Some urgent help with validation~

[mitti]

Hi everybody,

I am going through difficult times with my uBPDxbf. We met for the first time in 2 months because some other things that concern us both and is both quite important and serious but too private to mention here. Two months ago, he, yet again, told me he will never want to speak to me again. So he has done that on a number of occasions for the 7 years I have known him. Then he very often gets angry that I don't contact him anyway. The more he has smeared me and the longer we have known each other and the more tangled up mess around us, the harder it feels navigating through his minefield of triggers. I have also developed some pretty acute triggers to shame as shaming is his preferred method of defence and attack.

Anyway, when we met he seemed really glad to see me but a lot less interested in the issue at hand. He said to call him if I needed any help but if we meet socially (our circles of friends overlap) to not greet each other. And I get his reasons for saying this, he has badmouthed so much and feels he can't very well take back that I am not this psycho-b___ ex-girlfriend.

Anyway, a week passed and I wrote him a brief email if he would think it was a good idea to meet again to talk about what we had met for. Because we had never come to decision on how to deal with that matter. So he responded like this... .



"No no no, I don't want to talk to you. Nor see you. I have nothing to talk to you about. You are not important to me and I feel nothing but indifference. Good luck to you and your life."

So I am guessing that he is somehow getting back at me, he may feel rejected. Because our meeting was not about the two of us, which he is implying here but a very serious matter. I don't want another argument with him but if he refuses to talk to me about this, then I have to contact one or two friends of his about the matter and then it will look really bad for him as it will be obvious that he has lied and is refusing to deal with an urgent and serious matter in his life.

So I need to write a response to him tomorrow and before I tell him that I have no other option but to contact his friend I want to at least try and see what I can do with validating what seems to be the problem in his message to me today. Anything stands out to anybody?

I will have think and come back with an idea, but any ideas are helpful.

[livednlearned]

How about something like, "You are angry at me, and I accept that. You don't want to see me and I accept that too. We do have this one issue to resolve. Do you have a suggestion for how I can resolve this without involving you?"

Keep in mind that validation mitigates things -- it is possible he is still dysregulated and will come back with something hurtful. It can take time to return to baseline.

What you have control over are your reactions. Often, the insults/abuse are triggered by pile upon pile upon pile of traumatic retriggering that pre-dates you. He likely has not resolved these grievances, so they gain momentum. If he is on tilt, he may not respond well no matter how well you phrase things.

That also doesn't mean your validation is without some effect.

[Grey Kitty]

I like LnL's suggestion a lot. It brings up the issue without explicitly backing him into a corner (stating that you will deal with this issue involving other people in a way that will expose bad behavior on his part)

I also am wondering about the whole idea of talking to him about things.

Do you need to deal with him in person about any of these matters? It might be less triggering for both of you to do this by email.

[mitti]

How about something like, "You are angry at me, and I accept that. You don't want to see me and I accept that too. We do have this one issue to resolve. Do you have a suggestion for how I can resolve this without involving you?"

Keep in mind that validation mitigates things -- it is possible he is still dysregulated and will come back with something hurtful. It can take time to return to baseline.

What you have control over are your reactions. Often, the insults/abuse are triggered by pile upon pile upon pile of traumatic retriggering that pre-dates you. He likely has not resolved these grievances, so they gain momentum. If he is on tilt, he may not respond well no matter how well you phrase things.

That also doesn't mean your validation is without some effect.

Hi livednlearned and thanks for your help,

I sat until I feel asleep yesterday without coming up with anything, so many thanks

I really like the beginning validating his anger. The one problem is that I cannot resolve this without his help and when we met a few days ago he said he would help. I have written about it here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291320.0 and it has got to a point that if he is not willing to do anything about this situation I am going to have to turn to friends of his.

His reason for refusing to deal with this is partly that he has smeared me so much that he has no idea how to get past that without coming off badly. That will get even worse if I have to resort to talking directly to a trusted friend of his. But when he won't even hear me I can't tell him that.

But I could just write him something brief today and validate the anger and then see if that calms him down sufficiently to continue.

