Keeping my mouth shut

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I've 'learnt' that life is better with my BPDgf if I just say much less.

It doesn't make for a very good relationship, but it does seem to make things not as bad. I always thought that couples should try and talk through issues and problems, but even if I implement the SET method for most of our conversations and constantly validate, I inevitably provide some basis upon which she can launch an attack against me.

For instance, a few days ago my partner was b___ing about one of her friends. I simply agreed with what she was saying, validating her and providing support. Fast forward to today, I am attacked for being so negative about her friends, for trying to break up her friendships, for trying to control her and who she talks to. In her words, there is no wonder none of her friends like me, they can all see straight through me and know what kind of guy I am... .whatever that means.

My gf came out of her session with her psychiatrist crying yesterday and I tried to comfort her, ask if there was anything I could do and ask if she wanted to talk about it. She said no and that I should stop trying to pry into her life, so I drove her the hour home in silence. It was painful and awkward to have her sit next to me for an hour without a word... .but we didn't fight.

Maybe this is how I get out of this relationship, the sex has all but stopped, going out together has all but stopped and now I have little intention of even engaging in conversation. I have my own home (as well as paying half of her rent for the privilege of being able to spend time with her), so I guess I gradually just spend more time at my own home until I just stop seeing her altogether. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to say no to her constant demands. I still run around constantly trying to fulfil her wishes and needs. Perhaps with baby steps I can learn how to say no and gradually just disappear.

Thoughts anyone?

[snowmonkey]

I've 'learnt' that life is better with my BPDgf if I just say much less.

It doesn't make for a very good relationship, but it does seem to make things not as bad. I always thought that couples should try and talk through issues and problems, but even if I implement the SET method for most of our conversations and constantly validate, I inevitably provide some basis upon which she can launch an attack against me.

For instance, a few days ago my partner was b___ing about one of her friends. I simply agreed with what she was saying, validating her and providing support. Fast forward to today, I am attacked for being so negative about her friends, for trying to break up her friendships, for trying to control her and who she talks to. In her words, there is no wonder none of her friends like me, they can all see straight through me and know what kind of guy I am... .whatever that means.

My gf came out of her session with her psychiatrist crying yesterday and I tried to comfort her, ask if there was anything I could do and ask if she wanted to talk about it. She said no and that I should stop trying to pry into her life, so I drove her the hour home in silence. It was painful and awkward to have her sit next to me for an hour without a word... .but we didn't fight.

Maybe this is how I get out of this relationship, the sex has all but stopped, going out together has all but stopped and now I have little intention of even engaging in conversation. I have my own home (as well as paying half of her rent for the privilege of being able to spend time with her), so I guess I gradually just spend more time at my own home until I just stop seeing her altogether. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to say no to her constant demands. I still run around constantly trying to fulfil her wishes and needs. Perhaps with baby steps I can learn how to say no and gradually just disappear.

Thoughts anyone?

[Lucky Jim]

The only thing I haven't figured out is how to say no to her constant demands. I still run around constantly trying to fulfil her wishes and needs.

That's an excellent statement of what it means to be codependent, snow monkey.  The path out, in my view, is to put YOUR needs and desires FIRST.  Start caring for YOURSELF.  Most people care take others in order to avoid taking care of themselves.  You may be in this category (I was).  It leads to burnout and exhaustion, as you are probably aware already.

Only you know when it's time to get off the roller coaster.

LJ

[Lucky Jim]

P.S.  Not much of a r/s if you have to keep your mouth shut all the time.  I suspect you "fear" something about her, which allows her to manipulate you.  Communication is foremost, I suggest, in a healthy r/s.  LJ

[Grey Kitty]

"Before you make things better, you have to stop making them worse."

You'll read that in the lessons here a lot, and you seem to be catching on to it. If you open your mouth, and what comes out makes it worse, just taking a break is a step forward. Learning what you can say that won't invalidate her helps a lot. You are starting to get some of it.

OK, now you've identified something you want to work on next... .so how about it?

The only thing I haven't figured out is how to say no to her constant demands. I still run around constantly trying to fulfil her wishes and needs.

Pick one wish, need, or demand, or perhaps a general category of them that you acquiesce to and feel crappy about it afterwords to start.

Give us a specific description of how it goes, and we can offer you support and ideas on how to handle it differently.

[snowmonkey]

Thanks for the words of wisdom everybody.

