Contact: Emotional Aftermath

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My choices here are simple ... .do I reply or not.  If I choose to reply then it becomes a bit more complicated as what I say will dictate what happens between us from this point forward.

Perhaps it would make it less complicated, as an actual interaction would leave no room for fantasy that could  easily keep you stuck for months.

[BorisAcusio]

My choices here are simple ... .do I reply or not.  If I choose to reply then it becomes a bit more complicated as what I say will dictate what happens between us from this point forward.

Perhaps it would make it less complicated, as an actual interaction would leave no room for fantasy that could  easily keep you stuck for months.

[C.Stein]

I'd suggest that the "best" interpretation would be that she's too waifish to admit to it... .

I agree.  An apology for her would be an admission of guilt and I truly believe she has convinced herself she did nothing wrong.  This is what she needs to believe and it is easier for her to paint me black than accept responsibility for anything.  I have become her scapegoat.

I think the question of what you want comes ahead of the question of what to say (if anything)

Do you want to recycle? (Probably not, and she's probably not interested)

This is a difficult one to answer.  If she did not replace me or have an affair then I might be open to it.  If the timing of this move means she has stabilized her career, this is something we had been working towards from day one of our relationship.  It is something I had come to believe would also lead to stabilizing her inner turmoil and by extension our relationship ... .and we were so close to getting there.  This makes it all the more painful and harder to let her go.

Do you want to become close friends with her someday?

I don't think that is possible with her.  I don't think she has any really "close" friends, except her housemate which is simply a matter of exposure.  She would probably say she does but I believe if you look closely at her friends the relationships are pretty shallow.  At this point in time I cannot emotionally handle being a friend.  I can not watch her live the life we had been working towards for two years.  Regardless of what happened between us there is a part of me that wanted it all to work out ... .to achieve our personal and relationship goals together.  Part of me still wants this even if I know the likelihood of happily ever after is slim under even the best conditions.

Do you want her as a distant friend / acquaintance?

Same as above.

Do you want to be civil with her should you ever encounter her again?

At some point it may be possible, but not until I have reached the point of indifference.

Do you want her out of your life?

I don't know.  I both do and don't.  This would be the reason why I am having a difficult time deciding if I should reply and what I would say if I did.

Perhaps it would make it less complicated, as an actual interaction would leave no room for fantasy that could  easily keep you stuck for months.

Very good point.  

[zeus123]

C. Stein. I am sorry to ask you this but did you think about seeing a therapist at this time?

[Grey Kitty]

Here's what I'm getting from you about what you want:

You wish you could have something with her, romantic or otherwise.

You don't trust her as a romantic partner because she cheated and/or replaced you immediately.

You don't think she has the capacity to be a close, intimate friend without an enmeshed romantic relationship.

And you are still too full of feelings for her to be comfortable around her while keeping the emotional connection down near zero.

[C.Stein]

C. Stein. I am sorry to ask you this but did you think about seeing a therapist at this time?

To what end?  

IMO this forum is a far more valuable tool for healing the wounds incurred from this relationship and for working through the issues I am having at this point.  A therapist is but one point of view and a good chance is one that doesn't include experiencing a relationship with a borderline.   Five months ago I was considering it and probably would have helped, but that time has come and gone.

Here's what I'm getting from you about what you want:

You wish you could have something with her, romantic or otherwise.

She was a meaningful and important part of my life for 2 years.  It is hard to let that go, so yes.  She was a valued friend while we were together and good friends are hard to come by IMO.  Whether she can be that friend again, outside a romantic relationship, is a question only she can answer.  When I asked her if we could be friends again at some point her answer was "I will probably never come back here again".  I don't know if that sentiment has changed nor am I really clear on why coming back here would be a requirement for friendship.

If she can demonstrate her ability to participate in a healthy romantic relationship then that might also be on the table.  One way to do this I suppose would be to participate in a healthy friendship.  Too much time will be required for all this to happen I think. 

