Why Can the BPD Never Own Their Mistakes?

[Wood stock]

... .even when the mistakes are right in front of their face? WHY is it someone else's fault? WHY do they turn the conversation to you and bring up either some petty incident from two years ago or better yet, CREATE some fictitious story to put you, the non, on the spot?  And the. When you, the non, refuse to "admit" to the bogus story they have conjured up in their head... .then you the non, are a liar and every other name in the book. I wonder if the BPD is secretly aware that what they're saying is total BS or if they actually believe their own story... .that they made up. It's hard to even end the relationship when the two of you aren't even talking about the same thing. Amazing.

I need help from my BPD family on how to just LET IT GO... .

It's so hard, I think because if he would just ADMIT to the issues and ADMIT to his emotional instability, we could really have a great life! I know I will be fine without him--I know he will not be fine without me, so of course, I'm trying to save HIM from this grave mistake.  WHY?

Help me wrap my brain around this... .please. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

Rather than feeling a sense of guilt -- a sense of having done something wrong that can be corrected or that needs an apology -- pwBPD feel shame, a sense that they are a worthless person.  If you criticize them, they will defend themselves adamantly to avoid the eventuality that they are worthless, horrible people.  There is no such thing as "bad deeds."  There are only bad people.  Accepting responsibility means admitting that they are horrible, no good, very bad people.  If that were your entrenched belief system, you'd defend yourself passionately in an argument, too.

The sense of being horrible and worthless is so bad that pwBPD have a set of defense mechanisms (worth a Google) that keep them from having to realize the truth about what they've done.  pwBPD tend to use very primitive defense mechanisms like splitting and projection.  This staves off the pain they feel from being worthless.  If worse comes to worst, they will literally conjure up a parallel reality where they didn't do the thing that makes them horrible.

You are unlikely to get a pwBPD to accept responsibility, especially if they are emotionally dysregulated.  Their disorder is quite literally a guard against having to feel culpability -- and by extension to feel worthless.

Hope that helps.

[Wood stock]

Thank you... .I guess I knew all that. Just needed to be reminded.

[Ahoy]

Thank you... .I guess I knew all that. Just needed to be reminded.

I can honestly say, having worked in a job where I continually see the worst in humanity. BPD still takes the cake. For the sufferer yes, but also for ALL the poor souls who wander too close and get sucked into the vortex.

[Nuitari]

Rather than feeling a sense of guilt -- a sense of having done something wrong that can be corrected or that needs an apology -- pwBPD feel shame, a sense that they are a worthless person.  If you criticize them, they will defend themselves adamantly to avoid the eventuality that they are worthless, horrible people.  There is no such thing as "bad deeds."  There are only bad people.  Accepting responsibility means admitting that they are horrible, no good, very bad people.  If that were your entrenched belief system, you'd defend yourself passionately in an argument, too.

The weird thing about my ex is that she had no problem admitting her faults and apologizing for her actions when she was the one bringing them up. She could offer up apology after apology with no prodding from me. But the minute I brought one of those issues up, or expressed any kind of pain or anger at her actions, she would suddenly go into defense mode and try to rationalize and excuse everything she's done, and would get angry at me for attacking her. She could own up to her bad behavior and apologize for it only when it was on her terms.  But when someone else calls her out on something, she's no longer sorry about it, and will go to ridiculous extremes to defend herself.

The sense of being horrible and worthless is so bad that pwBPD have a set of defense mechanisms (worth a Google) that keep them from having to realize the truth about what they've done.  pwBPD tend to use very primitive defense mechanisms like splitting and projection.  This staves off the pain they feel from being worthless.  If worse comes to worst, they will literally conjure up a parallel reality where they didn't do the thing that makes them horrible.

Once, when my ex was having a meltdown, she screamed at me.  When she later recounted the event she accused me of screaming at her. I've often wondered if that is what she actually remembers.

[Caley]

To understand would require you to dismiss everything you know regarding the concept of right and wrong ... !

Imagine you are six foot tall and have thick curly hair. Then someone comes along and says you are four ft tall and are bald. Never, ever will you ever, ever, ever accept that you are 4ft and bald. You understand this, right?

Now perhaps you can understand ... .

They will never own, accept or be accountable for their mistakes ... because they don't make mistakes ... they are never 'wrong' and therefore ... can't be 'blamed' ... ! To accept that they've made a mistake is to risk losing existence itself.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Woodstock, The reason why they can't own their mistakes, as GreenEyedMonster suggests, is due in part to their black and white thinking.  If they allowed themselves to own a mistake, it would cause them to paint themselves black, which is unlikely to happen.  Instead, it works better for them if they can shift the blame to the Non, or to another person, or some outside force.  As Nuitari notes, this approach can lead to revisionist history, where certain events are re-invented in their mind so that they are not the one at fault.  My personal view is that they actually believe the altered version of events is the way it happened, notwithstanding any evidence to the contrary that you might present!  Just how it is with a pwBPD.

