What to do when you're FIL sexually harasses you

[christine8989]

I was very pleasantly surprised at how my uBPD mother in law was during Mother's Day. All was well on her end.

But, there's a catch. My Father-in-law.

There is also something majorly wrong with him (both of my poor husband's parents aren't O.K.). Anytime I'm around he makes super inappropriate sexually suggestive comments to me. He can take something as nice as giving me a Christmas gift (in this case olive oil) and telling me to "Strip naked, pour the oil over myself and and grab my husband and have sex with him." 

Then during Mother's Day we were watching a movie when out of nowhere he tells me to "Open my bra." This catches me off guard and before I can do or say anything he shoves his hand with a new CD down my shirt and says "There you go."

I told him to "Never touch me like that again if you want to keep your hands."

He did this in front of my husband, brother in law, and mother. His Mother was angry and my husband said politely ":)ad stop." I texted my Mom what happened to figure out what to do. I didn't want to make too big of a scene and ruin Mother's Day. But, I felt really violated and later told my husband he needs to protect me even if it's from his own Dad. That I'm not ok with it. We called his Mom who totally agreed with us. Told me it's never ok for someone to talk or behave that way.

Well anyway cut to today I get a call from my Dad who is PISSED. He told me this man is never allowed in his house again and he never wants to see his face again and if he does he has a lot to say to him. There are many reasons my Dad doesn't like this man, this was just the cherry on the sundae. 

My husband seems to be more mad at me and for talking to my Mom who called my Dad. I'm mad at him for not sticking up for me (anytime) he harasses me. I feel alone and guilty even though I don't think I have anything to feel guilty for. What do we do? How to I talk to my husband? I just don't understand why I even have to argue with him about how wrong this is.

[Naughty Nibbler]

christine8989

I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience with your FIL.  You don't have anything to feel guilty about.  Perhaps if your husband had handled it better, you wouldn't have felt you had to reach out to your mom.

It might have been best to leave immediately and your husband should have been the one to initiate that action.  After FIL sexually harassed you, there was no point to "make nice" for Mother's Day.  The ruined Mother's Day was on FIL, not you.

I'm wondering if your husband feels guilty for his lack of action and has turned it into anger towards you?  He may feel like he is painted in a corner.  If your parent's didn't learn about the situation, his family dynamics would just continue with the usual dysfunction and he would only have to deal with you regarding the situation.  

I think you mentioned in an earlier post that you started therapy?  Maybe you can contact your therapist in advance of your next appt. and bring your husband along.  It sounds like a complex situation and it would help to have a therapist help guide you and your husband.  :)o you think he would go with you?  

[christine8989]

"I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience with your FIL.  You don't have anything to feel guilty about.  Perhaps if your husband had handled it better, you wouldn't have felt you had to reach out to your mom." I agree with this completely.

I'm making an appointment with my therapist tomorrow.

My husband and I just had a big talk. Honestly, dealing with the dysfunction in his family is such a challenge. I don't know how to react to situations and his family members. It's just so hard when it's not something you've ever faced before.

I think you're right about the anger and my parents involvement. You hit the nail on the head. He kept saying it was a "private situation between me, you and my parents." I'm not used to being in family that doesn't talk about their problems, or why they're mad at each other (the Mom is the only one allowed to do that).  I'm used to talking about things and figuring them out.

During our conversation he said  "I just realized that when you're married and you have to choose between your wife and your family you have to choose your wife." Ever since we married I've found navigating his family so hard. They in turn get mad when I don't deal with it the way they do. Even though they have so many more years of practice.

I just don't want things like this to break up the marriage. We've only been together a year. How do you prevent dysfunction from tearing apart your relationship? I know he wouldn't go with me. He's very against therapy and doesn't think there's anything wrong with him.

[Turkish]

Sexual harassment or sexual assault?

Your H grew up with his dad's lewdness. Though it's understandable that he copes by denial or fleeing, you're  his wife. 'A man leaves his mother and father and the two become one flesh" and all that.

