Quick Question

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Have any of you been replaced by a friend, rather than a new romantic partner? I have recently been in contact with my ex, several times in the space of a week, and a lot has taken place between us. He was at quite some pains, even whilst very drunk, to hammer home to me that he hasn't had another GF since me, and isn't interested in sleeping around. I'm not quite sure where the land lies between us right now, it's all been a bit of a whirl after months of ST... .however, he referred to the woman (who I know and is lovely), who is his constant drinking buddy and often companion, as his 'best friend here'. She had also just come out of a relationship, in entirely different circumstances, around the time they met and became friends, and now they are thick as thieves. This was around the time he broke up with me the first time. The first time he approached me after that (first) break up, he kissed me in front of all of our respective friends, including her. I  have since become 'friends' with her in my own right, although she is firmly 'in his camp'. Of course, she really has no idea whatsoever who/what he is struggling with in his brain, I think she just sees him as a really, really kind friend, a party animal and a bit of a p*ss head, all of which he is.  I highly doubt he has told HER that his brain is injured/he needs healing etc. But he has spent a lot of time out drinking with her, time he and I would have previously spent doing the same.  

It is very clear that they really are just friends - for several reasons. It's been made clear. I went to his house a few days ago and my things, all of my things, are still there, months after I last went there. Despite him telling me that I am deleted from his life... .that I'm a ghost to him. Obviously, that was rubbish. Obviously, she has plugged a gap in providing close female companionship, without any of the responsibility. I think it's quite telling that his long term female best friend in his own country,  left our island (she used to live here) not much longer after he made friends with this new woman. Perhaps it's more that she is in fact, filling THAT role, not mine.  

Still. The point is, I feel as if I lost my boyfriend and best friend and... .this is seriously the only way I can put it... .it takes me right back to the feeling of being in school when your best friend leaves you to go off to be 'best friends' with someone else, and you're left behind having to watch them play together. And yet, you're the one who knows all their secrets, and know them, and you're left standing alone. Then your best friend comes back to play with you, but they've got the new friend as well now.  It is utterly bizarre - I've even started having dreams about it all. We're in this utterly weird situation now where he re-engaged with me , at least on some levels, but has made it very uncomfortable, almost impossible, for the two of us women to talk.  I am sure she doesn't know what has happened between me and him in the last fortnight.

He is currently away on his annual holiday home, and you can bet your bottom dollar that he is in contact with her... .total lightweight stuff, I am sure, and of course, it distracts from the need to face up to himself and talk to me. On the day he left he said he'd see me when he gets back... .but that 'maybe' he'll message me. So, still playing hardball.

It's a totally weird scenario, and not a comfortable one. I genuinely feel as if I would be playing 2nd fiddle in his affections to a woman he befriended between the times he was with me.  But he has made it impossible to be in my life again, in any guise, unless he grows the balls to tell his friends, including her, that he is fact now talking to me and has seen me several times. He has obviously told them for months what a terrible person I am, how dead to him, etc. And yet, he didn't seem to care who saw us talking in the last couple of weeks, and trust me this town is SMALL so I am sure we were seen.  

So who knows... .just throwing the question out there really.

I have posted this elsewhere, but I think my ex shows traits of BPD, rather than every single facet of the illness. It seems to me that a lot of sweeping statements are made... .'they all do this' 'that's text book'... .but I'm not so convinced that it IS all textbook. For sure there are many many reoccurring themes we have all been made party to. But as for the overlapping/instant replacement thing, (as well as others) it doesn't seem to have applied in this instance.

Well, it does. Except that she really is just a friend.

Anyone else had this happen?

[Stripey77]

Have any of you been replaced by a friend, rather than a new romantic partner? I have recently been in contact with my ex, several times in the space of a week, and a lot has taken place between us. He was at quite some pains, even whilst very drunk, to hammer home to me that he hasn't had another GF since me, and isn't interested in sleeping around. I'm not quite sure where the land lies between us right now, it's all been a bit of a whirl after months of ST... .however, he referred to the woman (who I know and is lovely), who is his constant drinking buddy and often companion, as his 'best friend here'. She had also just come out of a relationship, in entirely different circumstances, around the time they met and became friends, and now they are thick as thieves. This was around the time he broke up with me the first time. The first time he approached me after that (first) break up, he kissed me in front of all of our respective friends, including her. I  have since become 'friends' with her in my own right, although she is firmly 'in his camp'. Of course, she really has no idea whatsoever who/what he is struggling with in his brain, I think she just sees him as a really, really kind friend, a party animal and a bit of a p*ss head, all of which he is.  I highly doubt he has told HER that his brain is injured/he needs healing etc. But he has spent a lot of time out drinking with her, time he and I would have previously spent doing the same.  

It is very clear that they really are just friends - for several reasons. It's been made clear. I went to his house a few days ago and my things, all of my things, are still there, months after I last went there. Despite him telling me that I am deleted from his life... .that I'm a ghost to him. Obviously, that was rubbish. Obviously, she has plugged a gap in providing close female companionship, without any of the responsibility. I think it's quite telling that his long term female best friend in his own country,  left our island (she used to live here) not much longer after he made friends with this new woman. Perhaps it's more that she is in fact, filling THAT role, not mine.  