LuckyJim

[cherryblossom]

They should bring back trials of using small controlled doses of mdma in therapy as people would be buffered against the feelings of worthlessness in order to challenge their core beliefs more effectively

[Stripey77]

Green Eyed... .this is a brilliant summing up, thank you. One of the biggest   that started to make me feel increasingly uneasy and unhappy last year was the sense that he was never, ever in the wrong, but I was frequently becoming more so, and always over such ridiculously tiny issues that I struggled to put a foot right. I later learned that this is the infamous 'walking on eggshells' associated with BPD. I was so terrified of losing this precious and amazing new relationship, and being dumped (which I was anyway, of course) I would say anything to 'put things right' when if effect, I had done little to nothing wrong. I am talking about very, very minor disagreements that a regular couple would air out in a matter of minutes.  I was effectively strung up for them. It was only after the first break up when I relayed some of these stories to a close male friend, that he instantaneously told me how controlling the behaviour was that I was describing. As he said, I couldn't see it at the time, and that's the incredibly clever and manipulative side of BPD for you. I found myself apologising for drummed up charges of 'creating problems' - I have posted elsewhere about this, but has led to me and my friends/parents jokingly referring to me as The Problem Maker. You have to find humour in all of this somewhere.  :)espite all of the love, affection, attention, plenty of great sex, and adoration I offered... .I somehow became the source of Problems. I didn't cheat, lie, deceive, fall in a ditch drunk, steal, betray, withhold affection, shout and scream, or anything like that... but you'd be forgiven for thinking that I did.  I suppose what I'm saying is that it seems the other side of the 'not apologising' coin is that we, the nons, seem to be doing enough apologising for both partners - including for perceived slights that we didn't know we had committed! Well that was certainly my experience. And I did it, that's the worst part of it.

I actually believed I had created problems the first time it happened, whereas I think the truth of that particular event was far, far darker and involved something he felt ashamed about. Once I had cried, humbled myself and apologised... .(after being a told a WEEK later about this problem I'd created), he seemed more in love than ever. The strangest thing of all is, that the day immediately after the event in question, he was extremely quiet, so much so he scared me, and wanted to keep kissing me all day long. He kept staring at me like he was going to cry. I thought he was either going to dump me or tell me he loved me.  I now 100% believe that the night in question (which involved friends) actually highlighted something about HIM and something HE had done in the past, and the next day I was witnessing the guilt/shame coming from that, as well a desire not to repeat it with me. Funny how a week later, I ended up apologising for that night. I had apparently said something that offended one of his friends, yet it took him a week to tell me so?  And then, after I took the blame for this so called Problem I had made, he told me he loved me for the first time. I bet he did too, I had just sucked up all the guilt and blame without even being aware I'd done something wrong on the night in question.

Green Eyed, you are so on the money! Even as I write this... .I can now clearly see that HE was the one feeling shame that night, but he found a way to project it on to me. Oh... .and conveniently keep me away from his friends from that point onwards. Clever hey?

I will post one day about The Night when the wheels truly came off and I could hardly recognise the man I was talking to. I can't wait to post it just to see what you all say... .you could't make it up.  And of course, none of that was him being horrible to me or required an apology.  

But back to the ownership/responsibility.  On the one big occasion I summed up the courage to tell my ex-BF that he had upset and hurt me (and it took me 3 days in part because I was so annoyed) the shutters came down on the spot. I was point blank told, in no uncertain manner, that he didn't see it that way, and pretty much that if I did, that was my problem. Black and white. Conversation over. My hurt over the matter ... .well, didn't matter... .because he didn't agree.  It didn't matter that I was upset and was told that my feelings of being slighted were 'such an exaggeration'. They were in fact, real and valid.

My BF apologised to me twice, that I recall, after I told him that he had upset me. Once because I told him immediately after he tried to boss me around that it was a direct example of what I had been talking about. He immediately apologised, and actually met me half way so we did what I wanted to do as well.

The 2nd time, on our 'recycle' he had asked me to meet him in town. I raced back, only for him to have got so drunk in the interim that he went home to bed instead and missed our rendezvous. The next day he made up for it by coming to my new home  and when I pointed out to him what he'd done before, he did to his credit apologise.

On both occasions, his apology was one simple 'sorry'. Issued quickly and quietly and in EXACTLY the way a small child might do who was ashamed, and didn't really want to apologise, because they haven't learned the art of it yet... .but recognised that they really had to.


On the one occasion he DID apologise for something of his own volition, it wasn't something that really required a deep apology, yet he issued one so heart felt and with a hug - then followed it up with a text repeating the apology and telling me how much he adored me.  But I  hadn't even said I was upset.

Go figure.

[C.Stein]

On the one occasion he DID apologise for something of his own volition, it wasn't something that really required a deep apology, yet he issued one so heart felt and with a hug - then followed it up with a text repeating the apology and telling me how much he adored me.  But I  hadn't even said I was upset.

My ex was the same.  She could easily apologize and take responsibility for minor things, even things that weren't really her fault, but when it came to ones that had emotional consequence, particularly with regard to how she views herself, she couldn't do it.  This behavior certainly leaves one very confused as it paints a different picture than what is really there.  Basically the way I see it, the more emotions that are involved in something that is done which requires accountability and an apology the more difficult it becomes.  This is particularly poignant when the actions/behavior hurts someone they love and they are at risk of being seen as a "bad" person.

[goateeki]

To understand would require you to dismiss everything you know regarding the concept of right and wrong ... !

Imagine you are six foot tall and have thick curly hair. Then someone comes along and says you are four ft tall and are bald. Never, ever will you ever, ever, ever accept that you are 4ft and bald. You understand this, right?

Now perhaps you can understand ... .