Thanks again

[mitti]

I like LnL's suggestion a lot. It brings up the issue without explicitly backing him into a corner (stating that you will deal with this issue involving other people in a way that will expose bad behavior on his part)

I also am wondering about the whole idea of talking to him about things.

Do you need to deal with him in person about any of these matters? It might be less triggering for both of you to do this by email.

Hi Grey Kitty and thanks for responding. Yes, so do I. The reason I don't want to do this by email is that he is so easily triggered, not only by me, but also by whatever is happening around him. So I don't know what state he is in when I send an email to him, like yesterday. If we meet he is not exposed to any other triggers but me at that time.

Emails and texts are so easily misunderstood. He is especially sensitive to words and sentence construction but cannot digest too many words at one time and so trying to work within this becomes draining for me write, avoiding possible triggers, and for him to read. When in this minefield just the length of an email and the number of words can be triggering for him.

And also I am not sure other people do not have access to his email account.

[mitti]

I think I might try with something like this... .

"I hear that you are angry at me and of course I accept how you are feeling. But could you explain to me why because this is not what I understood from what you said to talk about X?"

and then I wonder if I could suggest to him something along the lines of... .



"did I contact you at a bad time yesterday?"

... .to give him a way passed whatever shame, if any, I might trigger. Not sure about the last one. He may feel angry I am suggesting reasons for his anger.

[Grey Kitty]

I wish you luck, but am not very hopeful that you can navigate between the minefield of his triggers and get what you want.

From what you say here (and in the other thread), what you want and what your ex want are pretty much incompatible, and lack much common ground.

You want to resolve this other issue, and want his assistance, and don't want to jump back into the messy relationship you had with him quickly, if ever.

He wants/needs a messy romantic involvement, and appears to be afraid/unwilling to help you/in denial about the other issue.

[Grey Kitty]

I think I might try with something like this... .

"I hear that you are angry at me and of course I accept how you are feeling. But could you explain to me why because this is not what I understood from what you said to talk about X?"

and then I wonder if I could suggest to him something along the lines of... .



"did I contact you at a bad time yesterday?"

"Why" questions are pretty much accusations packaged up with an invitation for him to JADE back at you, and pointing out that he is contradicting what he said previously isn't going to make him feel anything but shame. No, I wouldn't send him any of the stuff in bold.

Your second statement is kinda offering him an excuse for bad behavior... .which has an implication that yesterday what he did was bad behavior, again... .something to trigger his shame. I don't see much good coming from that either.

It kinda depends on how hypersensitive he is, looking for any hint of criticism or invalidation to pounce upon and spool up over... .but from what you say, that is exactly where he is with you right now.

[mitti]

I think I might try with something like this... .

"I hear that you are angry at me and of course I accept how you are feeling. But could you explain to me why because this is not what I understood from what you said to talk about X?"

and then I wonder if I could suggest to him something along the lines of... .



"did I contact you at a bad time yesterday?"

"Why" questions are pretty much accusations packaged up with an invitation for him to JADE back at you, and pointing out that he is contradicting what he said previously isn't going to make him feel anything but shame. No, I wouldn't send him any of the stuff in bold.

Your second statement is kinda offering him an excuse for bad behavior... .which has an implication that yesterday what he did was bad behavior, again... .something to trigger his shame. I don't see much good coming from that either.

It kinda depends on how hypersensitive he is, looking for any hint of criticism or invalidation to pounce upon and spool up over... .but from what you say, that is exactly where he is with you right now.

OK right yes I see this. Damn, I thought this would provide a safer place for him. I know in the past when we were in r/s that to ask him to explain his feelings helped and would go from shame and anger to curiosity exploring his own feelings.

I had been seriously unvalidating trying to manage my own shame constantly triggered by insecurity that was in its turn triggered by his BPD issues. But when I learnt how to validate him it was like a miracle how quickly things would turn from destructive to constructive. Right now I think he may feel the safest place is NC but at the same time I know he expects me to, and at some point in time, tomorrow or in 3 weeks or this summer, will want me to contact him. So I don't have that time to give him and plus it is impossible for me to guess his time frame.

