Kind of in limbo...need help with a specific direction

[byfaith]

my wife has been out of state since April 17 helping her mother ( health issues) I have been here at home taking care of my stepson who suffers with paranoid schizophrenia.

A few weeks ago I posted this

Here are signs you have not set personal boundaries"

• Saying no when you mean yes or yes when you mean no  • Feeling guilty when you do say no  • Not speaking up when you have something to say  • not calling out someone who mistreats you 

• adopting another persons beliefs or ideas so you are accepted  • acting against your integrity or values in order to please  • Allowing yourself to be interrupted or distracted to accommodate another person's immediate wants or needs  • Giving too much to be perceived as useful • becoming overly involved in someone's problems or difficulties

• allowing people to say things to you or in front of you that make you uncomfortable  • not defining and communicating your emotional needs in your closest relationships

I fail to some degree in most of these, some more than others probably the ones in bold I have the biggest issues with.

Gray Kitty gave this advice  that list is very long, and kinda exhaustive. You aren't going to fix it in an hour or a day.

Pick one thing from the list. One that seems important to you or most important. And let us help you work on fixing it in yourself.

Since I have been "by myself" for 9 days now and counting and I have had a lot of time to think rationally I am sure these are the ones I want to work on first

• not defining and communicating your emotional needs in your closest relationships  I think these two go hand in hand with one another • Not speaking up when you have something to say

What I need help with is communicating my emotional needs the correct way and then handling the fallout when I get shut down. I am tired of stuffing my feelings. It has affected every aspect of my life.

[Grey Kitty]

  As this was my idea, I'll chime in now that I found the topic

• not defining and communicating your emotional needs in your closest relationships  I think these two go hand in hand with one another • Not speaking up when you have something to say

What I need help with is communicating my emotional needs the correct way and then handling the fallout when I get shut down. I am tired of stuffing my feelings. It has affected every aspect of my life.

Sounds like a great place to start. Can you be more specific?

Who are you failing to communicate your needs with? Your wife? Anybody else?

What needs do you have which have been unmet?

What is the closest thing you have done to directly communicating about this, and what happened?

[formflier]

What needs do you have which have been unmet?

This is the focus.  All other course of action should flow from this. 

FF

[byfaith]

I believe I am thinking clearly here... .

I have many unmet needs, I am also a realist so I understand ALL my needs are not going to get met so I am going to try to prioritize in the order of importance and work from there.

OK lets say that not having a sex life is a major need that is going unmet, which it is ( that means that she would have to want and enjoy sex also to have a sex life)

I am pretty sure of the reasons why she has nothing to give me. Would it be wrong to for me to bring up the reasons for her feeling this way?

• issues with her son

• issues that stemmed from her devaluing me over 3 years ago that has led to this

• her past

• anti depressants (she has already stated she is not going to alter them, because this issue (her not having a sex drive) is not important enough for her to change

there is a list of unmet needs but this no sex issue is probably number one (maybe this seems shallow to some) I want full sex enjoyed by both, that is normal and healthy and I don't feel guilty about it anymore.

I have been there for her the last five years in every emotional capacity that I know how I want someone to give back to me.

[Grey Kitty]

Having a satisfying sex life is a doozy of an unmet need.

As far as I see it, you are entitled to have all the sex you want by yourself... .but that sure isn't the same, nor is it what you are talking about.

I'm pretty sure that having sex with somebody besides your wife isn't an option that either you or your wife would find acceptable.

If your wife doesn't want to have happy enthusiastic sex with you, that is her choice, not yours.

The only thing you can do which is true to your needs and values is talk to her about it. Don't talk to her about HER reasons. Those don't have anything to do with your needs.

Tell her that you cannot and will not stay in a marriage forever without satisfying sex.

That you want to work with her to fix this and save your marriage to her.

And this is a tough one--because if you and she cannot find a middle ground here, you would be ending the marriage over it. In the end, there are two questions about how important this marriage is.

Is the marriage important enough to you to give up sex (or satisfying sex with your wife's enthusiastic participation) for?

(That is your choice)

Is the marriage important enough to have (enthusiastic) sex with you?