They will never own, accept or be accountable for their mistakes ... because they don't make mistakes ... they are never 'wrong' and therefore ... can't be 'blamed' ... ! To accept that they've made a mistake is to risk losing existence itself.

I agree with all of this and especially the last paragraph -- every part of it is true, including the last sentence.  To accept a reality in which those split black might not actually be black, or those split white might not actually be white, is the most destabilizing thing a pwBPD can imagine because it opens up the possibility that there is gray in the world, and they might, just might have played some role in their own misfortune, or might have destroyed lives along the way.

My diagnosed pwBPD ex wife once left our gas stove on. An accident, to be sure, but one that had the potential to blow up the house and the neighborhood. Possibly the closest to death I've ever come. When we reentered the house and discovered that the gas had been left on, emitting itself into the house, I turned off the stove and said in a perfectly calm voice "Please try to be careful about that, dear.  It can blow up the neighborhood." For the next five minutes she insisted that it was not she, but our infant daughter, who could not stand and had just begun to crawl, who turned the knob and left the gas on.

The elaborate fictions these people spin to absolve themselves of fault, even fault that is merely potential, has always amazed me.   

[GoingBack2OC]

Rather than feeling a sense of guilt -- a sense of having done something wrong that can be corrected or that needs an apology -- pwBPD feel shame, a sense that they are a worthless person.  If you criticize them, they will defend themselves adamantly to avoid the eventuality that they are worthless, horrible people.  There is no such thing as "bad deeds."  There are only bad people.  Accepting responsibility means admitting that they are horrible, no good, very bad people.  If that were your entrenched belief system, you'd defend yourself passionately in an argument, too.

The sense of being horrible and worthless is so bad that pwBPD have a set of defense mechanisms (worth a Google) that keep them from having to realize the truth about what they've done.  pwBPD tend to use very primitive defense mechanisms like splitting and projection.  This staves off the pain they feel from being worthless.  If worse comes to worst, they will literally conjure up a parallel reality where they didn't do the thing that makes them horrible.

You are unlikely to get a pwBPD to accept responsibility, especially if they are emotionally dysregulated.  Their disorder is quite literally a guard against having to feel culpability -- and by extension to feel worthless.

Hope that helps.

This post just nails it. My exGFuBPD would behave precisely within this paradigm.

If for example, I am stressed, and I say something rude to someone (say for just the example I am so stressed/distracted I didn't even realize myself I insulted or hurt the person)... .Now the person the next day is giving me the cold shoulder. I would approach them, say "Hey whats wrong".

If they communicated to me "What you said to me yesterday really hurt me, insulted me, embarrassed me". My response would be to 1.) Think for a second  2.) Then, realizing wow yea I shouldn't have acted that way I'd: 3.) Say "Hey, Look, I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. I know I did, it was wrong of me to say that. I was under stress, which is no excuse. It was a mistake. I apologize.

My exGFuBPD:   If she insulted me; and I calmly brought it to her attention. Her logic or "way of working through it" would usually go like this:

Step 1:   Ignore me. Silent Treatment. Could last Days. Weeks. Would not respond at all.

Step 2:  When we would finally talk:  I would be accused of harassing her.

Step 3:  When I would finally be allowed to have a small sliver of time to explain what upset me:

Step 4:  She would become hysterical. Claiming I am accusing her of being a horrible person. A terrible soul. A monster. Defense Level 10/10.

Step 5:  I'd explain I'm not saying that at all (if she hadn't already hung up on me); saying what she said really hurt my feelings. I'm not saying that she's a horrible person at all- I don't think that at all; but what she said did hurt me, I'm trying to work it out.

Step 6:  One of her canned responses:  I know I'm a horrible person. What do you want from me? or I hate you.

That was her "strategy" for conflict resolution.

The only way to resolve conflict with her:  If she did something terrible that hurt me- I mean really hurt me; was to just allow it. Ignore it happened, and pretend to be happy. Any attempt to talk about feelings would result in hysteria. I mean, she literally would hang up, or if together, just get up, and walk out and leave. Talking about a problem, feelings, emotions, issues, was/is simply not possible- at all.

It is simply put, the most bizarre personality trait/disorder I have ever witnessed or been "a part of". She was fired from her job 6 months ago. Still no job. I honestly feel really afraid for her. I think it's something that is deeply rooted within her psyche... .she can't control it. And it will, I am certain, have disastrous consequences in her life moving forward.

She cannot be wrong, the most trivial criticism, constructive or not, is equivalent in her mind to damnation to hell.

[londons]

thoughts:  you people are SMART , INTERESTING, and COMPASSIONATE.     i am thinking that it must be absolutely horrible to have the mind of a borderline.  i cant even imagine what they are going through, as the traits they are missing are necessary to function in society, necessary to be happy with oneself, and necessary to have true love.       i would hate to feel like i was worth "nothing", or that i wasnt a contributing member of society.   i would like to share a text from my ex that relates to this:    "if i knew what to text you besides stay away from me i would.  i cannot get it together, period.  i am staying out of you and your kids lives so u can breathe and im out just to save my own.  i cannot relapse.  i found a place to live that i can move into in 2 days.  i went to 2 aa meetings today.  i am working tomorrow, just to keep busy, even tho it is my day off.  it it means anything, i am praying for you and the kids.  i cant even say sorry .  too many of those.  to be honest, my decision making process seems logical , until there are consequences.  give it time, i will make another poor one.  it truly is insanity.  im my worst enemy.  i forge the weapons i use against myself and i make them good.    i have given everyone nothing but empty platitudes my entire life.  i need to change, but i dont think its possible.  the only thing i can change is to stay away and stop the crap i put people through.  im really not a healthy person to know. i have no idea why im writing this. u have known this forever.  i promise i will not let the kids see moving my stuff. i will get my stuff out ASAP.   "    to me, that is extremely sad. i have not seen him for 4 months.

