So... A crazy few weeks...

[obliv326]

Soo... .

Man.

First, I wanted to let you know that most of this tread is on my other thread. I just wanted to get some answers on this bc it seems like a new situation. (See below)

I had posted a few weeks ago about what had been happening with a girl I had fallen for... .The thread was called "I've felt like I was going crazy" (I tried to post the link but it was giving me trouble) Briefly, we had broken up bc we are in a LDR, and she came to town (she's from the area) and didn't make plans to see me, and I had thought she was not going to. I gave her an ultimatum and she didn't respond, so that was it. I actually expected her to eventually get back to me... .And that's when I sort of discovered the fact that she was probably. PwBPD. I read that ultimatums were pretty much the worst thing to do, so armed with some new info, I got ahold of her and tried to patch things up with the goal of gently guiding her toward some possible help. Well, she had, in the meantime, gotten together with a guy and did some very specific things that I had told her would bother me. We had a bit of a confrontation, and she ended things by saying it "wasn't healthy", was "for the best", and she cared for me and didn't want to hurt me.

Sigh

Okay

I had heard from her a week ago, and things were... .Okay? I told her I was doing fine. I was cool. I didn't show any negative emotion. I thought it was fine. I didn't hear from her for a few days.

She texted me again a few days later. I was traveling and let it sit, then got back with her on Monday.

Things were a lot different. Better? There was some humor and lightness. There was talk of her coming back down here for a visit.

Then it got weird. She pulled back, and said that whatever was going on with me, she can't make our argument "unhappen", and that she's not over it. She said that she had asked for some space to deal with it, and she still needs space.

Given that I haven't initiated anything with her since the argument happened (that was 3/29) I'm pretty sure I've given her space.

The thing that strikes me about that comment is that... .There was no mention of "space" that night. She said that she didn't think we should restart our relationship because it was "for the best", she "didn't want to be someone that hurts me", etc. she said she didn't want to be with anyone, and asked me to "please go away", which I did... .I'm thinking that's an odd way to spin things. I mean, to me, it wasn't a request for space (that's actually what I would have asked for if she hadn't immediately started talking about ending things... .Or keeping them ended, I guess. But it certainly seems better than the alternative.

That was last Monday. Last week we talked everyday. She stayed home from work bc she was sick. Things seemed to be going well. Then she mentioned that she an her roommates were low on food. My "white knight" kicked in, and I offered to send her some groceries.

She seemed... .Okay... .But as the day went on, she grew less open to the idea. She said she didn't want to be a charity case. I tried explaining to her that I didn't see her that way, but it didn't seem to help.

Then I remembered something I had seen in a video made by a girl with BPD. She was talking about how she didn't like to say thanks or to apologize bc she felt that it made her "beholden" to the other person. And it kind of clicked for me.

I told her that I was sorry for trying to hold over her head the fact that I had done her favors. I was wrong and I was sorry. I wouldn't do it again.

She had been silent for a couple hours, but then immediately responded with "I understand"


I told her theb that I felt like I understood how she processed things. I had not really gotten it until we had been apart for awhile, but I had studied and done lots of reading, and I saw now how I made her uncomfortable. For now on, I was going to take things less personally. I wouldn't force her into emotional situations. I would always try and see her side before I responded.

I said that I knew it would take time, but I didn't want to be someone who made her uncomfortable. Woukd she let me show her, starting now?

An immediate yes.

I asked if I could buy her groceries. Now she was fine with it, and things were smooth the rest of the night.

She texted me today, and we were having a nice little talk. Somehow, I made a sort of sexual joke, and her response wasn't so receptive. I stayed calm and just asked a couple questions, and she replied that she didn't want me to think that she had "some evil plan... ." I'm assuming she's responding to the way I responded about what happened after we broke up.

I simply said that I didn't ever think that. That I always thought we had good chemistry in that area and it was part of who we were. I didn't want her to ever think she couldn't talk to me about something, that included. She didn't respond to that.