@GK,

I'll provide three different issues upon which I acquiesce. If you'd like to help me through any of them, then I will start working on it.

i) My gf feels that she can call me at work at pretty much any time and expect that I will return home to help her. The last example of this was on Tuesday. She had an appointment with her psychiatrist and I had told her a week earlier and then again 2 or 3 days before: "If you need me to take you to your appointment I need to know so that I can organise it properly at work". She said no, that she should be fine. Two hours before the appointment begins I get a message which I don't see (as I am in a meeting) and then a frantic phone call telling me she can't go to see her psychiatrist unless I take her.

Often however, there is not even a reason for which she requires me to come home. She will call and say that she is "not feeling good". This is left deliberately ambiguous and she will refuse to talk about it if I push her. Thus, it might mean anything from she is feeling suicidal to she needs someone to change the channel on the tv.

ii) the second issue on which I acquiesce is around socialising. She and I almost never leave the house together to do anything social whatsoever. We used to make plans that she would invariably cancel at the last minute or worse, she would cause an argument so that she could say that it was my fault she no longer wanted to go. Now, I don't even bother to make those plans. However, she will actively make plans with other people and manage to keep most of those dates. If I say anything about this situation, she says that I am trying to control her and that I try to make her feel guilty about seeing her friends.

iii) the third issue upon which I acquiesce is the living arrangement. I own (or rather the bank owns) a house in which I almost never sleep. It lies empty and more than 50% of my income is spent paying the mortgage on it. My partner however, refuses to live there and instead insists on renting a room or an apartment elsewhere. However, the catch is, if I want to be her partner I have to live with her. The unsaid threat is: Not living together implies separated implies she will start seeing other people. So, I am also stuck paying half of the rent (and bills) on an apartment in which I do sleep in every night, but which contains almost none of my belongings and which I don't really want to be. Worse, it is something that I really cannot afford to do.

If you'd like to talk me through any of these issues, I'd be happy for advice.

[Cat Familiar]

I was going to say the sex must be really good, but then I re-read your original post and uh oh, that's not happening either.

Well, it would be easier to disentangle yourself from this relationship since your belongings are not in her place.

I'm wondering what keeps you in this relationship. I don't really see the upside for you.

[Grey Kitty]

These situations would be helped by the application of good boundaries, especially the first two. You might want to read these workshops:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

Now for your issues more specifically:

If you need me to take you to your appointment I need to know so that I can organise it properly at work"

That is a very reasonable statement, however it is worded as a rule, not as boundary enforcement. It is about the action you expect her to take. Let me re-word it as a boundary:

"I will not leave work to do something for you unless we agree to it a few days in advance."

If she texts you or calls you asking for this, say "I can't leave work today. Sorry. I've go to get back to work. Talk to you later."

If she blows up your phone, you may have to block her, mute her, or something.

If it is an emergency, that means that she should call you from the hospital, or after calling the police, or a suicide hotline.

Be prepared for her to make a huge issue of this the first few times, to say the least!

We used to make plans that she would invariably cancel at the last minute or worse, she would cause an argument so that she could say that it was my fault she no longer wanted to go. Now, I don't even bother to make those plans.

You can't make her go out and be social with you. Instead I'd recommend that you make social plans to go out and spend time with people you want to be with.

You can make plans that exclude her if you wish.

You can also make plans that work if she doesn't go, and tell her that you will be going to do "X" and she is welcome to join you if she wants. And let her bail at the last minute, or even throw a tantrum at the last minute, but go out without her anyways.

However, she will actively make plans with other people and manage to keep most of those dates. If I say anything about this situation, she says that I am trying to control her and that I try to make her feel guilty about seeing her friends.

This is kind ugly on her part, but I'd say that she does have a right to make plans to be out with her friends, including plans that don't include you.

So, I am also stuck paying half of the rent (and bills) on an apartment in which I do sleep in every night, but which contains almost none of my belongings and which I don't really want to be.

You aren't stuck doing this. You chose to do this based on the implied threat that she will start sleeping with other people if you do otherwise. You will be happier about it if you acknowledge the choice you are making.

You do have options. You can state that you are maintaining your own house, and cannot afford to continue paying half her rent and utilities, and will stop paying next month. (She might insist you move out since you aren't paying... .but can she afford it herself?)

You could also sell the house you are paying a mortgage on, and move your belongings in with her. (I'm not recommending this, just stating that it is possible.)

One thing you cannot do is force her to move in with you.

Another thing you cannot do is stop her from sleeping with other people if she chooses to do so.

Would you prefer to live in your house, let her live in the apartment, and spend a some time together, and other time in your own separate residences? It seems to me that you have the option of spending the night at your own place any time you want to, either without her or inviting her to join you.

One last thought... .you might want to tackle these one at a time rather than all at once.

[snowmonkey]

Thanks GK,

I think I will actually tackle the big one first, which is the living arrangements. I am at the point where I feel that if I walk away, I will be able to hold myself together with the knowledge that I will never be happy if I remain with her.