So if I ask for him "to help me understand why he is angry" but I have a feeling that might feel like a demand to him... .hm. Or I could just say that "I am wondering why he is angry since it was not what I perceived when we met" and not make it into a question as such. Since the possibilities are looking so grim I might as well give it my best shot and come what may. When I turn to a friend of his he will fly off the handle anyway.

[Grey Kitty]

The validating aspects are noticing he is angry, caring that he is angry, and accepting that he is angry.

Probing into why he is angry isn't comfortable or validating. Don't do that. Don't ask why.

You may find that he will share more about why in response to your validation. You can validate that too, and good things may continue... .but the key is that you are open to listening to what he wants to share, instead of probing for or demanding it from him.

Does that make sense?

So... .how long are you willing to give him to help you before you turn to his friend? You might want to consider telling your ex before you do this in the least triggering way possible, giving him one last chance or notification first... .This communication won't be validating, and your ex won't like it... .but we can still help you word it for the best possible result, aka the least destructive result.

[mitti]

The validating aspects are noticing he is angry, caring that he is angry, and accepting that he is angry.

Probing into why he is angry isn't comfortable or validating. Don't do that. Don't ask why.

You may find that he will share more about why in response to your validation. You can validate that too, and good things may continue... .but the key is that you are open to listening to what he wants to share, instead of probing for or demanding it from him.

Does that make sense?

So... .how long are you willing to give him to help you before you turn to his friend? You might want to consider telling your ex before you do this in the least triggering way possible, giving him one last chance or notification first... .This communication won't be validating, and your ex won't like it... .but we can still help you word it for the best possible result, aka the least destructive result.

Thank you so much again,

Yes it makes sense. I suppose a question "why?" is not validation, but it always used to work well between him and me, but yes he and I are in a very different situation now and also with the stuff going on he seems to be suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome more or less, refusing to see the truth, and defending a person abusing him and so that is a trigger also to shame. The only reason why I wanted to put something that sounds like a clear wish to know more is that he so often won't respond unless there is a question in there. So if I could phrase it as an unthreatening invitation to describe to me what is going on.

Yes, this is my plan to first try for him and me to find a way to work together. But if her refuses to let him know that I have no other option but to contact a friend of his, one that I believe he trusts and that I feel wants his best and has no hidden agenda. I won't tell him who as that will make talking to that friend much harder. After that I will leave it a day or two for him to change his mind and then talk to one or two of his friends. And yes, he will be furious with me probably, sigh!

I can't give him very long because this whole situation is very draining for me on every level. So I will send him something today validating his anger and then again on Monday at the latest unless I have heard back from him before then. And then contact the friends some time this week.

Can I write my suggestion to the email informing him I will need to contact a friend of his in the other thread that I started on the board open to only members?

[Grey Kitty]

A little validation never hurts; go ahead and do that! If you want us to weigh in before you send it, feel free!

Regarding the "why" questions... .caring about his feelings and his reasons (i.e. being interested in his "why" is validating, and that is where it worked before, I'm guessing.

What isn't validating is probing for a "why" from him... .ESPECIALLY if you suspect that there is an unhealthy illogical reason in there and you want to correct it! (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome)

Consider the sort of leading questions a lawyer asks a witness... .starting with something (apparently) harmless, and then leading closer and closer into a "trap" where the witness is forced to admit that they contradicted their earlier story and lied. That is horribly invalidating!

I can't give him very long because this whole situation is very draining for me on every level. So I will send him something today validating his anger and then again on Monday at the latest unless I have heard back from him before then. And then contact the friends some time this week.

Can I write my suggestion to the email informing him I will need to contact a friend of his in the other thread that I started on the board open to only members?

But of course! This is all about helping you in whatever way you find safe.

[mitti]

A little validation never hurts; go ahead and do that! If you want us to weigh in before you send it, feel free!

