Tired of his grumpiness

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My husband was out of state for four days for his nephew's graduation and I had a wonderful "stay-cation". We spoke on the phone everyday and he told me how stressed he felt to be around his FOO. They all were drinking heavily and even he was shocked by how excessive it was. One night he attempted to persuade me to attend his niece's wedding and when I balked, he said he'd "kill himself" if I didn't go.

Now he was being frivolous and being drunk, I shouldn't have taken it seriously, but it's a major trigger for me since my ex-husband threatened me with suicide on many occasions.

Also I was under the mistaken notion that the wedding was going to be in New York City and big cities equal anxiety for me. I told him that I'd have to get off the phone and I hung up. He called me time after time and I didn't answer. I wanted to go to bed and I was really upset thinking about being pressured to attend this wedding. I sent him an email, and didn't read the half dozen emails he had sent, saying I couldn't talk about this now.

The next morning, he was cold and formal on the phone after the extinction burst. We chatted a couple of times that day. However, the following day he was friendly and happy and I was going to pick him up at the airport.

He was OK when I saw him and on our drive home, I asked him about his trip. I felt like an interviewer on TV; I kept up the conversation, getting him to talk, but he showed no interest in asking about me. (I guess that's fairly typical.)

Things totally went south when we got home and he entered his studio. I had bought him lightweight suitcases from Costco and the big box was on the floor inside. I went into the house as he unpacked. I noticed that immediately he put the box outside. I was very surprised when he said nothing about the suitcases because he had been complaining about how heavy his are and worried about weight limits for a trip he will be making to England in a couple of months.

Hours went by with no comment about the suitcases, until late at night he finally said in a surly tone, "What am I supposed to do with this box?"

I said, in a very pleasant tone, "Open it and if you don't like them, I'll return it. Costco has a great return policy." I was really shocked by his rudeness. One of my friends humorously suggested that I smack him with one of the suitcases to demonstrate how lightweight they are. Another friend called him a pompous ass. For a man who scrupulously tries to be polite to acquaintances, I was appalled by his behavior.

Anyway, since then, for a couple of days now, he's been distant and remote. I joked with another friend that he was insulted because I bought them at Costco, when what he probably wanted was Louis Vuitton luggage.

Any ideas about this behavior? I'm acting like everything is normal.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband was out of state for four days for his nephew's graduation and I had a wonderful "stay-cation". We spoke on the phone everyday and he told me how stressed he felt to be around his FOO. They all were drinking heavily and even he was shocked by how excessive it was. One night he attempted to persuade me to attend his niece's wedding and when I balked, he said he'd "kill himself" if I didn't go.

Now he was being frivolous and being drunk, I shouldn't have taken it seriously, but it's a major trigger for me since my ex-husband threatened me with suicide on many occasions.

Also I was under the mistaken notion that the wedding was going to be in New York City and big cities equal anxiety for me. I told him that I'd have to get off the phone and I hung up. He called me time after time and I didn't answer. I wanted to go to bed and I was really upset thinking about being pressured to attend this wedding. I sent him an email, and didn't read the half dozen emails he had sent, saying I couldn't talk about this now.

The next morning, he was cold and formal on the phone after the extinction burst. We chatted a couple of times that day. However, the following day he was friendly and happy and I was going to pick him up at the airport.

He was OK when I saw him and on our drive home, I asked him about his trip. I felt like an interviewer on TV; I kept up the conversation, getting him to talk, but he showed no interest in asking about me. (I guess that's fairly typical.)

Things totally went south when we got home and he entered his studio. I had bought him lightweight suitcases from Costco and the big box was on the floor inside. I went into the house as he unpacked. I noticed that immediately he put the box outside. I was very surprised when he said nothing about the suitcases because he had been complaining about how heavy his are and worried about weight limits for a trip he will be making to England in a couple of months.

Hours went by with no comment about the suitcases, until late at night he finally said in a surly tone, "What am I supposed to do with this box?"

I said, in a very pleasant tone, "Open it and if you don't like them, I'll return it. Costco has a great return policy." I was really shocked by his rudeness. One of my friends humorously suggested that I smack him with one of the suitcases to demonstrate how lightweight they are. Another friend called him a pompous ass. For a man who scrupulously tries to be polite to acquaintances, I was appalled by his behavior.