Still. The point is, I feel as if I lost my boyfriend and best friend and... .this is seriously the only way I can put it... .it takes me right back to the feeling of being in school when your best friend leaves you to go off to be 'best friends' with someone else, and you're left behind having to watch them play together. And yet, you're the one who knows all their secrets, and know them, and you're left standing alone. Then your best friend comes back to play with you, but they've got the new friend as well now.  It is utterly bizarre - I've even started having dreams about it all. We're in this utterly weird situation now where he re-engaged with me , at least on some levels, but has made it very uncomfortable, almost impossible, for the two of us women to talk.  I am sure she doesn't know what has happened between me and him in the last fortnight.

He is currently away on his annual holiday home, and you can bet your bottom dollar that he is in contact with her... .total lightweight stuff, I am sure, and of course, it distracts from the need to face up to himself and talk to me. On the day he left he said he'd see me when he gets back... .but that 'maybe' he'll message me. So, still playing hardball.

It's a totally weird scenario, and not a comfortable one. I genuinely feel as if I would be playing 2nd fiddle in his affections to a woman he befriended between the times he was with me.  But he has made it impossible to be in my life again, in any guise, unless he grows the balls to tell his friends, including her, that he is fact now talking to me and has seen me several times. He has obviously told them for months what a terrible person I am, how dead to him, etc. And yet, he didn't seem to care who saw us talking in the last couple of weeks, and trust me this town is SMALL so I am sure we were seen.  

So who knows... .just throwing the question out there really.

I have posted this elsewhere, but I think my ex shows traits of BPD, rather than every single facet of the illness. It seems to me that a lot of sweeping statements are made... .'they all do this' 'that's text book'... .but I'm not so convinced that it IS all textbook. For sure there are many many reoccurring themes we have all been made party to. But as for the overlapping/instant replacement thing, (as well as others) it doesn't seem to have applied in this instance.

Well, it does. Except that she really is just a friend.

Anyone else had this happen?

[Stripey77]

... .oh and before you ask, yes, I am jealous. Of course I bloody am. She's spending time with him that I would have spent with him. Who the hell wants another man/woman in the affection of the person they love, even if they are just a friend?

There is no problem on my part with her, she is lovely.  And oblivious.

[lbjnltx]

What type of relationship are you wanting to have with your ex in the future?  Just friends?

lbj

[Rayban]

@Stripey77


Keep in mind this is just my opinion. The first thing that occurred to me reading your post is Triangulation. He gets extra supply from making you jealous, and making himself to be more desirable. As for the other woman, I would venture to guess that he has slept with her. It's highly unlikely that with all the drinking going on that they haven't been intimate. Maybe she doesn't mind them being just friends with benefits as it might suit her current needs.

Speaking from past experience, I would be careful of an eventual discard. I base it on the fact that he has begun to re-engage you, and a new person is in the decor. In my case it was her initiating contact, being nice and creating hope, all the while a new person has entered the scene, and he seems to have no problem parading this. Just as I was getting excited at the idea of getting back together, she discarded me and assumed a relationship with the person she made sure I knew was spending time with her.

[Stripey77]

Hi Rayban;

Thanks for this, but I have to politely disagree. I have spent the last few months observing this, and I of COURSE braced myself expecting to see them out together, hand in hand, as he and I were around town. Of course I tortured myself thinking that they must be together, that by now they must have slept together. That I would hear about 'the two of them'. No such thing has happened.  When I talked to her around Xmas, it was HER who approached me and told me how much he'd done for her, she wasn't sure if he and I were together at the time, but how lovely I was and why wasn't he with me?  She also said, that when she'd seen he and I in the room together (the night he kissed me) she could see  the way he looks at me and that I obviously meant something very special to him.  

I have also seen them out on many a night out, including over the Xmas period, and she has almost without exception left and gone home alone, a lot earlier than him. I have seen them out individually without each other as well. When he and I were together, we spent every weekend, and every Sat night together.

I should also reiterate... .I had conversations on 2 separate nights out with him in the last fortnight. He was considerably more drunk the second time and yet consistently said the same things... .that he hasn't had a GF since me. That he's taken a break from sex because he doesn't want to sleep 'with this girl and that girl'. That he wants to have sex with someone lovely that he has feelings for. I am not even at all sure they are each other's physical type. And, most telling of all, he wanted me to see his house and when I got there, there were all my things from 5 months ago. He didn't know he was going to see me that night, so this was in no way arranged.  I doubt, as drunk as he was, he would have been able to make up such an elaborate lie and reiterate it consistently when even more drunk a week later.  

What man, ill or not, would tell the ex GF he so callously discarded, that he hadn't had another GF? He was also telling me in this conversation how angry he is with me and hates me. Wouldn't that have been an easy way to hurt me - to say that he'd been having lots of 'fun'? I honestly believe he was telling me the truth.  I am not discounting entirely the possibility that anything happened between them, but I certainly don't think they have an ongoing 'arrangement'.

