About to separate from wife

[empathic]

I don't think you "got" the point of Grey's post.

You are potentially about to start a high conflict divorce process.  Most likely it will start amicably and at some point her feelings will change.  At that point... ."game on... ".  Her imagination is the limit.

Even if you are well prepared that process will hit you like a ton of bricks. 

You will have to fight and "take" things from her.  Your posts don't display any of the attitude needed to survive... .let alone "win" a process like what you are considering.

Note:  You can get there... .we can help.  And, there is a chance a more "assertive" you may be able to be more successful in the r/s that you have now.

There is a certain wisdom that you will need to couple with assertiveness.

How does all of this sound to you?

FF

I'm not sure why you think my posts don't display that attitude? I'm well aware of my wifes patterns and I'm sure there will be an "anger phase" following when she gets better from the meds and therapy.

The past years I've become much better at being assertive in the face of my wifes anger. I've decided to go through with the separation which is a huge decision for me.

I can't focus on anything else than making things work now however. I've had to cut down on work time to cater for the kids.

@Grey Kitty: I have a D10 and S12. I will indeed make posts on the legal board when the time comes for that. I'm not having any discussion with her about these things right now as it is simply not possible. I do have a strategy that I'm working on, slowly.

[formflier]

cater 

There is always the possibility I am getting it wrong, but my impression is that you cater to your kids AND to your wife.

Sure you may have made some relative improvement, but it is likely to still be way over on the scale of "catering to" vice "demanding respect from"


Does any of this ring true to you?


What happens when you tell your wife no.?

What happens when you tell your kids no?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

@Grey Kitty: I have a D10 and S12. I will indeed make posts on the legal board when the time comes for that. I'm not having any discussion with her about these things right now as it is simply not possible. I do have a strategy that I'm working on, slowly.

I 100% agree that this isn't the time for you to discuss it with her.

I'd suggest that now IS the time to understand what your legal strategy COULD be.

• The legal world has its own rules. Some things simply aren't possible. You need to know what is impossible so you don't chase after that.



• Some legal options will only work if your wife agrees to them. That's not sounding too good.



• Other legal options are available to you if she doesn't cooperate. You need to know what those fallback options look like before you start.



• If your wife decides to pursue legal options against you, or to try to deny you access to your kids, you need to know how to protect yourself.

Planning and pursuing a strategy when you don't know the rules of the game is a really bad idea.

You can come up with a detailed legal strategy of two or three different paths toward divorce (best case to worst case)... .without actually taking action toward any of them. YET.

That's why I recommend you go over and post on the legal board... .now.

[empathic]

cater 

There is always the possibility I am getting it wrong... .but my impression is that you cater to your kids AND to your wife.

Sure you may have made some relative improvement... .but it is likely to still be way over on the scale of "catering to" vice "demanding respect from"


Does any of this ring true to you?


What happens when you tell your wife no.?

What happens when you tell your kids no?

FF

Indeed, it has been that way, and that's what has worn me out. I cater mostly for the kids now, but also for wife as she is really sick right now... .it is impossible for me to not care for a sick person, BPD or not. I'm preparing for round 2 though, but I think I can hold on to my decision - I can't go on like this or my health will suffer.

[formflier]

it is impossible for me to not care for a sick person, BPD or not.

Do you see how you removed a choice from yourself?

It is possible to not care for someone.   I am not saying that you are wrong to care, I AM SAYING that to successfully stay or to break from the r/s, a major attitude shift (way of looking at the world) is needed.

The good news is that the attitude shift only involves you.  You don't have to talk your wife or kids into anything.   

How does this sound?

FF

[teapay]

Emp,

Can you describe how you are catering to your wife and kids right now?  If you don't do what you are doing now what is going to happen?  Wife gets mad or wife goes "bye bye" to psych ward or kills self?  Kids whine and act out or kids get abused, neglected, lie in filth and are starved?

If your attitude has changed to separation being okay with you that is great.  It should be somewhat empowering to you even during "staying" times to make additional changes you might have hesitated doing before.

Also, bear in mind your wife's psych difficulties, functionality, irresponsibility and behavior can be leverage for you in a separation.

[ArleighBurke]

I *thought* I had emotionally untangled from my BPDw, that i was allowing her to be herself. But... .

Yesterday I dropped her at the shops with our 2 girls. I came to join her later around the agreed time. When I tried to meet up I txted/phoned her but she'd left her phone at home - so I had no idea where she was.  I stood in the shops thinking surely she'd call me from a pay phone or strangers phone - even if she also had no purse - so I just needed to wait. But I felt like *I* had to fix it. *I* felt bad and in the wrong for HER mistake. Perhaps I should have her paged... .Perhaps I should search the shops i think she'll be at... .Should I wait where I dropped her off. Gr... .All I really needed to do was forget her - shop for myself and wait for HER to contact ME (which she did eventually).