Anyway, since then, for a couple of days now, he's been distant and remote. I joked with another friend that he was insulted because I bought them at Costco, when what he probably wanted was Louis Vuitton luggage.

Any ideas about this behavior? I'm acting like everything is normal.

[formflier]

Any ideas about this behavior? I'm acting like everything is normal.

Cat Familiar,

I'm thinking that "calling him on the rudeness" but in an open and indirect way, is probably called for.  Perhaps there is a weird thing going on in his head where is he like, "I can't believe she is letting me treat her this way"


So something like "Hey, I experienced that comment as you being rude (or hurtful).    What did you mean by that comment and tone?"

Thoughts?  Ever spoken to him that way?

OBTW, yeah, sounds like he was being an ass after you did something really nice for him.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, FF. It's worth a try and it's a lot gentler than what I used to do before coming here, which was more like "Why are you being such a jerk?" I've learned to seriously tone down my straightforwardness so perhaps I've got some wiggle room again.

On the other hand, he went into the "poor me" syndrome when I didn't answer the phone a few days ago after telling him I was done with the conversation. "How could you be so unkind? You'd never treat any of your animals like this. I'm all alone here and I have no friends. I can't count on you for emotional support. Are you even going to pick me up at the airport?" That's a sample of his emails and phone messages and I think he's still trying to punish me for not talking to him Saturday night.

Thanks for the acknowledgement of his ungratefulness. My friend said it's like "a chapter from the Annals of No Good Deed Goes Unpunished. I am very familiar with this journal!" So wonderful to get validation here and from my friends! Thank you  

[formflier]

Here is something that I have been trying to take onboard.  

I am trying to be more direct AND more kind.  

From the point of view that "directifying" (like that FF word?) the conversations is kinder and more honest.

In this case, your hubby was trying to "indirectly" or in a passive aggressive manner complain.

Instead of saying.  "Honey, I appreciate you looking out for me, but in the future I would like to buy my own luggage", he did what he did.

Or "Thanks for the luggage, I would appreciate it if you would put packages in my inbox from now on"

To which you could say  "There will be no next time, I will be putting my boot up your a$$ the next time you speak to me like that, "



Ok, yeah, don't say that, but I have the idea of what kinda country girl you are.  I know you are smiling right now, and also wondering which pair of boots you would like to be wearing, when you make your "deposit".

Seriously though, give him a chance to say things directly.  Redirect back to him.  Let him know how you experienced the comment (your experience can't be wrong) and that you are looking for clarification.

YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS.

Validate his, but protect yours.  Be unapologetic about protecting your feelings.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Definitely not my Luccheses, rather the horse manure encrusted soles of my regular cowboy boots, Noconas, that I will wear to the rodeo this week. LOL! Thanks for that visual.

Yep. Time for my feelings to get some airplay. His are so almighty important. About time for him to pay attention to mine! And I'm thinking of the Tim McGraw song, Always be Humble and Kind.

[Notwendy]

Definitely not my Luccheses, rather the horse manure encrusted soles of my regular cowboy boots, Noconas


Somehow this could make a great country song.

[formflier]

Somehow this could make a great country song.

So, work with me here,

"Stand by your man, etc etc"  You've got the song in your head now,

"Boot in my man, "

Does it work for you?   

FF

[Notwendy]

I was thinking more about some woeful toon "She took off her Luccheses to kick me cause she likes them better than me"

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, Notwendy and FF. Great laugh! Wonderful way to start the day. 

[byfaith]

let me join in

to the tune "there's a tear in my beer and I'm crying for you dear"

... .there's a boot in my rear and I'm whining to you dear

[formflier]

, there's a boot in my rear and I'm whining to you dear

Nice work!  I mean, that is really top notch. 

[Cat Familiar]

I really appreciate the laughs, the camaraderie, the wisdom and the understanding!

It just dawned on me that I'm getting the "sad sack" version of silent treatment as punishment for not answering the phone last Saturday--and maybe for buying him luggage--he still hasn't opened the box, four days later.

