Therapy helped her BPD, but now I don't care?

[CCMidwest]

Hello all!

I'm male, early-thirties. Married 13 years. We have 2 young kids.

I'll be brief because honestly this is embarrassing and hard for me to write.

Looking back, there was warning signs about her BPD when we were dating, but I was far too infatuated to see them. (or rather, I saw them but chose to rationalize them away)

Her BPD became apparent, although I didn't know what BPD was then, during the second day of our honeymoon. It was all downhill from there. The first ten years or so was a living nightmare of passive aggressive anger, being ignored for weeks or months at a time, accusations of cheating, suicide threats, constant put-downs, manipulations, isolation from friends and family, passionate intimacy followed by disgust, playing favorites with the kids, and etc etc etc... .

She was diagnosed BPD about 7 years into the marriage by a psychologist (?) that she went to for childhood sexual abuse from her father. The psychologist realized she was BPD when my wife's sister confronted my wife over the sex abuse, saying that it never happened and that she was lying. My wife confessed that she was lying about the abuse, and admitted that she only made up the story so that she wouldn't have to have sex with me anymore.

My self-confidence has never recovered from that.

I separated from her on our 10th year, we lived apart for about a year total. Then we got back together.

She went to counseling again, and we had marriage counseling together. Over the last 2 years she has been much better. Over the last 6 months especially, we've really done well. If our marriage had been even close to what it is now this whole time, I would be very happy.

But as she has done better, I have done nothing but worse. I'm in therapy for self-esteem issues. I feel worthless, used, unattractive, depressed, and anxious.

My psychologist has diagnosed me with major depression and generalized anxiety, neither of which I ever had before. He says it is directly related to both my bad childhood and living with a BPD wife.

Now I feel like I used up everything I have to get this far, and now that I am here... .I'm spent. I feel like I live with an actor that will turn on me at any moment, or maybe already has and I am just unaware. But then things are going well?

Who's the crazy one here? 'cause it sure feels like me!

How does one deal with the confusion and put themselves back together at the same time?

Edit: corrected a mistake in the timeline

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[JennyMom]

Hi, new here myself. 40's Mom of four husband (and possibly oldest daughter) with BPD. Married 25 years.

So, I had to respond to what you wrote because your situation sounds similar to my own experience. I ignored the signs that were there before we married, like him threatening to call off the wedding over nothing or petty squabbles. I also found out in a HUGE way on day 1 of our honeymoon that something about him was just not right. He yelled at me in the airport when I didn't move my bags up fast enough in the baggage check in line. I took it as he had never travelled whereas I had and that he was nervous to board a plane so I let it go. That continued to day three of our honeymoon where I was called a ho,slut on and on, all because I fell asleep in the lounge chair while sunbathing, and my head was turned towards the pool where there was apparently some man wearing a speedo who I never even saw but was told that he made a big mistake in marrying me and called every name in the book. He then stormed out and I was left in tears wondering what happened. I was about four months pregnant at the time, a baby that he and I wanted very much. Two hours later he came back as if nothing had happened at all, told me he met some nice couple and that we were meeting them downstairs by the pool to hang out. No apologies, no nothing. I just pushed it under the rug because who wants to admit to themself on their honeymoon that they made a huge mistake, especially when they are pregnant. He was jealous of my stuffed animal, this dog I'd had since I was two. I found this out shortly after I made up the nursery. I was fairly far along in my pregnancy and suffering from toxemia so my blood pressure was already way up and eventually I was put on total bedrest... .but not before I came into the new nursery to find my stuffed dog who was name Little John, tied by a noose around his neck and hanging from the crib. Yeah... .his reason? "I figured your ex boyfriend whose name was John gave it to you." No, my mother had given it to me... .I felt traumatized, completely traumatized at the visual of that and I worried about him being a father.

It was decided that I would stay home with the kids so I quit college stupidly since I was in my third year. I can tell you that I decided to do this for many reason, daycare costs was one of them, but the other is something nobody would probably believe unless they also had a BPD spouse... .My husband was insanely jealous, still is, which is why I have no friends nor do I work. It's easier for him, less worry if I don't work. He was all for me staying home. I did end up doing daycare to make ends meet, but I never got that career I was working towards because I knew that I could not have career and marriage. When I tried to get jobs (I actually did get a good paying job with a Defense Contractor) he would tell me that, "I would find somebody else and leave him. I am a woman and all women will cheat." In the end it was just easier if I stayed at home. Each time I would talk of career, going back to school or getting a job he would get me pregnant again. I don't regret my children, but his insecurities are the reason that we have four.