There was one thing that did strike me (and concern me) about what you said:

This is kind ugly on her part, but I'd say that she does have a right to make plans to be out with her friends, including plans that don't include you.

Our relationship revolves purely and simply around her rights. She has the right to give me the silent treatment, she has the right to speak poorly to me, she has the right not to contribute to household chores, she has the right to ask favours of me, she has the right to choose never to spend time with me socially, she has the right to block me on FB, she has the right to flirt with other guys. Jesus, she even has the right to go out tonight and sleep with 5 different men if she chooses.

I am not denying that she has any of these rights, but I absolutely believe that she should not exercise all of her rights. After all, I have all of these rights too and whole many more fundamental and basic ones that are being denied, like the right to try and get a good nights sleep without being woken by her desire to express her latest ruminations or the right to speak to my parents and family, or what about the right to eat the food I choose, when I choose. Yet my rights are denied by her.

I don't know GK, do you think I am being too controlling by thinking it is unfair that she chooses to socialise with others on a weekly basis, but won't put an ounce of effort into socialising with me?

[Grey Kitty]

So by tackle the living arrangements, do you mean move back into your own house and stop paying half her rent?

do you think I am being too controlling by thinking it is unfair that she chooses to socialise with others on a weekly basis, but won't put an ounce of effort into socialising with me?

I'm going to call you on your stuff... .and identify where she is out of line as well.

If you try to stop her from socializing with her friends, that's being controlling on your part.

The thing which I called "kinda ugly" is that she seems to be making an effort to exclude you from this.

If you resent her for seeing her friends, it isn't all that healthy on your part either.

However the fact that she won't socialize with you, and especially how she does it is all kinds of messed up. You have good reason to be upset about that.

You list a bunch of things you call rights. I'm going to divide them up into categories... .

Every one of these is clearly abuse when done to you in a romantic relationship:

She has the right to give me the silent treatment

she has the right to speak poorly to me

she has the right to block me on FB

Jesus, she even has the right to go out tonight and sleep with 5 different men if she chooses.

Depending on how you arranged your relationship, these might could be acceptable, or could be bad behavior, or could be abuse as well:

she has the right not to contribute to household chores

she has the right to flirt with other guys

she has the right to choose never to spend time with me socially

I see nothing wrong with this one... .

she has the right to ask favours of me

... .except that they aren't favors, because you don't feel safe refusing them... .as demands, they swing back towards being abusive.

Denying you any of these rights qualify as abuse in my book as well:

the right to try and get a good nights sleep without being woken by her desire to express her latest ruminations

the right to speak to my parents and family

the right to eat the food I choose, when I choose.

I have to note that you gave up those rights. It was your choice. I highly recommend you choose differently!

[Notwendy]

Snowmonkey,

One if the issues I see is about boundaries. Your work, and where you live, and what you choose to spend your money on are your boundaries- meaning it is up to you to choose to protect them. If she pushes your boundaries- calls you are work, you find yourself paying rent and a mortgage- it is up to you to uphold these boundaries. Leaving work at any notice, paying extra money- these are decisions that impact you financially. But it is your money- to choose to spend or save, and protect or risk. She can expect what she expects, but you can't control what she expects or asks, just your decision and response.

Who she socializes with is her choice. Yours too. If she doesn't wish to socialize with you, you can choose to socialize on your own.

Ironically, when people have poor boundaries, the "controlling" can go both ways. The underlying drive (IMHO) of controlling behavior is fear. From your posts, I think one of those fears is that she will sleep with someone else. So, you move in with her to control that consequence. However, it is her decision to sleep with someone else and this could happen whether you live with her or not. It could happen while you are at work, or any time you are not with her. So, in a sense you are controlling your fear by doing what you can to control her choices. You are also paying a price for that- financially. So the choice you have ( you can't control her choices) is between your living arrangement or dealing with that fear. If you choose to move back to your apartment- she still has choices too- to honor your relationship or not. If she does not, you have the choice to remain in the relationship anyway, or not.

I am not sure what your fear of saying no when she calls you at work is. Perhaps you think if you aren't that guy who helps her- she will find someone else. She can choose to call. The choice to say no is yours. You may not want to have the consequences of that no, but still, this choice is yours to make.

[snowmonkey]

Thanks GK and Notwendy,

Yes, my intentions are to move back into my house either this or next weekend. Ultimately, this is what I must do from a purely financial perspective, so I don't see it makes sense to work on the other things and to tackle this issue further down the track and find this is an insurmountable hurdle. She is welcome to also live there (as she had done for 18 months earlier in our relationship) or she can of course find her own place or stay where she currently is.