So I apologized once more. I told her that, kind of like I was saying last night, I didn't always understand her thought process and would take things personally that she didn't intend as such. It was a mistake and that I'd made a lot of them but I felt like I had a better understanding of who she was now.

She finally responded to that by saying "I understand. Sorry, bed time"

I wrote back and said that I understood, and that I needed to go to bed too (I started a new job today, also) That she didn't need to apologize, and everything was fine. And to sleep tight.

Now, I'm guessing she didn't want to get into the sexual talk bc she prob doesn't trust me with it, and bc it has caused some pretty unpleasant clashes in the past. But I feel like what I did, trying to get across the point that I didn't see her point of view and I'm going to do my best to do that from now on, is a good thing? I don't want to force an "emotional" point but I figure if it's all me and I don't make her engage, that apologies are fair game?

I'm guessing there might be some "unpacking" of some issues soon... .Kind of like the past couple days. Other than stay calm, validate her POV, listen and try to keep things light, is there anything else that I should do? I was thinking about telling her to let me know if a topic bothered her. I'm really just trying to help us fix things, and it's hard for me to know if that's the case but I don't want her having any uncomfortable exchanges with me. So feel free to let me know and I'll just drop it. Or does that put too much of the onus on her to act and make her uncomfortable anyway? I don't know.

I also bought her a box fan off of Amazon bc she didn't have one and it had gotten really hot where se lived. She wasn't in the best mood when I did it, but she did say thanks. I've noticed that she seems to have trouble saying that sometimes. We talked for a few more minutes. Then I posted something about how I understand that it's not easy to say thanks, but I know she appreciates it when I help her. She doesn't have to make a big deal. I know.

What I've noticed about her lately is that she's being a bit more personally forthcoming, but still seems to regard me with suspicion ( she said the other day that I was "being too nice to her >>... .Those last two, for those unfamiliar, are sort of representing a sidling gkance, as if she's not sure of something)

Another thing I've noticed... .She almost never responds to jokes I make unless she happens to be joking Herself. It's almost as if she doesn't want to let any of my personality in? I also wanted to get her opinion on a video I made and she didn't agree to, which I've learned is the same as saying no... .I mean, I could send it, but she wouldn't watch it.

But I've used a lot if the things I've found out here, and she seems to at least want me around. I am prepping for that first time she pushes a boundary, but I'm prepared to say that I can't accept that behavior. I really have no intention of leaving her but at the same time she needs to respect my beliefs and boundaries. And that I'm going to go for the time being bc I don't want to make anything worse, but I want her to understand that while I love her very much, I have to love me first. Otherwise I'm no good to her or anyone else. And that what has happened is something that really bothers me.

At the same time, I'm pretty certain she knows that I'm not going to allow a platonic relationship. It does seem like she's starting to trust me, and I think I'm handling it well. I try to validate what she says, and to address what I think she is feeling. It seems like what I'm having to do is to rebuild my trust in her, and it seems like that may be happening... .For example, a few months back, she had an episode where she broke down, and got ahold of me just before she went to bed. I insisted to know what was wrong. She said she "had a moment", and that sometimes it happens, and she just needed to go to sleep. I didn't believe her (had a moment? Really?) and wanted her to tell me what was wrong so I could fix it. This just made her angry, and she ended up disappearing and having a week long episode of pulling away. I interpreted this as her hiding something, and that it was probably that she was cheating (there were some things that would point in that direction)

Today, after I had sent her the note last night about how I knew she appreciated me, she wrote this morning that she "just needed to sleep." I wrote back that I understood, but what I said wasn't bc of anything that happened last night. I just wanted her to know. She replied "okay, but I just had a rough night and needed to sleep" I asked if she was okay and if something was wrong. She said she was just really tired and stressed (which certainly seemed to be the case) and couldn't find a cd that helped her sleep, and that nearly caused a meltdown in her already stressed state. I wrote back that I understood. That lack of sleep was really stressful, and that I needed retain things to help me sleep too. I hoped she felt better and I was glad she was able to find it. She said that sleep was the only thing that worked in those moments, which seemed like a reference to the earlier situation where she "had a moment". I told her that I understood. I hadn't always, but I did now. We exchanged a few pleasantries afterward, but I felt like my goal there was to re-do that situation and this time do it right. A few other things have happened as well. I haven't lost my cool or gotten emotional. I'm letting her initiate as much as possible and trying to give her space when I can. Given that we were broken up a couple weeks ago, it seems like we're at least moving in the right direction.