(That is her choice)

You kinda have to make your choice... .and if the answer is no, the marriage isn't worth putting up with this longer... .then she has a choice to make. It is only fair to her to let her know what the consequences of her choice are.

[byfaith]

I am basing the emotional needs from material I found a couple of years ago from marriage builders www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

this link describes these needs in detail and how he uses them in his practice. We will eventually have to deal with each of these if we make it that far but the sexual fulfillment has to be worked on first.

Affection

Sexual Fulfillment

Conversation

Recreational Companionship

Honesty and Openness

Physical Attractiveness

Financial Support

Domestic Support

Family Commitment

Admiration

I came up with my own mental list the other day, I will elaborate on these at a later time.

We are socially incompatible

we are sexually incompatible

we are spiritually incompatible

we are also incompatible in securing our future (we have different ideas on future plans financially and presently)

[Grey Kitty]

Uhm, this is a pretty bad list here... .

We are socially incompatible

we are sexually incompatible

we are spiritually incompatible

we are also incompatible in securing our future (we have different ideas on future plans financially and presently)

Why do you want to stay in your marriage?

[formflier]

You can fix all the incompatibilities by yourself, except for sex.

Maybe compensate for is a better word.  This assumes she is not going to be ok with you going to have sex with others.

My guess is that doing that would be against your values.

Her choices are choosing for you to be celibate.  In reality, maybe better to say that your going along with her choices are resulting in that.

You message to her (delivered in MC) needs to be that you want to support her, but being celibate is not on the table.  

FF

[byfaith]

GK,

I know it does look pretty bad... .my hope is that with MC ( and individual therapy) she will work through some of her issues and begin seeing herself in a different light. I am not going to force it on her.

I want to try to make it work and I will go as far as I can. I made a commitment in marriage but so did she and if she does not honor her part then I cannot help that.

FF

You message to her (delivered in MC) needs to be that you want to support her, but being celibate is not on the table.

also I need to keep this in the forefront

What needs do you have which have been unmet?

This is the focus.  All other course of action should flow from this.


MC began march 4 and to this point she has been there one time I have gone 3 times by myself. Going tomorrow by myself. We will see how it unfolds.

[Grey Kitty]

Why do you want to stay in your marriage?

I really would like to hear your answer to this--it isn't a rhetorical question. You've listed a bunch of problems, but you've also stayed for quite a while already.

What are the positives for staying?

Or if you really can't think of any, what are the negatives of leaving?

[Verbena]

I've stuffed my feelings on and off, mostly on, for the better part of three decades.  I don't recommend it.  Once the feelings build and build, they don't tend to come out in a positive or constructive way.

Have you tried writing letters? 

[byfaith]

Why do you want to stay in your marriage?

I really would like to hear your answer to this--it isn't a rhetorical question. You've listed a bunch of problems, but you've also stayed for quite a while already.

I really thought about this. Yes there are a bunch of problems. I am going to get Biblical here

What are the positives for staying?

My pastor taught a message last week about the woman who went to Jesus asking for healing for her daughter but she was a gentile and He said to her it is not appropriate to take the children's (Israel) bread and feed it to the dogs and she said yes Lord but the dogs eat from the crumbs that fall from the masters table, and then He said to her great is your faith, your request is granted, and her daughter was made whole (this was paraphrased)

I have been getting crumbs for a long time as far as my marriage goes. I can run on them maybe a little bit more. I stay because I am trying to honor Christ and what the Bible says about marriage.

I will not stay at all costs. Right now I stay to please God that is my positive.  also I have compassion on my wife (and her son) the Bible also says in Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference. That may be considered by some to be a Co-dependent statement.  If this marriage does not work out I can at least look back and say to my self and to my God that I did all that I could do.

My wife is also not a horrible person. Her wants and needs and expectations and my wants and needs and expectations are not matching. It is just taking me a long time to understand how to communicate with her how I feel. If I don't learn how to do that then I may look back and have regrets that I didn't work on my communication skills

Yes verbena I have written letters that I have not sent. It helped to some degree.

[byfaith]

GK,

as far as the list goes... .I will address one at a time

socially incompatible.