She is desperate/obsessed with the "need" for a child and the healthy relationship is not a priority for her, or I fear, even required.  This was my biggest hangup with the whole family issue during our relationship.  It also represents one of my biggest regrets because I never discussed this with her.

You don't trust her as a romantic partner because she cheated and/or replaced you immediately.

I waiver on this but for the most part the answer at this point in time is no I don't but that isn't the only reason.  Perhaps my biggest fear was/is I don't know if she trusts herself and her ability to deceive, not only me but herself.  Also her propensity to act without considering the consequences and then run when it is too hard to face the damage quite frankly scares the living s### out of me, especially when the word "family" is thrown in. 

That said, there is a possibility I could rebuild trust in her but that can only happen with a lot of effort on her part and if she is able to completely trust herself.   She didn't make any attempt to rebuild my trust during the last 6 months of our relationship and I don't know if anything has changed at this point.  The "clean slate" replacement was the easier path for her to walk apparently.  Has anything changed at this point in time I can't say.  Chances are better than not nothing has changed with respect to this.

I know she has the capacity for self-reflection and change and this is the confusing thing about her.  What I don't know is if she has the emotional maturity and strength/desire to sustain the changes she needs to make in order to confront and resolve these issues within herself.  It is this unknown component that keeps me on the fence here.

You don't think she has the capacity to be a close, intimate friend without an enmeshed romantic relationship.

She may be able to ... .she is close with her housemate although there are extenuating circumstances with that relationship.   With me, given the history, I can't say without knowing if she has faced her demons, so to speak.

And you are still too full of feelings for her to be comfortable around her while keeping the emotional connection down near zero.

I am still emotionally vulnerable and raw.  Indifference and acceptance have eluded me to this point, but I am significantly closer to those than I was 4 months ago.  Once I get to that point then I suspect the emotional component will no longer be a problem.  That said, I can't be 100% certain as the emotions surrounding this woman are like none I have ever experienced.

[Grey Kitty]

OK, so you sound confused, conflicted, and reluctant to respond to her, and that sounds about right to me.

Besides... .unless you want to make arrangements to pick up that last box of stuff, she didn't say anything that merited a response. So unless you want to deal with the box, don't reply... .until you know what you want, and figure out what you want to say to increase your chance of getting it.

[C.Stein]

OK, so you sound confused, conflicted, and reluctant to respond to her, and that sounds about right to me.

That pretty much sums it up. 

Besides... .unless you want to make arrangements to pick up that last box of stuff, she didn't say anything that merited a response.

Correct.  This is one of the reasons why I think she wants to hear from me.  She wants to know one way or the other, but all she really needs to know is if I want the stuff back.

So unless you want to deal with the box, don't reply... .until you know what you want, and figure out what you want to say to increase your chance of getting it.

I haven't replied yet and may not.  There are things I want to say but I don't really know how to say them without producing an undesired effect.

One of the things that bothers me the most is her choosing to reply to that particular email without saying anything about it.  Granted there wasn't much to reply to except denying my conclusions and/or show some remorse and apologize.  I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).   You then take this with the reason for email and it gives the appearance she places a higher value on a few insignificant items that she does me.  She had zero problem throwing me away like a piece of trash yet couldn't throw these items away.  Granted I don't think she is capable of being that subtle but the implication is still there.  Perhaps I am reading too much into it ... .or not. 

This week has been a difficult one as I have had to spend a lot of time in locations where her "ghost" is everywhere.  I have found myself remember how good we were together, how comfortable and compatible we were with each other, how much I valued sharing my life with her.   It has generated a great deal of sadness and feelings of loss as well as anger.  Anger for what she did and anger at myself for a variety of reasons.

[Sunfl0wer]

I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).

I think the only thing you can actually assume:

This person is not available to 'see' your emotional experience.

Her behavior communicates that.

[C.Stein]

I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).