My youngest is 10, my oldest 24... .My youngest calls his dad Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. My youngest asks him, ":)ad did you take your Happy pill because you aren't acting nice?" He is starting to challenge him and is very aware of the abuse he throws at me. Some days I am to blame for everything, and that is most days.

Example: Last weekend myself, my son and my husband were in the truck. I was talking at the time about whatever boring, mundane daily stuff like what we need from the grocery store. He hit a huge pothole and I banged my head on the ceiling (I'm tall)... .I said "ow" and then he said "It's your fault I hit that pothole, you were talking and it distracted me." I responded, smiling mind you, because I thought for sure he was joking with some playful ribbing like, "What a joke" to which he stopped the truck and ordered me to get out and walk home. It turned into a big fight where I was told "How dare you call me a joke! You're the blank blank blank." I was then asked for a divorce... .mind you he always tells me how worthless I am but when I finally had enough, a year ago and called him on his bluff to divorce and actually made plans to leave him he turned into mr. sweetness and changed his tune and we had the ONLY nice 2 months of our marriage. I actually had a caring and thoughtful guy and boy were my hopes lofty at that point and time only a year ago. But like always he reverted right back to the name calling and yelling, temper tantrums and backstabbing. My story is too long to post here in one blurb. I'm miserable though, so I totally get your post. Some might think what you said is cold but it's not. I GET IT. The personal costs of staying with someone with BPD is astronomical.

The relationships with your kids,family,friends are all THREATS to the BPD spouse so... .watch out... .because that ugly insecurity, propensity for lying, twisting the truth, feelings=facts... .If you don't fight back, which I normally don't, in the end it will destroy relationships... My husband loves to play the victim but he is nothing but a big bully. I am embarrassed to ever tell my parents how truly horrible this man is to me, and yes he has gotten physical with me before though mostly it is biting cutdowns, criticisms that are evil in nature if you ask me and totally unfair yet he can't take it. He can dish it out in heaps but can't take any and I do mean any criticism. My whole life is walking on eggshells... .and your kids won't respect you for it in the end. Maybe they will if you're a guy, but if you're a woman and you take abuse because you know that your husband was molested as a boy and that it isn't his fault he has BPD (he IS responsible for his crappy behavior though) and you take it and take it and your kids end up living in a household where it's normal to hear Daddy yell at Mommy then Mommy appears weak and they will resent you for it later.

My oldest is a feminist now with a Masters degree in Biology, and I don't think she finds much to adore about a woman who quit college, stayed at home and raised four kids almost single-handedly because he worked a lot to avoid parenting (which he was lousy at when they were kids) and who took crap off a crazy man. It's heartbreaking too because she and I were so close... .I honestly think she may have BPD too because nothing happened between us but now she is black splitting me for no apparrent reason. It's only recently that she started talking to me again, and like him, no apologies and no even acknowledging the crap that she pulled over the last year like uninviting me at the last second to her graduation for no reason. Nothing happened. I'm a cool Mom, who was always there to help my kids. I am patient and understanding and I've always championed her hard work and effort. It killed me when she uninvited me to her graduation and I suspect my husband had something to do with it. He was always threatened by how close we were. Nobody is allowed to be close to me. He likes it that way. I overread a text of him portraying himself as a saint, bringing her into some twisted argument we had months ago and him throwing me under the bus. I then read where she said that he could come to her graduation but to leave the old lady at home and the oh so sorry bullcrap to him. It was all LIES! I mean blatant lies and I won't defend myself because I am totally against using kids as pawns. It's not their worry to know or be expected to do anything about our immature marriage. I can't stand that he would bring her into it for the only means of trying to ruin my relationship with her and it worked and it was all based on lies. If I am talking on the phone to my sister in his mind it's a threat and he will spend the next two weeks ripping her apart and cutting her down, but if I don't tell him who I am talking to on the phone then it must be a guy... .and I am a cheater. Am I supposed to run to my kids and tell them Daddy is crazy I was on the phone with my sister talking about our father's failing health? Should i tell them all the horrible things he's done to me that they don't know about which will only dredge up the crap they do know about and won't respect me for taking anyways? No... .So I take it and just hope that my kids know better than to believe him. They know he lies... .At what point do you fight fire with fire? At what point do you run out of patience and stop caring? How do you even fight fire with fire when the low down dirty tactics from the BPD person knows no depths and just about the time you've seen it all they do something that is so below the belt you can't believe that you even live in a world where a person is capable of so much hate and malice.