An assault on you should be an assault on him. That being said, that's probably the issue. He's dealing with it vis-a-vis you how he's dealt with it. How would your H feel if anyone else did that? Can you SET it and ask him?

I wouldn't minimze this. That was totally unacceptable (I'm biting the words I really want to say).

[christine8989]

How would I go about using SET in this situation?

Honestly, I'm kind of left super confused by his reaction to this whole situation. We just got into a big fight/talk argument about everything. I don't know ever since I've married him I feel so lost around his family. Just confused and not myself.

I just feel myself turning into this different person. I told him over and over I'm not used to this, I'm not used to this dysfunction I don't know how to react. I just thought it wasn't too much to think he would defend my honor in all this. He mostly seems angry that we'll see his family less now.

I don't know this seems like a game changer to me.

[Turkish]

If you never wanted to see FIL again, I wouldn't blame you. Being married to his son, it's complicated. You, however, deserve to be safe. I can try to put myself in your shoes as a woman, but it's harder to put myself in your shoes as a spouse, trying to preserve your marriage. No kids yet? What if you have daughters?

Suport, Empathy, Truth.

"H, I love you and I'm here for you; I'm your wife, committed to you. You love your family, I know that. Your father's behavior towards me, however, was unacceptable, and I won't tolerate a repeat. As your wife, I don't feel safe around him."

What do you think? Anyone else, please chime in.

[Naughty Nibbler]

I agree with everything Turkish said.

I'd be very concerned if you have children or plan to have children.  H would need to buy into the strategy that children can't be alone with either of his parents.   Wouldn't want a daughter alone with FIL and you wouldn't want a son to learn bad behavior from him either. Was FIL drinking or under the influence of something?

I think most people fail to realize that when they marry someone, they marry the whole family (especially if you live close to them).  If you H didn't clue you in, and you weren't exposed to the dysfunction before marriage, you might feel a bit blindsided.  Perhaps you husband was so used to the dysfunction, that it seemed normal to him.

H may feel he doesn't need counseling, but the two of you need to be united in your boundaries and how you will deal with his parents from this point on.  Perhaps if he can gain the understanding that the goal of counseling is for both of you to become a united force to confront the problems with his parents.

If he won't join you in counseling, then you may need to make some decisions as to whether you are fighting a battle alone.   If you don't have children yet, might consider cutting your losses and move on.  life is too short to have a long miserable road ahead of you with the inlaws. 

Forge ahead with your therapy.  Perhaps your husband will come around and join you in a week or two.

Take care of yourself and try to do something nice for yourself to relieve the stress.

[Notwendy]

What would I do?

The short version- I wouldn't have that man in my house nor would I have social contact with him. Now, I know it may be impossible to avoid all contact with him at family events- like weddings- but I would not casually visit. My H would be free to see his parents on his own.

No child of mine would ever be unsupervised with him, possibly not even have any contact if he can't keep his slimy thoughts to himself.

IMHO Your father's reaction was appropriate on hearing someone did that to his daughter. He knows he can't control your choices now that you are grown and married, but he made his choice to not tolerate this man's behavior. I believe he is also showing mature restraint in his choice, because, he knows he would be very angry in the presence of this man.


The long version:  :)ysfunctional families can have poor to no boundaries and your H may have grown up with poor boundaries. They also tend to keep family secrets and see discussing them as betrayals. I think this may be what your H is reacting to. However, someone has to have boundaries when it comes to decency. This was inappropriate and to expect you to tolerate having your boundaries violated like this is not appropriate. However, around people who don't have boundaries, you will need to uphold your own.

I am sorry this situation is shaking your marriage, but I believe that this is the dysfunction of his FOO showing itself and putting you in the position of setting the standards for how you will interact with his parents. Unfortunately, when a child grows up in such a FOO, they tend to minimize it " it isn't so bad" . That would be invalidating you, but keep in mind- your H has had his boundaries invalidated his whole life growing up.

