Any insight Appreciated Crazy conversation

[Lilyroze]

Hi everyone,

Hesitated writing but need some clarity with those who have been through.

I have been married for going on 18 years, my husband is UDBP, to be honest

it came out over years but due to the work hours, commutes, many other things

I was able to deal with it I guess. I am a fixer by nature, don't like conflict and takes

lot to stand up for myself. I just never knew what the rages, anger, walking on eggshells, never being wrong was before... .LOL Again don't mean to imply anything to him or others just what I am personally going through. Don't mean to say or offend anyone in my need for help.

He was commuting for a job for a couple of years and we had a commuter apartment.

With home prices and owing one here we couldn't buy up there yet. But tried to make

weekends relaxing and fun. He never wanted to interact, do much with me, but tried to understand work, tired, and gave him time to play games and with kids.

In mean time finally found a home closer to his work, found for a great price, and asked what he thought. He loved it, wanted it, wanted us to move up there. He would still have a small commute as still in area of apartment. He said it would be great. I bought it with his blessing from childhood stock money. It was a great home but would need fixing ( wiring, lead paint so painting etc). Due to his work I didn't work outside of home ( but had for many years prior to our marriage). When we got married I paid off his debt, bought our van, home and when sold put money into current home. I use to volunteer, work, and home-schooled, cooked and baked from scratch, garden, etc to save money.

He ended up getting addicted to his IPAD, and over counter pills he used as stacks  ( he would go into rages, craziness, and that is when I started reading more and more on BPD etc). He started ignoring kids etc. A month after we closed on the new house, getting plan in place to sell current ( we would have much more money, be in one house, finish testing out for our educations, save, invest) he then flipped out, stormed out and said wanted a divorce. I let him still stay here on weekends, as didn't have car and he would bring groceries. I would cook and bake for him for all week. Send up breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks to be told never enough or he didn't like rice etc... .LOL Final straw and asked him to choose the other women, the nudes, the gamer guilds or his kids. Not even me, I would go upstairs when he was home, but he ignored the kids, me, was rude. When I asked for help he would tell me no, he would talk to them or whomever all night, leave rags of whatever in the living room for the kids and I to find. So told him he can do that up there, in car, at work, not here. Spend time with kids or leave, he left, and said I kicked him out.

In mean time I had been going without a car now going on two years, have a couple need fixed, every-time went to he would get into an accident with his and we had to use money to fix his. Then additional expenses of us living apart now permently  as he moved into house up there. Said he would fix up, and never has, had a few more accidents ( 4 now from deer etc).  I use to find good used cars for him, get the parts, find the pdfs tell him how to fix etc. Now just done.

I have written him some kind letters, tried to talk to just raging. I outlined if he wanted divorce fine. I wanted him happy, but could he help fix my car, one for kids, and help get the house fixed up there with me to move into, and sell this one. The one up there is paid off and cheaper taxes and not sure how I can afford without. He said fine, but I do the budget, taxes, pay the bills, everytime I went to buy something to repair or fix he had spent more and I didn't have. I have kept us debt free, we use no cards to his chargin. Though if we did we would be in debt again due to him. 

He started threatening to take our son, who has no relationship with him. I have tried to get him to see the good in his day, but am done now with all the craziness, disrespect etc. He has always worked and when not really never made the time for him, was closer to my son from previous marriage and I was glad they were close. I just never understood ignoring his own son, not seeing his gifts or talents. He just saw his weakness, he has a slight speech impediment. My son is 16 going on 17 sop can choose, doesn't want anything to do with him. He then said he wanted half of everything including house I just bought with my stock money. He is the one with the good job, that I got him. Yes I sent the resumes and talked to recruiters for him... .what a joke and nightmare now.

I have been sick need to get to Dr. with no car, and he now wants divorce within month. Said he will serve me, give me both houses, and support. He needs this done now. I asked can you help me fix the house to move into? No... .Can you help us move? It is an hour or more away, no car right now, and house full of antiques I bought before we were married. Said no. I said can you give me a few months to make the budget work, paying for both us right now, the houses, our food and we have taxes coming up and over due on one. Said no, he gave me 2 years. 2 years of non help, drama with his cars, never coming here but to pick up groceries or parts for his cars, or his car accident dramas. I have no problem moving on , want him happy but will need to end of year to make it work.