I don't remember the last time we went out on a date. Her putting on decent clothes, fixing her hair, putting on a little makeup, go out holding hands, kissing, flirting, being romantic,

( to be honest I don't even think she has a desire to do this) In the five years we have been together she, to my remembrance, has never expressed a desire to just be out alone with me or get a way for a couple of days by ourself.

She does not go to church with me ( she did the first year we were together) she says her weight is the issue.

She does not visit family with me. I have a close cousin that live about 15 minutes from us. We are like brothers (our twin mothers married brothers). She has nothing against him and his wife. She just will not socialize because of her self image.

I have a new grandson. She wants to be co grandparent with me ( I don't have a problem with that nor does my daughter but my wife will not make special plans to attend things involving my grandson)

there will be a baby dedication in a couple of weeks ( I will have a heart attack if she says she will try to go)

I know people will say you can do all of these things on your own CORRECT but then why do I have a companion? This list could keep on going

I feel like we live separate lives.

OK lets say she comes around and decides to start going to church with me or want to go on dates with me ( the other things that I have listed here may not seem as magnified) it would still suck but not as bad.

[Grey Kitty]

I do not claim to understand your faith, and do not feel in any way qualified to address any questions about faith with you. I am trying to understand your actions and choices, and help you clarify things for yourself.

I have been getting crumbs for a long time as far as my marriage goes. I can run on them maybe a little bit more. I stay because I am trying to honor Christ and what the Bible says about marriage.

I will not stay at all costs. Right now I stay to please God that is my positive.

This may be a bit more negative than what you said, but here's one version of your bottom line:

Your marriage is completely unfulfilling, but your faith prevents you from ending it. So you are going to stay in it and be very unhappy as long as you possibly can before you will end it.

:'( If that is how you feel about it, I think the only question left is how much longer you will suffer in your marriage before giving up. At least that is how it would be for me as I try to step into your shoes.

I was hoping that there was more left that you valued in your marriage that might make you feel good about dealing with the difficult parts.

Edit: Please correct me if my summary does not match your feelings and beliefs.

[formflier]

Byfaith,

Hey, listen, we have had some spiritual posts on here before.  I'm conservative Christian (baptist variety).  My faith has kept me in the marriage, when I likely would have otherwise quit.

So, please take this as something to pray about and seek out what God's word has to say about this.

To my knowledge, you are not going to find something that directly (exactly) addresses your situation.

Is your wife a Christian?  

Yes you are called to love your wife as Christ loved the church.  But what would Christ do about someone that has made a choice to live as your wife has chosen?  Would he lovingly support her (read enable) to continue in sin?  

I do believe that people have free will.  So, if Christ withdrew his support, it is possible she would continue in her sinful ways.

Yes there is also a discussion about people with mental illness, is it a sin because of that?  My opinion is that for people that are out and about in society and know right from wrong, that it is a sin.

Anyway, I'll get to my point.  My gut reaction to your situation is that what you are trying to do in Christian love (in your mind) is likely enabling sin.

Please pray about this.  I may have it wrong.  

I'll hush for now.  If this is helpful, more than happy to continue.

Maybe another way to say this.  It appears that the ONLY reason you are still in the marriage is because of your faith.  It is important that you get your faith right.  The process of prayer and searching will either strengthen you to withstand this trial, or perhaps shed some new light on the situation.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't wish to argue theology as I am not an expert, but I think one thing that is evident is that interpretation of Bible passages can vary. I do think that the passage about taking crumbs as a measure of faith is not described in context of marriage.

While you are focusing on the way your wife is narrowing your choices ( socializing, celibacy), one really has no control over her choices. She can choose to go out with you or not. She can decide to have sex or not. Her choices indeed affect you, but the focus on her can leave you feeling like a victim of her choices.

The problem with this perspective is that it can make people feel helpless. Perhaps looking at your choices within these circumstances will help you make your choices. I also agree with FF in perhaps getting some theological help with regards to what your faith tells you about marriage, both your obligations to that agreement and your wife's so that you can choose with the peace of mind that you are following your ethics.