I think the only thing you can actually assume:

This person is not available to 'see' your emotional experience.

Her behavior communicates that.

Yes, by all appearances this is true, and I might say see or care.  This is what makes this whole email confusing to me, especially given the finality and coldness of her last communication to me last year.  Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.  It would have been far easier for her to just throw the stuff away.

[Sunfl0wer]

Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.

One possibility:

Her interest is solely about her own feelings.

Maybe... .

Attention seeking to seem desirable

Painting an image towards you of a gal who is moving on, to 'control' your perspective of her.

Soothing her own guilt

Etc.

The painful reality for me with my ex:

My feelings and whole self were often only relevant for how they served his 'needs.'

This was a reality I fought inside me for a very very long time.  

Feeling insignificant is a personal core wound feeling for me.

Do you want to feel significant to her in some way?

Edit: btw, I do still have a tiny part of me that would appreciate being acknowledged by him for having some significance, or some appreciation.  I have not found a 100% resolution of this.

[tryingsome]

Yes, by all appearances this is true, and I might say see or care.  This is what makes this whole email confusing to me, especially given the finality and coldness of her last communication to me last year.  Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.  It would have been far easier for her to just throw the stuff away.

Stein, I'll be a little blunt; I think you are reading way too many emotions into this terse email. I understand you have had a long relationship and the feelings you too shared and any normal person could not write an email without it being somewhat emotional. But I don't think this is the case here; it appears to be done.

Take this in point; you and a good buddy have been friends for a long time. He says he is leaving town. He says he has a few things of your at his place (like the book you loaned him, or casserole dish from the BBQ, etc). He is being a friend, letting you know. This is what a normal person would do.

This is what your Ex is doing. She is just letting you know; as from the sounds of this email there is no romantic connection. You are just a person she is informing.

You can't have a history without emotions coming to the service. This is a normal thing. But a pwBPD can separate those emotions in the now (or let them all pour out). They have an uncanny ability to do so.

Try not to read too many emotions into the email. They are not there. She would definitely know how she feels; as wasn't this always the case?

Now, I am not saying you can't steer it that way; but that is not the intent she left here.

[C.Stein]

One possibility:

Her interest is solely about her own feelings.

Maybe... .

Attention seeking to seem desirable

Painting an image towards you of a gal who is moving on, to 'control' your perspective of her.

Soothing her own guilt

Etc.

These all are possible.

The painful reality for me with my ex:

My feelings and whole self were often only relevant for how they served his 'needs.'

This was a reality I fought inside me for a very very long time.  

Feeling insignificant is a personal core wound feeling for me.

Do you want to feel significant to her in some way?

Yes, this is something I struggle with as well.

Try not to read too many emotions into the email. They are not there. She would definitely know how she feels; as wasn't this always the case?

I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

[Grey Kitty]

I was going to chime in and say you are reading too much into the unstated or subtle vague hints (like which email she decided to reply to) until I read this.

She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

And my question for you is how do you think you can have a worthwhile romantic relationship with someone who does this?

You don't know what she's thinking or feeling, or how much it changes from minute to minute. You don't know if you mean anything to her, or what it is.

You do know that she's chosen not to reveal that to you one more time.

This is who she is, and this is the person you are deciding whether it is safe to tell her anything more of what you are feeling.

[once removed]

c stein, i dont think its unreasonable to read into the email, or the fact that she chose to send it RE yours. i just dont think you have to. it has no real bearing on how you choose to respond, or not.

if you thought that email was a clear indication that she totally wants you back (you didnt suggest that i know) id take your word for it. whatever you read into it, i suggest treating it literally and taking it at face value.

then decide if you want to respond, or not. and if you do, how (based upon your goal). reading into it may be getting in the way of that decision making process.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.  

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.

[jhkbuzz]

I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.  

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.

W.O.W... .that... .^... .

