tell me again why they don't know how to win somebody over after a wrong doing?

[londons]

yes, why is it they dont have a clue what to say or do to win someone back, to earn trust back, to gain the love again?  all i know is, it works like this-  they misbehave/lie/cheat/accuse/manipulate/live by double standards again and again and again.    we finally stand up for ourselves, they cant handle it, and THEY leave the situation or maybe even the relationship with the attitude that THEY cant handle US!       when i have done wrong, i write a note of apology. i call and say "what was i thinking, please forgive me."    i hold his hands and look into his eyes and say,  "i was wrong".      i act as kindly as i can.   i send flowers.    or all of the above.    this is what is socially acceptable and appropriate.  this knowledge comes naturally to me.   isnt it human nature to know this? why is it so unnatural for the bp individual?    they get angry and say, "you made me do it", or "what did you expect ?"    or walk away entirely.    or find someone new.     if they truly dont know how to apologize and court someone back in,    dont they have a friend or family member to ask,  "he/she is upset with me.  this is what i did.  what can i do to make things better?"    it feels like that is what i am waiting for, but he doesnt get it... .   and he is a true genius, in every other area.     is that the foundation of this horrible disorder?   not knowing how to win somebody over?    what happened to all that initial charm?

[WoundedBibi]

yes, why is it they dont have a clue what to say or do to win someone back, to earn trust back, to gain the love again?  all i know is, it works like this-  they misbehave/lie/cheat/accuse/manipulate/live by double standards again and again and again.    we finally stand up for ourselves, they cant handle it, and THEY leave the situation or maybe even the relationship with the attitude that THEY cant handle US!       when i have done wrong, i write a note of apology. i call and say "what was i thinking, please forgive me."    i hold his hands and look into his eyes and say,  "i was wrong".      i act as kindly as i can.   i send flowers.    or all of the above.    this is what is socially acceptable and appropriate.  this knowledge comes naturally to me.   isnt it human nature to know this? why is it so unnatural for the bp individual?    they get angry and say, "you made me do it", or "what did you expect ?"    or walk away entirely.    or find someone new.     if they truly dont know how to apologize and court someone back in,    dont they have a friend or family member to ask,  "he/she is upset with me.  this is what i did.  what can i do to make things better?"    it feels like that is what i am waiting for, but he doesnt get it... .   and he is a true genius, in every other area.     is that the foundation of this horrible disorder?   not knowing how to win somebody over?    what happened to all that initial charm?

You would first have to acknowledge your wrong doing. And you can't do that. Because there are no wrong doings only wrong people. So if you did something wrong you are wrong. As a person. As in not allowed to exist. And if you allow yourself to feel that you are a waste of space you feel core shame and the intensity of that is so big and overwhelming you literally feel you will are going to die.

[C.Stein]

Remember ... .emotionally immature.   How can one be wrong when there is a good reason/justification for the action?  

My ex could see things she did was wrong and even apologize for the act (usually not the consequence), but there was always an excuse or some justification.  Regardless of what she said, she did not truly believe she had done anything wrong.  If this means revising history, blame, etc... .then so be it.  In this manner shame and guilt can be avoided.  She can continue to believe her actions were not wrong and did no damage as long as I let her sweep it all under the carpet ... .at my expense.  :)oing this was obviously wrong as it enabled her to continue with the hurtful behavior, but I am generally a forgiving person and I don't like conflict (but I definitely won't shy away from it either).  

That said, when I couldn't find a way to get past something she had done without her seeing and accepting full responsibility for her actions (without excuses) and make a concerted effort to fix the damage she had done, I was devalued, replaced and finally thrown away like trash.   She needed me to just let her sweep it all under the rug again and pretend like it never happened.  She needed me to unconditionally forgive her, much like a child needs a parent to unconditionally forgive.   I couldn't because she had busted a major boundary and it undermined our entire relationship for me.   In the end it was easier for her to run away from what she had done, and from me, than to accept responsibility and make an effort to fix it.    

As WB said, when something like this happens, she does not see it as a mistake that can be fixed, she sees it as she is a bad person who was being rejected and abandon, which was not true, but I can understand why she felt that way.   She is incapable of separating the act from the person ... .she hurt me, she screwed up ... .therefore she is a bad person in her mind.  This is something she cannot live with, it is too painful, so she does whatever she needs to avoid those feelings.

[Concerns]

This is my take.

There are differing views and expressions on this subject.

Some will say they feel empathy and are so overwhelmed that they are unable to express outward signs of empathy. Their inner turmoil is so great that their outward expression manifest in anger and all the other inappropriate behaviors associated with BPD.

Others, including me, feel that since this is a spectrum disorder outward manifestations are the result of a lack of empathy.

It can be different.

Whatever the cause, the result is a lack of empathy and inability to relate to another individual that they have injured.