My state is a definite percentage for alimony if you get it. Same for support. Just not sure what to do with his threatening and thinking he is giving me the world. I put the money on this house, bought the other free and clear. I understand we should split etc but I owe on this will have payments, taxes, taxes on other and he won't help pay now... and wants to leave me in a mess. I asked if he was moving for another job, said no didn't get hired. He is having trouble with work, they say he has anger, but he said he is in right and they agree at times. I asked if someone else and he said needs to touch a woman. Well golly yes that was lacking due to his inattention, being rude, raging and problems. For quite a few years now. He always said that didn't matter he didn't want when I would initiate and I also had to be the one. Now he is addicted and all he talks about needing with someone else. We are over he hates me etc. I said OK.

Sorry for the novel. Any advice? Not sure how even if I agree to all this how to make it work in a few weeks.

[ForeverDad]

Of course he's demanding, that's how he's gotten his debts paid off, a house, whatever.  Most of our Ex's have an extremely high level of entitlement and/or control.  However, he perception is not reality.

• Court's process for divorce is glacially slow.  Each hearing is usually about 1-2 months after the prior one.  Around here most had divorces that took 1-2 years, a few even longer.  However, if he's in a rush to end it, yours might go faster.



• No, No, No, do not cave in to demands, ultimatums, intimidation, etc.  He's expecting to snow/overwhelm you since you've been so accommodating and appeasing in years past.  That Ends Now.  Take advantage of the resources and peer support here, very soon you'll discover that you to can build firm boundaries.  He's try to crush them or ignore them, but that's okay, we're not expecting him to change, it's YOU that the boundaries (how you interact with him) are for.



• Get an experienced family law attorney/lawyer.  You need more than a forms filer and hand holder.  Meanwhile don't promise or agree to Anything long term.  Don't let him intimidate, con or bluff you.  Frankly, you are in a much better position than you think.



• If you have been the primary caregiver regarding parenting for your children, then your history as majority time parent means a lot in court.  He shouldn't be able to march in and demand majority or even equal time.



• Many of our cases need Custody Evaluations.  That's where a trained professional (needs to be very experienced) does an in-depth review of the family, it's members, and any issues.  Many courts, including my, profess to know nothing and rely upon evaluations to guide the cases.



• While many of us did reach settlements, a surprise to us with high conflict ex-spouses, they didn't happen early in the process, it was usually well into the divorce and just before a big hearing or trial.



• Reasoning doesn't work, he's not listening.  He probably views that as a sign of weakness.  Accept that.



• Get an experienced family law attorney/lawyer.  Oh, did I write that already?

[Lilyroze]

Of course he's demanding, that's how he's gotten his debts paid off, a house, whatever.  Most of our Ex's have an extremely high level of entitlement and/or control.  However, he perception is not reality.

• Court's process for divorce is glacially slow.  Each hearing is usually about 1-2 months after the prior one.  Around here most had divorces that took 1-2 years, a few even longer.  However, if he's in a rush to end it, yours might go faster.



• No, No, No, do not cave in to demands, ultimatums, intimidation, etc.  He's expecting to snow/overwhelm you since you've been so accommodating and appeasing in years past.  That Ends Now.  Take advantage of the resources and peer support here, very soon you'll discover that you to can build firm boundaries.  He's try to crush them or ignore them, but that's okay, we're not expecting him to change, it's YOU that the boundaries (how you interact with him) are for.



• Get an experienced family law attorney/lawyer.  You need more than a forms filer and hand holder.  Meanwhile don't promise or agree to Anything long term.  Don't let him intimidate, con or bluff you.  Frankly, you are in a much better position than you think.



• If you have been the primary caregiver regarding parenting for your children, then your history as majority time parent means a lot in court.  He shouldn't be able to march in and demand majority or even equal time.



• Many of our cases need Custody Evaluations.  That's where a trained professional (needs to be very experienced) does an in-depth review of the family, it's members, and any issues.  Many courts, including my, profess to know nothing and rely upon evaluations to guide the cases.



• While many of us did reach settlements, a surprise to us with high conflict ex-spouses, they didn't happen early in the process, it was usually well into the divorce and just before a big hearing or trial.



• Reasoning doesn't work, he's not listening.  He probably views that as a sign of weakness.  Accept that.