I am now somebody who avoids conflict at all costs because nothing comes off fighting back... .BPD's make no progress that I can see. I actually hate when my husband goes to therapy, because he rarely tells me at all. I have to hear it in passing when he has been attacking me verbally for a solid two hours and then suddenly he will tell me that his therapist says... .And you just know that his therapist did NOt say that You know he is twisting her words anyways and then ya start really wanting to give that therapist a piece of your mind if they did say that. I know better though, I know he's lying.

I thank God for my kids each and every day, because it's about the only good thing to come out of the last twenty-five years.

Oh and sorry for the rant... .You came here looking for some answers and help of your own and I just posted this long rant. I'm really sorry and I can relate. I guess that's all I can really add as I am living in my own hell. It helps me to read these boards though and to know that I am not alone. That's something in itself, isn't it? take care and God bless. Whatever you do just know that you have the right to walk away. Don't stay and be miserable. It doesn't get better, at least not for long. It actually gets worse, in my opinion. Eventually your kids move out and you are left with a spouse who you realize doesn't know you, never knew you, never cared to know you. You're just this pet frog that they love so much that they put it in a suffocating box and don't realize that they are squeezing you way too tight and that it hurts a lot.

[C.Stein]

Welcome  ,

I applaud your courage to open up and share your experience with us.  You can feel safe here, we are here to listen and support you, to help you find some answers to questions you undoubtedly have.

Now I feel like I used up everything I have to get this far, and now that I am here... .I'm spent. I feel like I live with an actor that will turn on me at any moment, or maybe already has and I am just unaware. But then things are going well?

I completely understand this.  The depression and anxiety ... .the fear of wondering when a threat will finally be followed through on, or when the other shoe will finally drop.  It left me feeling emotionally numb and physically exhausted ... .or like you said ... .spent.  It then started to impact in other physical ways ... .including chest pains and stroke symtoms.

Who's the crazy one here? 'cause it sure feels like me!

You are not crazy.  Have you heard of a trauma bond?  You might want to look up information on that to see if it applies.  I think you will find it does and it might help you understand why you feel the way you do.

How does one deal with the confusion and put themselves back together at the same time?

I think you may have lost some or all of your belief in your wife.  Now that things appear to be going better you feel confused, not knowing if you can risk believing in her once again.  I understand how difficult it is to hold onto the belief under the circumstances you have faced throughout your marriage.

How do you think you can start believing in her again and rebuild your faith and confidence in her?

[CCMidwest]

Hi jennymom,

No worries on the long post, I read every word.

It sounds like you have been through a lot, I can respect that, and can certainly relate!

[CCMidwest]

Hi C. Stein,

Thanks for the welcome, nice to know I am not alone.

I completely understand this.  The depression and anxiety ... .the fear of wondering when a threat will finally be followed through on, or when the other shoe will finally drop.  It left me feeling emotionally numb and physically exhausted ... .or like you said ... .spent.  It then started to impact in other physical ways ... .including chest pains and stroke symtoms.

Yeah, I had chest pains too. Even had panic attack type symptoms for some time last year. Not like me at all.

You are not crazy.  Have you heard of a trauma bond?  You might want to look up information on that to see if it applies.  I think you will find it does and it might help you understand why you feel the way you do.

Thanks. I will look up trauma bonds. I realize that yes she is BPD, but I still put up with it... .ya know? I want to know why I did that, so I can fix whatever it is in me that allowed it to happen. I probably blame myself for far too much of it, but I was a volunteer for all of this too... .

I think you may have lost some or all of your belief in your wife.  Now that things appear to be going better you feel confused, not knowing if you can risk believing in her once again.  I understand how difficult it is to hold onto the belief under the circumstances you have faced throughout your marriage.

How do you think you can start believing in her again and rebuild your faith and confidence in her?

I don't trust her at all, with anything. No doubt in my mind that all faith in her is lost. I look at everything she does as suspicious and with an ulterior motive.

Can I ever regain that? I don't know. Do I even want to regain that? Again, I just don't know.

I don't trust myself either. I don't trust that I am not letting her/it/us slide back into the same patterns.

[CCMidwest]

... .I was then asked for a divorce... .mind you he always tells me how worthless I am but when I finally had enough, a year ago and called him on his bluff to divorce and actually made plans to leave him he turned into mr. sweetness and changed his tune and we had the ONLY nice 2 months of our marriage. I actually had a caring and thoughtful guy and boy were my hopes lofty at that point and time only a year ago. But like always he reverted right back to the name calling and yelling, temper tantrums and backstabbing... .