[WoundedBibi]

They hate to feel like that too. That's why they do everything and anything to not feel that way for 5 seconds, or 5 minutes or 5 hours. Get drunk, get high, have sex, fall in love, drive like a maniac, gamble, anything that takes away those feelings of emptiness and/or worthlessness.

[Turkish]

Not to sound too dry, but clinical studies have shown differences in brain structure with pwBPD. This results in a hyper-active fight or flight response, an inability to form coherent memories (a behavior which drives a lot of us nuts), reliving past traumas "in the moment" and heightened emotional responses, among other things.

I see it in our kids. S6 loses control, and when bothered, goes to the extreme, "I want to die!" or run away. D4 is more of a standard kid manipulator. She can stop crying on a dime, usually. S6's tantrums can go on and on, and sometimes he needs to sleep to reset his brain.

No matter how much in love we were with our partners, it's hard to accept how differently they think, especially on the far side of idealization and mirroring.

[JerryRG]

We did our best didn't we? How could we fix them? They are broken beyond fixing.

My exgf told me she would f up my life, she knows herself well enough to do the right thing to help herself.

She chooses not too so she's fullfiling her own self destructive attitude again and again and again until one day no one will be there to help.

[Stripey77]

C. Stein:

Yes, I think you're right. On the occasion I mentioned above, when I geared myself up to tell how high handed (and, yes, as usual, bossy) he'd been about something and ridden roughshod over my feelings, he practically shut down on me. It was clear that the conversation was over... .or else. Or else being that I'd upset him , he'd be annoyed, relationship in trouble... .i.e. treading on eggshells. He had genuinely hurt me, and actually really annoyed me, but I remember him saying to me "when I have ever hurt you?" He refused to see, or couldn't see, that this incident mattered to me and I think said something like just because that's the way I saw it in in my brain, everyone's minds don't see things the same... .something along those lines.

When I probed a bit further into the incident and asked him what on earth he'd been doing, because I felt I had been 'put to the test' he immediately admitted that a similar scenario had led to him breaking up with his previous GF because she hadn't reacted in the way he'd have liked. It seems that I did behave appropriately, and so, as such I passed the test.  I said to him well 1) I am not your ex girlfriend for a start and 2) I am a grown woman and my conduct is quite in check, thank you very much, so I don't need putting to the test.  Not that he admitted that that was what it was - he just couldn't see it at all.

It's ok though, I went on to fail all the subsequent tests.  

[gotbushels]

Thank you... .I guess I knew all that. Just needed to be reminded.

I can honestly say, having worked in a job where I continually see the worst in humanity. BPD still takes the cake. For the sufferer yes, but also for ALL the poor souls who wander too close and get sucked into the vortex.

Not to sound too dry, but clinical studies have shown differences in brain structure with pwBPD. This results in a hyper-active fight or flight response, an inability to form coherent memories (a behavior which drives a lot of us nuts), reliving past traumas "in the moment" and heightened emotional responses, among other things.

This is a fantastic reminder.

[flourdust]

I don't know how they feel inside, but I have seen that black-and-white thinking turned against themselves when they admit mistakes.

I vividly remember my daughter's last birthday. My wife forgot about it until I mentioned it the night before. She was really upset with herself ("What kind of mother forgets her daughter's birthday?", which isn't an unreasonable reaction. I assured her that I'd already bought presents, and I suggested I could run out to the store and get a cake. It really was fixable.

She started yelling ... .at herself. She called herself an a**hole and other names. I had to try to tell her that she wasn't an awful person.

That's what it's like when they admit fault. It's not just a mistake -- it's a fatal character flaw.

[Lucky Jim]

They hate to feel like that too. That's why they do everything and anything to not feel that way for 5 seconds, or 5 minutes or 5 hours. Get drunk, get high, have sex, fall in love, drive like a maniac, gamble, anything that takes away those feelings of emptiness and/or worthlessness.

Agree w/that, Bibi.  I would add a few other behaviors that also seem to relieve their mental turmoil (at least temporarily): rage, acting out, self-harm, destruction of property, death threats, etc.

LuckyJim

[Concerns]

I had to take the word "sorry" out of my vocabulary.

Using the word "sorry" had a number of horrible affects.

1. I would degrade myself and say "sorry" for all kinds of events and things that never happened in order to try and relieve my BPDw. This never worked.

2. The use of "sorry" became a confirmation in my wife's mind that her thinking was proper and valid. It would result in more disrespect and contempt for me in her mind. It's a vicious downward spiral.

It had to stop. I had to stop degrading myself by being "sorry" all the time. I've eliminated from my lexicon when talking with my ex.

[Lucky Jim]

Great point, Concerns.  I found myself saying sorry for things over which I had no control or influence, almost like being sorry for what the weather is.  I like your approach.  LJ

[ChangingOfTides]

Pro forma and in small doses they can yes. But never those things that really matter.