[whispy90]

There is no closure here.  Her coldness post trash bin has been one of the things that has stuck with me.  How easy it was for her to replace me and delete me from her life like she never felt anything for me at all.   It is hard to accept that someone who you were/are deeply in love with can throw you away with apparent ease and no remorse, guilt or regret.  That she obviously did not really feel the deep love for me that she claimed to have and I was nothing more than an object to be thrown away when I was no longer useful or needed.

I identify with this SO much. I'm going through the same thing.  My ex reached out  after months of unexpectedly dumping me and blocking my number only to selfishly absolve his own guilt (he wanted to know I was "ok" so he could feel better about dumping me). It escalated to insanity of a phone conversation that was awful and confirmed he did not care at all about my wellbeing, to finally me running into him on purpose. He has 100% moved on.  He has painted me black and discredited and insulted me. He couldn't even look me in the eye.  He told me how much his friends hated me. He told me to stop being obsessed with him.  He told me that he couldn't handle that I wanted a relationship like a ":)isney fairy tale". He told me to get away from him and to let him be happy without me.  He admitted everything nice he said to me was only an act, and I have no idea who he really is.  He has forgotten everything we ever shared and threw me out like garbage. I am so devastated and heartbroken.

[whispy90]

Stein, I'll be a little blunt; I think you are reading way too many emotions into this terse email. I understand you have had a long relationship and the feelings you too shared and any normal person could not write an email without it being somewhat emotional. But I don't think this is the case here; it appears to be done.

I second this, only because I did the EXACT same thing when my ex reached out to me via email.  I read so far into it.  I tried to find hidden meaning.  I thought it meant he felt the same as me, and secretly still loved me and wanted a relationship. 

I had to find out the hard way that the most obvious answer- and the hardest to accept- was that there WAS no hidden meaning.  I spend every day trying so hard not to reach out to me, but for him, I was just a passing thought during boredom.  He had to be very blunt with me that it was meant only platonically, he regretted doing it, he just didn't want to 'cut me off' from his life completely but he made it clear that our romantic relationship was now and forever over.  This hurt so much.  I am still reeling from this humiliating reaction.

The truth is, both of our exes have moved on.  If you have ever moved on with an ex, think about how you feel about them.  That is how your BPD partner feels.  We no longer hold importance or priority in their life, because they have shifted their focus on a new target.  If they still had us as a priority, we would know it.  They would still be treating us sweetly as they once did instead of abandoned us.  They don't feel that great, longing pull.  They don't imagine a future with us.  They never really did in the first place- they are not capable of such love.   I'm warning you that if you engage in contact, it will likely only confirm exactly this.  I went through this pain and it was a major, major setback.  People with BPD compartmentalize, justify their actions, and write people off in order to detach easily.   They will never, ever understand us, just like we will never understand them.

The question remains- why do we still love? hope? I wish I knew.  I wish I could give my love to someone who would accept me and love me back rather than my BPD ex.

[C.Stein]

And my question for you is how do you think you can have a worthwhile romantic relationship with someone who does this?

You don't know what she's thinking or feeling, or how much it changes from minute to minute. You don't know if you mean anything to her, or what it is.

You do know that she's chosen not to reveal that to you one more time.

This is who she is, and this is the person you are deciding whether it is safe to tell her anything more of what you are feeling.

This is all true GK and I am not trying to sugar coat this reality.   I will say that clear and concise communication is something that is difficult at times when emotions are involved, even for the most open, balanced and stable person.  Communication issues can be fixed though.  I gave up trying to fix the communication issues for several reasons.  This is another one of my regrets.

I am trying to decide what to say, if I decide to reply at all.  It is a risk for me, emotionally speaking.  I am trying to be realistic and objective about my feelings and situation here.  She opened the door to communication and it was one she didn't need to open.