The best time in my marriage was the 6-8 months after we got back together following our separation. It was right back to the old patterns after that. That is when she started therapy again.

Still, we had problem after problem which culminated in my serving her with divorce papers this last October.

She's been amazing since that time.

Only treats me well when the fear of abandonment turns into reality.

[CCMidwest]

... .I also found out in a HUGE way on day 1 of our honeymoon that something about him was just not right. He yelled at me in the airport when I didn't move my bags up fast enough in the baggage check in line. I took it as he had never travelled whereas I had and that he was nervous to board a plane so I let it go. That continued to day three of our honeymoon where I was called a ho,slut on and on,... .

I relate to so much of what you wrote!

I got told on honeymoon day #2 that I was a "pervert" and "sexually abnormal" for wanting to have sex with my new young bride. On day #3 I was just ignored.

By the end of the first month she was either initiating sex and then stopping it in the middle saying she, "changed her mind," or would have sex and then tell me later that she only did it to keep me happy and that she could, "live the rest of my life without sex," and, "hope you're happy I went through that for you"

Gah! It sucks.

[JennyMom]

I can relate to the anxiety and depression as well. Hubby likes to start fights in the car, especially on long trips to visit relatives. To get the desired attention that he craves he will swerve,speed, road rage at others drivers, threaten to kick me out of the car etc... .After years and years of this I now have panic attacks on highways so I don't drive on highways anymore, which is not good. I know it stems from his antics. I read somewhere that reckless driving is one way that BPD is manifested in men and in his case it's dead on accurate. I know why I have the panic attacks, I know how it got there but I am still working on overcoming it. Holidays are always grounds for a good ole BPD rage. Vacations too. It wouldn't be Christmas without him threatening to cancel Christmas at least a handful of times.

Hang in there, my thoughts are with you. I know how you feel, and at least for me it was scary to give my marriage another try because I had a feeling that he would go right back to the jerk he is. I wanted to be wrong, more than anything. I feel robbed now if I'm being honest. I had the type of marriage I always wanted--a normal one. Trouble is it only lasted two months and in some ways that's even more painful because now I know what a good marriage feels like and it was awesome. Trauma bonding probably applies to me as well LOL

[Turkish]

Hello JennyMom,

Would you care to start your own thread to explore what's going to discuss what worked, what didn't, and what's happening?

Turkish

[waverider]

Most of us come here completely overwhelmed with the complexities of everything that has happened. Its like a bit tangled ball of string... where to start.

Best approach is to step back and identify what hurts us and undermines us the most. This is typically our lack of ability to say no or stop, due to fear of consequences.

Can you identify this aspect and possibly focus on that so we can make a start somewhere and see how best we can help. Individual topics about specific issues often helps separate the confusion

Its a hard road, but you are not alone, either of you.

Waverider

[Herodias]

Jennymom, thank you for posting some of your story... I can totally relate! The driving parts especially. Sorry you have been abused like that. I've gone through it too- trama bonding for sure. We need to stick together because no one else would understand. Therapists just say, " why are you still in this marriage?" It's very difficult to move away from these people. I'm out and working on starting a new life. Scared of people, so glad to be alone and have the people on this board to relate to. My divorce now has a date- June 17- now he's not responding to the lawyers after he was in such a hurry. It's almost over for me and I feel ready. The part I can't let go of is the abuse and trama I went through. I'm shocked and ashamed. Yet I know I'm a good person and did all I could to help him and save our marriage- I wasn't meant to be used like that and I know it now. I hope we can all get to a better place and have a happier future eventually...

[CCMidwest]

Most of us come here completely overwhelmed with the complexities of everything that has happened. Its like a bit tangled ball of string... where to start.

Best approach is to step back and identify what hurts us and undermines us the most. This is typically our lack of ability to say no or stop, due to fear of consequences.

Can you identify this aspect and possibly focus on that so we can make a start somewhere and see how best we can help. Individual topics about specific issues often helps separate the confusion

Its a hard road, but you are not alone, either of you.

Waverider

Hi waverider, thanks for the response.

The biggest issue? I'm not sure. My own need for validation at this point I think. I feel like a man stuck in the desert with no water, and she offers a sip of water that never comes.

I've spent the last few years setting some pretty hard boundaries with her, and although she railed against them, overall they have gone well. I can say no to her without an issue, in fact she seems to do better when I do set that boundary.