As our r/s spiralled into an impending breakup, my exBPDw began to excel at revisionist history.

Sure i have made my own mistakes during the rs, a few mayor ones, and I am owning them. But the way she started to rewrite the 6 years we had together, even the honeymoonphase, was really mindboggling.

It was almost like she had not been present at all and never experienced the great times we had together, the care and love i had for her. Instead, every little and large point we every had struggles with in our rs was somehow caused by me. "This relationship was all about what i do not want"

And thats partially painting black but also partially avoiding the blame in the relationship.

The only thing she is willing to be accountable for is her anger. (something she know she has no control over and cant feel ashamed about.)

If you can't be accountable for anything, you can't fix relationship issues and in the end you can lean back and walk away as being the victim of a relationship, and make all the same mistakes all over again in the next one... .

[goateeki]

I had to take the word "sorry" out of my vocabulary.

Using the word "sorry" had a number of horrible affects.

1. I would degrade myself and say "sorry" for all kinds of events and things that never happened in order to try and relieve my BPDw. This never worked.

2. The use of "sorry" became a confirmation in my wife's mind that her thinking was proper and valid. It would result in more disrespect and contempt for me in her mind. It's a vicious downward spiral.

It had to stop. I had to stop degrading myself by being "sorry" all the time. I've eliminated from my lexicon when talking with my ex.

Had the same experience and agree with you.  It's a sick thing, that an apology would result in further devaluation and aggression, but it often does when you're talking about pwBPD.

[gotbushels]

I had to take the word "sorry" out of my vocabulary.

Using the word "sorry" had a number of horrible affects.

1. I would degrade myself and say "sorry" for all kinds of events and things that never happened in order to try and relieve my BPDw. This never worked.

2. The use of "sorry" became a confirmation in my wife's mind that her thinking was proper and valid. It would result in more disrespect and contempt for me in her mind. It's a vicious downward spiral.

It had to stop. I had to stop degrading myself by being "sorry" all the time. I've eliminated from my lexicon when talking with my ex.

I think this is a good example to hold out as how very "healthy" and "normal" interpersonal behaviours can create problematic effects in a relationship with a BP partner. Apologising has an innocent nature, unlike differences based on things like fidelity.

I think the innocent nature of the behaviour Is a good supplement to nons at the stage of Self-Inquiry. It would help here:

As you work through this process be patient. BPD is a very complex disorder to understand as the thought process is very different than our own. Self analysis is also a very complex process as we have are encombered by our own self image and feelings.

It's a good example of how unexpected treatment of a normally "innocent" statement is not technically "wrong" or "right"--it doesn't even fit easily into JADE--but it can still create problems in an interaction.

[Circle]

Great thread, which really hits home right now. Good to be reminded of avoiding using 'sorry', when it's not really appropriate (it's truly not your fault). And, of course, being reminded not to JADE. The one thing I did right in the last day, was to not reply, at all, to an accusatory and destructive text I received. So tempting to reply. I'm going to opt out of the Drama-Triangle. Because, if I defend myself, I will only become more of the 'Persecutor', in their mind. My dxpwBPD, may want a response, perhaps for me to defend myself; I'm going to resist the temptation though. I will win the war by refusing to participate in it.

[Lilyroze]

I had to take the word "sorry" out of my vocabulary.

Using the word "sorry" had a number of horrible affects.

1. I would degrade myself and say "sorry" for all kinds of events and things that never happened in order to try and relieve my BPDw. This never worked.

2. The use of "sorry" became a confirmation in my wife's mind that her thinking was proper and valid. It would result in more disrespect and contempt for me in her mind. It's a vicious downward spiral.

It had to stop. I had to stop degrading myself by being "sorry" all the time. I've eliminated from my lexicon when talking with my ex.

I eventually had to do the same, it was at the end I realized I did that with him and my Mom all my life. I was the one always sorry, trying to make things better, be the better one, walk a mile in their shoes etc. I now know it made it where especially he thought his thinking was always right, with that vicious downward spiral.

I like you had to stop, and also had to stop degrading myself. The only one it hurt was me.

[Meili]

I had to stop apologizing for everything also. It was a major trigger for me because of my FOO.

What I didn't realize until reading some of the tools and lessons here was that when I stopped apologizing, I started invalidating. In essence, I went from rewarding bad behavior to punishing her for it.

[HoneyB33]

I had to take the word "sorry" out of my vocabulary.

Using the word "sorry" had a number of horrible affects.

1. I would degrade myself and say "sorry" for all kinds of events and things that never happened in order to try and relieve my BPDw. This never worked.

2. The use of "sorry" became a confirmation in my wife's mind that her thinking was proper and valid. It would result in more disrespect and contempt for me in her mind. It's a vicious downward spiral.

It had to stop. I had to stop degrading myself by being "sorry" all the time. I've eliminated from my lexicon when talking with my ex.

In reading this thread, it's reminding me of the things that have become disregulated in me because of this relationship.

