of hot water.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't have personal experience with discernment T, but I read the website info and a couple of things looked interesting to me.

One is that it is a state supported program aimed at helping families and children in the condition of possible divorce which makes me think one goal is to reduce the conflict between parents regardless of if they stay married or not.

Another is that it isn't focused on fixing the problems or goal oriented to repair or divorce, but I think a platform to assess the options. It is short term- so not likely to be "his story" "her story" couples bashing each other out sessions but a narrower focus.

Although the idea of divorce was not on the table when we went to MC, the MC brought up a good point: whatever the outcome, learning to communicate better would benefit us. When a couple in conflict divorce, they tend to play this out in the legal system- dragging this out between lawyers. That not only gets expensive, but doesn't end the dysfunction. Then the couple goes on to be dysfunctional over kids, custody. The decision to leave or stay is an important one to consider. Neither option is easy- both will have good aspects and also challenges. If leaving is the best decision, then if you have kids, there will still be a relationship of some sorts with the other parent. So dealing with conflict could be a benefit in both cases.

So, if this discernment counseling can help with either the marriage, or if the marriage ends, the conflict during and after a divorce, it could be a good thing no matter what happens.

[flourdust]

That is it cheaper and while she is still married to you, it appears to me that you have more control over funds.

IF... .you can get full physical and legal custody and IF you don't have to pay alimony, then I might change my mind.  Would probably change my mind.

Note.  I'm not at all saying don't prep for divorce, get paperwork ready, investigate all the avenues.  I have done that in a couple states.

I believe I have seen several divorced parents with a pwBPD partner say that divorce is exchanging 1 set of BPD problems for another.  So, if you are "ok" with where things are at, be reluctant to "jump into the frying pan" from the pot of hot water.

Thanks for clarifying. I think you've hit on a number of issues that leave me still hesitating to pull the trigger on divorce:

• Financially, divorce will be a hit. There really isn't any way to know for sure if it's a belt-tightening hit or a hit that would require some big changes in lifestyle that I would be unhappy with. I can foresee a scenario where I keep and can afford the house and take a moderate loss in retirement funds, or another scenario where I have to sell the house and still struggle to make ends meet with maintenance and child support obligations. There's just no way to know which would happen.



• Right now, paying for two households is a net loss every month (the overall cost is more than I make). But it's a trickle of loss compared to the big hit of divorce costs. So I may be trading mild (but continuous) pain now for one big, quick pain later. But this isn't something I can sustain for very long. Having two households will wipe me out financially just as much as divorce would; it only takes longer.



• Custody is another big question mark. In my state, my best case realistic scenario is joint legal custody and a physical custody split of 75% me/25% her. (It is possible to get 100% physical custody, but it would require significant evidence of abuse and other problems. It's something I MIGHT be able to prove about her, but only by playing extreme hardball in court.)

So, yeah, procrastinating for now with the status quo has some appeal.

Another is that it isn't focused on fixing the problems or goal oriented to repair or divorce, but I think a platform to assess the options. It is short term- so not likely to be "his story" "her story" couples bashing each other out sessions but a narrower focus.

Although the idea of divorce was not on the table when we went to MC, the MC brought up a good point: whatever the outcome, learning to communicate better would benefit us. When a couple in conflict divorce, they tend to play this out in the legal system- dragging this out between lawyers. That not only gets expensive, but doesn't end the dysfunction. Then the couple goes on to be dysfunctional over kids, custody. The decision to leave or stay is an important one to consider. Neither option is easy- both will have good aspects and also challenges. If leaving is the best decision, then if you have kids, there will still be a relationship of some sorts with the other parent. So dealing with conflict could be a benefit in both cases.

So, if this discernment counseling can help with either the marriage, or if the marriage ends, the conflict during and after a divorce, it could be a good thing no matter what happens.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking. It's five sessions, very structured, with the intent to provide some guidance on what our realistic next steps are.

[Grey Kitty]

I think staying married bleeding money slowly in two households instead of going through divorce sounds like a poor long-term plan... .but I can see short-term advantages of it.

1. You have primary/majority physical custody now. Having that established before filing will help you keep it, and since courts tend to favor mothers over fathers in these issues you want all the help you can get. [NOTE: Document this!]

2. If you are able to reconcile, that is obviously much much cheaper, so leaving the door open a little longer is good, and not slamming it on her foot if she's trying to keep a foot in the door is also good.

And one big (potential) disadvantage. If the dual households kill your finances, how can you even afford lawyers/etc. to do the divorce without getting taken to the cleaners when it finally comes?

... .meanwhile... .what would divorce look like?

You say she has no means of income. Has she worked before? Is she capable of holding down a job? Was she a stay at home mom? (Even if you have been doing a great deal of parenting work, or more than she did)

Do you expect to have spousal maintenance/alimony awarded to her?

Do you think she will want custody, either because she wants to be a parent, she wants to take this from you, or she sees the financial benefits to having primary custody and wants this?

[formflier]

I would also ask you to think really hard about "Is you situation stable" and "can you live with this".

Note:  Not asking if you are "happy" about it.

With a stable situation I think you can turn your focus to your daughter and to you.


In my situation, I'm still not stable although I think I see is getting to a "new normal".   Once we get there I will make a hard decision about "can I do this"

I hope my train of thought on this makes sense.

Notwendy writes really well about "balance" in a r/s.  My thoughts are similar.

If you are stable, divorce will unstablize.  If you are not stable, then I would pick a time frame and I would definitely push for discernment counseling. 

Divorce will bring stability to things eventually.

My brother in law (ex now) said it took about 3 years for things to get reasonable and he is now 8 years out and is enjoying his life, he is happy.