One specific issue that comes up often is her interpreting my moods as something bigger than they are. There are plenty of times where a simple facial expression on my part (that I didn't even realize I was having) will lead to her asking, "Are you ok?" which is followed very quickly by, "Are WE ok?"

So she thinks my bad mood or whatever is a threat to her. I can't blame her though, I did threaten divorce just 6 months ago, anyone would be insecure.

By far though, the biggest issue I have is my need for validation. I've had some major events in my life lately (death of 3 close family members plus we have a very sick child) and her complete lack of empathy or ability to validate my feelings has lead to a lot of feelings on my part, none of which are positive towards her, myself, or the relationship.

Other than modeling it myself (which I do), how would I get her to validate my feelings? Is that even possible?

There have been times where I think she has tried to validate me, but it comes off so awkwardly that I am not really sure if that is what she is trying, but I think it is. Is maybe an adjustment of my perception in order?

My apologies if this comes out jumbled!

[tryingtohelp]

Hello CCMidwest

I have just read your very well written article and can totally understand what you have been put through.  I am sorry to hear these experiences have caused you some damage, you are certainly not the crazy one, and anyone would be struggling after what this woman has put you through.  Absolutely take care of yourself,  you can't help her, she is the damaged one ,  you have given it your best for years, maybe it is time to let her go , repair yourself and move on to someone better and start living again.

   Good Luck 

[waverider]

By far though, the biggest issue I have is my need for validation. I've had some major events in my life lately (death of 3 close family members plus we have a very sick child) and her complete lack of empathy or ability to validate my feelings has lead to a lot of feelings on my part, none of which are positive towards her, myself, or the relationship.

Other than modeling it myself (which I do), how would I get her to validate my feelings? Is that even possible?

There have been times where I think she has tried to validate me, but it comes off so awkwardly that I am not really sure if that is what she is trying, but I think it is. Is maybe an adjustment of my perception in order?

This is a very common issue, it does get us stuck in a cycle of resentment which we project back onto them, creating that feeling of 'somethings wrong'.

Here is a recent discusion on this topic we recently had on the improving board

Is it possible for a BPD person to validate a Non?

Generally it is not good to rely on your pwBPD for validation, even if given the value of it can be questionable. Do you really want the "validation" you got when you first met, that now rings hollow?

We do need to be independent and self sufficient, even within a realtionship. Being grafted onto, or rely on, your partner to supply basic needs leaves you vulnerable to the transfer of unstable emotions and behaviors

I've spent the last few years setting some pretty hard boundaries with her, and although she railed against them, overall they have gone well. I can say no to her without an issue, in fact she seems to do better when I do set that boundary.

pwBPd struggle with personal boundaries and rely on others to supply them, if they test them and they prove weak then they do indeed lose respect. pwBPD will never respect a doormat. They understand the black and white response that boundary enforcement presents, even if they do kick up a fuss in response.

One specific issue that comes up often is her interpreting my moods as something bigger than they are. There are plenty of times where a simple facial expression on my part (that I didn't even realize I was having) will lead to her asking, "Are you ok?" which is followed very quickly by, "Are WE ok?"

So she thinks my bad mood or whatever is a threat to her. I can't blame her though, I did threaten divorce just 6 months ago, anyone would be insecure.

Insecurity always leads to them looking for the bogey man in the shadows. Selfcenteredness means that if there is a problem then they must be central to it. You cant just be having down mood without it being about her, and dont believe you if you say its not. Constantly looking for something to defend against. The important thing is not to react out of frustration to this, as it is your reaction that starts the chain of conflict. The blame then being shifted to you.

[waverider]

Hello CCMidwest

I have just read your very well written article and can totally understand what you have been put through.  I am sorry to hear these experiences have caused you some damage, you are certainly not the crazy one, and anyone would be struggling after what this woman has put you through.  Absolutely take care of yourself,  you can't help her, she is the damaged one ,  you have given it your best for years, maybe it is time to let her go , repair yourself and move on to someone better and start living again.

   Good Luck 

A decision to leave sits better after you have reached a position of clarity about the whole dynamics and how best to handle them. This substantially reduces the "what if" that drags us back into the toxic recycle. We first need to rid ourselves of previous ineffective coping mechanisms. Leave no stone unturned if you like, before making that call

[CCMidwest]

Hello CCMidwest

I have just read your very well written article and can totally understand what you have been put through.  I am sorry to hear these experiences have caused you some damage, you are certainly not the crazy one, and anyone would be struggling after what this woman has put you through.  Absolutely take care of yourself,  you can't help her, she is the damaged one ,  you have given it your best for years, maybe it is time to let her go , repair yourself and move on to someone better and start living again.