This isn't to excuse him, or his FOO, because he has choices and so do you. It would be unfortunate to be in the situation where he expects you to tolerate this. You do not have to tolerate it. This could be an impass in your marriage or something that the two of you might be able to work out. However, the choice of going along with this and minimizing this to keep the peace in your marriage, I think , would result in distress and resentment on your part. I am sorry this happened now, but in a way it is a blessing that he did this with you- so you could see what he is like, and that you didn't find this out through having a child molested.

[Notwendy]

When a child grows up in a dysfunctional family, they can have an altered sense of what "normal" is. Also, since few families are all bad, and obviously abusive- beating the kids, etc, it can be hard for a child to even recognize the dysfunction in his/her own family.

One thing that intrigued me when I began to investigate the influence of my FOO on my marriage issues was the statement that we choose partners who match us, and we tend to act out our FOO issues in the relationship. This interested me because, I knew that the issues in my FOO with BPD mom were not normal, but my H's family appeared to be perfectly normal- and even he denied having any issues growing up. For many years I assumed that the marital issues we were having were my fault because of the way I was raised. I had personal counseling, my H, didn't believe in counseling nor did he think he needed it.

Then, over time, I was able to see the dysfunction in his FOO, but it was more hidden than in my FOO. As much as I dearly wanted my H to see it too- so he could work in his part of the issues, this was not possible. Thinking he would "see the light" and our marriage issues would be solved was more wishful thinking than reality.

Now, thankfully, I was not dealing with a sexual creeper. Yes, that is your FIL. My in laws are not a danger to my children, so I didn't need boundaries with them over that. I did need them with my mother who could potentially be emotionally abusive to children- but I made the boundaries, not my H.

With my H, I could see how his family manipulated him, literally wore him out getting him to do things for them, feeling he could not do enough. Yet, by trying to intervene- rescue him- from his FOO, I jumped on the drama triangle and he would get mad at me for "disrespecting " his FOO.

The only thing that led to him setting boundaries on his FOO was to just stay out of it and let him get worn out and exhausted enough to start saying no. Eventually he did, but he still doesn't see the issues as I see them.

I think the point I am trying to lead up to is that, it is hard to get someone to see the dysfunction in their own FOO, and to get them to set boundaries. If you do it, it could be that you would end up on the drama triangle.

There are also consequences to setting boundaries in your own family. In general, FOO's exist in a sort of balance and when one member changes the game, the others may react in angry cruel ways. I did set boundaries between my kids and BPD mom. I felt they were not safe with her. Yet, my father got very angry at me when I did this. I was horrified to think he would not stand up for his grandkids, but then, I realized that he didn't protect his own kids from her behavior, how should I expect him to even understand my wanting to protect mine. Since we as kids were well cared for in other ways, adults didn't believe us, told us it was not that bad. But it was bad enough that I didn't want my kids subjected to it.

Yet standing up for my kids resulted in my being cast out in a way by my parents and it was very hurtful.

It is unfortunate that FOOs like this can place members in impossible choices. I am sure your H loves you, but he may also fear breaking the rules in his FOO. Having been told his whole life " don't tell" "it isn't that bad" he may actually be confused by what is going on. I don't like the term gaslighting, but I do know that in my FOO, my parents would act like nothing happened after my mother had a raging episode. On one hand, I knew that something was wrong, yet, my parents told me otherwise.

You know what your FIL did was wrong. This is your boundary. I don't know if your H can defend it or not. But your boundary is your boundary. Sadly, it puts your H in a predicament, but keep in mind, you are not the cause of this, although FOO's like this tend to see the cause in others not themselves. What FIL did is serious- something that could possibly be a deal breaker for your marriage or a turning point for your H to face his FOO. However, that part is up to him. Your part is to uphold the boundary with someone who sexually violated you, and protect any children from that possibility.


And one other thing to keep in mind is that your H's FOO may be obviously dysfunctional, but the two of you match in some way. Finding that out - how your FOO influences you- not to blame them but for your own insight, might be enlightening.

[christine8989]

Thank you everyone for the help. I feel so much better after coming here.