A huge one is being on guard and defensive around criticism. That's been a really hard one for me because I don't want to not be open to if people are hurt with me, but all I was ever told was how much I was "hurting" this person. And I got pushed so far down, I finally took "responsibility" for things that were not my fault. She used the words I gave in apology TO incriminate me. I was genuinely like, "If I've really done these things (being made to believe I'm abusive, that I have BPD), then I'm really sorry, and I'm going to do something about it." And she used THAT to "prove" to me that I was the disordered, abusive one, and tried to seal me with all of the blame. It's even been really hard for me to get back to just feeling confident in growing. I generally knew before all this that I could grow and change as a person, but now I feel like I have lost this confidence, kind of like my subconscious is saying, "What does it matter?" I really got beaten down by all of this.

But with them rejecting their faults, my ex went on to act like she literally was me. Acting like I was the disordered one, and "Oh, how pitiful." It was so sick, and cruel. They don't just feel worthless and avoid it. They force their worthlessness into you. I think what got to me the most in all of this was that my ex literally went off with my "silver lining". Acting like she had suffered this horrible relationship, but she was blah blah blah, prospering and being herself now. It's literally the most f**ked up thing I have been through, and that is really saying a lot.

[Circle]

"It's even been really hard for me to get back to just feeling confident in growing. I generally knew before all this that I could grow and change as a person, but now I feel like I have lost this confidence, kind of like my subconscious is saying, "What does it matter?" I really got beaten down by all of this."

HoneyB33-

It sounds like you are growing. You're realizing what went wrong. Obviously you've been getting hacked at. But, like a tree, you're going to keep growing. You'll send up new shoots, even if you're down to a trunk only.

As far as smearing our reputations go. That only works to a small degree. Remember, woe to anyone who comes near to the event-horizon; they are bound for the black-hole. What I mean is, they come into conflict and leave blaming others, with almost EVERYONE they are close to. So, if you aren't close with them, and someone else is; that other person, will soon be put into the blender. If you've had a chance to observe, and step back from your person w/BPD at all, you'll have had a chance to see this happen. Over and over again. My dxBPDso was recently dumped by one of their closest friends. This was an older person, who was a confidant and advisor-like person to them. My dxBPDso ended up pulling her 'game' on her older confidant friend, who eventually, after many times told my xBPDso the they weren't trustworthy, and that 'no, they weren't going to be there for them anymore.' Borderlines will embroil whatever relationships they are in, with conflict. Someone is always on their Sh!t List.

[JerryRG]

The short answer for my exgf is immaturity, in emotional development, decision making skills, long term goals, short term goals, honesty, reality, finances, you name it. She just lives in her own dream world where everything is everyone else's fault. Eternal victim and giving her power away, always expecting someone else to do the right thing. But blaming those who try to point out the fatal flaws in her thinking.

[seenr]

I have seen my ex own a mistake in the immediate aftermath of it but then make the mistake somebody else's. As an example she has got very drunk, then the morning after felt guilty for ten minutes then claim her drink was spiked.

[Meili]

My x has owned some of her mistakes. She expects me to just move past them because she apologized though.

She told me this one day as she was 'yelling' at me for something that I did and apologized for.

[bAlex]

They might be ashamed of the things they've done or who they are.

If they feel like they're being accused or pushed into a corner the normal response is to stand up for themselves, because accepting the blame is just too painful.

To them it would serve as confirmation to you both what they already believe about themselves - that he/she is "a bad person". So, for that reason they can't agree with you even if they know you are right.

As emotionally tough as my ex was, or thought she was, she was extremely sensitive to criticism. So in eccence, I think it's nothing more than a defence mechanism.

[Meili]

I agree with what bAlex said. I think that shame has a huge. My x had talked about wanting to reconcile (which is what I want/wanted). We were communicating. Then she told me that she's been doing some research and thinks I suffer from BPD. When I pointed out that she was projecting that was that. Communication has been very limited since.

I should have known better than to say it though. Some of our biggest fights were because I didn't validate her feelings and/or pointed out some flaw.

[Lucky Jim]

I should have known better than to say it though. Some of our biggest fights were because I didn't validate her feelings and/or pointed out some flaw.

Hey Meili, Don't beat yourself up!  Who knew?  BPD is an extremely complex disorder.  Even if you did all those things perfectly, it's doubtful that the outcome would have been different.  Why?  Because most BPD relationships are not built to last, in my view.  Just the way it is.  The stress is enormous over the long haul and even the strongest Nons lose their footing after a while.  The burden grows until it ultimately becomes unmanageable, like the straw that broke the camel's back.  Those that hang in there in a BPD r/s generally do so at an enormous sacrifice.  You probably don't want to hear this, but I predict that a day will come when you will be grateful to have moved on.

I'm jaded, of course, so feel free to take this post with a grain of salt!

LuckyJim

[Meili]

Nah, I'm not beating myself up, but thank you for checking in with me on it. I do have a history of that and all.

I make mistakes. I'm human. I gave up trying to own other people's responses to things. Giving up that responsibility has been quite liberating!

I should have just been more considerate is what I meant. I should have known that it would be a painful/shameful thing for her to hear, and it really wasn't my place to say.

Besides, who knows, maybe she'll tell her counselor about it and they can explore it? Either way, it's totally out of my hands now. She knows how to contact me if she wants.

[Wize]

Validating a pwBPD's feelings is a full time job.  Doesn't leave a lot of time for the good stuff.  And the "good stuff" in a BPD relationship is the moments when they aren't disregulating.  We're not SO's, we're full time nurses and therapist.  No thanks.