   Good Luck 

Hi tryingtohelp,

I'm not ready to leave her. I'm just not. Its too much. I just lost my grandfather, my grandmother, and my uncle (who was like a father to me) in the span of about 10 months. My oldest daughter is very ill and has had several surgical procedures with more scheduled in the coming weeks.

I'm keeping myself together for my daughter. I can't add to that right now. Her health problems AND mom and dad split? No. Just no.

My heart hurts for her and my other little one.

With that said, I'm not here to help my wife. I'm here to help me understand her and myself better. To help myself come to terms with the past and hopefully find a way forward (of course I will find a way!)

That way forward may or may not include staying married to her. I personally am ok with either, terrified but ok, however I prefer to stay married.

If my future includes divorce though, it will be on my terms, when the time is "best" for me and my kids. (as best as I can control it anyway)

[CCMidwest]

Waverider,

Thanks. I'll think about everything you said, but know that your rational response is much appreciated.

I realize I have a problem with validation seeking. In the start of the relationship I was validation seeking to the point of being needy.

I almost had an affair not long ago. The thing that kept me from doing it was the realization that I was more into her validating me than I was actually wanting her physically or emotionally.

It was a big eye opener for me, that I am not just passive in all of this.

[waverider]

The trap is reaction>counter reaction>counter reaction to the counter reaction etc, until we loose sight of our own part in the dynamic. It all just adds smoke to the fire, and confuses everything

It is good that you have identified that it is your part in this that needs to be clarified to yourself so that you can at least stop making it worse as a first step. That is the part you can control. Then see what can be achieved from there.

One step at a time, there is no quick fix.

[C.Stein]

Yeah, I had chest pains too. Even had panic attack type symptoms for some time last year. Not like me at all.

Same here.  Never had this type of physical response to emotions.  I also had what I presume was an anxiety attack, also a first.  Completely sent me for a loop, didn't know what the heck was going on.  Had that about a week or two before stroke symptoms sent me to the ER.  I speculate now it was due to repressed emotions.

Thanks. I will look up trauma bonds. I realize that yes she is BPD, but I still put up with it... .ya know? I want to know why I did that, so I can fix whatever it is in me that allowed it to happen. I probably blame myself for far too much of it, but I was a volunteer for all of this too... .

In my case I wasn't aware of BPD, I wish I had been.  I was able to tolerate a lot of the behavior as she is not the raging type, or at least she wasn't typically around me.  She would get frustrated at the most inane things but I can understand that to some extent.  For me I tolerated it because much of the behavior wasn't really too damaging even if it was dysfunctional ... .and well because I loved her.  We all have to accept the faults in our partners as well as ourselves ... .this is what love is.  

I'm not one to accept blame for things I did not do, but now I realize she made me feel guilty a lot for enforcing boundaries and for expressing my emotions.  As that continued I expressed my emotions less and less ... .I had become conditioned by her to repress my emotions.  

This also resulted in letting her cross soft boundaries which should have been hard boundaries and it did a lot of damage to me emotionally, which made me repress my emotions even more.   As all this emotional repression went on I also see I distanced myself from her physically and emotionally.   I think this is when I started manifesting the physical symptoms of emotional distress.   I didn't realize what I was doing at the time but I now see I also stopped making an effort.  I didn't realize I was dealing with a disordered person or how to handle her or myself.  I stumbled along, managing to do some things right and a lot of things wrong with respect to managing a relationship with a borderline.

I don't trust her at all, with anything. No doubt in my mind that all faith in her is lost. I look at everything she does as suspicious and with an ulterior motive.

Can I ever regain that? I don't know. Do I even want to regain that? Again, I just don't know.

I don't trust myself either. I don't trust that I am not letting her/it/us slide back into the same patterns.

This is tough man, trust is the one of, if not the most critical components in a relationship.  I also got to that point, where I certainly didn't trust her emotionally and then later her actions and words.  She slowly eroded my emotional trust in her with her emotional blackmail/manipulation.  Losing trust in the actions and words, trust in someones ability to make the right decisions in compromising circumstances, this is when I think you start to lose faith and belief in that person.  

So with that in mind, how can you both be more open with each other so you can avoid that feeling like everything she says or does needs to be analyzed for the true content/intent?