I'm going to talk with my therapist (hopefully today). I knew his family was dysfunctional. It's not hard to see. But, it's just gotten worse since we've been married. Things have been amped up. My H has a half sister who has two young daughters. They are not allowed to be alone with my H's parents. This has more to do with how unsafe it would be to have them watch them. Less to do with the behavior of my FIL. All my h's brother and sister said acknowledge there was emotional and psychical abuse. They all say nothing sexual happened.

I also know my FIL doesn't talk this way to his step-daughter. He does talk and behave this way to waitresses, store workers etc. 

My husband's way of ending the problem was to call his Mom and have her address his father. She totally sided with us and said she hates when he behaves this way and was actually very supportive. My husband said it's better to go this way because now his Mother's wrath of anger will be taken out on him all the time now. Basically they live in a tiny house in the woods and can't escape each other. My husband said this is the best way to deal with this.

I'm just more baffled as to why he was more angry my Father found out than what happened. My H said now since my father knows "We'll never have big family gatherings. We won't be close as families." I don't know why he every thought it was going to be normal. It was never going to be a normal, functional system.

My H said he didn't get mad at his Dad because I didn't appear to be super angry. He said he was going off of my own reactions. But, again I did this to keep my cool because other times I've gotten upset over their families behavior I was told I'm freaking out too much. It's like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

You guys have given me some good insight and talking points to discuss with my therapist. Thank you. I have started to read Walking on Eggshells. Would any of you suggest other reading about dysfunctional families?

[Starting_Over]

I think the advice to bring your husband into therapy is a really good idea. I have brought my husband in with me that way i am not playing a confusing game of telephone with your husband and therapist.

I personally have noticed that my husband has a different approach to handling family drama. I take the abuse for a while get angry and then try and leave, but my husband is too passive to say anything.  I always ended up feeling like he didn't protect me. In reality, I married a man who is the opposite of my father which makes anything involving my father super difficult, but I also don't have my husband triggering me by doing things my father would.

It will probably take a while for your husband to notice the things you are talking about, and to gain the confidence to shut down the behavior. Maybe your therapist can suggest some books for him to read.

[Notwendy]

Your H may not be able to see the dysfunction in his family like you do, because he grew up in it. It is familiar to him. It isn't familiar to you, which helps you see it. However we tend to be comfortable in familiar situations.

One of the most helpful models to me is the drama triangle. This is a common model for interactions in dysfunctional families. Can you see the triangles here?

Your H does not confront your father directly. He tells his mother and she does it. If H were to do it, he would be in Persecutor role. Dad would be Victim. Mom would likely bond with FIL to rescue him.

Your H knows this does not work in his family, so he takes this role. He goes to mom as Victim. Mom steps in as rescuer, then she lets out her wrath ( becomes Persecutor) with FIL. Your H isn't aware of the triangle or the dysfunction, he has grown up with it, and he knows it works for him.

Whenever you step in and are not aware of the way this family interacts,  you shake up the game, cause you don't know the rules, and become the Persecutor. But you can not play this game. If you do this, then you become dysfunctional and enmeshed too. This is not an emotionally healthy solution. What you want is to not be on the triangle at all. However, your H would need to be motivated on his own to make changes in his FOO.

In families, sometimes intolerable behavior is tolerated and hidden. Exposure can lead to shame and a feeling of betrayal. The cardinal rule in our FOO was not to expose any problems. This may be why your H is upset with you for telling your father.

However, this, to me is a main issue: that your H did not get concerned at his father's behavior towards you. And I don't blame your H in the sense that he may not have ever even been allowed to consider being angry at his dad. He grew up tolerating what should not be tolerated and it is all he knew.  He is mad at you for exposing him. At some level, this invalidated you. You did nothing wrong, your FIL creeped on you. Now you're the problem? This isn't unusual. It was like I was being blamed as a child for my mother's behavior, yet, as a child I was not responsible for that. Yet I don't think anyone in my FOO even knew that was not good for a child. I think they just did what they knew to do.

I think a T can help you process some of this and to hold your grounds with FIL. And it doesn't matter that he only is a creeper with some people. This is not appropriate behavior with anyone.