Make no mistake here, I am under no illusion she feels anything for me at this point or that I want to reconcile, even if the chance were there which it is not.  On the contrary, she has given me every reason to believe she feels nothing at all for me and is very likely incapable of being in a truly loving and caring relationship built on mutual honesty, trust and respect.   The overall tone of the email says she has "happily" moved on, which of course hurts which may have been her subtle intent here.  I saw this tone as soon as I read the email and I am not trying to overlook that or pretend it says something it doesn't.

She made it abundantly clear last year her feelings for me were not real and they were as disposable as I was.  I honestly believe she has painted me black to the point where I have no redeeming qualities in her eyes, nothing she finds valuable or worthy of her love or time.  I do not think this will ever change.  She has to do this for her own emotional survival and I understand this.

Beyond the very likely attempt to sooth the shame and guilt there is a good possibility this could be a "friendzone" attempt ... .an invitation to be tethered into her "friend" orbit much like her ex before me.  I gave her every reason to believe this was an option in the note I sent her in late December.  This possibility is what I am struggling with here.  One of the things I have had the hardest time with has been becoming the latest ex (in every way) and the emotional pain that distinction brings with it.  It is also difficult because the friend side of her is the person I fell in love with and by extension what I miss the most.

At one point in time I saw a very bright future with her and admittedly has been very difficult to let that go.  It was one of the reasons why I excused a lot of her hurtful behavior.  As with most children I had a dream/vision of my future.  Over the past 30 years of my adult life I have held onto that dream/vision, waiting for the right woman to share it with.  Before my ex there was only one that I even considered sharing that dream/vision with but circumstances and timing were not right.  Eventually I just came to believe I would never find the woman I wanted to share this with.  When I met my ex I truly felt I had finally found the one I would let into this very private and personal dream/vision.  Eventually I did let her in and that dream/vision became our dream/vision.  This wasn't illusion or fantasy as the idealization period was anything but ideal.  I based this on an objective look at the shared beliefs and things we had in common and how compatible we were for a long term relationship.  While it wasn't a "perfect" match, as there is no such thing, it was the closest I had ever come.

Perhaps it is this loss, the loss of the dream/vision and the woman I had finally let in to see and share that with is why I have had such a hard time letting go.  It is probably why I am struggling so much with this email.  At this point in my life I know, if I am being honest with myself, that the chances of finding this again before I kick the bucket are slim to none.  This isn't me being a defeatist but rather just being realistic.

So you all may be asking, what the hell does this have to do with anything?  It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.

c stein, i dont think its unreasonable to read into the email, or the fact that she chose to send it RE yours. i just dont think you have to. it has no real bearing on how you choose to respond, or not.

if you thought that email was a clear indication that she totally wants you back (you didnt suggest that i know) id take your word for it. whatever you read into it, i suggest treating it literally and taking it at face value.

then decide if you want to respond, or not. and if you do, how (based upon your goal). reading into it may be getting in the way of that decision making process.

I agree with what you are saying and how I choose to interpret the email is entirely my decision ... .take it at face value or not.  It doesn't have to be complicated.

My biggest hangup here is the emotions surrounding this woman.  No reply does not close or open any doors.  It will probably make further attempts to reach out more difficult for her.  A reply could go either way depending on what I say.

Do I risk opening the door a little more?  :)o I want to open myself to be "friendzoned"?  

This is what I struggle with and I am on the fence.  I know without a doubt finding out about her new life will devastate me at this point in time.  Any reply short of slamming the door shut again exposes me to this.  No reply also potentially exposes me to this.  

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.

This is not a possibility.  My trepidation about this email was entirely about the emotions it would stir up and how those would impact me.  I didn't really desire an email from her in the manner you a speaking of, what I have wanted is Accountability.  

I second this, only because I did the EXACT same thing when my ex reached out to me via email.  I read so far into it.  I tried to find hidden meaning.  I thought it meant he felt the same as me, and secretly still loved me and wanted a relationship.