Regarding the "why" questions... .caring about his feelings and his reasons (i.e. being interested in his "why" is validating, and that is where it worked before, I'm guessing.

What isn't validating is probing for a "why" from him... .ESPECIALLY if you suspect that there is an unhealthy illogical reason in there and you want to correct it! (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome)

Consider the sort of leading questions a lawyer asks a witness... .starting with something (apparently) harmless, and then leading closer and closer into a "trap" where the witness is forced to admit that they contradicted their earlier story and lied. That is horribly invalidating!

I can't give him very long because this whole situation is very draining for me on every level. So I will send him something today validating his anger and then again on Monday at the latest unless I have heard back from him before then. And then contact the friends some time this week.

Can I write my suggestion to the email informing him I will need to contact a friend of his in the other thread that I started on the board open to only members?

But of course! This is all about helping you in whatever way you find safe.

You have been very helpful getting me to see how I could phrase it and avoid the traps of possible triggers. And thank you, yes, I will write back with a suggestion before I send it, probably in an hour or so.

[mitti]

This is what I am thinking of sending him... .

"I hear that you are angry and I accept that this is how you feel and I understand it also because this whole situation with the matter X is very sick and stressful and then I am the one to give you the news, so understandable that it makes you feel angry. I don't want to handle this situation either but non-action has just made it worse. It makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing these things like x posted. So I was wondering how you want to deal with it?"

I have changed it a little bit. In case of an unwanted response he is pre-warned about what is coming. And I get a question in there, not about him or his feelings but how he wants to deal with the issue, hopefully also less triggering.

[Grey Kitty]

My first two thoughts on that are:

1. Lets move this discussion to where you feel comfortable disclosing the rest of it.

2. That draft is trying to do too many things at once, and isn't likely to accomplish any of them very well.

I find that if I am sending a message, it works a lot better if I keep it to a single topic. Even when it isn't a pwBPD I'm contacting!

I see ... .validation of his feelings ... .sharing of your feeling stressed/concerned ... .mention of a specific concern of yours ... .and an open question/request that he address your concern. ... .and perhaps a hint that you will take matters into your own hands in a way he won't like.

How will it be received? In general, Validation + ulterior motive = invalidation.

I'm guessing here... .but I think you are conflicted too, with a couple different goals, and you sound afraid of pissing off your ex, and of not dealing with the other issue... .I think you will be better able to give him a clear message when you have a clear goal.

[mitti]

My first two thoughts on that are:

1. Lets move this discussion to where you feel comfortable disclosing the rest of it.

2. That draft is trying to do too many things at once, and isn't likely to accomplish any of them very well.

I find that if I am sending a message, it works a lot better if I keep it to a single topic. Even when it isn't a pwBPD I'm contacting!

I see ... .validation of his feelings ... .sharing of your feeling stressed/concerned ... .mention of a specific concern of yours ... .and an open question/request that he address your concern. ... .and perhaps a hint that you will take matters into your own hands in a way he won't like.

How will it be received? In general, Validation + ulterior motive = invalidation.

I'm guessing here... .but I think you are conflicted too, with a couple different goals, and you sound afraid of pissing off your ex, and of not dealing with the other issue... .I think you will be better able to give him a clear message when you have a clear goal.

I am starting to feel a little stressed out, not with you but that even just coming up with something to write feels like a minefield.

I don't know if it is an ulterior motive as such. I do want him to deal with it and I am suggesting that he ought to by my question yes, so I feel I am kind of open with what I want. Truth be told I am only validating to get him to calm down sufficiently to hear that and hopefully take it in. I do understand he is angry for the following reasons

» he wants to approach me but it triggers shame

» he doesn't want to approach me and it triggers feelings of abandonment

» he wants me to be available and doesn't know if I am

» he doesn't want me to approach him because it makes him feel engulfed

» because of all the above reasons that I am in his space in his social circle

... .and also the only reason that I feel is safe enough to tell him

» feeling forced to hear about and deal with the situation that we are in

Yes, I am feeling afraid to piss him off. He has got himself so tangled up in this mess and me with it and now he is angry because of his own mess and I cannot tell him because then it will make him more angry and just make it way more difficult to sort anything out.