BPDish high conflict divorce, affair just before that.  Things aren't great now and kids are messed up, but his life is happy and he has accepted things.

FF

[flourdust]

I think staying married bleeding money slowly in two households instead of going through divorce sounds like a poor long-term plan... .but I can see short-term advantages of it.

Yes, exactly.

1. You have primary/majority physical custody now. Having that established before filing will help you keep it, and since courts tend to favor mothers over fathers in these issues you want all the help you can get. [NOTE: Document this!]

Can you say a little bit more about this? I think I have it documented, in that we have a written separation agreement that basically spells out where D10 is spending her time, and we have a calendar app that has D10's nights with the wife marked. Is there more I should be doing?

2. If you are able to reconcile, that is obviously much much cheaper, so leaving the door open a little longer is good, and not slamming it on her foot if she's trying to keep a foot in the door is also good.

Right.

And one big (potential) disadvantage. If the dual households kill your finances, how can you even afford lawyers/etc. to do the divorce without getting taken to the cleaners when it finally comes?

I figure we'll have enough in savings to cover initial retainers. If we go much beyond that, though, it's going to be time to come up with more money from retirement funds, refinancing the house, loans from family, that sort of thing.

... .meanwhile... .what would divorce look like?

You say she has no means of income. Has she worked before? Is she capable of holding down a job? Was she a stay at home mom? (Even if you have been doing a great deal of parenting work, or more than she did)

She can work. In the distant past, she's even held down full-time high-paying jobs for multiple years (despite BPD conflicts at work). Those were before her brain injury. Since then, she's worked part-time jobs but for no more than a few months at a stretch. She's also applied for disability and has a hearing scheduled next month.

I wonder how a judge would view this. If she gets disability, then she has a source of income. If her claim is rejected, then doesn't that say she is capable of work and so she needs to get a job?

Do you expect to have spousal maintenance/alimony awarded to her?

I've been advised to expect around 2-3 years of maintenance to be awarded, but there are no state guidelines for the amount. I've been trying to prepare my argument by setting budgets for us that I can live with (having her out of the house living on a budget hopefully supports that narrative).

Do you think she will want custody, either because she wants to be a parent, she wants to take this from you, or she sees the financial benefits to having primary custody and wants this?

Yes, I expect this to be the biggest source of contention. I think she's going to want more custody than I'm willing to give her. I also think that I've got enough evidence to win that battle, but it won't be pretty or amicable. (There really isn't any way to show documentation that someone is an inadequate parent and have them come out feeling all warm and fuzzy afterwards.)

[flourdust]

I would also ask you to think really hard about "Is you situation stable" and "can you live with this".

Note:  Not asking if you are "happy" about it.

With a stable situation I think you can turn your focus to your daughter and to you.

Yes, that's a really good question.

I think the situation is unstable. What makes it unstable is that my wife is unhappy with the separation (although she proposed it). She can get emotional and threaten to move back in or make me move out. She tries to push for rapid changes that aren't realistic.

So, I feel that while the living situation is stable, it's dependent on her continuing to follow the separation agreement -- and her compliance with that is not stable at all and could easily be upended.

[formflier]

Ahh, I see.  Need to sit with a lawyer ASAP.  Show him what you have.

Also discuss post nuptual agreement while there.

My guess is that a separation agreement is what you need. 

But, if you modify the separation agreement in exchange for a post nuptual that limits or eliminates your financial obligations to her in a divorce,   Something to think about.

Also, let me modify my question.  Are you and your daughter stable? 

Goes without saying that the pwBPD is not,

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You sound like you are making good choices... .but let me suggest:

1. Post about your separation/custody situation in detail on the legal board here. I'm not an expert, having only started working on a divorce I expect we will come to agreement before filing and perhaps not even need a lawyer. Nothing like what you could have ahead of you. The senior folks on that board have been through it all.

2. Talk to a lawyer ASAP. (You might ask about how to pick one on the legal board... .if this turns into a high-conflict divorce, you will need a special lawyer to handle it.

Once you have good legal advice, you will understand how your actions and choices now can help you should it turn into a battle.

[flourdust]

Ahh... I see.  Need to sit with a lawyer ASAP.  Show him what you have.

Also discuss post nuptual agreement while there.

My guess is that a separation agreement is what you need. 

But, if you modify the separation agreement in exchange for a post nuptual that limits or eliminates your financial obligations to her in a divorce... .  Something to think about.

I'll have to ask about that. I've been thinking that when I do engage an attorney, it will be for a divorce. I don't really see the point in paying for a separation agreement, then paying a second time for a divorce.

I have met with a few attorneys. I don't have one on retainer yet, but I was sent the retainer agreement and a list of paperwork to prepare. So, I've been working on that for the past few months. My evidence is pretty organized now, and it should save me some money in lawyer fees by doing my own documentation.

Also, let me modify my question.  Are you and your daughter stable? 

I think we are. There is some tension and frustration, of course, but I'm comfortable with managing the home and parenting, and D10 seems mostly happy and is thriving in school.

1. Post about your separation/custody situation in detail on the legal board here. I'm not an expert, having only started working on a divorce I expect we will come to agreement before filing and perhaps not even need a lawyer. Nothing like what you could have ahead of you. The senior folks on that board have been through it all.

2. Talk to a lawyer ASAP. (You might ask about how to pick one on the legal board... .if this turns into a high-conflict divorce, you will need a special lawyer to handle it.

Agreed. I did post on the legal board a while back and got some good advice when it came to how to select an attorney. I actually have met with two and have picked one, but I haven't put him on retainer yet.