• Get an experienced family law attorney/lawyer.  Oh, did I write that already?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read, give advice and help me keep focused. Yes did finally call an attorney today. Am setting up an appointment. Since he is the one that wanted not sure if I should let him file or I?

[ForeverDad]

Some say it doesn't matter.  I tend to lean the other way, file so that in that respect you are taking charge even if being the 'petitioner' means little.

I filed.  We had separated for my self protection.  I listed my reason in the papers.  She, of course, countered with all sorts of allegations, including a separate petition of stalking/harassment.  I did not regret being the one who files, even if no one else cared, I stated facts and could always say her warped response was sour grapes.

It would be better to get a few initial consultations, that way you can choose a lawyer who has good strategies and experience.

[gary seven]

 We had separated for my self protection.

Lilyroze:

Even though we are of different genders, FD , you, myself & a whole lot of other folks here and I are/were married to monsters.

I am going to make a list of reasons for self-protection, as I am planning to file soon.

My children are out of control, she even had one hospitalized and labelled him Bipolar--after three months past that horror, it is readily apparent that he learned how to tantrum from her.  And it hurts me to see that.  But I have to start with me. 

I have been on the therapy-go-round with her for 7 years.  I finally think I have aligned a team including a family therapist.  The 5 of us are going next week---to ask the kids if they have any questions about what went on when they were "little" (Oldest is S12, and D9 and S9).  I think deep inside they know the truth.

[flourdust]

Let's slow this down and take it one step at a time. You're understandably spinning your wheels over every possible outcome and all the issues and concerns you have.

First, interview family law attorneys. At least two. You want to know how they would handle your case and what they think the outcome would be. You want to know their fee structures. You don't necessarily need the most expensive attorney - my impression is that they tend to excel in cases where there is a LOT of (very complex) wealth to divide. You DO want to know if they have experience with high-conflict divorces and mental illness-driven cases.

Second, hire one of those attorneys, and give him/her information on your finances. Ask what a likely resolution of your case is. This is dependent on your state law, but it is likely there are strong guidelines that say how your assets are divided up, how child support and maintenance are determined, and what are the factors that decide custody. Your husband may SAY that he's going to get certain property or custody, but your state law may say something very different. How your individual case goes will vary, but once you know the state guidelines, you'll have solid information you can use to plan your next steps.

[Lilyroze]

Let's slow this down and take it one step at a time. You're understandably spinning your wheels over every possible outcome and all the issues and concerns you have.

First, interview family law attorneys. At least two. You want to know how they would handle your case and what they think the outcome would be. You want to know their fee structures. You don't necessarily need the most expensive attorney - my impression is that they tend to excel in cases where there is a LOT of (very complex) wealth to divide. You DO want to know if they have experience with high-conflict divorces and mental illness-driven cases.

Second, hire one of those attorneys, and give him/her information on your finances. Ask what a likely resolution of your case is. This is dependent on your state law, but it is likely there are strong guidelines that say how your assets are divided up, how child support and maintenance are determined, and what are the factors that decide custody. Your husband may SAY that he's going to get certain property or custody, but your state law may say something very different. How your individual case goes will vary, but once you know the state guidelines, you'll have solid information you can use to plan your next steps.

Yes, thank you so much. Wise words. I appreciate you all making me focus on lawyer and making sure my rights are protected. I have been programmed to think of his needs, how to resolve, make him happy for so long. I usually put his needs first, or the drama. No victim or martyr  just he has always manipulated, raged or made things so crazy never realized until he has been gone. How much peace or easier it is to solve things.

Hard thing is he has changed his mind he will give me all, walk away, then wants half, will help finish and do his responsibilities. Then won't. He never remembers what he said, promises change like the wind, and then will say he never said that. Or, I always keep my word, when questioned then that was long time ago. Or my fault somehow.

Now wants all of a sudden to have this done in few weeks so he can walk away. No help moving, no help with the fixing of all he let go or needs done. Can't move to other house with kids as half electric doesn't work etc. He lives there until moves but would need those done for me to.

Thank you so much. Different family and friends think he is having affair, or wants one now or someone is pressuring him to get done right now.

I asked him if he could give time and what about my being sick and having to go to Dr. will need insurance little longer. Said oh well don't know how insurance goes if we divorce no longer my responsibility.

Just not sure why the rush to get done in weeks.

TY yes spoke to lawyer yesterday, have an appointment in next few weeks. Looking into a second or possible third for as you said rates, experience etc.