Most importantly of all, I truly truly don't believe that my ex wants 'FWB'. It's not his style, from what I know of him. He clearly wants to be loved, and is incredibly demonstrative in his affections, physically tactile and so on. He wants the romance. I've not once seen them holding hands or looking like more than friends. I genuinely do believe that he has a need, for some reason, to have close, very close, female companionship in his life. Maybe it's an outwards manifestation of what's at the root of his (suspected) PD.  

As for making me jealous, that's a bit difficult when a) I've been deleted and blocked on everything so can see nothing on his pages and  b) I gave no reaction whatsoever. I think it's quite the reverse, I don't think he was thinking of me - at all. Or at least, very little. I think she filled the void left by his friend leaving, and him abandoning me. All - well nearly all - of the fun of a GF without any of the responsibility.  

Something else strange; I noticed in our conversations that he wanted to tell me and show me things he has done whilst we've been apart. Telling me how he's been single since. Showing me photos. But he has not wanted to know anything about what I've been up to all this time. He told me I know too many people in town... .he's on a back foot. If I had to hazard a guess, it's almost as if he thinks that I would have had someone else in this time, and he doesn't want to know about it.

He is, as I've said elsewhere, in turmoil.

I do agree with you regarding the triangulation, but I don't think his intention was to elicit a reaction from me at all, but rather to mitigate his own feelings of emptiness.

[Stripey77]

Oh and one more thing... .

if he had her in his life in 'that' way,  then he really would have had no incentive at all to break his silence after all this time, and approach me, talk to me, kiss me... .he wouldn't need me at all.  Because he'd have her.

He could have just left me as I was, in total pain and and cut out from his life. But he's effectively 'made friends' with me again.

Sigh... .

[Stripey77]

LBJ-

I did write a reply to you, but annoyingly it's disappeared.

In a nutshell, I said that hand on heart, of course I want to be with him. I never, ever wanted to break up. I've been here as a constant as he has flounced in and out of my life, twice.  Do I want the melodrama? No.  But I have been in such deep pain, for all of these months, even if nothing else happens between us, I am now in a far, far happier position than I have been for 6 months. A huge weight has lifted. He has shown now, without doubt, that even when telling me HATES me, that I am dead to him, even after looking straight through me... .he cant stay away. If 'friends' is all I get, then that's a lot lot better than the situation I was in 2 weeks ago. Even if it does mean he has a 'new best friend' and however much that hurts, being on friendly terms is 100 times better than being acrimonious. Not that I think he can view me as just a friend... .

I do wonder what on earth will happen if/when I finally give up and try to find someone else. If he doesn't want to be with me then that's what I'll have to do. My friends here who have all seen him in action with me, have unanimously agreed that it will not be pretty.

  I don't really think that's the important bit though.  I really was just wondering, rather than talking about future possibilities, whether anyone else had experienced this scenario.

[HurtinNW]

My ex has a harem of adoring female friends, nearly all platonic. It's narcissistic supply. It keeps him from having to confront his own behavior.

Think about it. Your ex is out drinking, partying, and spending a lot of time with this lady. What times does he have to work on his issues? Zero.

As another poster mentioned, this is also triangulation. He is enlisting her to validate him, either as the tragic victim or woe-lovesick poor me or whatever his persona is right now. Then he tells you all about her. Not surprisingly, you are jealous. Of course you are. She gets his attention and affection, even if there isn't sex involved. He comes out with having TWO women all caught up in his baloney. One is you, having been caught with the neat line and hook of jealousy.

I'm familiar with this because my ex does it constantly. Every break up he calls his harem of friends, paints himself as the victim, and then would report back to me how much they supported him. It's a manipulation, cruel and most of all, extremely immature. I would often reengage because of these antics. Now I see them for what they are.

Try to step back a bit. Is this guy really your ideal of a romantic, trustworthy, respecting and loving partner?

[lbjnltx]

I understand, my questions are to help determine which board (and the coinciding Lessons) would be most helpful to you.  If your goal is to reunite then the perspectives of the Saving Board members would be beneficial to you as well as the Lessons there.

If you don't want to reunite with your ex and need to emotionally detach then the Detaching board is a good fit... .at least for now.  The Improving Board would be a good place to work on skills to improve your friendship with him once your emotional attachment is dealt with or if you get back together as a couple.

Since you do want to reunite if possible it would be beneficial to read and post on the Saving a Relationship Board.  What do you think?

lbj

[Stripey77]

Hi LBJ... .point taken, thank you.

Right now, I don't know the answers to any of it. I know I am in no way 'over' him, although the events of the last fortnight have made me so much better, I almost feel that now I could move on, if that's what I have to do (i.e. if he doesn't want us to be together) and would have to accept it. It was the animosity and ST, the being treated as if I were invisible, that was causing me so much distress,  as well as the break up itself. Regardless of what happens going forward, I don't think we will ever be in such a dark place again. I know I played a part in what unfolded and I do understand some of his subsequent actions, although I don't intend to beaten around the head about it ad infinitum as the price to pay for his company.  It's obviously traumatised him because he brought the same transgression (of mine) up over and over again in these late night random conversations. He has seemingly forgotten that he had already let me go, before I did something so awful he had to delete me from his life. That said, if I had to make an educated guess, I think what I've been observing is someone who wants to forgive me but is fighting with himself, because he can't stay angry with me but thinks he should. Hence the turmoil. I also know, and told him, that he has met his match in me, and I think it's a first. The ball is totally in his court at the moment, I saw him on his last morning here, when he told me he'd see me when he gets back... .which is positive. And then immediately told me that 'maybe' he'd message me. A sad contrast to this time last year when he was away and in constant contact, but a far happier place to be than recent months.