Does this entire post sound like a good course of action?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

There is a strong undertone (and sometimes more than an undertone) of you doing things for her, and trying to fix things. I strongly recommend that you try to set those impulses aside.

Your ex seems very sensitive to being controlled through kindness. ("You're being too nice." I'm guessing she is very sensitive to the idea that you are purchasing some form of obligation or intimacy from her with gifts and kindness. Which honestly it sounds like you are.

I would stop telling her what she feels. ("I know you feel thankful."

I would listen when she tells you about her feelings without trying to "fix." I would not assume if she steps away that she is cheating. She might just be having a hard time dealing with your impulse to get in her business.

Can you let her be her and just listen and express interest because you are genuinely interested, not as a means to an end?

My ex was super sensitive to the idea that I had a hidden agenda or was doing things for him or being nice to him or listening to him just in order to get something. Listening to your ex's comments, they sound very similar. The idea of "giving to get" seems really worth thinking about. This woman does not want to be manipulated or changed by you.

[obliv326]

Well, first, I do appreciate your response. I did pick up a bit of judgement, though.

I know you probably didn't read my other thread, but I'm not purchasing anything. That's part of what I spent a lot of this post trying to get across.

And I'm not trying to "control" anyone. If anything, I'm letting her do all the deciding. I just respond. And I help her bc she isn't in a good position financially. So while it is tempting to look at a situation, see someone helping someone with groceries or money, and just stop processing anything beyond "giving to get", I am doing my best to make sure she knows that this is not the case. Again, convincing her of that was a big part of what I said in the post.

But I do thank you for your reply. Any and all insight is important

[livednlearned]

Hi obliv326,

People with BPD tend to be super sensitive, like patientandclear mentioned about her ex.

Even if your actions are not intended to be controlling, she may experience it that way. Someone at some point may have broken her trust in deeply painful ways, maybe even by being nice at first. It's not uncommon for people who have been abused to have engulfment issues and it's hard to overstate how even the mildest types of behaviors can feel controlling (similar to what you were reading about saying thanks and apologizing).

So your course of action sounds reasonable. And I agree with p&c that telling her that you know how she feels is kinda brushing up against those engulfment issues, which she sounds like she has.

Validating questions are much more effective.

[obliv326]

Okay, fair enough. I can see how making a statement like that might be triggering for some folks with BPD. However, in fairness, this is something she had said to me before, so it was kind of validating her feelings as well and not putting her on the spot in an emotional sense. She has a really really hard time dealing with any type of emotional issue, as do many pwBPD. Her issues seems extra strong, so my goal was really to let her know that I had heard what she had said before and that she didn't have to feel obliged to express that, since I was getting that it seemed to be a problem for her.

Since then, things seem to be improving. It's hard to believe, but it hasn't even been three weeks since we started talking again. It's been just over a month since the "breakup".  However, while she started out a bit reluctant to step back in, by the end of that week she was confiding in me once again. She got sick and gave me a call that morning. We talked a lot about how she was feeling, and it seemed to be more free and open. We talked for a long time Friday night, then barely at all Saturday, and not at all Sunday. I think I was being tested, since her disappearing for long periods of time used to set me off.

Instead, I didn't react at all. I just waited for her to get ahold of me, and we talked like it was no big deal. I'm trying to remain calm and in control of my emotions. Last Wednesday, w had the best talking months... .Light and fun and jokey, which is a bit of a change.

She used to love hearing from me because I would make funny observations and tell her jokes. until recently, when I would do so, I would barely get a response. But the last week or so she seems to have lightened up a little. I think at some point, because I was so confused by what she was doing, I was always pissed and annoyed, and I just became someone who complained about everything. So she saw me as that.