He's a bit more communicative than my mom was when giving me ST, so it didn't occur to me that's what he was doing. I've tried to validate his emotions ("You seem sad/unhappy/fill in the blank... .) but every time he's responded as if I was criticizing him. So, like some here, I'm doing my own thing and enjoying myself while he can, as my dad used to say, "stew in his own juices."

[formflier]

  but every time he's responded as if I was criticizing him. 

Can you give us more detail on this.  You say this, he says this, you respond this way,

I think that pwBPD can sometimes get used to our responses, even healthier ones and purposefully twist them.

I think sometimes shaking things up is a good thing. 

I think that showing interest in him and his emotions, without getting specific, might be in order. 

So, walk up to him, maybe give him a squeeze and massage his shoulders some.  Is there stuff on your mind that you would like to talk about, it seems like you are carrying the weight of the world around, "

See how that opens things up, but doesn't suggest an emotion.  If he chooses to engage, great,

If not, a quick peck his head, "I'm here if you want to chat, " and then let him set his crockpot on whatever temp he wants, go enjoy your day.

I would never again bring up the phone call or lack of answering.  If he wants to talk, listen, ask him why that is important to him,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So I've said, "You look unhappy/sad/whatever" and he's typically said, "Oh sorry (but he's not)" or "I'm always wrong" or "Here's another criticism."

Before I had a chance to shake things up and try a different tactic, he broached the subject and told me how hurt he was and that I'd never apologized for "being in the wrong."

I told him that I had said that I was very sorry that he felt unsupported and then told him how I had felt about being pressured to attend this wedding, his suicide threat, etc. And for me, I had, at that time several days ago, felt like I apologized. Of course he didn't see it that way.

Today he told me that "It's all about you, your feelings. You have no interest in my feelings, you don't care about me." (To myself, I thought about all the hours I've spent here, learning, over 15 days total, not to mention the countless hours I lurked without signing in. And all the books I've read, the therapy sessions I've spent talking about how to deal with his emotions. Yeah, right. I don't care about his emotions.)

He continued, "When I'm wrong, I apologize." (And I thought, yeah, his apologies are meaningless because they're not linked to behavioral change.)

I said that I didn't think I had done anything wrong. At the time, I told him I couldn't have that conversation and I sent him an email confirming that. I respect when he says he doesn't want to talk about something. It seems that there's different rules for him and me then. So he's basically saying that I'm not allowed to say "no."  Of course, he said that I'm always trying to "win" and my interpretation of that is that I merely insist upon telling him my experience and feelings.

"So my feelings don't count then," I said. "It's only about your feelings."

It got fairly uncomfortable and for someone who spent his career as an attorney, it was probably really irritating that I was outarguing him, but that wasn't my intention. I wanted him to look at the situation outside of his perspective. He was so sure I was wrong and I was so sure that I had every right to say I was done with the conversation at that moment in time and not answer his calls. He admitted that he'd been drinking and he didn't remember what he had said, though the fact that I forgot where the wedding was to take place somehow was a different story--that meant that I didn't "listen" to him, even though he had only told me once. I got him to admit that people can forget things.

Yuck. It was ugly, but it seems to have planted some seeds of understanding. Not sure if they will germinate or die before they sprout.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, things seem a bit more pleasant this morning, but I've been fooled before. I "stuck to my guns" (another phrase from my FOO) and I didn't apologize for not talking with him.

I realize that is a big difference for me. I hate conflict that goes on and on and typically I'd try to smooth things over just to be done with it, meaning that I'd sacrifice my self respect and apologize even if I didn't think I was to blame. Lots of times, the BPD in my life would talk me into thinking I was to blame!

So this is a reference experience to me. If he wants to say I'm selfish or self absorbed (G-d forbid! That kind of talk used to make me crumble and admit to all sorts of things that weren't my fault), then I'll probably agree with him, "Yes, and what of it?"

He did accuse me of being forced in the past to admit fault that I didn't think was mine in the past by both my mother and my ex husband. I readily agreed with him three times and in three different ways before he realized that I was agreeing with him, not arguing!

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, and it's been almost six days and he still hasn't opened the box of luggage. 