So it's hard to say where I should be right now. So much has happened, all of a sudden... .he is insisting 'we don't work' together whilst being unable to take his eyes or hands off me, and telling me how connected we are on every level. Which is true. The truth is, he is terrified, probably because we do work together so well. He doesn't even need to have a PD to be doing this - that part just seems like good old commitment phobia to me! He is scared. All  I can do is sit tight and watch this space... .for now.

Hurtin': of course, on paper, I don't want him. My friends and family have watched me go through devastating hurt... .but, the heart wants what it wants. He genuinely does have a loving and kind half to his persona, and I think it would be wrong for us all to assume that ALL acts of kindness/love by these people are a front or a trick of some kind. I think much of it is very real, I am just bewildered as to why he needs to bestow all of that on another woman, and why that process started at almost the exact same time he sought me out for a reconciliation after leaving me the first time! Why go to all that effort to have me back and then invest so much care into someone else at the same time?

Thank you for confirming what I already knew, that it is quite possible that such a friendship can be exactly that -just a friendship, however 'special' it is still not a romantic one.

I totally agree with you that it is about having fun with zero requirement to take a long look at himself. That would frighten the hell out of him.

I'm not so sure about the narcissistic part where he is concerned. A friend of mine who works closely with people with PD's commented to me almost immediately on hearing my story that it is clear as day, my ex feels unworthy. He has told me numerous times since breaking up/reappearing the last few months, that he doesn't deserve me... .that I should forget him and hate him... .I agree with her. Someone, somewhere, has taught him that he is not worthy of this kind of love.

He has never told me anything about her support or what they've done together. Much of it I've gleaned through her social media - not that I look anymore. He has never 'rubbed my face in it', not once. I genuinely believe, she is a 'best' friend to him. As I said, he has lost his old old best female friend, as she went home. I really don't think he's tried to make me jealous, I think that would suggest far too much premeditation. Just that he was trying to do something to fill the void. But thank you for your take on things, I certainly think some of it rings true.

Friends, as a whole, are very important to my ex., men and women.  He has more close male friends than female, it seems. He referred once to them as 'his brothers' in the absence of any actual siblings.  It has often struck me as strange that someone from a Catholic family, and born to devout Catholic parents, is an only child... .and I wonder to this day if this is at the root of it all. Maybe there were siblings, but now there are not... impossible to say.

[HurtinNW]

Stripey, I agree with much of what you say. I think it is mistaken to assume these folk set out to play tricks or be mean. I don't believe my ex is in any aware that what he is doing is manipulative and cruel. A hallmark of any PD is that the person is unable to reflect on themselves and their behavior. As someone else here said, they are accountability disorders.

The kindness and love my ex showed me was real. It was very, truly real. And so was his rage, his cruelty, his silent treatments, and his break ups with me. All are real. They are the real emotions and behaviors of a person who has little control over their actions, does not reflect or take true accountability, and so veers from idealizing one moment to raging or discarding the next. His feelings of love and anger towards me were real.But my ex lacks other real feelings, such as loyalty, dedication, and responsibility towards self and others.

I do want to caution you not to mistake his lack of self worth with remorse or the ability to change. I made that mistake for four years. My ex, at heart, believes he is worthless, unloveable, and a failure. That's his fear. He lashes out, rejects others, is hyper critical and loathing because of it. Many people with PD's have a lack of sense of self or inner feelings of self-loathing and emptiness. They are also unable to own it and with clarity work on it to change. That's part of the push-pull of their behavior. They want you, it is lovely and warm and delicious. You start getting close and they lash out, and it is ugly and mean and cold. They want you again, and it is lovely and warm and delicious. You start getting close again and... .rinse and repeat.

That is not to say that people cannot make relationships. The Improving Board is a great place to learn more about the tools to try, and how to understand your person with PD.

And yes, my ex also has a lot of friends and puts huge stock in them. Quite honestly, my cares cares much more about what other people think about him than how any of us feel. Especially needs and wants of others. I have seen him express more concern over the death of a celebrity than the feelings of myself and my kids. I believe in many cases, people with PD struggle with any intimacy or connection, and will do anything to keep it at bay.

Take care, you are doing great at verbalizing your thoughts and feelings and being so honest with yourself!

[Stripey77]

Thanks Hurtin, I think I'm very much on the same page as you with a lot of things. I totally accept that the love, and the melodrama, are both real. I was never victim of any 'rage', more like a cutting off when I displeased him. He has never EVER raised his voice or shouted/verbally abused me.  Some of the melodrama and over the top words and actions, I also put down to his culture, as he comes from one renowned for the passionate way people express themselves. It did occur to me that he just loves a bit of drama, and this is something many people actually said to me something along the lines of  "oh those guys (from that country) are hot heads!"  I'm not excusing it, this is just an observation, although I am sure the see-saw behaviour I've seen is far more to do with the problems in his head.