TY so much! I really appreciate all the help to all who have reached out on here, or taken time to read.

[ForeverDad]

Health insurance is simple - and on your side.  If you're on his health insurance when the case is filed then he can't drop you until the divorce is final.  Courts usually have rules that certain resources in use at the start of the divorce must continue in some form until the divorce is final, I think the legal premise is that one party can't punish or coerce the other party.  Health insurance is one of them.  Then you have a right to COBRA coverage for, as I recall, up to 18 months.  But that will be at a higher cost, no employee discounts.

If any minor children then he could be required to keep them on his insurance or reimburse you for them on your insurance.

[sanemom]

Your best bet is definitely to get a lawyer who can shield you from the crazy.  He sounds like he is really trying to manipulate the situation any which way he can.  You got some great advice here about finding a lawyer who knows high conflict and keeping your focus. 

[LilMe]

Hi Lilyroze!  

You have received wonderful legal advice so far.  These folks are the best!  I wanted to chime in and welcome you.  I am 2 months out of a 10 year 'marriage' to an uBPD.  I was a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom.  We raised all our own food and lived far out in the country.  I had to leave my dog and my milk cow behind.  (He has since sold my cow and told me, a month after the fact, that my dog went looking for me and disappeared.)  Now my children and I live in a small rental home in town and I work as a waitress.  It is soo hard!  I did manage to plant tomatoes, peppers, and beans in our flower bed.  

One thing I have finally accepted is that uBPD will not help me or give me anything.  I must move on and take care of things myself.  He will not let the children and I have anything from our home.  We left with the clothes we were wearing and I managed to take my computer.  He has all my business equipment, all my pictures/mementos; everything I have worked my whole life for.  I had to let it go in my mind and move on.  If I get some of the stuff eventually, awesome!  But if not, it sucks, but I will live.  It has been a hard process getting to this place in my mind!  It is not fair!

He emailed that I could come get my stuff last week.  When I showed up he wouldn't let me take anything.  I think he did it just to be mean.  It was very upsetting, but that is when I finally accepted it.  The last thing I said to him was that he can keep my stuff; my children are more important and I will happily give it all up for them (he was abusive to myself and my son 7).

My point is that I understand you need help.  It is totally overwhelming!  But I know you can do it yourself and things will turn out OK.  Let friends and family know that you need help!  It is OK to ask.  When this is all behind you, you can be the one helping them.  Ask for a ride to the doctor.  There is likely some type of ride service for medical appointments available through your insurance or your local social services.  Let people know you need help with the repairs.  There are amazingly kind and helpful people in the world willing to help out.   Be strong and confident.  You can do this!

[ForeverDad]

One thing I have finally accepted is that uBPD will not help me or give me anything.  I must move on and take care of things myself.  He will not let the children and I have anything from our home.  We left with the clothes we were wearing and I managed to take my computer.  He has all my business equipment, all my pictures/mementos; everything I have worked my whole life for.  I had to let it go in my mind and move on.  If I get some of the stuff eventually, awesome!  But if not, it sucks, but I will live.

We encourage our members that may end up leaving to think ahead, secure smaller less noticed mementos and other items in a safe place where the other does not have electronic or physical access.  Copy or take essential documents such as deeds, titles, account numbers, statements, birth certificates, SSN cards, passports, etc.  Also, take pictures or videos of the home so the spouse can't say they never existed.

He emailed that I could come get my stuff last week.  When I showed up he wouldn't let me take anything.  I think he did it just to be mean.  It was very upsetting, but that is when I finally accepted it.  The last thing I said to him was that he can keep my stuff; my children are more important and I will happily give it all up for them (he was abusive to myself and my son 7).

Sometimes the stbEx will hold things as Leverage against us.  However, just saying we don't care doesn't mean we'll then get them, there is a risk they'll just disappear.

I don't know whether LilMe would have had better success getting her items if she had brought a witness.  The best witness is a police officer ("officer of the court" who accompanies you on a "peace visit" to get your things.  That could ramp up the level of conflict.  I'm not sure but I don't think he could refuse access to your personal items if you had an officer with you.  If he did refuse access you'd have to resort to court to get an order but there's already a risk they could have disappeared by then.  (That's why getting photos or videos in advance is so helpful.)