I do see that receiving this message from me could trigger negative feelings, but I have no idea how to deliver a message he wants. And the reason I wanted to include more than just validation is that he will take the validation and do nothing, and I have to write again. 

I will open a thread on the other board. Thanks for suggesting it.

[Grey Kitty]

I see you as having a couple viable/effective options to communicate with him:

1. Validate that he is angry, and state that want to work with him to resolve the stalking issue.  (Without any specifics about what you need from him, or what you might do going around him... .in this contact)

2. Be specific in stating what you need from him, but skip trying to validate. (You are probably too upset/pissed at him to do a good job anyhow!)

[Grey Kitty]

And a big question for yourself, and perhaps you can get more advice here if you provide more details--I've got no idea myself, given what you've said so far.

When it comes to dealing with this stalker through law enforcement/etc... .how much leverage and how effective will the information you could get from your ex be?

Also, if you go to the friend for the information, will you get the same information? And how likely is the friend to support you in this quest? (You've already established that your ex will feel betrayed by this action)

[mitti]

Truth be told I am only validating to get him to calm down sufficiently to hear that and hopefully take it in.

Reading back I feel this sounds kind of bad and not what I meant. I mean that I am wanting to validate to calm him down, otherwise I would get straight to the point. But I do understand that is feeling angry about how he has messed his life up and doesn't know how to fix anything and placing blame on me for so so many reasons. I can truly understand that, but I can only validate the fact that he gets angry feeling I am forcing him to deal with a situation he doesn't want to deal with.

What he wants is to be left alone with his head in the sand.

[mitti]

And a big question for yourself, and perhaps you can get more advice here if you provide more details--I've got no idea myself, given what you've said so far.

When it comes to dealing with this stalker through law enforcement/etc... .how much leverage and how effective will the information you could get from your ex be?

Also, if you go to the friend for the information, will you get the same information? And how likely is the friend to support you in this quest? (You've already established that your ex will feel betrayed by this action)

Will reply to this first as I need to think and try and wrap my head around what to write to him a little more now.

I have been questioned by the police just a few days ago, though they have informed me already that the preliminary investigation will probably not go any further. It is very damaging to me, and my ex if he could only accept the facts around this, that he isn't showing any interest in resolving this. In fact his actions and his disinterest is one of the reasons the police will not take me seriously. He has also lied to them when questioned re my application for a restraining order. To the police this is a small case as there have been no direct threats to anybody's life and there is so much material which on the face of it seems totally non-sensical. But this woman dedicates hours compiling her harassment texts etc and spends hours online just watching what I do. The stalking part is very difficult to prove but the other can be proven but without my ex's support the police are not interested. To them I am the crazy ex because this is what she and he told them. He was very angry with me at the time but will not straighten this out now. So all of this is very shaming to him.

With his friend it is more a question of giving them information as they have heard only lies about the situation. I doubt they have seen any of the harassment texts etc. that have been sent to me or to him and what I have been sent proves that she is behind it. The friend would probably find it difficult to take the truth in at first but I only ask of anybody that they look at the evidence. She is also a friend of the stalker woman but only through my ex. So if she could see what this woman is doing to him, she should as his friend want to protect him. My fear is that she will refuse to meet with me even, but her and I have a mutual friend that could possibly be supportive in this.

I don't know if I have mentioned this before, but my ex and the stalker have been saying that I am the one sending all these harassment texts.

[mitti]

I see you as having a couple viable/effective options to communicate with him:

1. Validate that he is angry, and state that want to work with him to resolve the stalking issue.  (Without any specifics about what you need from him, or what you might do going around him... .in this contact)

The problem with this is that he has no interest in dealing with the stalking issue. He keeps saying to me that it could be anybody, which is ludicrous at this point. She has sent me private photos of the two of them which he admits she has taken of him and many more details. But he keeps refusing to accept that it cannot be anybody but her. And then he suggests it could be me. He says he will give the police what they want if they ask for it but he will not get more involved than that. So he would just respond that he has no interest in resolving this and that the best thing to do is to ignore it. This is what she wants because then she can continue to send me things and if I contact him about it he gets angry with me and is more likely to go back to her.