As for the socialising aspect (together and separately) I shall try to explain myself clearly; What I want (value) is a 'normal' relationship. That is, sometimes I spend time with my friends and family, sometimes she spends time with her friends and family, sometimes the two of us go out together without other people, sometimes we go out together with other people. What I am asking for is a balanced, healthy relationship. I do not want to control her and I do want her (and I) to have friendships outside of our relationship.

As I write this, I am reflecting on the links you sent regarding boundaries. The above paragraph reflects my values. Most importantly in the value I have expressed above are the concepts of balance and equitable. I don't want just some of these things (eg me being able to see my friends), I want all of these things (including her seeing her friends) in a balance. So, how do I set boundaries to reflect that I want to be in a normal (as I see it) relationship?

Or do you think it is unreasonable of me to have this value?

[Grey Kitty]

Wanting to have social time as a couple, and with both you and with her as individuals is completely reasonable. (I'd call it a desire rather than a value, but that is splitting hairs.)

Boundary enforcement is a very powerful tool, but only works for some jobs. (If you want to cut out a paper snowflake, a scissors is a good tool for the job, but a hammer won't work. Hammers are still useful tools.)

What boundary enforcement doesn't and cannot do is make her actively do or say anything.

Social time with her requires her willing cooperation. If she is unwilling, it isn't going to happen.

We do have some communication tools that can help you ask her in a way that improve your odds of success. You may want to try that later, but it is (relatively) advanced. You've listed a bunch of things that you can accomplish with boundaries. Get started on them first.

I hope your move goes smoothly.

[Notwendy]

What I want (value) is a 'normal' relationship. That is, sometimes I spend time with my friends and family, sometimes she spends time with her friends and family, sometimes the two of us go out together without other people, sometimes we go out together with other people. What I am asking for is a balanced, healthy relationship.


I don't know if this is possible with a disordered person or not. BPD is a disorder that affects relationships. You may need to decide what your choices are, and if or if you wish to make your own definition of balance.

This brings to mind two men I know who have wives with serious mental illnesses ( depression, psychosis). I don't know all the personal aspect of their lives. The reason I even know them is that I am mostly with my kids, doing kid stuff, school stuff with other moms. But in one case where our kids were friends, the father took on that role and so it involved arranging carpooling, etc . I have a strong boundary on talking personal marital issues with men I am in contact with, so I don't know much about the situation, but I did meet the mom and it was pretty obvious she was not mentally well. Yet these men chose to be parents and husbands, but I have no idea how they managed emotionally. I also have a friend who, after her husband had a mental illness, chose to leave. I think he became abusive and she felt that was the best decision for her.

Neither choice is right or wrong for any particular person- and either choice has pros and cons to it. In a dating situation, the choice to leave is easier as it doesn't entangle legal matters and possibly children. However, even if one leaves, I think it is important to take the time to self examine. One thing from your posts Snowmonkey is that you seem to have an attraction for BPD women. If this is the case, and you choose to leave, then perhaps making some personal changes that could lead you to meeting balanced partners would result in you having balanced relationships. Or, if you choose this relationship, it can still benefit you to look at how you can be more balanced in your relationship style.

[waverider]

What you are asking for is fairness. boundaries are not intended to create fairness only to prevent harm to yourself whether it be physical or emotional. The bottomline boundary being removing yourself from harmful sources

What any relationship presents is an arrangement. You can either accept it or reject it. you cannot "make" anyone else compromise in order to make it more equitable. You may be able to modify the environment so that they may be more willing to be "fair'. But you cant force it to happen, neither will any amount of wishful thinking.

The best you can do is honestly asses the options and make a choice that is in your best interest.

One of the least understood aspects of BPD is that pwBPD have impaired motivations. eg responsibility and obligation may not be part of their core values. So lets say you have a 'boundary' about doing chores, you may get them to comply. But why are they motivated to do it.? To stay out of trouble, to prove a point, to impress you... .They are not doing it because they see something needs to be done or they proactively feel the need to do it. The result is when you stop pushing they stop complying. Their motivation is dysfunctional and they are unlikely to change. To be self perpetuating the motivation needs to come from ingrained personal values, not simply mirroring or parroting for affect.

It takes a complete personality change to turn that around, not just a few boundaries and rules. It is based on an underdeveloped, or immature, sense of responsibility. Yes they may know the words to say and sound responsible, they have heard it enough, but they dont feel it instinctively. They can only role play responsibility when it suits.

You can't make a silk purse out of a cows ear, but a skillful craftsman can make a good imitation. It is up to us to identify what it is and not expect it it to be something else by wishful thinking alone.