[empathic]

@Grey Kitty: I have a D10 and S12. I will indeed make posts on the legal board when the time comes for that. I'm not having any discussion with her about these things right now as it is simply not possible. I do have a strategy that I'm working on, slowly.

I 100% agree that this isn't the time for you to discuss it with her.

I'd suggest that now IS the time to understand what your legal strategy COULD be.

• The legal world has its own rules. Some things simply aren't possible. You need to know what is impossible so you don't chase after that.



• Some legal options will only work if your wife agrees to them. That's not sounding too good.



• Other legal options are available to you if she doesn't cooperate. You need to know what those fallback options look like before you start.



• If your wife decides to pursue legal options against you, or to try to deny you access to your kids, you need to know how to protect yourself.

Planning and pursuing a strategy when you don't know the rules of the game is a really bad idea.

You can come up with a detailed legal strategy of two or three different paths toward divorce (best case to worst case)... .without actually taking action toward any of them. YET.

That's why I recommend you go over and post on the legal board... .now.

Thanks, will definitely try to do this. I've had it in the back of my head for a while, even contacted a lawyer last summer (but decided not to go through with it).

It's complicated because wife is very wealthy, but most of it is "protected" with her family. Me taking more than what they consider reasonable will be considered an attack against them also. Hard to explain. Its one of the things that have complicated the marriage through the years.

Wife made a surprise move a few days ago and went to stay with our daughter in our rental property. This gives me some breathing room, but I think it might be a strategy from her to win me back, not sure.

[empathic]

it is impossible for me to not care for a sick person, BPD or not.

Do you see how you removed a choice from yourself?

It is possible to not care for someone.   I am not saying that you are wrong to care... .I AM SAYING that to successfully stay or to break from the r/s, a major attitude shift (way of looking at the world) is needed.

The good news is that the attitude shift only involves you.  You don't have to talk your wife or kids into anything.   

How does this sound?

FF

Yes, I think I know what you mean. Now when the acute phase seems to fade out (wife is feeling better) it's a choice I will have to consider, if I am to ever be able to break away from the marriage.

[formflier]

  Now when the acute phase seems to fade out (wife is feeling better) it's a choice I will have to consider, if I am to ever be able to break away from the marriage.

Why not consider it now?

Why not make a choice now?

Much of the advice on these boards is to direct people to become more emotionally healthy themselves.

I see a Psychologist weekly to work on me, to work on being a better husband, a better father.  The issues in my r/s with my wife are not all "her fault" nor are they all "my fault". 

If I can clean up my side of the street some, or a lot, it is bound to help the r/s. 

I think it would be much healthier for you to get to a place where "I have made a choice to remain in the r/s and give it my best effort" and drop all the "butts", "becauses" and things that would seem to take away choice from you or "force" you to make a choice.

Stop living by default and live by choice.

Much less chance of resentment creeping in to your mind when living by choices.  Then you can only blame yourself.

FF

[byfaith]

I think it would be much healthier for you to get to a place where "I have made a choice to remain in the r/s and give it my best effort" and drop all the "butts", "becauses" and things that would seem to take away choice from you or "force" you to make a choice.

Stop living by default and live by choice.

Much less chance of resentment creeping in to your mind when living by choices.  Then you can only blame yourself.

FF

This is the place i need to get to in my relationship. I am struggling immensely. Our MC ( who we have not seen together as a couple yet) my three visits to my wife's one. He told me if you choose not to divorce her you may have to view this as a ministry and not a "marriage". This comes from a MC that is not a christian counselor but a counselor who is a christian. ( his statement)

I have to make choices for myself. I know this task will not be easy because ALL of my life I have been the one who tries to make things easier for the other person. I don't know what made me this way.

[Lucky Jim]

ALL of my life I have been the one who tries to make things easier for the other person.

You're not alone, byfaith.  Most if not all of us Nons have probably done this.  It's a big reason why we got into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  Codependency comes with the territory, in my view, if you're in a r/s with a pwBPD.  Yet awareness is everything and change is definitely possible.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

It's complicated because wife is very wealthy, but most of it is "protected" with her family. Me taking more than what they consider reasonable will be considered an attack against them also. Hard to explain. Its one of the things that have complicated the marriage through the years.

Which sounds to me like a VERY good reason to understand your legal options, sooner rather than later. Her family at least has the resources to hire good lawyers if not having a history and good reason to be involved with them.

For a lot of parents, losing custody of or access to their child is a horrible thing, and your wife could be afraid of it... .and could be putting you at risk of it!

[formflier]

to view this as a ministry and not a "marriage". This comes from a MC that is not a christian counselor but a counselor who is a christian. ( his statement)

Good way to look at things.

If you have spent much time with ministers, they are diligent about self care.  There are days they are available and days they are not.  Ministers that keep giving and giving without rest eventually get burned out and are actually LESS of a help to the people that they minister to.

Something to think about.

'

FF

[empathic]

Major recycling attempt this evening. Crossing off the G in FOG. Wife had prepared a table in the garden with flowers, candle and champagne. She started reading from a paper, saying how much she's come to understand these past weeks, and how she's done me wrong in the past. She now thinks we can make it work.