I find it very problematic and worrying that he has no sense of self-preservation in all this. Regardless of if he really knows that she is behind it or not he is the victim of serious abuse and he won't deal with. Sorry getting off topic now I feel. But anyway, that is why I thought it might be better to ask him how he wants to deal with the picture that was posted online. I am just thinking that it may feel more difficult for him to say he won't do anything at all the more specific I am than if I talk generally about having to address a stalker situation that he doesn't want to deal with.

2. Be specific in stating what you need from him, but skip trying to validate. (You are probably too upset/pissed at him to do a good job anyhow!)

This would in effect be my second email if I wouldn't get a good response to the first one. But more detailed. I will try and write the second out first and post that. Perhaps this will make it clearer.

I also want to say I really appreciate all your help. This is by far the most difficult situation I have ever found myself in. And very few of my friends are willing to help me. I suppose it is just to disturbing.

[Grey Kitty]

Sorry, I'm failing to see a measurable chance of a favorable outcome from this approach.

Your ex has already lied to the police about the stalking, to blame you / protect the stalker. He's not going to back down on that, or hand you evidence you can give the police. I just don't see that happening.

You can threaten to tell others (like this 3rd friend) about the whole story... .but it isn't going to give you anything that will help you with the police. It is a threat you can hold over your ex... .I don't like operating that way... .and even if you did, I don't now how likely it is to succeed.

My take on involving third parties at this point is that it is already a toxic mess, don't try to make it bigger.

There could be a good reason to share what is going on with you with other people... .besides possible leverage with your ex, that is.


... .


As I see it, the best option I see for you would be telling your ex directly: "The crap stalker is pulling is really upsetting me. You are complicit. I don't want anything more to do with you as a result. Goodbye." And cut all electronic/social media contact with him. Since you share social circles with him, you have a choice about how much you avoid him in person when you are thrown together.

Do you actually trust your ex enough to want to be close to him anymore after all this? From what you've said, I sure wouldn't!

And if the stalking slows down, be grateful. If it doesn't, keep collecting evidence and keep looking for legal avenues to shut it down.

[mitti]

Sorry, I'm failing to see a measurable chance of a favorable outcome from this approach.

Your ex has already lied to the police about the stalking, to blame you / protect the stalker. He's not going to back down on that, or hand you evidence you can give the police. I just don't see that happening.

You can threaten to tell others (like this 3rd friend) about the whole story... .but it isn't going to give you anything that will help you with the police. It is a threat you can hold over your ex... .I don't like operating that way... .and even if you did, I don't now how likely it is to succeed.

My take on involving third parties at this point is that it is already a toxic mess, don't try to make it bigger.

There could be a good reason to share what is going on with you with other people... .besides possible leverage with your ex, that is.

For him it is like this... .

he wants me back but cannot get me back without having to come clean about lying about me, and about believing the stalker woman, let's call her S, so to avoid that he sticks with the current story hoping it will all go away one day, which it won't as S keeps harassing me and also sometimes him. For him it seems worse to come clean about me than defend himself against her abuse, I suppose because the attachment to me scares him more than the abuse from a woman he cannot fathom could be dangerous.

For me it's like this... .

whatever I wanted with him is not important right now after S' latest trick. I need to have this stalker/ harassment situation stop. So long as my ex is "on the other side" so to speak the police will not believe me, or even listen to me long enough to get what this is about. They haven't even looked at all the material I have submitted. They just think this is a case of two women fighting over the same man. Meanwhile S has made my life hell to the point where I am unable to work and have had to leave my job. It has been going on almost two years and the one thing I have tried for months on end is the same thing I keep having suggested to me and not once has it worked. it keeps escalating. So as I see it I have two options

1. Insist that my ex take responsibility, for the situation (apart from the police he is the only one with the power to make this stop) and for himself

2. Involve other people to do #1. This option would also clear my name to many of those that have been fed lies about me.