The true origin of the disorder in any given individual is inconsistent. However, there are murmurs of brain abnormalities in sufferers.

I also see an inability to self-reflect. In that

he/she is upset with me.  this is what i did.  what can i do to make things better?

.

The inability to empathize and self-reflect keeps everything moving forward.

they misbehave/lie/cheat/accuse/manipulate/live by double standards again and again and again.

In my relationship with my wife, I've come to view myself as an emotional fuel or energy source. Once that source of fuel is used up then they move onto the next source of fuel. They will make an assessment of your value as a fuel source. If they attempt to recycle then they still view you as a potential fuel source and will attempt to tap that resource until its used up again.

Do not wait for a true apology. You cannot wait for something another person is incapable of giving to you.

[londons]

thank you , stein!  great post!  you explained that beautifully.  i need the continual description of the disorder, as it is a tough one to decipher.  i will keep yours and re read it as necessary.  may i ask what your gal did that was that last straw?   the last boundary destroyed?  thanks again, londons

[C.Stein]

thank you , stein!  great post!  you explained that beautifully.  i need the continual description of the disorder, as it is a tough one to decipher.  i will keep yours and re read it as necessary.  may i ask what your gal did that was that last straw?   the last boundary destroyed?  thanks again, londons

It wasn't the last straw, close, but it could have been fixed.  She engaged in a month long (or more) complex deception that included numerous direct lies.   She pulled off this deception like a pro and it was glaringly obvious this wasn't her first rodeo.  The thing was, she had no good reason to do this.  It was for the most petty, selfish and unfounded reason.

I could have gotten past it but she made it 100 times worse by how she acted and the things she said after she admitted to it (on her own to her credit).  Of course the admission was as selfishly motivated as the deception itself, but that is beside the point.  Even then I could have worked through it with her but she just went on pretending like it never happened, as usual.  She swept the whole issue under the carpet and I let her.   I think once she realized how much she had hurt me and how badly she screwed up  she almost immediately started to devalue me.  

Didn't stop her from doing it again though ... .again for no good reason at all.  That one was a much smaller, very short term deception and I don't think she even realized she was doing it ... .which had even deeper implications.

As a result of this I became very withdrawn, depressed and distant and she ignored it, hoping I would get over it on my own.   I let her do this and it was the wrong thing to do in all respects.  It is one of my biggest regrets, not only in this case but all the others where I allowed her to sweep something she had done under the carpet.  I should have realized that I needed to be the adult and not expect her to step up and do the right thing.   If I had known about BPD then I certainly would have behaved differently and would have adjusted my expectations.  It probably would not have mattered in the long run but it is something I do carry a lot of guilt over and has generated a lot of "what ifs".

Openness and honesty is very important in relationships and I made this very clear to her when we started dating ... .and she whole-heartedly agreed.  It appears her idea of openness and honestly (and fidelity as it turns out) only applied to me not to herself.  

[schwing]

Hi londons,

yes, why is it they dont have a clue what to say or do to win someone back, to earn trust back, to gain the love again? 

My understanding is that once they become familiar with you (i.e., you are no longer a blank slate) then it becomes more difficult for them to idealize you.  Don't they pick us because they believe we would "never" betray or abandon them?  Well, by the time an intimate attachment is formed, I think they become overwhelmed with the feeling that *we* are no longer to be trusted.  Isn't this what happens when we are devalued?

all i know is, it works like this-  they misbehave/lie/cheat/accuse/manipulate/live by double standards again and again and again.  we finally stand up for ourselves, they cant handle it, and THEY leave the situation or maybe even the relationship with the attitude that THEY cant handle US!   

I don't know if you should expect maturity from someone whose emotional development is severely limited.

 when i have done wrong, i write a note of apology. i call and say "what was i thinking, please forgive me."    i hold his hands and look into his eyes and say,  "i was wrong".      i act as kindly as i can.   i send flowers.    or all of the above.    this is what is socially acceptable and appropriate.  this knowledge comes naturally to me.   isnt it human nature to know this?

It is human nature for a human who is emotionally developed.  You would not expect this kind of understanding from a toddler.  You might expect to teach a toddler, and for a toddler to learn... eventually... .with maturity.

why is it so unnatural for the bp individual?   

Because they are disordered.  This is a "real" mental disordered.

they get angry and say, "you made me do it", or "what did you expect ?"    or walk away entirely.    or find someone new.     if they truly dont know how to apologize and court someone back in,    dont they have a friend or family member to ask,  "he/she is upset with me.  this is what i did.  what can i do to make things better?"   

Look at the other forums where family members are dealing with people with this disorder.  You'll find that family members in some ways have it worse off.

it feels like that is what i am waiting for, but he doesnt get it... .   and he is a true genius, in every other area.     is that the foundation of this horrible disorder?   not knowing how to win somebody over?    what happened to all that initial charm?