[Meili]

Not all pwBPD are the same Wize, just like not all non's are the same. It isn't fair to lump them all together like that. Sure, they share the same traits, but they all function on a spectrum of different degrees.

Plus, there is the fact that if they feel validated and safe some of the time it is much easier to bring them back to that point. They need consistency, not constant validation. There is a difference between the two.

It should also be mentioned that everyone should be treated with compassion, validation, respect, and consideration.

[bAlex]

I should have known better than to say it though. Some of our biggest fights were because I didn't validate her feelings and/or pointed out some flaw.

Yes and I think it is for this reason that my relationship failed too, or at least what caused things to go south initially.

Having this knowledge, it makes one wonder if any of her actions were deliberately intended to be hurtful at all? I'm seeing another side of her, and it's one the needs unconditional love, lots of it. A scared little girl that just needs acceptance and doesn't know any better because her parents abandoned her growing up.

Contrary to what I said in other threads I think if I truly understood her actions, and didn't see it as a threat the relationship could've worked. I'm not speaking for everyone, my experience didn't involve cheating, or any of that...

Thing is I realised all this waaay too late.

Not taking the blame here, don't really think anyone is to blame really, I just understand her better now.

[Meili]

Yep, that's my story too bAlex. I learned too late.

BUT, I will also say that I was only responsible for half the r/s. I can take credit for my missteps, she has to take credit for hers.

[bAlex]

Yep, that's my story too bAlex. I learned too late.

BUT, I will also say that I was only responsible for half the r/s. I can take credit for my missteps, she has to take credit for hers.

I do understand what you mean, but at this point I don't even see the point in either of us owning up to our part in any of it. I see it as totally irrelevant. She admitted to some of her mistakes but ultimately it didn't make a difference. Mistakes were made on both our parts and that's ok. I don't love her any less because of it, I have forgiven her and I don't hold the past against her.

[Circle]

Yeah, it's great to look back and say "if only I had known the techniques and strived for excellence, there is a possibility it would've all worked". The thing is, we are all human, and even at our best, we probably hit 9/10 or 90%. Which still leaves 1 day out of 10, where you aren't going to get it right. So, in line with the theme of the article; on the 10th day, you make a mistake. And, guess what? It's not alright; you've been blacklisted.

"But, I've been doing everything by the book!"

Not on the 10th day you didn't. On the 10th day, you were human, you let down your guard, decided it was alright for you to be normal, and make a mistake. Well, guess what? You don't get a free pass. Because, you're not allowed to make a mistake.

Unless of course you're a perfect 100%, all the time: validating, not j.a.d.e.ing, staying calm, walking away from conflict, being compassionate, not being too co-dependent/care-taking, setting up your boundaries.

It's not like being human, at home, in normal life. It's like war. You don't get to mess up; cause if you do, you've just stepped on a grenade, or taken a bullet, and you're back to square 1, trying to 'Stop the Bleeding'.

[HoneyB33]

Totally true Circle, and who the h*ll can live like that? I sure can't. To be severely punished for not being 100% perfect? That's miserable. Plus, I don't want to be perfect, I rather enjoy my imperfections because I find they lead to really beautiful things if I learn with them.

[bAlex]

Circle,

Would you be with someone who constantly tells you what a bad person you are? That's how she perceived it, I didn't see it that way. I'm not suggesting anyone put up with anything that makes them unhappy, I'm just saying that I understand her motivations for her actions better. And if those actions aren't intended to be hurtful nor perceived as such who's to say that such a relationship isn't sustainable? Different people/problems/situations, I'm speaking strictly for myself here. Perfection wasn't an issue in my case, but the need for her to be loved and what she perceived as hurt was.

[bAlex]

Totally true Circle, and who the h*ll can live like that? I sure can't. To be severely punished for not being 100% perfect? That's miserable. Plus, I don't want to be perfect, I rather enjoy my imperfections because I find they lead to really beautiful things if I learn with them.

Sure, but that's if you think you actually need to be perfect. Just the act of thinking that will cause a relationship to fail. I don't know your story, but mine didn't involve what you speak of.

[Meili]

I do understand what you mean, but at this point I don't even see the point in either of us owning up to our part in any of it. I see it as totally irrelevant.

Well, yeah, totally irrelevant as far as the od r/s is concerned. But, what about you as a person going forward in your life?

We cannot change our pasts. Those have already been written. But, we have control over our futures. Looking at our actions allows us to change, grow, and evolve. It can keep us from repeating old patterns and thus help avoiding repeating the same hurts.

[Circle]

bAlex,

I have been with somebody who has told me what a bad person I am; namely my dxBPDso. Who is to say such a relationship isn't sustainable, you ask? Good question. Probably a good many people on the law boards here would say that it is not. Even though, I am sure that many of them sympahized with their pwBPD's plight and used techniques, etc.

The problem is, it doesn't matter if you understand/sympathize with someone's plight, if they go for the heavy weaponry (legal action, the law, custody, false accusations, smear campaigns, etc.) and decide to take you out. Or, you are practicing the techniques and being cheated on. That's like trying to grow crops in the desert. You can do it; but is it sustainable?

[gotbushels]

Yeah, it's great to look back and say "if only I had known the techniques and strived for excellence, there is a possibility it would've all worked". The thing is, we are all human, and even at our best, we probably hit 9/10 or 90%. Which still leaves 1 day out of 10, where you aren't going to get it right. So, in line with the theme of the article; on the 10th day, you make a mistake. And, guess what? It's not alright; you've been blacklisted.