[Notwendy]

This sort of dragged out sulking is crazy making for me. I also like to have things out- if there is an issue, just discuss it. But I also feel like words- talking- don't work very well. That was a hard thing for me to grasp. But then I found this book. I have mentioned it before on this board- it isn't about BPD, but explains why sometimes talking isn't as effective: How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It by Patricia Love, Steven Stosny


These things don't make sense to me- how a momentary tiff can get dragged out to be something that lasts longer than the original argument. It often came down to something that was interpreted as a major criticism- frustrating to me because I didn't intend it.

But all we can do is apologize for our part in this- the rest of it is up to them. If they choose to drag this out for a week, month, day, it isn't anything we can control. One thing I will bet is that, when he decides it is over, his part is over- erased, his part not to be mentioned it didn't happen.

So, occupy yourself with things you enjoy, your animals, other activities. He may not open the luggage. But you gave it to him to do what he wants with it. He may use it later. For me, that would make me crazy as I don't like to waste money or keep things I won't use. It would be tempting to return it, but maybe after he cools down a bit offer to return them if he doesn't want them.

[formflier]

Ask him directly, but kindly about his plans for the box.  Then drop it.

Ask him same thing about if he wants you to do this kind of thing in the future.


Good grief, I can't believe he is doing this.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This sort of dragged out sulking is crazy making for me. I also like to have things out- if there is an issue, just discuss it. But I also feel like words- talking- don't work very well. That was a hard thing for me to grasp. But then I found this book. I have mentioned it before on this board- it isn't about BPD, but explains why sometimes talking isn't as effective: How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It by Patricia Love, Steven Stosny


These things don't make sense to me- how a momentary tiff can get dragged out to be something that lasts longer than the original argument. It often came down to something that was interpreted as a major criticism- frustrating to me because I didn't intend it.

But all we can do is apologize for our part in this- the rest of it is up to them. If they choose to drag this out for a week, month, day, it isn't anything we can control. One thing I will bet is that, when he decides it is over, his part is over- erased, his part not to be mentioned it didn't happen.

I'm like you, Notwendy, I want to resolve things verbally. And it's not like he doesn't have the skills to do it. Jeez, he was an environmental mediator for several years, bringing together water agencies, environmentalists, loggers, homeowners, etc. Those meetings had to be very contentious.

Thankfully after I stood my ground about not apologizing for not answering the phone, the temperature has gone down and things are back to normal.

Ask him directly, but kindly about his plans for the box.  Then drop it.

Ask him same thing about if he wants you to do this kind of thing in the future.


Good grief... .I can't believe he is doing this.

FF

I'm actually rather enjoying seeing the unopened box. It would be a different thing if it occupied real estate in the house, but since it's cluttering up his studio, I don't care at all. I typically go to Costco about once a month--it's quite a drive, so if it's still there, unopened, by the time I need to go there again, I'll ask his intentions.

And that's a good followup question about asking whether he'd prefer that I didn't buy things for him in the future.

[formflier]

I'll ask his intentions.

And that's a good followup question about asking whether he'd prefer that I didn't buy things for him in the future.

Yep, if it's really not bugging you and there is no practical reason to bring it up, I think you are right to enjoy it and observe.  Learn what you can about him and his traits from this. 

Certainly there is a practical reason to discuss with him prior to next trip.  Focus on saying/asking directly and kindly and let it go after that.

I am really interested in what he says to "do you want to do that in the future".  I'm an acts of service guy, so I love it when people do things for me that make my life easier.  I used to travel a lot, so good luggage is a huge help.

Circling back to previous thing you talked about.

I really think that you should somehow ask your husband or let him know that you liked his behavior on the anniversary and would like more of it.  He may try to back you into saying he is bad or wrong at other times, stictk to your main point.  That day was great!  I would like more of that.

Ask him is there are things you do that he would like to see more of, if he seems to be getting upset, you could ask it in a flirtatious way,

Seriously though, that is a big deal to you and the r/s, he needs to have that behavior given a big thumbs up.

FF

[Notwendy]

And that's a good followup question about asking whether he'd prefer that I didn't buy things for him in the future.

Or you might decide that, if it upsets you that he doesn't use what you buy him, that you don't want to buy gifts. Maybe he has a different kind of love language. FF is alluding to one idea. My H would rather have that, than a suitcase any day.