Don't worry, I am not mistaking any of his behaviour for remorse, not at all.  I posted a while ago about this on a thread about not being able to take responsibility or say sorry - in my case, he has said sorry on occasion, but would just as easily tell me that if I was hurt over something he had done (for example) then that was my problem. He apologised just as readily as the Fonz. But one could just as easily again put this down to male pride, machismo, his culture... .it may at least play a part. He could just be pig headed anyway!

What I will say, and I have posted this in several threads now, is that of course the BPD is only suspected (on my part) having been the recipient of this behaviour, and of course, not proven/diagnosed. I am quite sure he is displaying traits, several in fact, of a PD. But he is highly intelligent and articulate. In his more lucid and honest moments he has opened up to me enough to express that he knows there is something wrong with him. Reading these boards, it seems to me that many of these people are totally unable to recognise that they have a problem, and therefore, wash their hands of any kind of responsibility. Without awareness that there is a problem, of course assuming responsibility is impossible.

I know that he knows there is something 'wrong', not least of all because my ex/whatever he is right now has tried to tell me on several occasions in the last 6 months. Not only in a series of texts where he told me that his brain is injured and that everything about him is wrong - (which he later tried to pass off as a joke, said he couldn't explain it, then went AWOL on me and then dumped me again). But most heartbreaking of all, just 2 weeks ago when he spoke to me for the first time in months, he suddenly said how very happy I had made him when we got together, that he loved every moment with me, but then the 'darkness' took over and (his words) "The problem is in my brain. There's no guilt for you, you should know that". By guilt, he means fault.  I think he is almost grappling with the monster. This is different to the other people on here, many of whom don't even seem to know that there is a monster.

Because of that, not that I am giving myself false hope, but I do know that there is a loving and kind man under this callous, selfish little boy I have also been shown. Of course I want that man back, and of course  I know how very much hard work and patience and potential heartbreak that could mean. Anyway, this might all be academic, because he may come back from his trip and stick rigidly to his guns that 'we don't work'. In which case, he is going to have to let me move on and find someone new, and as I said earlier, I seriously don't think he'll be able to handle that. It's all very strange right now, I spent the last 2 nights with him before he went away, and yet have heard nothing since he left. Although he said he will see me when he gets back. We'll see. If he doesn't get in touch with me, maybe I won't want to see him when he gets back. I have told him he is the love of my life. He knows I'm still here. We have both said that we love each other and are still very attracted. But I can't sit here waiting here forever whilst he messages anyone and everyone except me.

Quite frankly, the sticking point may well be the corner he's put us in now. Slagging me off to his friends means that re-engaging with me would mean a climb down of epic proportions. I don't know if he can do it, even if he wants to, and because he blames me for the events that led up to us not speaking at all, when he started talking to me 2 weeks ago, he kept calling me 'stupid girl' as in, I had ruined everything/why did I have to do what I did and make it so impossible. This was whilst kissing me, holding me, spilling his heart to me. He is clearly hurt, confused and angry about those events (and I do accept my role in that) and therefore in turmoil big time. When he sees me... .he wants me. Not enough to commit to me - and there's the problem because I told him I want a partner. He says that's not him -  and yet he cannot stay away from me, we know that for a undeniable fact now.

I totally know what you mean about him putting more stock into how his friends feel... .that's how I feel about this lady. How come she became so important to him and he left me at home in total limbo?  I often thought that he had intended her to be his next GF but that it didn't work out, but perhaps I am wrong, perhaps he really does just feel the constant female best friend close at hand.

One other thought that has very often crossed my mind - do you think that investing so much in friends is to counteract the crappy feelings that come with what has been done to (for example) us?  As I say, my ex is well aware there's a problem in him. He has tried to push me away and make him hate him, he's cut me off, abandoned me, but also told me to forget him and hate him because he doesn't deserve me/that it's complicated... .etc. The first time I heard it, I was floored, but of course now I know what he was talking about. He is almost trying to do me a favour, I think. My friend who works in mental health with PDs, told me that every single thing he was doing was really a test to see how much I actually loved him and what I would actually stick around for.   I agree, but the point is, in his more lucid and honest moments, he doesn't just KNOW what he's done to me - he articulates it. The first time he came back to me he actually said he couldn't accept a present I'd given him as he didn't deserve it because of the way he'd treated me. His words.  That means that he must be constantly living with the knowledge of the way he's treated me (and others)  I have no doubt that this awareness, and the dark feelings, is what the huge drinking habit is supposed to medicate.  