Lately, though, I've been trying to prove to her that I'm not that guy, and it seems to be working.

Also, she comes to me when she's stressed, like she had before. I think I had been pretty good in that area, so it was something I was comfortable doing. Also, it seems to have been suggested that if you are someone that they talk to about their problems or insecurities, it's bc they trust you. You might also get treated not so nicely sometimes bc they fear that, by telling you about these things, they've already "ruined" themselves for you. If they still act like they have to "show off" for you, then they haven't let you in yet.

Case in point... .The guy she hooked up with on my birthday after the ultimatum is still talking to her, and it seems like he's a sexual outlet for her. I think something might be going on there because after she talked to me on Sunday, she had a talk with someone, presumably him, and talked about it on social media... .Then I didn't hear from her at all on Monday. When that happens, she usually gets ahold of me first thing the next morning. Again, I don't act like it bothers me at all, and I do think that maybe I'm being split back white again... .Or at least a lighter shade of gray. I kind of wonder if she doesn't have some pretty intense guilt around acting out with this guy... .For one thing, he's only in her life because I had "dumped" her via ultimatum. Second, unlike myself, there was no effort to get to know her. He was a predatory presence immediately. I think she must have some second thoughts about his motives, even if she still lets him occasionally partake in that role. I was doing the same until I made the mistake of becoming too demanding and she started to see me in a negative light.

But I think I'm changing that. That's not to say that it isn't hard as hell to know this guy gets to use her in that way, I also am pretty sure he doesn't know I'm in the picture at all. Further, there's no real reason to believe that he'll be interested in sticking around for anything else. FYI, he also lives down here and I do fear that this might make the devaluation process take a bit longer.

Anyway, I've been trying to prove that I'm worthy of her trust. I think it's working. Hopefully, soon, she kicks this idiot to the curb and decided I'm back. I'm not exactly sue how I'll know bc I can't imagine her ever saying that, but we'll see. Last Sunday was pretty low. I'm pretty sure things are a lot better now. But I plan on just being cool, validating what she says (I try to do this with every statement, and I seem to have had some good luck with it) and trying to prove that I'm not going to do what I did before.

I will, however, take your advice and that of p&c... .I won't try and tell her what she's feeling, even though that was really an isolated case that was trying to keep her from having to do something else I thought would be hard for her. I was still learning (just like I am now) but at the very least, validating tends to at least not get a negative response. So I'll keep working on it.

[obliv326]

I have to admit when I think about her talking with this other guy, and him getting to be intimate with her it bothers me... .Really bothers me. I know he's not a good match, and even more that my being around is a much bigger threat to him than he is to me... .I've been here for awhile and I'm committed and trusted... .But still, I want him gone.

[patientandclear]

What I am reading here is you stuffing your own feelings in order to earn her affection and love, and to try to get her to choose you. I get it. There are approaches that "work" for pwBPD in that you are accommodating their coping strategies, which is obvious nice for them. That is, I'm afraid, different from a genuine relationship. If YOU liked an open r/ship and that she is having an intimate r/ship with another man, then going along as you are would be another matter. But you don't like it; and are acting like you don't mind, in order to get her to trust you.

Is the picture you are presenting to her, that you're cool with this arrangement, real? If not, is it fair to either of you to present that picture?

I made the mistake for a long time of reading my ex's obvious enjoyment in talking to me, sharing with me, etc. as us building something real. Actually, he was perfectly happy to take all that good stuff I was giving, on terms that allowed him to come and go as he pleased and never acknowledge the significance of what the two of us were to one another. Yes it pleased him. If I were as pleased with another human as he was pleased with me, I would cherish that person and never ever let them go. That's not how it went for my ex. Ultimately, I came to feel it was misleading him and me to convey that I was OK with his terms. I was trying to earn his trust, but it doesn't work to earn someone's trust by accepting things that are actually unacceptable to you. Sooner or later that "trust" will rupture when it turns out you weren't putting your own needs into the equation and want/need to start doing so.

[Grey Kitty]

I see you doing a much better job of dealing with her mental illness, and learning some tools.