[LilMe]

I don't know whether LilMe would have had better success getting her items if she had brought a witness.  The best witness is a police officer ("officer of the court" who accompanies you on a "peace visit" to get your things.  That could ramp up the level of conflict.  I'm not sure but I don't think he could refuse access to your personal items if you had an officer with you.  If he did refuse access you'd have to resort to court to get an order but there's already a risk they could have disappeared by then.  (That's why getting photos or videos in advance is so helpful.)

I did try to leave with my stuff, but instead of him being gone that day he decided to stay home.  My lawyer and family urged me to just leave without it as it was becoming unsafe for myself and the children.  I had it planned for weeks ahead of time as he said he wouldn't miss his appointment for anything.  I have brought witnesses and the police when each time he said I could come get my things (multiple times).  We were not married and it is his home, so they cannot determine what is mine there.  They did finally let me take my clothes, but that is it.

I still stand by my advice that AngelGirl should do what she needs to do and not wait around for her husband's help.  If he helps, great.  If not, she is still getting things done.  Definitely take pictures before and after any home repairs and save all your receipts.  Document everything!  And please see a doctor.  Your health should be a priority.

[Lilyroze]

Thank you so much everyone. Taking time to process, and really appreciate all the insight, help and warm welcome.

It is perplexing to say the least. My issue is he thinks he is giving me everything, but in reality with my having paid off his debt ( though many years ago), doing his resumes, helping him with recruiters, every-time he quit jobs, move up to this one, and buying or putting all my money into the houses over years. He is giving me a house with a mortgage, other one I paid for hours away, and both need work, taxes etc. I will need to move, fix up etc with no job right now.

He changes his mind, wants half, threatens with half then says will give all wants done now. Not sure how I will do all this but will and be better for it in end.

I will look to the future, blessings and do it for my kids. I want to stay positive, be happy with what I have.

I know many high conflict they take the things and make life miserable. I feel like I am doing that by insisting he help with fixing the cars ( for the kids and I, he left broken, he fixes his own and keeps getting new ones due to crashing), fixing the house or help me move. I know he probably won't and will do myself if need to.

I am only asking for the things as I made sure all along to keep us debt free, used all my business, and selling my home when first married money, stock money etc. To have him with the good job, good money now walking out.

He is now saying he will give it all just wants done. I think he is the BPD type that paint you black and walk away. He is complaining now needs to do it for intimacy, he needs to touch someone... .sigh.

Well yes lacked when he was always working, not being here, not  loving, I always had to initiate, then gave up. Just gave him time to play games or watch movies with kids on weekend, to now being bad guy.

He got so addicted to his IPAD, gamers forums, women that he never put in down in the car, house even helping in kitchen. I would have to compete with him sneaking messages, and talking to others. Caught him in the bushes when he was suppose to be mowing the lawn. It was just weird, creepy and I felt uncomfortable. Didn't need the neighbours seeing his weirdness.

That was the final straw asked him to pay attention to kids or leave, he left. When he comes over to drop off groceries etc until car is done, I say thank you have him leave it at door, so no conflict etc. I am so done with all. To do all that at work, car or other home, not here. Just pay attention to kids, give them time and help me get somethings done around house so we could move forward as a couple or be done. To be honest that was a year ago, but he never fixed the house up there just lived in it, never came and helped here get things done that needed fixing, going through, while I was sick, or whatever. Then said I was running his life. How? He lived up there, worked, never called us all week, never did anything but drop off groceries and I buy in bulk so that was a big shop every 6 weeks, small things once in awhile. Everytime saved up to fix my car, he crashed his or needed something and spent the money.

He can't look at his part in, try to work on, give up the addictions, pay attention to any, and acts like a child about money, relationships etc. Rages all the time, then brings up when I talked or yelled at him once years ago... .sigh.

Sometimes tried so hard to make his life better cooking and baking for him all week. Taking care of everything with home, finances, bills, taxes, garden, to have him call it my hobbies... .LOL

I have cried, been hurt and felt am I the one with the problem since he is willing to walk away from the kids, I, the marriage and what ever. Then think of all I have done, tried, all the talks I tired to have to show him where we were at financially ( how we were on track for a good retirement, have fun) and he called them lectures any-time I tried to talk to him over ten minutes. It didn't matter if it was praises, or great plans, what needed to be done on the houses ( and all the supplies and pdf's, everything I got to do it, how much the kids and I would help), to needing a friend. It was never heart to hearts to him, friendship, love, or working on a relationship it was always met with stony stares, complaints and how he wanted to go back to a tree and be a 9 year old. Sigh sorry for the ramble.