Meeting someone new is a blank canvas, a totally fresh person who hasn't seen the 'other' face because the mask hasn't slipped. With us, the romantic partners, by God we've seen that mask slip. A shiny new friend especially, is not going to see that yet, if ever. As I said, I highly doubt that he's sat drinking beer after beer with her whilst all the while telling her that a darkness is in his head. No way. I found out, when she talked to me that night, that he had actually been running her to hospital after she broke her leg, doing errands for her, and I am not kidding you, sleeping in her living room so he could be on hand to help her whilst she was in plaster.  Imagine how I felt on hearing all of this. He never ever intended me to find this out, so believe me, it wasn't an attempt to make me jealous. But this was all at the same time he had just re engaged with me. He then went silent on me (before coming back 3 weeks later.) In that time, his new friend had had her accident and was obviously very grateful for this kindness from an almost stranger. The duplicity is breathtaking. But he only ever acted as her friend, nothing more. Personally I think it gave him a chance to act as a KISA and that in turn made him feel good about himself, wanted, and have someone adore him. I am utterly convinced that this was to counteract the dark/unwelcome feelings he had about me, and ultimately, what he had done to me. I was put in a box and compartmentalised whilst he basked in 'warm and fuzzy' feelings about himself looking after his new friend. Do you think this could ring true for your ex and his friends?

With her in his life, and without a new man of her own, I just don't see how there is any chance for me to be with him again. Of course I am jealous, however without foundation that may seem because she's not his lover.  But I could be wrong... .after all, it was me in his arms those last few nights, not her, and anyone could have seen us that night or the next morning. Ultimately, he does what he wants. If they had wanted that with one another it would have happened months ago. I just feel as though I've lost him to a 'surrogate' GF, and that might just be for ME the thing I can't overlook, and will actually make me throw in the towel if wants to see me when he gets back. I don't want to share, even with a friend.

[Stripey77]

Stripey, I agree with much of what you say. I think it is mistaken to assume these folk set out to play tricks or be mean. I don't believe my ex is in any aware that what he is doing is manipulative and cruel. A hallmark of any PD is that the person is unable to reflect on themselves and their behavior. As someone else here said, they are accountability disorders.


That's just the point... .my ex is very aware something is wrong. He has referred to himself as a 'a bit of a pig' to me in the past, has described himself as rotten to the bone, and just last week, told me that he's a rotten ass. I genuinely feel sorry for him, for both of us. I am not excusing anything or minimising his actions, I am simply saying that I think he really is trying to fight the monster within, he is aware, but of course, the monster sometimes wins the day.

This is why I believe he is showing traits rather than the disorder in all its glory, if that makes any sense at all.

[HurtinNW]

My ex has also, at times, said something is wrong with him. However, he says it in this plaintive, tell-me-I-am-wrong voice, and when he is collapsed into narcissistic self-pity. It isn't a real accountability. Real accountability is recognizing our behaviors can be changed, owning the wrong behaviors, and doing something about it.

My ex has told people he thinks he has a character flaw, that he is a failure, and so forth. Then he will switch on a dime and blame others, me especially. I don't think he has the capable to really face whatever is wrong with him. His self-effacement is as much the drama as his attacks on others. In both cases (self-castigating or castigating others) he is not doing anything constructive to really understand why he behaves the way he does, and what he can do to change.

[Stripey77]

Hurtin ' -that's interesting. Mine has far from been self pitying when he's said such things, it's been delivered in almost 'save yourself' manner. He certainly hasn't asked me to tell him he's wrong. In fact, when he said this 2 weeks ago, I said to him, "I know, and I still love you in spite of it". To me, it's so refreshing to have it aired and have it out there, and tackle it head on. I'm not saying that it means he's going to do something about it - the question I would like to ask him, should the opportunity arise again, is whether he has a name for this 'darkness' in his head and if he knows what it is. He told me months ago that he can't even explain it to himself, let alone to me. Then he changed the conversation, went AWOL on me the next day, then dumped me because he knew how much I loved him. After texting me that maybe I could help him to heal and that he was so glad to have me there.

At no point has he been self pitying or whiny; if anything, he has been quite self critical. He has of course, behaved like an utter b*stard to me and when he talked to me for the first time 2 weeks ago, hurling all the abuse and hurt at me about my transgression, I told him to his face what I thought of him.  As I say I also think there is a good dose of pure and simple commitment phobia woven into all of this with him, and the fact that we did connect so well has frightened the life out of him. He seems to have fast forwarded in his brain to marriage, babies etc. and because he doesn't want to grow up/settle down yet (sadly, like so so many men these days)  he has run away.  Add to that a suspected PD and you have a lovely mix going on. But I am sure the love was genuine, as were you. The attraction is still very much alive.

As I say, I really do feel so very sorry for us, and I am bitter because this feels like an utter waste. In essence, the friendships with other women are really a red herring... .a distraction from a real relationship.  

The whole thing sucks.

[WoundedBibi]

Yes, the whole situation utterly sucks.

I am glad you feel better but I'm very afraid you will get hurt again.

BPD isn't just BPD if someone displays all 9 traits. Five is enough to be diagnosed as having BPD.

So your ex might not have been aggressive towards you or be clingy or cut himself or threaten suicide but that doesn't mean he doesn't have BPD.

And what if he would be able to put what ails him into words? What if he at some point finds information on BPD and realizes that that is what is wrong? Knowing it doesn't solve it.