Yet, I also get that when they are moody and grumpy- that is the last thing we want to do. Furthermore, we don't want to do it in a co-dependent controlling way, or reinforce the grumpiness. I basically taught my H that if he raged or was angry at me, he would get sex- because I knew that was one way to stop it. But what a reinforcement.

Right now, when he is sulking in his own moods, being romantic or attentive to you is probably not something he can consider in the moment. Since I couldn't stand these moods, I would be more attentive to try to get mine out of them. That was reinforcing as well. Eventually, I felt I had to just let him decide, in his own time, when he was done thinking I had done something wrong to him. He's an adult, he has words, and he can talk to me if he chooses.

Attention/affection/sex- seems better when it wasn't about being in these moods.

[Cat Familiar]

I am really interested in what he says to "do you want to do that in the future".  I'm an acts of service guy, so I love it when people do things for me that make my life easier.  

I'm Acts of Service too so it totally befuddled me when that gesture went awry, especially since he had asked for help finding luggage. I tend to jump in and try to help when people say they need something. So today, I actually stopped myself (mostly) from trying to help him. He said he wanted some new linens for the bedroom in his studio and later in the week he was going to the mall (an hour and a quarter away from home). I asked him where he was going to look and I suggested he check out Pottery Barn. In the past, I would have gone online, found a variety of products at several stores and showed him the websites. Not today. He's on his own on this one.

I'm afraid if I said how much I liked the way he was being on our anniversary, that he would take it as criticism. Honestly, the guy can feel criticized if I say I like grapefruit juice when he says he likes OJ.

[Cat Familiar]

Or you might decide that, if it upsets you that he doesn't use what you buy him, that you don't want to buy gifts. Maybe he has a different kind of love language. FF is alluding to one idea. My H would rather have that, than a suitcase any day.

Yet, I also get that when they are moody and grumpy- that is the last thing we want to do. Furthermore, we don't want to do it in a co-dependent controlling way, or reinforce the grumpiness. I basically taught my H that if he raged or was angry at me, he would get sex- because I knew that was one way to stop it. But what a reinforcement.

Right now, when he is sulking in his own moods, being romantic or attentive to you is probably not something he can consider in the moment. Since I couldn't stand these moods, I would be more attentive to try to get mine out of them. That was reinforcing as well. Eventually, I felt I had to just let him decide, in his own time, when he was done thinking I had done something wrong to him. He's an adult, he has words, and he can talk to me if he chooses.

Attention/affection/sex- seems better when it wasn't about being in these moods.

Yes, when he's grumpy, romance is the last thing on my mind. I don't even want to be in the same room with him. I'll spend a lot of time outside rather than interact with him.

Fortunately he's back to being somewhat nice, so that's a lot better than the moodiness.

I would like to re-establish a romantic connection with him, but my interest is so fragile. When he acts like a turd, it takes all my motivation away for quite a while.

[Notwendy]

This is an important observation. I also tend to jump in and solve dilemmas for people. If we needed new linens, I would know where to get them at the best price and jump in and get them. But jumping in and doing these things for people in a way robs them of the job- and doing it better than them can send them the message that they are not capable or didn't do it right.

I have found that even the slightest suggestion can set my mother off and also my H. I recall suggesting he pay for something with a different credit card once ( because of the points) and he snapped at me " I know which one to use!". If my H wanted luggage, and didn't ask me to get it, I would likely sit back and not do it for him, because then, it would be my ideas not his.

Once my H even went to IKEA to get something and I couldn't imagine him wandering around there, because I usually do that kind of thing. Also - I know exactly where everything in IKEA is. It probably took him a long time to do it, because he hadn't been there before, but it was good to step back as he is capable of doing it.

Your H can buy luggage and sheets. He may not do it as well as you- know the best kinds to buy and where, but he can find luggage. Even if he messes up ,gets a kind that isn't as nice- he can do it. When we step in and do it, they can get the message that we don't think they can do it well enough.

[formflier]

I'm afraid if I said how much I liked the way he was being on our anniversary, that he would take it as criticism. Honestly, the guy can feel criticized if I say I like grapefruit juice when he says he likes OJ.

Bad kitty, very bad kitty!   

Are you responsible for his feelings?

Are you responsible for clearly and kindly communicating your feelings and desires to your partner?