I see her finding you to be a little bit safer to be around than when she broke up with you.

What I'm not sure I'm seeing is the part where this is a satisfying and valuable relationship for YOU. Her side of the relationship has all kinds of limits on you. You don't seem comfortable with them, but are tolerating them.

Have you enjoyed your time and contact with her over the last week? How would you feel about it if you knew it was going to be very similar to this for the next six months?

[obliv326]

Thanks for the replies everyone... .So there's been a bit more news. Just really briefly... .She was openly suggesting in a social media forum that she was having a sexual relationship with a man or men. I was finding this out bc a friend of mine is an acquaintance of hers and had caught her in a lie a few months back, and had started informing me of what she was doing. And this goes a little toward answering something PnC had asked... .She didn't know that I knew about what was happening with the other guy. I was being informed bc my friend thought it was bs that she was telling me one thing and doing something else. My feeling on the matter was that it was probably the guy she met down here, and most likely it would go away soon and I would still be there.

A couple things kind of changed recently. First, since she was apparently doing things with other guys, I started looking into my opportunities as well. I actually do fairly well with dating, and I got quite a few. I met someone, and it looked like it had some possibilities. So a couple weeks ago I told her. She was clearly not happy but didn't get overtly upset.

That night, she made some comments on her social media page and my friend told me. So I told her that she had said something. My friend has a position of authority in a certain section of the community that she wants to be active, so she asked to speak to her. I gave her my friends email address and thy started talking.

Also, she did write me the day after I had told her about the new woman and told me that she had not been seeing anyone, just flirting online, and that none of those guys were what I was to her. I thanked her, and told her no one was what she was either.

But she and my friend started writing. At first it was fairly cordial, and she acknowledged that she had not treated me well. Things seemed to have been at least somewhat alleviated.

Then last Tuesday, my friend basically lambasted her for what she did when she came down for my birthday (refresher - she came down, hadn't made plans to see me and didn't tell me how long she was staying. I assumed she had planned to avoid me and gave her an ultimatum which she ignored, then she got together with another guy and immediately gave him more trust than she gave me, and has acted like it meant something ever since instead of just being a stupid rebound thing that happens bc she lowered her standards.) My friend had told her that what she did was a huge sore spot with her, and that while she wanted to smooth things over and that she respected her reaching out and trying to clear things up, that her actions down here had made my friend extremely angry, and it had affected her reputation among other people as well. At first, the PwBPD didn't respond. Then, in a really weird night, she sort of undid all the sort of conciliatory measures she had made, and basically took a lot of effort to lash out at her and, apparently, me.  She had actually sent me a text saying she hoped I had a good day. I had posted some pictures of the new girl on one of my social media sites, and that night she blocked me and the new girl, and put up lots of kind of aggressive posts... .Liking pictures of the guy she met don here. Friending a creepy guy she knew I didn't like, etc. Posting some fairly explicit pictures. it seemed like a lot had gotten to her.

The next morning I wrote and wanted to make sure she was okay. She said she had taken the previous day off work, and was considering whether to move to a different state bc my friend and that part of the community had problems with her. I should also note that she had made a bad impression and was on their radar before she and I became an item. She said she'd write me later that day.

When she did, she basically blamed me for the fact that my friend and the community didn't like her. She acknowledged that it wasn't my fault, but that my connection to her was what had caused the problem and was why she was now in the situation. Of course, like I said, they had problems with her before that... .And they only got angry bc they kept catching her in lies. If she had been honest with me there would have been no problems with them at all... .But of course I didn't say that.

She said that, bc of that, she needed "space"... .Which I'd be giving her for a few weeks. I only talked when she initiated and tried to be positive and validating. But now she said she wanted to cut off contact completely. She agreed that it wasn't fair, and that she cared about me and it would be hard, but it's what she needed to do. And that was the end of that.

The next day, my friend tried to smooth things over, and wrote an email where she said that she had thought they were making progress toward burying the hatchet, but that her actions that week had made everyone very skeptical. She said she would like to keep discussing things and would assume she had made those decisions to act emotionally and impulsively. And she said that she really shouldn't blame me. I had don nothing at all and that we would both be losing someone important to us and it wasn't fair to either of us to blame me for what my friend had done. She offered to speak to her one on one and let it stay between them.