[CCMidwest]

In my case I wasn't aware of BPD, I wish I had been.  I was able to tolerate a lot of the behavior as she is not the raging type, or at least she wasn't typically around me.  She would get frustrated at the most inane things but I can understand that to some extent.  For me I tolerated it because much of the behavior wasn't really too damaging even if it was dysfunctional ... .and well because I loved her.  We all have to accept the faults in our partners as well as ourselves ... .this is what love is.ade me feel guilty a lot for enforcing boundaries and for expressing my emotions.  As that continued I expressed my emotions less and less ... .I had become conditioned by her to repress my emotions.  

My wife is not the raging type either. I sort of wish she was, because I think that would be easier to identify than the constant degrading comments, blame shifting, and contradictory statements. She likes to ignore me too. I think her record is just short of 6 months straight. I usually had no idea why she was ignoring either. I figure she has ignored me, all added up together, for close to 3 years of our relationship.

"I'm sad, make me feel better before I kill myself" - heard variations of that over 50 times. Actual suicide threats about 10-15 times.

I didn't think any of this was very damaging to me while I was in it. I accepted who she was. Until one day I woke up and realized just how damaged I had become.

This is tough man, trust is the one of, if not the most critical components in a relationship.  I also got to that point, where I certainly didn't trust her emotionally and then later her actions and words.  She slowly eroded my emotional trust in her with her emotional blackmail/manipulation.  Losing trust in the actions and words, trust in someones ability to make the right decisions in compromising circumstances, this is when I think you start to lose faith and belief in that person. 

So with that in mind, how can you both be more open with each other so you can avoid that feeling like everything she says or does needs to be analyzed for the true content/intent?

With my wife I am just in "routine mode" right now. We generally have OK days. Almost everyday is the same. A "holding pattern" I guess you could say, while I sort myself out. She knows of course that I am in therapy but I absolutely refuse to talk to her about it. This leads to her making comments like "Your therapist is just going to convince you to leave me," or "If you fix yourself you'll figure out that you should leave me," or "I'm sorry for what I did all those years, I hope none of your problems are my fault... .please tell me they aren't because of me,"

I try to validate her (using SET) as best I can with those comments, but it is hard. There seems to be very little concern for *me* and only concern for her not being left alone or having any guilt.

My relationship with my sister was very damaged with all of this too, because my wife and mother convinced her to disown me for quite some time. Before that, she was probably my closest relationship.

I've spent the last few months rebuilding that relationship with my sister, and she is very responsive. She has validated my feelings about being disowned, and has made a sincere apology. I then told her that I forgive her, thanked her for the apology, and we never discussed the past again. She comes to me for advice on money and such (I'm self-made), and I come to her for advice on the kids. It's really nice having someone sane in my life. Even with our past troubles, we dealt with it and moved on. It hurts to know she threw me away so easily, but I understand how it happened and she has regained my trust. I wish my wife could be that way.

The problems with my sister just seem, well... .normal?

[C.Stein]

My wife is not the raging type either. I sort of wish she was, because I think that would be easier to identify than the constant degrading comments, blame shifting, and contradictory statements. She likes to ignore me too. I think her record is just short of 6 months straight. I usually had no idea why she was ignoring either. I figure she has ignored me, all added up together, for close to 3 years of our relationship.

"I'm sad, make me feel better before I kill myself" - heard variations of that over 50 times. Actual suicide threats about 10-15 times.

I didn't think any of this was very damaging to me while I was in it. I accepted who she was. Until one day I woke up and realized just how damaged I had become.

I didn't get a lot of the degrading comments, at least not overt ones.  The blame shifting, contradictory statements, revision of history, misinterpretation of things I said, putting words in my mouth and mind, twisting things I said, etc ... .all things that impacted me, but at the time I mostly just blew it off, but not always.

She also did the suicide ideation and threats.  Much like you I didn't realize just how damaging this all was until months after she threw me away.  It is good your eyes are open now and you have a real chance here to maybe salvage your marriage.

With my wife I am just in "routine mode" right now. We generally have OK days. Almost everyday is the same. A "holding pattern" I guess you could say, while I sort myself out. She knows of course that I am in therapy but I absolutely refuse to talk to her about it. This leads to her making comments like "Your therapist is just going to convince you to leave me," or "If you fix yourself you'll figure out that you should leave me," or "I'm sorry for what I did all those years, I hope none of your problems are my fault... .please tell me they aren't because of me,"

I try to validate her (using SET) as best I can with those comments, but it is hard.  There seems to be very little concern for *me* and only concern for her not being left alone or having any guilt.