The reason I need to involve other people is that I am being implicated in this mess and my reputation destroyed. I want my life back. His friends see me as his complicated psycho ex-gf because that is the story he has been telling them. For them to see the evidence I have would exonerate me of any guilt blame etc and they might be able to wake him up from whatever Stockholm Syndrome sleep he is in.

As I see it, the best option I see for you would be telling your ex directly: "The crap stalker is pulling is really upsetting me. You are complicit. I don't want anything more to do with you as a result. Goodbye." And cut all electronic/social media contact with him. Since you share social circles with him, you have a choice about how much you avoid him in person when you are thrown together.

Do you actually trust your ex enough to want to be close to him anymore after all this? From what you've said, I sure wouldn't!

And if the stalking slows down, be grateful. If it doesn't, keep collecting evidence and keep looking for legal avenues to shut it down.

I do like the beginning of your suggestion here. But the second part wouldn't help as I need him to get this resolved. He and I are not friends on social media anyway and have no contact really apart from this, though he seems to both want to and not want to. He would never openly admit to that though. The social setting where we meet is within the dance community. I have been dancing for many many years, also professionally. S has threatened to come to dance classes to disrupt my life. People think that there's no need to defend yourself against backstabbing and smearing but having lived it for years now I can say that is not true. If I do not defend myself against these lies receive validity because I don't.

I realise this is all new here for you reading it, but for me it has been going on for almost two years. For this long this has been my every single day almost. I don't receive things every day but when I don't I worry what will come next because after a pause it usually escalates.

[Grey Kitty]

There is one thing I've got a problem with in your description/plan:

Everything depends upon willing cooperation on the part of your ex with you against the stalker.

You say you "need this".

That sounds like you need a pig to fly. Doesn't matter how much you need it, it ain't gonna happen. At least that fits what you've told me about your ex and his r/s with the stalker, and his behavior that you've described.

What can you do to improve your own life and your own situation if you assume that your ex will never cooperate with you against the stalker?

[mitti]

There is one thing I've got a problem with in your description/plan:

Everything depends upon willing cooperation on the part of your ex with you against the stalker.

You say you "need this".

That sounds like you need a pig to fly. Doesn't matter how much you need it, it ain't gonna happen. At least that fits what you've told me about your ex and his r/s with the stalker, and his behavior that you've described.

Ok I see  ... .but I don't know of a single pig that has ever been able to fly but my ex has been cooperative at times and also has worked really hard at times to get me back. So what I mean is that no matter how much I need a pig to fly it never will because it is an impossibility but with my ex it all depends on what he wants the most and what he wants the least but he is definitely not physically or mentally unable to do what I need for him to do. It is all just a matter of what motivates him the most, negatively or positively. So far I have been trying to make him see the positive outcome of doing the right thing, but if not, I would be turning to his friends, although that too would actually help him, he would obviously not see it that way - at least not at first - and so it would be a type of negative reinforcement. But it would still serve him better in the long run than remaining in status quo.

What can you do to improve your own life and your own situation if you assume that your ex will never cooperate with you against the stalker?

That would be #2 as was also suggested to me by the professional within the psychiatric care that I talked to. He said informing people around us was paramount as it makes it much less possible for S to continue. So far I haven't done that except for a few of my friends because I didn't know how it would be received and also to not ruin his life.

[Grey Kitty]

Hey... .I'm just guessing from what you've said here... .I don't know your ex, and I don't know how cooperative he is.

I totally believe that your ex could cooperate with you, especially if you asked in a nice way.

The issue (as I see it) is this: Your ex has to choose between you and the stalker. I can think of two specific scenarios where he's NOT going to help you against her:

• He has painted you black and your stalker white. [This fits his last communications with you]



• He is more afraid of consequences from the stalker than from you (or others). [You suggest he has Stockholm syndrome, and pretty clearly describe her as nuts and dangerous... .but he is kinda-sorta back in a relationship with her!]