I'm not looking for that kind of hidden meaning.  There is no doubt in my mind she has no real feelings for me and there is no avoiding this fact.  I have been painted black until the end of time ... .this is just how she is.  This isn't saying I wouldn't like to know she still "loves" me, whatever that means, but I am not secretly hoping or waiting for any such declaration because I know it will never come.  

[Sunfl0wer]

It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.

If what you are seeking is understanding why this has impacted you... .

You need to look inside of you. 

Not towards her.

You need to question and face yourself:

(By the way, much greater challenge to face oneself than another)

What am I longing for?

Because, you can remove her, however the longing remains. (Even if after lots of NC it goes dormant) It may not seem like it, but your desire is independent of her and exists within you without her.  She just helps bring it to your conscious awareness.

This is why self care alleviates our pain better than any external force.  Because ultimately all pain comes from ourselves.

Yet, of course, these are just humble opinions of a mere Sunflower plant.

[zeus123]

I agree with Sunflower you need to look at yourself not towards her, you need to question and face yourself. Don't allow an impaired/distorted brain of a BPD impact you. You know better!

[C.Stein]

It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.

If what you are seeking is understanding why this has impacted you... .

You need to look inside of you.  

Not towards her.

I am curious why you think I am looking towards her for answers?  She can't provide me with any answers, especially with regard to my own emotions.  What I am trying to do here is understand my emotions so I can make a decision based on rational and logical thought.

[Grey Kitty]

Make no mistake here, I am under no illusion she feels anything for me at this point or that I want to reconcile, even if the chance were there which it is not.  On the contrary, she has given me every reason to believe she feels nothing at all for me and is very likely incapable of being in a truly loving and caring relationship built on mutual honesty, trust and respect.   The overall tone of the email says she has "happily" moved on, which of course hurts which may have been her subtle intent here.  I saw this tone as soon as I read the email and I am not trying to overlook that or pretend it says something it doesn't.

You aren't the first person to say something like this here. I'm sure you won't be the last. In your case, she has pretty much told you this directly. And the mixed messages you've had make it pretty clear that her feelings aren't what you thought they were.

That said, from what I know about pwBPD both direct and indirect, what I'd believe is that she does have feelings for you. Conflicted and complicated feelings. Changeable and inconsistent feelings. But very real ones.

Further, if she didn't feel anything, she wouldn't even be telegraphing little hints at you. She wouldn't be waiting months to reply, but then doing it. You compare your role the way her last ex was when you were together with her. Even if that is true, don't you think she still had some feelings for her last ex?

She made it abundantly clear last year her feelings for me were not real and they were as disposable as I was.  I honestly believe she has painted me black to the point where I have no redeeming qualities in her eyes, nothing she finds valuable or worthy of her love or time.  I do not think this will ever change.  She has to do this for her own emotional survival and I understand this.

Yes, does say things like that... .and she does mean them, and probably believe them too. But even that doesn't make them true at a deep level. If she didn't care about you, she wouldn't bother painting you black. She would treat you the way she treats a total stranger, with disinterest, instead of disdain.

Beyond the very likely attempt to sooth the shame and guilt there is a good possibility this could be a "friendzone" attempt ... .an invitation to be tethered into her "friend" orbit much like her ex before me.  I gave her every reason to believe this was an option in the note I sent her in late December.  This possibility is what I am struggling with here.  One of the things I have had the hardest time with has been becoming the latest ex (in every way) and the emotional pain that distinction brings with it.  It is also difficult because the friend side of her is the person I fell in love with and by extension what I miss the most. 

 I'm sorry that the friend thing isn't likely to work out for you. It really is a tough loss.

What I've seen 'round here is that a pwBPD who tries to be "friends" ends up applying enough push-pull into the friendship that on the pull, it is as emotionally intimate as a romantic relationship was (without the sex), and cycles to being painted black just like happened in the previous romantic relationship.

There may be exceptions, but that does seem to be the rule. (Unless there is a full-on recycle back to a romantic r/s)

And yours sounds uninterested in trying, at least for now.