IMHO ,a core issue of your marriage is your wife's choice to not have sex. Religions differ with the concept of celibacy. From what I know about Christianity, marriage is the ethical choice for those who choose to not be celibate and still do the right thing according to their religion. Over a lifetime together there can be periods of celibacy- perhaps someone is deployed in the armed forces, or someone isn't feeling well at the time. However, there is still the intent to be intimate and times of intimacy. The situation is temporary- not long term, indefinite celibacy.

Celibacy is another choice- but one doesn't need to choose marriage to be celibate. You say you wish to honor your vows, but did you and your wife enter this agreement with the decision to be celibate too? I don't think so.

You have choices. I am not suggesting you leave your marriage and I am certainly not suggesting that you cheat. That is not ethical. However, it may help for you to make the choice among the choices you have.  That is, if you remain in this marriage, you also choose celibacy ( she may or may not change her mind, but this is all you know). Or, you decide that you do not want to live a celibate life, and wish to end the marriage in order to find a compatible partner. Or you choose to be a celibate single man. I hope somewhere there is someone with the theological knowledge to help you with this. If indeed, you choose that the best way to honor your faith is to honor this marriage, for better for worse, then your taking charge of this choice- you knowing that you chose it among the options available to you, and that includes choosing celibacy at the moment, may help you make peace with this decision.

[formflier]

 

So, no intent here to get into shoulds, shalls, and what is and isn't a commandment.

Personally, I think there is danger in being "too literal" with the Bible and taking something out of context that was meant for another situation.  I also see just as much danger in NOT taking the Bible "at face value" and saying "this doesn't apply to me because, "

I believe that some stuff is a bit unclear, because God wants us to read and then pray for his guidance in applying it to our specific situation.

That being said,

I'm not aware of of any passage that says wives and husbands should not have sex or can deprive each other.

I'm also not comfortable saying that a husband "owns" his wife, in such a way that she has no choice.  (there are some that say this type of thing)

Clearly (to me), sex was given to husbands and wives to enjoy each other in context of marriage.

You clearly want to have sex with your wife.  She is denying that and making jokes about "the dollar menu".  It seems obvious that she has not been in prayer for the past several years.  Soo, the conclusion is that she is willfully choosing to disobey God's word.  That's NEVER good, for anyone involved.

The question is, what should you do about it.

FF

1 Corinthians 7 English Standard Version (ESV)


7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control

[Notwendy]

I would take issue with the part about authority over someone else's body. I think though the general idea is- if you choose to be married, then you need to consider your spouse when making decisions about sex- because in this one instance, it takes both bodies! - and one person doesn't really have the authority to impose their bodily desires on another human- whether that is insisting on sex or celibacy. There needs to be some sort of collaboration and consideration between them.

Not all religions embrace the idea of celibacy, but Christianity does. IMHO,( my own thoughts)  for such a decision to be a spiritual one, it has to evolve from the person's consideration and choice. Although not quite the same a celibacy, someone may choose to not eat pork, or drink alcohol, as an expression of their faith, however, that practice gains meaning when the person gives it meaning by choosing it. I don't know if it would have the same meaning if it was imposed on them.

Now, some things are imposed on us by the law. We don't get to break the law- like stealing. However, there seem to be many religious ideas that are not the realm of the law and this is for people to decide.

You didn't choose celibacy. Your wife did, and by doing so, she imposed it on you. Your choice then becomes about your response to that.

[formflier]

I would take issue with the part about authority over someone else's body.

Yep, many do.

If two are of a very similar mind, then the "one flesh" concept works out well.  With a PD in the mix, it is disastrous.

FF

[Notwendy]

I would be curious what byfaith's denomination says about a marriage without intimacy. Religions, and denominations vary on their approaches to the topics of celibacy, sexual relations in marriage, birth control.

Is it even allowed to choose to deny sex to a spouse? ( on a long term basis, I am not talking about when one spouse is under the weather, or on a business trip, or temporarily out of town- but something like in byfaith's case- years). This to me in a way violates the marriage in a major way but since these concepts can vary within religions it would be up to byfaith's church to decide exactly.