They know how to "win somebody over."  This is why they are so effective at the initial seduction.  But my understanding is their behavior during the honeymoon phase is more instinct than deliberate behavior.  It's how they've been able to get by most of their lives when it comes to forming attachments with other people.  Ultimately though, I don't believe they form attachments to other people in the same way that non-disordered people do.  And my understanding is that these limitations have everything to do with their disorder.

This is why they are so effective at initiating attachments with every other aspect of interpersonal relationships, they are unstable.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

Remember ... .emotionally immature.   How can one be wrong when there is a good reason/justification for the action?  

My ex could see things she did was wrong and even apologize for the act (usually not the consequence), but there was always an excuse or some justification.  Regardless of what she said, she did not truly believe she had done anything wrong.  If this means revising history, blame, etc... .then so be it.  In this manner shame and guilt can be avoided.  She can continue to believe her actions were not wrong and did no damage as long as I let her sweep it all under the carpet ... .at my expense.  :)oing this was obviously wrong as it enabled her to continue with the hurtful behavior, but I am generally a forgiving person and I don't like conflict (but I definitely won't shy away from it either).  

That said, when I couldn't find a way to get past something she had done without her seeing and accepting full responsibility for her actions (without excuses) and make a concerted effort to fix the damage she had done, I was devalued, replaced and finally thrown away like trash.   She needed me to just let her sweep it all under the rug again and pretend like it never happened.  She needed me to unconditionally forgive her, much like a child needs a parent to unconditionally forgive.   I couldn't because she had busted a major boundary and it undermined our entire relationship for me.   In the end it was easier for her to run away from what she had done, and from me, than to accept responsibility and make an effort to fix it.    

As WB said, when something like this happens, she does not see it as a mistake that can be fixed, she sees it as she is a bad person who was being rejected and abandon, which was not true, but I can understand why she felt that way.   She is incapable of separating the act from the person ... .she hurt me, she screwed up ... .therefore she is a bad person in her mind.  This is something she cannot live with, it is too painful, so she does whatever she needs to avoid those feelings.

Awesome input C.Stein.

This is how my ex exactly behaved. There were times it was almost like she went back in time and I could hear it in her voice. It happened when I had said something during an argument and offended her. I can honestly say my ex thoughts, manners, behavior, laugh and sometimes intelligence was of a 12 year old.

There were times it was almost creepy. As C.Stein said they are too immature and shameful so the only way to get out of that situation is to run away.

[Narkiss]

I saw a study done a while back. One of the conclusions was that they cannot tell when a relationship is in danger of breaking down and cannot/do not know how to repair it once it is. Something about the way their brain develops. Mine is self-aware enough (barely) to know that he has done something to hurt me. He feels awful, can't handle the feeling and disappears. Nothing is ever resolved.

[londons]

"they do not know how to repair it... ."  i cant even imagine how frustrating that must be for the bp individual.  and many times in our 9 years, when we were tying to solve something,  i found myself THINKING, "whadaya 10?"    um, yes.  49 years old physically, 10 years old emotionally.    i am not sure if that emotional weakness was frustrating for him, but i DO know that the voices in his mind telling him he was "worthless and taking up the oxygen that someone else could be using", was extremely painful for him.     he would say often, "i wish i could take my head off and put it on the mantle"   i really thought the 6-10 year old thinking was because it is around that age that he was sexually abused, and that maybe his emotional growth was stunted right then and there.  no further growth in the emotional  department, even tho physically and academically he continued to develop...      thank you so much for all of your well written and informative responses.  you are appreciated !  londons

[Icanteven]

I can honestly say my ex thoughts, manners, behavior, laugh and sometimes intelligence was of a 12 year old.

There were times it was almost creepy. As C.Stein said they are too immature and shameful so the only way to get out of that situation is to run away.

Almost creepy?  Just reading that gave me the chills and a flashback to our last argument.  I've never seen someone disassociate like that before and the look on her face will haunt me for life.  Not sure I'm glad to know it wasn't just us, but my god it was terrifying.

My wife has committed sins great and small throughout our relationship, and several she committed while we were dating resulted in her making the grand gesture to seek my forgiveness after breaking up with her, only to see a complete reversion to form once the crisis had passed.  And it ran the gamut from big to small:  the apologies were garbage and she seemed pained to even admit she had done anything wrong at all.  Most of the time she attempted to make herself the victim.  Oh, I did drugs and slept with an old flame when you were on a business trip?  You overreacted because we weren't husband and wife when that happened, so it's on you that you feel bad and you should feel bad for making me feel bad!  And you didn't find out till years later so why do you care now?

I'm sure we all could have an incredible game of one-upmanship were we to get really personal; unfortunately the stories are very real. 

I don't know if the lack of remorse is a facet of the illness, but by god my spouse was incredible at engaging in crazy making behavior and or just out and out lies and deception only to feel victimized by my insistence on accountability.