[once removed]

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

[HurtinNW]

S. Stein, I'm curious, if you are okay sharing, what exactly is your dream vision? What about it makes it unlikely you will find another partner that can help fulfill it?

Also, have you considered that her dedication to this vision was as flighty and changeable as her, and hence, she never was the one to go with you in that direction? That you could be chaining your loss to an illusion?

This is sideways to this thread, but it seems to me a crucial part here is your conviction that you will be toes up alone if you let go of this relationship, because no one else will join your dreams of the future. I completely understand that because I am feeling the same. I wonder if part of the challenge here is addressing your own dreams and visions and hope for the future. Not her. If your dream and vision is very unique (you want to find a partner who will live in a yellow yurt and raise donkeys for the rest of your lives) then perhaps you need to consider where your dream itself is realistic.

Our dreams and visions are not immutable. We can change them.

[C.Stein]

You aren't the first person to say something like this here. I'm sure you won't be the last. In your case, she has pretty much told you this directly. And the mixed messages you've had make it pretty clear that her feelings aren't what you thought they were.

That said, from what I know about pwBPD both direct and indirect, what I'd believe is that she does have feelings for you. Conflicted and complicated feelings. Changeable and inconsistent feelings. But very real ones.

Further, if she didn't feel anything, she wouldn't even be telegraphing little hints at you. She wouldn't be waiting months to reply, but then doing it. You compare your role the way her last ex was when you were together with her. Even if that is true, don't you think she still had some feelings for her last ex?

I do understand she once had feelings for me, even love or what she believes to be love.  While it may not have been deep or true love, she probably felt it was at one time and those feelings were very real to her in that moment.  I also understand the most probable reasons why her heart went so utterly cold, why it was so easy for her to let go of her feelings and of me.  I also realize her cold heart and apparent lack of feelings is very real, real to her and real to me. 

Perhaps she does have complicated and conflicting emotions, it is the nature of BPD.  If she finds herself having to replace love with hate for me then I accept her hate regardless of how much it may hurt.  I must do this for myself, to honor and be true to myself and the love I once shared with her.

She may still have feelings for her ex before me, certainly there were some still there at the beginning of our relationship.  According to her he was also the only person to dump her.  She now keeps him in her friend "orbit" because he has something useful to her and he lets her use him for that.  I honestly don't know if it goes any further than that.

Yes, does say things like that... .and she does mean them, and probably believe them too. But even that doesn't make them true at a deep level. If she didn't care about you, she wouldn't bother painting you black. She would treat you the way she treats a total stranger, with disinterest, instead of disdain.

I see the black paint a bit differently here.  She paints me black because it is what she needs to do for her own emotional survival.  It really has nothing to do with me or any feelings for me, I just happen to be the most convenient scapegoat.

I'm sorry that the friend thing isn't likely to work out for you. It really is a tough loss.

What I've seen 'round here is that a pwBPD who tries to be "friends" ends up applying enough push-pull into the friendship that on the pull, it is as emotionally intimate as a romantic relationship was (without the sex), and cycles to being painted black just like happened in the previous romantic relationship.

There may be exceptions, but that does seem to be the rule. (Unless there is a full-on recycle back to a romantic r/s)

And yours sounds uninterested in trying, at least for now.

Yea, this is what I am trying to get a handle on, the potential pros/cons of allowing the door to open a little more or slamming it shut.   Of one thing I am certain.  There is more going on here than simply returning some items to me.  Whether it is malicious in intent or throwing out a tether I am uncertain.  It could be both and it could be neither.  I told her when we exchanged items last year if she didn't want the things I gave her to throw them away.  There was no need for her to return these items to me even if she had reason to believe I would want them back.

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

I do not care about the stuff ... .so no, I need not reply even though she asked to let her know one way or the other.

[C.Stein]

S. Stein, I'm curious, if you are okay sharing, what exactly is your dream vision? What about it makes it unlikely you will find another partner that can help fulfill it?