[flourdust]

Thank you so much everyone. Taking time to process, and really appreciate all the insight, help and warm welcome.

It is perplexing to say the least. My issue is he thinks he is giving me everything, but in reality with my having paid off his debt ( though many years ago), doing his resumes, helping him with recruiters, every-time he quit jobs, move up to this one, and buying or putting all my money into the houses over years. He is giving me a house with a mortgage, other one I paid for hours away, and both need work, taxes etc. I will need to move, fix up etc with no job right now.

He changes his mind, wants half, threatens with half then says will give all wants done now. Not sure how I will do all this but will and be better for it in end.

This sounds like classic BPD behavior. His feelings drive his reasoning and memory, rather than being in balance with them. He's in a good mood? He's reasonable, even magnanimous. He's feeling abandoned and angry? He wants to punish you, and he's convinced that his memory tells him it's payback for things you have done. And so on.

The word my attorney uses is "volatile" -- "liable to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse."

It can be infuriating and baffling for those of us with more or less functional brains. We can understand how someone could want to strike a fair deal ... .or strike a deal that benefits them ... .or even be angry and want to make divorce punitive. We can't understand how one person can contain all of those behaviors and flip between them seemingly at whim and with no understanding that their behavior is changing.

[Lilyroze]

Ahhh Yes, thank you Flourdust. You all are so right. I keep trying to reason with someone unreasonable. Can't be done and need to remember that. Flourdust I can't thank you and all of you enough, truly. The volatile is the perfect word.

[ForeverDad]

Have you heard of gaslighting?  Probably, I'm sure.  That's what you're experiencing.  The term comes from a 1940s movie "Gaslight".  British version was 1940 and the better American version was 1944 as I recall.  I won't give away the whole plot but a man woos an innocent young woman and he distorts everything around her to make her doubt her own sanity, all for his own selfish, nefarious designs.  THAT is what just about every member here has experienced.

FOG — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

[Lilyroze]

Have you heard of gaslighting?  Probably, I'm sure.  That's what you're experiencing.  The term comes from a 1940s movie "Gaslight".  British version was 1940 and the better American version was 1944 as I recall.  I won't give away the whole plot but a man woos an innocent young woman and he distorts everything around her to make her doubt her own sanity, all for his own selfish, nefarious designs.  THAT is what just about every member here has experienced.

FOG — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

Thank you ForeverDad, truly appreciate you words of wisdom. This post has been good for me, it is keeping me accountable to having talked to lawyer, made an appointment coming up and well to the kids and I. I have always put his health, and him first. Don't get me wrong my kids are my world and would do anything for them. But that is why I am in mess, so many times I would take him to side and talk to him, so we would seem united and not putting him down. They didn't see much of it at first.

Funny thing he tells me he is done as I am the demanding one, controlling ( no same as the bank or accountant would say I would tell him when we didn't have the money.) I tried to always make room in budget for his wants as well, just never appreciated.

[Lilyroze]

Should clarify though my kids told me always thought he was immature, and now crazy. As they have seen the irrational, raging, dramas, craziness.

One of the reasons he told me he wanted a divorce after I bought the other house to move up near his work... .Over 10 years ago lost twins ( was very sick and he left me in hospital hallway for many hours.) I begged to go to another hospital, for help etc. They said couldn't get to me. I lost them. Was hurt and angry at first, decided to not sue hospital as wanted to go on, be happy with my other kids, try again, and just have joy in our lives. He said I blamed him and didn't forgive... .LOL

did forgive was not mentioned again, we went on to have another son, many vacations, a move over the years and fun. Sorry if TMI just was so hurt he would bring up.

He said I didn't let him talk to his family. No they were rude and hurtful as he was when lost twins. I use to write, send cards, gifts, and paid for many things for them and their kids. When they pulled that and said I was OK, but they only wanted to hear from him. I told him no more, I won't write, call and send gifts to be hurt. You do for them from now on. I don't hate them, forgive them just don't need it. He got mad and didn't talk to them for years. I would tell him call, write, it is fine. Now I am blamed for that and loss of twins. Just craziness.

So yes seeing the FOG, projection, craziness, drama, hurt and dysfunction now for what it is.