"But, I've been doing everything by the book!"

Not on the 10th day you didn't. On the 10th day, you were human, you let down your guard, decided it was alright for you to be normal, and make a mistake. Well, guess what? You don't get a free pass. Because, you're not allowed to make a mistake.

Unless of course you're a perfect 100%, all the time: validating, not j.a.d.e.ing, staying calm, walking away from conflict, being compassionate, not being too co-dependent/care-taking, setting up your boundaries.

It's not like being human, at home, in normal life. It's like war. You don't get to mess up; cause if you do, you've just stepped on a grenade, or taken a bullet, and you're back to square 1, trying to 'Stop the Bleeding'.

So good. Thanks for the accurate reminder. 

[bAlex]

I do understand what you mean, but at this point I don't even see the point in either of us owning up to our part in any of it. I see it as totally irrelevant.

Well, yeah, totally irrelevant as far as the od r/s is concerned. But, what about you as a person going forward in your life?

We cannot change our pasts. Those have already been written. But, we have control over our futures. Looking at our actions allows us to change, grow, and evolve. It can keep us from repeating old patterns and thus help avoiding repeating the same hurts.

Nah I've just let go of the finger pointing and the need to be right. That makes moving on a whole lot easier imo. She knows what she did, so do I. Although she might not admit to some of it, like we discussed earlier, it's probably just too painful for her to do and I'm ok with that.

[Herodias]

Circle,

Would you be with someone who constantly tells you what a bad person you are? That's how she perceived it, I didn't see it that way. I'm not suggesting anyone put up with anything that makes them unhappy, I'm just saying that I understand her motivations for her actions better. And if those actions aren't intended to be hurtful nor perceived as such who's to say that such a relationship isn't sustainable? Different people/problems/situations, I'm speaking strictly for myself here. Perfection wasn't an issue in my case, but the need for her to be loved and what she perceived as hurt was.

This is why I believe mine left... .the only problem is that he was screwing around with women, spending all of our money and getting us in debt, drunk all the time, on pills, driving and getting in car crashes! How could I not say anything? I tried to be very understanding, I suppose I just came off as a pathetic person willing to deal with him like that... .the whole situation was sad. I do not believe he has changed one bit. He insisted he wanted to drink for the rest of his life... .I do not believe he will change with the next person. He already told me she doesn't like it either. I can say that was my part in it- trying to make him clean up his act, but then that's controlling - I can't win. This is why I don't see how I was to blame for anything here except getting into it in the first place. He is how he is, I cannot change it. My changing myself made it worse.

[bAlex]

Circle, I see what you mean. But it is entirely dependant on the situation and the people involved. My situation didn't involve such things like you mentioned, that's why I think that a rs in my case would be doable if you truly understand that person's motivations and actions and don't see it as threatening. I'm not saying it will be easy all the time, and it does depend on what that person actually does, but I'd be lying to say it isn't possible.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way beating myself up about it or looking back and torturing myself. It's merely an observation about my ex and the way she is. I don't believe her to be a malicious person now that I look back, I just didn't understand her back then, like most guys still don't today.

[Meili]

That's exactly how I look at it bAlex. My x got so sick of hearing me say things to the extent of, "I know that you're not being malicious," or "I know that you're not intentionally hurting me." When I told her those things, I was hoping that she'd stop and look at what she was doing. I'm not sure that ever happened.

But, I do agree with you that it depends on the people involved. There are people out there who are disordered and have loving, lasting r/s. Like any couple, it takes the right combination, learning how to deal with each other in a manner that sustains the r/s, a lot of love, compassion, caring, and understanding, a lot strength and courage, but most of all, a lot of desire. It has to be something that they both truly want for reason other than it's what they want.

[goateeki]

I have to add something here.  It will make me feel better and add to the discussion, I think.  Let me start by quoting part of what Green Eyed Monster said: " Their disorder is quite literally a guard against having to feel culpability... ." This is brilliant. Many have said insightful things on this site, but this one is really helpful.

Background: Ex wife has huge history of trauma, 19 year marriage imploded a few years back. She is diagnosed. Children (girl, 12 and boy, 9) in therapy. Girl resistant to it, boy actively seeks it out.  Ex wife told me specifically that she did not want me to tell her emotionally significant things boy was saying while he is with me, such as asking me why we divorced and if we could please remarry. She insists that I report every sneeze, but if the children are in emotional distress, she wants nothing of it.

I mentioned to the children's therapist that this was happening. She asked both of us to come in speak with her.  During discussion, ex wife stated that -- and I quote -- I was "never around" during our marriage.  When asked if she could identify one positive quality that I possess, she said she could not.  This is the woman who wanted to marry me and initiated two pregnancies.

I don't think I could have been more "around" during our marriage than I was.  I'm reasonably sure that the nons here who deal with pwBPD on a regular basis know just how intensely jealous they can be, how suspicious they can be of every other relationship a person has -- extending even to mere acquaintance.  I was one of the people subjected to this.  I ended friendship after friendship to make this person feel secure that I wouldn't leave her, as her mother did when she was 11.

The reasons she advanced at that moment for the end of the marriage are pure fiction.  Over the years, she has said some things that have seemed to conflict strongly with reality, but these two statements to me represent wholesale revision of our life together.