For instance, if someone decided to become a priest or nun, and take a vow of celibacy, I don't think they could also be married. When someone chooses to become a nun or priest- they are making a spiritual commitment. However, when one has made a commitment to a spouse and chooses celibacy ( without the agreement of the spouse) it seems they are breaking one.

That's just my ideas about this and it would take someone with greater expertise than me to decide on byfaith's denomination's ideas.

[byfaith]

interesting developments over the last three days.

My wife "seems" to be "coming around" with the sexual issue. Still no total sexual experience yet. She is becoming a little more comfortable with the way she feels around me and what I mean by that is letting me maybe see certain parts of her body such as her legs up to her butt ( I know this sounds weird) she has extreme self image problems. I am trying to get a feel for where she is letting all of this go.

For the first time in over 3 years she put on fingernails this weekend.  That is major. Again I know that sounds strange. She is trying to bolster her self image. I see her trying. We actually had company to the house saturday she arranged it all. We all had a nice time. So she is trying to work on the social aspects.

She even discussed having to begin locking the bedroom door because her son just walks into the room at anytime through the night, while we are asleep. She even talked about that in front of him. Her preference to leave the door open just stems from her wanting to hear what is going on in the house. We had discussed sound monitors in the house. So we will see.

She is still uptight if we are fooling around and she knows he is still up. He caused us a couple of interruptions the other night. My wife did "ok".

By no means do I think things are ok but they are going in a better direction. We are going to MC on Wed. We have tons of work to do.  I have fears to overcome in relating to my wife. No surprise this stems from my FOO. I discussed this with the T (MC) on thursday.

Notwendy, I will address your question a little later today on the denomination thing

[byfaith]

Right now I am not trying to bring up any major issues until we get into our first MC session together on Wednesday.

[Grey Kitty]

  This sounds really encouraging. She is clearly trying and working on it. I'm sure that progress is slower than you want, and may have setbacks on the way... .but this is incredibly encouraging!

I have fears to overcome in relating to my wife. No surprise this stems from my FOO.

I'm glad you are addressing this, and that your T is involved. Do you want to share any more about it here?

[formflier]

Right now I am not trying to bring up any major issues until we get into our first MC session together on Wednesday.

That is smart.

I see a couple goals for Wed and sex."

Put issue on the table, as best is possible in a non-judgmental way.  

That you want to listen and understand about your wife's desire to move away from having sex for past 3 years.

Ask the question, is this something we can work on?  Confirm your understanding of the answer that you get, either way.  :)on't agree or disagree, just make sure you can repeat back her answer and get confirmation that you have it right.

FF

[Notwendy]

There are articles about women feeling insecure about people seeing their bodies, and yet, their partners think they look great. These articles note that while some women look in the mirror and see every figure flaw. Yet at the same time, their partners are thinking "woo hoo a naked lady!"

Part of this is because of the fashion industry- super skinny models and modern technology that photoshops people to the point that they don't look real. Many of us women know the feeling of cringing when trying on bathing suits- even average size women.

I can only imagine how much worse it would feel for someone with BPD and who is overweight. It is great that she did her nails, and is making some effort. I am sure it helps that you tell her you are attracted to her. Still, I bet she has trouble believing it herself, especially with messages from fashion that tell her otherwise.

I don't know if it is affordable for you, but I wonder if a gift for a spa day would make her feel special. It would be a fine line to walk as you don't want to give her the wrong message, but maybe not a focus on appearance so much but treating her to something special- like a pedicure and massage- where she would also feel prettier. Maybe a gift of something modest, but attractive- like a slinky nighty that still covers her in the places she wants covered. Doing these things- not with the expectations of sex right away, but as messages from you that her body is good, not shameful might help her deal. You won't fix her issues, but she may feel these things as acts of attraction.

[byfaith]

@Notwendy there are soo many deep issues surrounding the sex and the physical attraction issue. I believe she is relating herself to what she she used to be on the outside to what she feels that she is now. Everything used to be about her looks.

I have thought about the spa thing I may do this for her.

Today we go to our first MC session together. MC began two months ago today and this is our first one together.

formflier  I have done well at not bringing up issues before MC session.