However, if she didn't respond and kept acting in that manner, that my friend would have to presume that she was actually not just immature but kind of dangerous, in that she wanted to lie with impunity and take no responsibility for her actions. And if that was the case, she would be obliged to warn the members of the segment of the community where they were both trying to interact in whatever city she moved.

I got a text from the girl with BPD later that day saying that my friend had threatened to follow her wherever she went if she didn't get back with me. This was just not the case, and I can't see anywhere in the correspondence where that was even implied. But she asked me to make it stop. So I talked to my friend and said that she should just leave her alone. She agreed to for my sake.

I told her, and she said she was grateful and it meant a lot to her. I asked if we were going to talk again, and she said maybe. She had been thinking about a lot of things and needed time to think just on her own. I asked if she was getting space from everyone or just me, and she said everyone. She said my affection, which, again, I hadn't really shown or stated for awhile, was just one part of things that wer smothering her. All I had done was just try to help her when she needed things so she would be able to stay afloat. I even paid for a plane ticket for her to come down and visit, and said she didn't need to plan to see me since she said she needed space. I did tell her that since I paid, though, I wasn't okay with her seeing that guy. If he wanted to see her he could foot that bill.

She did come down, didn't tell me, and I have no evidence that she saw that guy but she did see the friend who introduced them. Granted, at the time she still thought I was with the other girl, but she also knew befor that and hadn't said anything. You'd think, after that caused the biggest problem we had, that she'd at least say something, but no... .

Anyway, back to the conversation after I got my friend off of her... .

She said that maybe we would talk again. She said she wanted to say that yes, eventually, we would but she wanted to just see how she felt after the reflection. I told her that I cared about her and would miss her, and she thanked me but asked me to stop. Oh, also, I had broken up with the other girl in the meantime. She also had a lot of underlying issues that I just couldn't handle after what I'd been through with this girl. Sk I told her that was over.

Again, sh thanked me, said that she knew how I felt but that words didn't mean a whole lot to her. It's funny, since I don't think anyone she's ever known has done more to show her she was important through actions than myself. But whatever. I told her to be good and that I thought we'd talk again soon. She said "when I'm ready to", and I said of course.

That was Friday. I already miss her so much I can't stand it. I have several other girls I'm talking to, and I'm working and exercising, but if anything she's on my mind more than less. I just don't understand how she could even be considering not speaking to me again. I didn't do anything to deserve that. If anything, it's like everyone else gets what I want from her, and all I get is just the stress and blame and bad attitude. I keep hoping that her time away will make all that clear. At least she's never denied that she has feelings and cares for me.

I'm at work today and it's all I can do to not burst into tears. I want to write her and tell her how unfair it all is, and how if someone is angry at her that it's bc of what SHE did herself. The fact that she wouldn't even qcknowledge or speak about if must mean that my friend hit a nerve. I only hope it's bc she does feel incredibly guilty about what she did. The fact that this guy gets to be in her life at all, even though she has told me she doesn't want a relationship and specifically another long distance one, makes me feel a little better. And she told me that all she was doing was flirting, and with a "few people", but she's lied before. I kind of believe her that she was only flirting, but I think that's bc nothing else was possible. And again... .No clue if she saw the guy when she was down here or not.

She did mention the new girl a lot. She said she didn't want to know about us and what we wer doing and I think the stuff she saw that I posted probably affected her a lot. I'm certain she would have no problem doing something with another guy out of "revenge", even though I would never have done anything with the new girl, even meeting her, if she hadn't been bragging about what she was doing. But of course none of that matters.

I keep thinking she'll write any minute. The idea of being near tears and missing her for 6 months... .Even one month... .Hurts so much. I just want her back and that's pretty much all that will fix me. I'm hoping she misses me too and will come to her senses soon. But it feels like a special kind of hell right now. And I would do anything to get out of it