It is a vision of my slice of the "American dream" and of the partner to share that with.  What makes it unlikely that is I'm on the other side of the hill realistically speaking and it took nearly 30 years to find her.  Statistically speaking the odds are not in my favor.

Also, have you considered that her dedication to this vision was as flighty and changeable as her, and hence, she never was the one to go with you in that direction? That you could be chaining your loss to an illusion?

No, this is not the case.  Parts of her vision were the same as mine.  This is what made it so special, and this wasn't a case of mirroring either.   This vision/dream is something she desperately wants ... .even feels she needs.  Her desire for this was anything but flighty and changeable.  If anything it was the most consistent thing about her.

This is sideways to this thread, but it seems to me a crucial part here is your conviction that you will be toes up alone if you let go of this relationship, because no one else will join your dreams of the future. I completely understand that because I am feeling the same. I wonder if part of the challenge here is addressing your own dreams and visions and hope for the future. Not her. If your dream and vision is very unique (you want to find a partner who will live in a yellow yurt and raise donkeys for the rest of your lives) then perhaps you need to consider where your dream itself is realistic.

I won't be toes up alone.  I have people in my life who care deeply for me and I them.   That said it is not the same as someone you romantically connect to on a deep and intimate level. This is what I had with the ex and it was a connection unlike any other ... .BPD hooks aside.

[whispy90]

I had the dream vision with my ex, too.  However, I think my mind deceived me into think he actually wanted the same, or was emotionally capable of the same.  When things were good between us, I had never felt happier or more at home.  My love and desire for him never faltered, despite our problems.  Once he saw me for the flawed human being I was, and once I tried increasing the intensity of our relationship (talking about moving in, or going on vacation, etc.), he withdrew, painted me black and bailed.  It was a complete 180 for him overnight.   

My dream with him was very vivid. At times, he told me he wanted the same thing.  It wasn't until that "dream" started to become real that he freaked out and told me that he never wanted any of that, and couldn't possibly imagine being with me long-term.  I think I still care about him only because I am traumatized.  I want my dream back.  I can't imagine putting my heart out there again like I did for him.  I have such intense feelings toward him, it's hard to accept that I am now a non-entity to him. 

As for what you should reply, that is up to you.  But don't expect a reply in return.  I don't think any outcome will result in you feeling better.  I think being friends with her would only serve to torment you.  I  think we need to similarly erase these people from our memories and life in order to move on.  I haven't figured out how to do this yet.  But continued contact makes moving on impossible.

[Grey Kitty]

I see the black paint a bit differently here.  She paints me black because it is what she needs to do for her own emotional survival.  It really has nothing to do with me or any feelings for me, I just happen to be the most convenient scapegoat.

True, her painting you black has nothing to do with you. However if she had no emotional charge at all left on you, you wouldn't function well as a scapegoat. This is kinda subtle--it both is and isn't about you at the same time... .

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

I do not care about the stuff ... .so no, I need not reply even though she asked to let her know one way or the other.

Since you don't care about the stuff (the face value question), I suggest you don't answer the face value question.


... .

The most important thing is that you are still sorting yourself out on the emotional/relationship/whatever level, and you aren't ready to respond to her yet there.

Until you are ready with that, I'd suggest no reply at all.

[C.Stein]

The most important thing is that you are still sorting yourself out on the emotional/relationship/whatever level, and you aren't ready to respond to her yet there.

Until you are ready with that, I'd suggest no reply at all.

I agree.  This has brought a lot of emotions to the surface that I had thought were finally fading into the background.  I need to understand those emotions and exactly why I am feeling them before I make any decision here.  If this is a covert "friendzone" attempt I need to decide if I want to be relegated to that role, to allow myself essentially to be used.

One thing this email has shown me is she could not face me for whatever reason.  If her intent was not to hurt me this also shows she still acts without consideration to the impact/consequences of her actions.