To be honest I am a little nervous about today. My main thing is to bring up issues without coming across as blaming.

[formflier]

 

Well, how did it go?

FF

[Notwendy]

Byfaith, I think this is something all women struggle with, more or less, because of the emphasis on looks in our society. Over time, none of us, including men, look "as good" (according to the standard of youth and beauty) as we once did. I think there are reasons to keep up a fitness/diet routine- for health as well as appearance but even so, appearance changes.

I think how our spouse feels about us has an impact to some extent- when my H painted me black, my self esteem took a hit. I had to learn to rebuild that, independent on how he- or anyone else felt because feelings can change. With the physical part, it is hard, because well, if he didn't want me, being married, I was not going to look for attraction anywhere else. Eventually, I had to get centered- secure with myself regardless of if anyone else was attracted to me or not. Ironically, I think doing this contributes to our own attractiveness. I think people are less attracted to people with low self esteem.

I mention this because - while you are looking at your wife's contributions to the issues, it has to take a toll on you. Someone who is other centered- looks to others for reassurance of attractiveness, is in a sense, basing their self image on someone else. People looking for "replacements" or affairs might be doing that. This would be wrong for you. But nothing says you can not work on yourself- you take on a fitness plan, or a new hobby, or some activity that boosts your own self esteem. It won't mean you don't approach your wife- you should still do that, but it will come from a different emotional place.

The book Passionate Marriage addresses these issues. The title to me is a bit misleading. It is about sex in marriage, the language a bit steamy in parts, but really, it is about co-dependency and enmeshment, and how that affects relationships. It isn't about BPD, but it has some good ideas.

[byfaith]

Well... .how did it go?

it was good. what the MC is trying to do is establish a path for us to communicate better. From my individual visits it has been established that I have a fear of communicating things that I know are going to create a "problem" or bad reaction from someone else. Mainly in close relationships. I tend to have a hard time getting to the point. I have been told this by several people. This does not make me feel bad about myself BTW it just made me realize what I have been doing all my life and it needs to change.

SO what I see this doing is helping me deal with confronting issues no matter how difficult. This first session together I couldn't bring up the no sex issue because MC was mapping out the path to be able to to discuss issues that are bothering us. Here is the hurdle this is a Notwendy quote from another thread

PD affects communication in relationships. I have noticed that couples who are emotionally healthy have been able to work out even major differences. With PD's it seems even the slightest difference can be tough to work out.

this is the part I am concerned about With PD's it seems even the slightest difference can be tough to work out.

Aside from the sex issue

I come home almost every night and she is sitting doing nothing except playing games on her iPad along with the fact that nothing else was accomplished by her the whole day. This will not work for me in the long run but I have to find a way to communicate in a proper way that this is not going to work for me. When I ask nicely "do not spend money to get to your next level" that request is even ignored. She does not do it in a mean spirited way though.

We have a lot of work to do. There were no hostile exchanges though which was good.

so the next sessions will be individual. We will be doing something called Restructuring Frustrations Exercise this will begin getting to specific issues

www.relationship-help.com/wkstn/rfesampleform.htm

[formflier]

this is the part I am concerned about With PD's it seems even the slightest difference can be tough to work out.

I would modify this by saying, "without guidance" it can be tough to work out.  Sure, it can be with guidance as well.

Hang your hat on "the fact" that she showed up and is participating. 

Let the future take care of itself, the past is gone and can't be undone.  Be present and appreciative for what is going on right now. 

I'm seeing her taking a step in the right direction.

Hang in there!

OBTW, I have some of the same issues about bringing up stuff that "is going to be a problem". 

I bring it up "just fine" but in order to be able to do that I focus on being businesslike.  It comes across as robotic and uncaring.  Yes it has gotten better as I focus on empathy and validation, but I suspect that it will always be a struggle.

Knowing that I have this issue leads me to sometimes be a bit avoidant.  In other words, I rarely bring things up too early.  My wife will normally comment that "I wish we had talked about this earlier, "

Good to know what your "normal" reaction is, so you can focus on a healthier one.  I try to stay away from "right and wrong" and just try to do something that is better than what I used to do,

FF