As you said you want a partner. Someone to build a life with. Someone with whom you have mutual trust and care and support. He cares. But does he and can he support? Does he trust you and can you trust him?

Can he cope when you inadvertently hurt him (and you will because this happens in relationships) without the need to run off to his best female friend or get completely plastered?

Or calling you a stupid girl?

He said he can't be the partner you want. And I think he is being honest. He is in no way as mature as you are and he knows it.

You also say if he can't or won't commit and be the partner you are looking for he needs to set you free. But IMHO he is not the one who needs to set you free. You are.

It is heart wrenching to love someone and know they love you but still know it can't work. Sometimes love is not enough...

[Stripey77]

Bibi,

That is all very true. But we are not back together. He is currently away and who knows what will happen when he gets back. I am absolutely sure we will NEVER be in such a dark place as we have these last 6 months, to borrow a horrible over-used phrase 'lessons have been learned' on both sides, I am sure. Whether as friends, acquaintances, or whatever, if the spell has been broken when I seriously was starting to think I had an enemy for life, it's just proven to me what I have suspected all along deep down (although I was losing confidence the more time went on) ... .that he cannot ignore me forever. I thought this was the so called final 'discard' but it appears not.

Not for 1 second am I saying everything is hunky dory, or that it's all ok now we've spoken, or that we have a future now that he's articulated a problem in his head. And I agree with you, I DO think he has BPD. I am just saying that, compared to some of the stories on here, it has manifested itself in him in a relatively light way. Emotionally dysregulating, yes, and it's been nothing short of horrific. But in  reading many of these threads on here, it seems the horror has manifested itself in others emotionally, intellectually, and physically... .I think I got off relatively lightly. You and I have discussed this, and my ex's awareness that something is wrong. I don't think him knowing what the beast within is would help, no, what's in a name? He'd have to want help, I know that.

As I say, I take my part in the events that led up to us being totally isolated from one another all this time. The pain of being just minutes from his house and yet 1000 miles away emotionally is not something I ever wish to repeat. It's very clear to me from things he has said, that he put all of this in a box and on a shelf to cope with it all these months, hence him seeing so ok with it all. I don't suppose he's really been ok, deep down. When walking with him last week, and he really was quite smashed, he suddenly blurted out that he had missed me... .a bit.  :)eep down in his psyche, it's probably quite a lot more than a bit. He wanted to reminisce and show me things about us, and impress upon me how he has been single since me. This man who I have witnessed partying and laughing it up, seemingly care free with his new lady friend.  The man I knew deep inside is still there and I've seen a bit more of him each time I saw him.

He actually almost exactly picked up the conversation, the exact conversation, that I walked away from 5 months ago on Xmas Eve. It has clearly traumatised him, and seeing me triggers that feeling. Even AFTER spending the night with me 2 weeks ago, a week later, he picked up the same topic yet again as soon as he started talking to me. It is absolutely the stumbling block that's preventing him from climbing back down to reach for me. I don't know how we get past that, being as it is that I can't go back in time and undo what has been done.

I don't assume that we are back together, that everything will be ok, that he will never hurt me again. I don't even assume that he will even speak to me when he returns... .although he probably will seeing as he said he will see me when he gets back. He's trying to be hard on me at the moment and maintain a distance between us. It's a little bit like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted seeing as we spent 3 nights together in the space of a week, and his angry and hurt conversation was interspersed with kisses and gazing into my eyes. He is hurt, there is no denying it.

I reiterate, I feel sorry for the both of us.

As for him calling me a stupid girl, this is not the norm. He was venting a frustration, with the situation, with the mess it's created... .and as I said, he almost seemed to be implying that had this not happened, there would be a chance for us. I'm not offended or upset by it, I understand why he was saying it. It just bemuses me that he has seemingly forgotten that at the time of all this happening, he had in fact, already left me and stopped talking to me 'because it's for the best'. Clearly, the intention was always to come back, but now, I have made that  nigh on impossible for him to do.

The thing is, when he sees me, that's exactly what he wants to do.

And yes, I know it will have to be me who leaves, gives up, etc. The fact is, I really have not, at this point in time, so much as even clapped eyes on anyone I would want to do that with.

I do love him, with my whole heart. He is the other side of my coin. Or, as I remarked to my friend the other day, I was sent my soul mate, but he was delivered to me in damaged packaging.  I do know that this means, either I give up my dreams of a 'normal' (i.e. marriage/kids) relationship... .or I give up him. And that's why it sucks. It feels so totally unfair.

[WoundedBibi]

I do love him, with my whole heart. He is the other side of my coin. Or, as I remarked to my friend the other day, I was sent my soul mate, but he was delivered to me in damaged packaging.  I do know that this means, either I give up my dreams of a 'normal' (i.e. marriage/kids) relationship... .or I give up him. And that's why it sucks. It feels so totally unfair.

I understand. And it's a very difficult choice to make.

If you give him up you might meet someone else you feel the same attraction to you feel you could have kids with. Or you might not.

If you give up your dreams of a normal relationship you would be with the person you feel is your soulmate. You're smart enough to know it will not be easy if you choose him. And perhaps one day you will hold it against him that you had to give up your dreams.