FF

PS, Sorry Cat, you pitched me a fastball,    

[Cat Familiar]

I'm afraid if I said how much I liked the way he was being on our anniversary, that he would take it as criticism. Honestly, the guy can feel criticized if I say I like grapefruit juice when he says he likes OJ.

Bad kitty... .very bad kitty!   

Are you responsible for his feelings?

Are you responsible for clearly and kindly communicating your feelings and desires to your partner?

FF

PS... .Sorry Cat... .you pitched me a fastball... .   

Good point, FF. I don't want to WOE, but on the other hand, having observed him over time, I can guess fairly accurately at what might set him off.

I wonder if he even would remember how nice he was being on our anniversary since that was over three weeks ago. That would have been a really good time to reinforce it--right when it happened! Palm meet forehead.     A good opportunity missed again. One of these years, I'll figure it out... .

I guess my next task, beyond validation, is to reinforce all the good behavior that I see.

It's funny, but SET doesn't at all work with him, or maybe I'm too rote and mechanical in my use of it. He has recited it back to me--"You say, 'That must be really rough to feel that way. I'd be upset too... '"  I wonder if he's reading here too.   

[formflier]

  I don't want to WOE, but on the other hand, having observed him over time, I can guess fairly accurately at what might set him off.

Here is the FF challenge. 

Take him a cool drink, give him hug and peck on forehead.  And tell him straight up that you were thinking about your anniversary and realized you didn't properly thank him.  Say thanks, it was wonderful.  Pause for a minute.  Then talk about some sort of supplement you were going to get for your horse or whatever.  (this assumes he just sits there). 

If he does want to talk, focus on praise, don't go negative with him.  Your message is it was wonderful and you would like more of that.

Perhaps ask him what you can do more of.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

  I don't want to WOE, but on the other hand, having observed him over time, I can guess fairly accurately at what might set him off.

Here is the FF challenge. 

Take him a cool drink... .give him hug and peck on forehead.  And tell him straight up that you were thinking about your anniversary and realized you didn't properly thank him.  Say thanks... .it was wonderful.  Pause for a minute.  Then talk about some sort of supplement you were going to get for your horse or whatever.  (this assumes he just sits there). 

If he does want to talk, focus on praise, don't go negative with him.  Your message is it was wonderful and you would like more of that.

Perhaps ask him what you can do more of.

FF

OK. I'll do it. I almost tried this last night, but then he started to get irritable and argumentative, so I thought I'd wait for a more neutral moment. BTW, I didn't at all buy into his crappy mood and ignored the comments, so it soon passed.

[formflier]

Hey, just a thought.

Have you ever thought of him as a horse (please go with me a bit on this one, ). 

There are times that you are able to respect your horses feelings and "signs" and let them be.  Sure, you will look around for something legitimate (have the tossed a shoe, or need a sharp rock picked out, or are a bit lame), in those cases, be extra supportive.

But what do you do when the horse doesn't respect your space?  Perhaps you are trailering (in and out) and the horse decides to pay attention to something else?

And, the FF answer is that you get their attention and have a "talk" about who is in charge.

Once they "get it" you don't keep bringing it up or reminding them that they are bad. 

So, where I am hoping you can go with this is when you have a plan to do something, like tell him of your appreciation, and he is grumpy.  Think about horse whispering. 

When he tries to "crowd you" with his negative emotions, establish your space, your boundary.

Is this helpful?  Or just plain weird,

Cat,

My sense is that you are WOE around him and allowing his feelings to rule and you are pushing yours down, putting them in second place.  Not saying it is all the time, but I think there is an imbalance.  Your stuff matters.  You are NOT responsible for his moods.

You seem to be the kind of person that would come out and say to something "Thanks, I enjoyed that"  Yet because hubby is moody,

Am I off base here?

FF

[byfaith]

My sense is that you are WOE around him and allowing his feelings to rule and you are pushing yours down, putting them in second place.  Not saying it is all the time, but I think there is an imbalance.  Your stuff matters.  You are NOT responsible for his moods.

hey FF what is WOE? I tried looking it up but could not find it. I find myself letting my wife's good or bad moods affecting me. I keep too much in. Right when I think I am ready and able to discuss something, her mood good or bad has sway over whether I bring it up.

This has been a good thread BTW even though I have not made any comments.