I know this and understand how incredibly difficult it is to hold yourself up when you really need your partner to "step up" and take responsibility for the damage they have done.  Mine simply couldn't see beyond her own needs and could not find a way to take my hand ( emotionally speaking) when she really needed to.

My relationship with my sister was very damaged with all of this too, because my wife and mother convinced her to disown me for quite some time. Before that, she was probably my closest relationship.

I've spent the last few months rebuilding that relationship with my sister, and she is very responsive. She has validated my feelings about being disowned, and has made a sincere apology. I then told her that I forgive her, thanked her for the apology, and we never discussed the past again. She comes to me for advice on money and such (I'm self-made), and I come to her for advice on the kids. It's really nice having someone sane in my life. Even with our past troubles, we dealt with it and moved on. It hurts to know she threw me away so easily, but I understand how it happened and she has regained my trust. I wish my wife could be that way.

The problems with my sister just seem, well... .normal?

I am happy to hear you mended fences with your sister.   The FOO (family of origin) dynamic can be difficult at times, especially as we grow apart with age.  Given your success with your sister do you think you might be able to apply the same tactics with your wife?  Of course it requires your wife to meet you half way, but there may be things you can do to lead her to that point?

[CCMidwest]

The trap is reaction>counter reaction>counter reaction to the counter reaction etc, until we loose sight of our own part in the dynamic. It all just adds smoke to the fire, and confuses everything

It is good that you have identified that it is your part in this that needs to be clarified to yourself so that you can at least stop making it worse as a first step. That is the part you can control. Then see what can be achieved from there.

One step at a time, there is no quick fix.

So I read about trauma bonding. It fits me like a glove.

My shrink says that I was seduced by her giving me so much validation early on in the relationship as many BPD's do. Apparently after being raised by a man-hating mother that despised the fact the I was not born a girl, when I ran into a woman that treated me like a king... .that was that.

Previous girlfriends had treated me well, but didn't have that seductiveness that comes from the idealization phase. Once we got married, the idealization phase was over very quickly.

I also read the thread about whether or not a BPD can validate a non BPD. I still don't know if a BPD is capable of that, or specifically whether or not my wife is capable of validating me or whether I am capable of accepting that validation from her anymore anyway.

It did reiterate the point in my mind though that I am far too needy when it comes to validation, and that I need to focus myself internally for the time being.

One thing that my shrink said that helped validate me, and get me to validate myself was this: We spent an entire session just letting me talk about all the things that my wife has done over the years. He just listened.

After I was done he said, "You've been through a lot,"

Me, "Yeah, I suppose," and I shrugged my shoulders.

Him, "No. You really have been through a lot, and you need to understand that. You need to give yourself some self-compassion and stop being so hard on yourself. You try so hard to not get stuck in a victim mentality that you don't even stop to acknowledge the fact that what has been done to you is wrong. You have every right to feel how you do"

Then we had a long discussion on how "validation" works and on how you can and should validate yourself too. It's not easy!

[CCMidwest]

I am happy to hear you mended fences with your sister.   The FOO (family of origin) dynamic can be difficult at times, especially as we grow apart with age.  Given your success with your sister do you think you might be able to apply the same tactics with your wife?  Of course it requires your wife to meet you half way, but there may be things you can do to lead her to that point?

When I approached my sister to mend things I basically said, "Hey, you know you hurt me a lot when you disowned me for a year. What's up with that?"

She cried and said that she realized she was wrong. She took a long time to explain herself and her thoughts at the time. She said she was sorry and told me she wished to be close like we were before. I thanked her, hugged her, and told her it was ok and that I understood the dynamic that was at play at the time. I told her that I would like to be close again as we were as kids and younger adults. Then I took her out for coffee.

She didn't get defensive or angry. She acknowledged the situation, her part in it, and then did her best to remedy it. I feel like I did the same.

My wife just gets defensive. She gets withdrawn, she gets quiet. She changes the story line, "That's not what I said," or "That's not what I meant," or "I didn't mean it that way, do you really think so poorly of me?" or "I didn't mean it that way, why do you always assume bad intentions?"

Instead of any ownership or responsibility, I get over-generalizations, blame shifting, guilt avoidance, polarized thinking, and so on.

On the rare occasion I do get acknowledgment of doing wrong, she just wants the guilt to go away.

Then I feel like all I am doing is chasing her and trying to pin guilt on her... .when all I really want is to resolve the issue and move on.

I think the only way to fix this with her is for me to realize that setting a boundary and preventing the same problem in the future is all I can hope for, instead of trying to get my feelings validated like I did with my sister's apology.