I think... .

I feel... .

I want... .

I need... .

I had to stop her there and say that this is also about what I need. That I have made my mind up. She got sad of course, and it doesn't feel good for me either. Whoever suggested this to her made a bad call.

It was especially surprising as she's barely been functioning the past days.

[byfaith]

Empathic this is from your post 4/1

I convinced her to take them yesterday, but she still woke up at midnight with anxiety then hardly got any sleep at all. So she's still a wreck.

She's going to her mother this weekend. She needs someone around (or a call away) 24/7 right now basically, not sure if it's a subconscious defense mechanism against abandonment, but she's genuinely ill I would say. So it's really hard for me to not constantly be in caretaker mode.

this sounds like my wife almost exactly... .the reason I went back and referenced this post is that my wife has done something similar in trying to make things "seem" better

she sent me this text Sunday night while I was sitting in church...

HER: Well, we have the choice to make this better or keep it the way it is and make it worse between now and the time we see MC. I'm sorry that upset you by me mentioning you not talking to me and I'm going to keep talking nice to you like I have and not ask you any questions and not tell you how I feel cause it can wait.  If you can do the same we should get through this week just fine

BUT she now is putting everything else priority and has cancelled the MC session.

Do you think they subconsciously create distractions so they don't have to face the truth or do you think they do it on purpose?

You did good here in my opinion I had to stop her there and say that this is also about what I need

[Grey Kitty]

Major recycling attempt this evening. [... .] She now thinks we can make it work.

That she cares enough to try that hard does mean something. Perhaps not enough, but something.

I had to stop her there and say that this is also about what I need. That I have made my mind up.

You sound a bit more conflicted than that to me--at least I'm not quite sure what you have decided, given your various posts here... .to clarify... .

Are you SURE you want to end your marriage? Or are you still thinking about that?

Are you SURE you want to move out and not live with her? (Or stay away? I forgot if you actually moved out or not?)

Are you willing to work on your marriage with her while living separately for a period of time?

I am pretty sure that you aren't wanting to jump back into a marriage just like you had before, and I understand that all too well!

[formflier]

 

I also don't "see" or "feel" the resolution to end things.

Perhaps you express it differently than others. 

I also think it is encouraging your wife is making an attempt.

These are big decisions.  Don't rush, but on the other hand, if you have been sure for a while, don't delay.

FF

[empathic]

Emp,

Can you describe how you are catering to your wife and kids right now?  If you don't do what you are doing now what is going to happen?  Wife gets mad or wife goes "bye bye" to psych ward or kills self?  Kids whine and act out or kids get abused, neglected, lie in filth and are starved?

If your attitude has changed to separation being okay with you that is great.  It should be somewhat empowering to you even during "staying" times to make additional changes you might have hesitated doing before.

Also, bear in mind your wife's psych difficulties, functionality, irresponsibility and behavior can be leverage for you in a separation.

Let's say I get an apartment and move into it. Wife would most probably get worse. Not much would be done around the house. She'd struggle to make dinners (I've cooked about 60% of the time, even more recently). Kids are big enough now to travel around by bike and would be OK in the short term at least.

I've been wrong before predicting the future when my wife is involved though.

You're absolutely right about your two last points.

[empathic]

Do you think they subconsciously create distractions so they don't have to face the truth or do you think they do it on purpose?

In my case I think it's mostly subconsciously... .kind of a learned response. When in MC it was close to impossible to talk constructively about anything because she broke down crying almost every time. The same pattern has been at home, if I ever said anything about myself... .that I have a cold or anything she'd immediately make it about her and her ailments.

I think she doesn't fully understand that I have a mind of my own, my own needs and wants, and can make decisions that go against her. Kind of looks odd writing it down like this, that it can be that way.

You did good here in my opinion I had to stop her there and say that this is also about what I need

Thanks!

[teapay]

Emp,

My W is similar to yours.  I understand the predictament of what to do with a tanking W where kids are involved.  What is catering and what is caution?  We've had suicide attempts, hospitalizations, police and self harm in the mix.  I've had to come home from work several times due to emergencies at home. My kids are 11, 9, 6, 3 and 3, so they still need care.   I do push the envelop with her, though.  While she has tried to use these things as tools of manipulation, she's learned somewhat that in the long run the negativity consequences aren't worth it.  She hates consequences, so I've learned to let her have them.  I fear these times less now, because they happens less and when it does happen it gives  me alittle more documented leverage.  If I need to stay home from work and hire childcare I better get something for it.  If we split, I know I'll have to seek the Lion's share of custody.  In reality, it is never easy call or straightforward.

One of my goals for my W is to get her working full time and more self sufficient.  If we split, that would make things much easier on all.  She has done better in her life when she has had less responsibility, less stress, more freedom and control of her life and lots and lots of not intimate friends.  While she may crave the intimacy and security of marriage and family life like many BPD do she's not built for it.