Whichever one you choose you will hurt for having to choose and not being able to have both.

[HurtinNW]

Bibi,

That is all very true. But we are not back together. He is currently away and who knows what will happen when he gets back. I am absolutely sure we will NEVER be in such a dark place as we have these last 6 months, to borrow a horrible over-used phrase 'lessons have been learned' on both sides, I am sure. Whether as friends, acquaintances, or whatever, if the spell has been broken when I seriously was starting to think I had an enemy for life, it's just proven to me what I have suspected all along deep down (although I was losing confidence the more time went on) ... .that he cannot ignore me forever. I thought this was the so called final 'discard' but it appears not.

Not for 1 second am I saying everything is hunky dory, or that it's all ok now we've spoken, or that we have a future now that he's articulated a problem in his head. And I agree with you, I DO think he has BPD. I am just saying that, compared to some of the stories on here, it has manifested itself in him in a relatively light way. Emotionally dysregulating, yes, and it's been nothing short of horrific. But in  reading many of these threads on here, it seems the horror has manifested itself in others emotionally, intellectually, and physically... .I think I got off relatively lightly. You and I have discussed this, and my ex's awareness that something is wrong. I don't think him knowing what the beast within is would help, no, what's in a name? He'd have to want help, I know that.

As I say, I take my part in the events that led up to us being totally isolated from one another all this time. The pain of being just minutes from his house and yet 1000 miles away emotionally is not something I ever wish to repeat. It's very clear to me from things he has said, that he put all of this in a box and on a shelf to cope with it all these months, hence him seeing so ok with it all. I don't suppose he's really been ok, deep down. When walking with him last week, and he really was quite smashed, he suddenly blurted out that he had missed me... .a bit.  Deep down in his psyche, it's probably quite a lot more than a bit. He wanted to reminisce and show me things about us, and impress upon me how he has been single since me. This man who I have witnessed partying and laughing it up, seemingly care free with his new lady friend.  The man I knew deep inside is still there and I've seen a bit more of him each time I saw him.

He actually almost exactly picked up the conversation, the exact conversation, that I walked away from 5 months ago on Xmas Eve. It has clearly traumatised him, and seeing me triggers that feeling. Even AFTER spending the night with me 2 weeks ago, a week later, he picked up the same topic yet again as soon as he started talking to me. It is absolutely the stumbling block that's preventing him from climbing back down to reach for me. I don't know how we get past that, being as it is that I can't go back in time and undo what has been done.

I don't assume that we are back together, that everything will be ok, that he will never hurt me again. I don't even assume that he will even speak to me when he returns... .although he probably will seeing as he said he will see me when he gets back. He's trying to be hard on me at the moment and maintain a distance between us. It's a little bit like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted seeing as we spent 3 nights together in the space of a week, and his angry and hurt conversation was interspersed with kisses and gazing into my eyes. He is hurt, there is no denying it.

I reiterate, I feel sorry for the both of us.

As for him calling me a stupid girl, this is not the norm. He was venting a frustration, with the situation, with the mess it's created... .and as I said, he almost seemed to be implying that had this not happened, there would be a chance for us. I'm not offended or upset by it, I understand why he was saying it. It just bemuses me that he has seemingly forgotten that at the time of all this happening, he had in fact, already left me and stopped talking to me 'because it's for the best'. Clearly, the intention was always to come back, but now, I have made that  nigh on impossible for him to do.

The thing is, when he sees me, that's exactly what he wants to do.

And yes, I know it will have to be me who leaves, gives up, etc. The fact is, I really have not, at this point in time, so much as even clapped eyes on anyone I would want to do that with.

I do love him, with my whole heart. He is the other side of my coin. Or, as I remarked to my friend the other day, I was sent my soul mate, but he was delivered to me in damaged packaging.  I do know that this means, either I give up my dreams of a 'normal' (i.e. marriage/kids) relationship... .or I give up him. And that's why it sucks. It feels so totally unfair.

I'd like to gently point out some of your statements, for me at least, raise concerns about you 1) minimizing his behaviors and 2) projecting what you hope he is feeling without seeming much evidence for it. You seem to be assuming he has learned lessons and is feeling certain ways. He ignored you for months, trashes you to his friends, gets massively drunk, and blurts out he missed you... .a bit. From that you are constructing he must miss you a lot, deep down.

I know what it is like to want desperately for our BPD/NPD partners to care about us, and to hold tightly to the evidence they do. Because at times, they do! But there is a danger in hunting so hard for that scrap of regard you ignore the big steaming pile of doo-doo it is buried in.

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to want a relationship with him, but one of the tools practiced here is getting clarity about what you are dealing with. If you are hopeful for a relationship with him it might be good to start reading the Improving Board, and the lessons there. The members there are also immensely helpful for the tools you will want to practice. But the first step is really understanding that he is showing you who he is. This is who he is. You can't assume your darkest period is behind you. There are members here who have experienced decades of ever-increasing darkness. At some point you have to decide what your boundaries are. What does Stripey want and need? What are your boundaries and how will you maintain them with this fellow, if you decide to proceed?

Hugs to you, I know how very, very hard this is.