This has been going on for two years. Has your ex cooperated with you in dealing with it (especially when there could be negative consequences for her) before?

[livednlearned]

Hi mitti,

This sounds like an awful situation.

There are probably limits to how much insight we can share about sociopathic behavior here. That falls outside the scope of collective wisdom on this board, which is primarily BPD and NPD, and primarily around issues that go down in family law court.

We also aren't lawyers and can't give legal advice. What we can share is collective wisdom from people who suffer from PTSD, anxiety, depression, who came here with weak boundaries, and who, through our ordeals, had to develop a titanium backbone of boundaries in order to get the courts to believe us, to find us credible so we could protect ourselves and our kids. There is a lot of phoenix rising from the ashes on this particular board because court has so much power to take away and give power, much as you are experiencing with stalking and harassment laws.

The lessons summarized on this board are: If you want to make things better, you have to be prepared for radical changes to your approach.  

Have you consulted a lawyer? Or two or three? Like all experts, competence can vary a lot, and you can get vastly different responses depending on who you talk to. Keep talking to experts, keeping collective advice, until you have a solid opinion about what is plausible advice and what is advice you can discard. You have a hard problem to solve, so it's going to take some legwork to figure out an effective solution.

Police aren't likely to give you legal advice (and shouldn't), and mental health professionals can't either (and shouldn't). Both police and mental health professionals may not understand how your problem should be approached and handled because they are going to see everything through their own lens of expertise. All experts tend to feel expert in areas they are not, in my experience   so it's on us to make sure we know who is talking out their you-know-what, and figuring out what is useful and what is not. The lawyers and mental health professionals involved in my case were all excellent, and they also tended to overreach a little when trying to help me solve complex situations. I had to piece together the best plan by stitching together expertise from everyone who had an angle on my problem, and fine-tuning it until I had a strategy, and even then I had to adjust that strategy and respond to new advice, new considerations. It's part of dealing with complex situations -- keep digging.

One thought related to the above: I suspected my ex of surveillance software on my son's smartphone, my family law attorney recommended I get a forensic IT investigator involved. If IT guy found something, then I was potentially looking at getting a criminal lawyer. If you are short on evidence, maybe you need to get a forensic IT investigator involved?

It's a slightly different situation in terms of details; the paranoia, sleeplessness, PTSD, extreme worry and fear, feelings of helplessness -- these feelings are the same. Maybe there are some similar solutions you can add to your puzzle, like lawyer + forensic IT guy.

One thing I will say from my experience dealing with law enforcement and lawyers: you have to help yourself. Law enforcement and lawyers are jaded by watching victims re-victimize themselves through their own choices. Same with judges. They see a lot of repeat customers and it makes them lose faith in humanity. When you change that dynamic, you catch their attention and jiggle that part of them that genuinely wants to help someone who wants to help themselves because it can be relatively rare in their world.

An example is: if you say this stalker is victimizing you based on an an on-again, off-again relationship with your ex, then by all means do not reconcile the relationship with your ex. If getting evidence/information from a friend will help your case, then by all means do not worry about triggering your ex. If your ex will not help you, and is in fact undermining your credibility in his testimony to police, then by all means do not expect him to be your ally. If police don't believe you and aren't taking you seriously because there is no evidence, then you take them seriously and make getting credible evidence your number one priority. If that means upsetting your easily-triggered, not-at-all-helpful ex, then you make that your number one priority. Not saying you are doing any or these things, only to give you examples of what it means to be a credible victim intent on finding an effective solution.

If eliminating the stalker from your life is priority #1, you have to make two things your goal: 1. get plausible evidence and 2. make sure you are credible. You have to kind of get out of your own perspective and look at your story from the perspective of people who have the power to help you. Not always fun! And often very difficult, and very uncomfortable, and very hard. And also very necessary.

It's not fair, and it's also how it is.  

One thing my BPD experience taught me is that yes, he can try to victimize me. That does not mean I have to be a victim. That mindset helped me help myself and it drew people to me that wanted to help, and did help.



LnL