[Sunfl0wer]

I agree with others here who metion taking H to therapy with you.  It would be awesome if T will validate you in front of H and help 'frame' this situation for you two and serve as a sort of reality check for your H.

I'm just more baffled as to why he was more angry my Father found out than what happened. My H said now since my father knows "We'll never have big family gatherings. We won't be close as families." I don't know why he every thought it was going to be normal. It was never going to be a normal, functional system.

My H said he didn't get mad at his Dad because I didn't appear to be super angry. He said he was going off of my own reactions. But, again I did this to keep my cool because other times I've gotten upset over their families behavior I was told I'm freaking out too much. It's like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

This makes me mad!  Again, this is on FIL not you if you guys don't have big family gatherings.  If you value being truthful, and the result is that the truth is causing everyone to be able to set their own boundaries with this boundary-less man, then that is a natural consequence of FIL behaviors vs enabling this crap!  It makes me mad that H is defending this dynamic and you seem to be somewhat of the persecuter!  This is exactly how dynamics that support incest and such work/function.  He is enabling the dysfunction to work... .vs introducing one that would contradict it: honesty and respect of values and boundaries.

(Cross posted, i see many of same was addressed already)

Notwendy:

And it doesn't matter that he only is a creeper with some people. This is not appropriate behavior with anyone.

In a way, it kind of makes it worse... So he is a creeper that is selective about choosing who he is perverted with?  That would make me feel he is a very unsafe person.

[Sunfl0wer]

Just wanted to share similar story... .

I was with a BF at a party with his colleagues.  One of the 'main' hosts gave me a hug hello and grabbed/cupped/held my a$$ for a lingering second.

I did nothing to invite such a greeting.  I was so caught off guard and in shock that I did not respond the way I wished.  I wish I had called him out on it and reacted with appropriate shock and reprimanded him.  Instead I was dumfounded and just confused and continued on.

Later on I asked BF if he saw it and why he didn't defend me and say something.  He apparently also had trouble processing it as it made no sense, therefore it 'had to be meaningless' since that was the only sense that could be made.  He said he didn't think it was a problem because 'Bob' didn't really mean anything by it, that is how he is, it is not like he was going to do anything, etc.

The point is, this is how grooming goes.  A guy(/gal) pushes boundaries sexually and disorients things and sees what he can get away with, mocks others for having a reality where the behavior is not ok.

Anyway, as I got to know him more over time, he certainly was engaging in some odd things and such.

I still cannot understand my BF non reaction other than he was raised to not cause a problem and seem to feel that the person who complains about a problem actually IS the problem.

[Notwendy]

My mother was not much of a danger to my kids when they were little. I didn't leave them unsupervised with her but she was OK with little kids in that situation.

But things changed when they became teens. My mother has poor boundaries. She saw me as a peer and so I heard all kinds of TMI from her about her relationship with my father, including their sex life. She didn't seem to be aware that her teen daughter was not her BFF who could listen to all her problems.

I can tell you that not ever was I sexually abused in the classic sense. My parents didn't lay a hand on me. My father or other males in the family didn't do or say anything inappropriate to me. However, telling a teen daughter this information is a sexual violation.    Also, people who do this often don't know it isn't OK, because it happened to them and I suspect that my mother was sexually abused although I don't have proof. Ironically your FIL may be this way because someone in his family was, but that doesn't make it OK.

So as my kids got older, my mother began to treat them like peers. She wanted them to come be her friends and hang out with her and tell each other personal things. When asking them questions she got too personal about if they liked any one. I knew where this was heading. Not because mom would molest them. but because without boundaries something inappropriate was likely to be said. So I put boundaries down.

This is what my father said to me. " I wish you would stop this so we can be a happy family again". 

No, what he meant was, I wish you would let mother do whatever she wants so she ( and I ) can be happy.

So, your H and his FOO may see you as the problem, rocking the boat here. And they may think FIL did nothing wrong, but one does not have to fully molest a child to violate their boundaries.