Lying

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm sure this topic has been discussed in great detail over the years. However, I'm ignorant on this part of the disorder and would like some clarification:

-What are their motivations to lie?

-Are they aware that they're lying?

-What causes them to lie (i.e. Brain problems, pathology, etc.)

-Do they remember their lies?

-Are they incapable of being honest/Can they control their lying?

-Is lying part of the disorder or does it have more to do with their character?

-Is it right for us to judge them for lying if they can't control it?

Lastly, what are some of the most brazen examples of lying that you've personally encountered?

[sweet tooth]

I'm sure this topic has been discussed in great detail over the years. However, I'm ignorant on this part of the disorder and would like some clarification:

-What are their motivations to lie?

-Are they aware that they're lying?

-What causes them to lie (i.e. Brain problems, pathology, etc.)

-Do they remember their lies?

-Are they incapable of being honest/Can they control their lying?

-Is lying part of the disorder or does it have more to do with their character?

-Is it right for us to judge them for lying if they can't control it?

Lastly, what are some of the most brazen examples of lying that you've personally encountered?

[Confused528]

I have no doubt mine was a BPD/narcissist mix.  She loved her self and it made me sick!  She wanted to create a fantasy world and portray herself as something she wasn't!  She made it seem like her and get husband were millionaires... .She lied about her job, made up insane stories about her bonus!  She told me she got a 150 thousand dollar bonus.  I looked her job up online and the salary was 65 grand... .With an average of 10 grand in bonuses.This was towards the end when I was starting to withdraw from her so i didnt call her out.  She made up stories about her husband to make him seem like a monster.  She was buying a 800 thousand dollar beach house... .That wasn't true... .She made up stories about her past... .But I think some lie because they try and mold themselves into something that appeals to you and satisfies their ego

[sweet tooth]

I have no doubt mine was a BPD/narcissist mix.  She loved her self and it made me sick!  She wanted to create a fantasy world and portray herself as something she wasn't!  She made it seem like her and get husband were millionaires... .She lied about her job, made up insane stories about her bonus!  She told me she got a 150 thousand dollar bonus.  I looked her job up online and the salary was 65 grand... .With an average of 10 grand in bonuses.This was towards the end when I was starting to withdraw from her so i didnt call her out.  She made up stories about her husband to make him seem like a monster.  She was buying a 800 thousand dollar beach house... .That wasn't true... .She made up stories about her past... .But I think some lie because they try and mold themselves into something that appeals to you and satisfies their ego

That's insane. Mine also made crazy accusations about her ex-husband:

-He physically abused her

-He had sexual thoughts about their kid

-He was a sociopath, etc.

-He took her to court 20 times in a year

My T and I concluded that she lied about many things.

[drummerboy5]

I have no doubt mine was a BPD/narcissist mix.  She loved her self and it made me sick!  She wanted to create a fantasy world and portray herself as something she wasn't!  She made it seem like her and get husband were millionaires... .She lied about her job, made up insane stories about her bonus!  She told me she got a 150 thousand dollar bonus.  I looked her job up online and the salary was 65 grand... .With an average of 10 grand in bonuses.This was towards the end when I was starting to withdraw from her so i didnt call her out.  She made up stories about her husband to make him seem like a monster.  She was buying a 800 thousand dollar beach house... .That wasn't true... .She made up stories about her past... .But I think some lie because they try and mold themselves into something that appeals to you and satisfies their ego

I know exactly what you are talking about. My exBPD/npd traits was so fake on social media. She was an active  Christian  and the best mother in the world. Funny thing is she was neither in real life. She was an alcoholic and had her family watch her kid most of the time. All scams for the outside world to think she was perfect! It's sad that they lie to cover up the person they really are!

[sweet tooth]

I have no doubt mine was a BPD/narcissist mix.  She loved her self and it made me sick!  She wanted to create a fantasy world and portray herself as something she wasn't!  She made it seem like her and get husband were millionaires... .She lied about her job, made up insane stories about her bonus!  She told me she got a 150 thousand dollar bonus.  I looked her job up online and the salary was 65 grand... .With an average of 10 grand in bonuses.This was towards the end when I was starting to withdraw from her so i didnt call her out.  She made up stories about her husband to make him seem like a monster.  She was buying a 800 thousand dollar beach house... .That wasn't true... .She made up stories about her past... .But I think some lie because they try and mold themselves into something that appeals to you and satisfies their ego

I know exactly what you are talking about. My exBPD/npd traits was so fake on social media. She was an active  Christian  and the best mother in the world. Funny thing is she was neither in real life. She was an alcoholic and had her family watch her kid most of the time. All scams for the outside world to think she was perfect! It's sad that they lie to cover up the person they really are!

I'm starting to think mine had her parents (with whom she lived) take care of her daughter most of the time. I feel horribly for that poor little girl.

[SummerStorm]

I think a lot of it is to cover up who they are or to make themselves seem more interesting.  Some of it is to get sympathy.  A lot of my BPD friend's lies are rooted in truth but completely exaggerated.  For example, she was molested at age 15.  It happened once, and she went to therapy for it (this info came from her mother).  According to her, it happened many times from the ages of 10-15, and her mother did nothing to help her.  She also told me a story about how she was on the golf team at the first college she attended, when in reality, they asked her to join the golf team during freshman orientation, and she declined.  She attributes her most serious suicide attempt to being overwhelmed at college and says she changed majors because of it.  The truth is that her boyfriend broke up with her and she felt like she couldn't live without him.  Also, she decided to change her major before she tried to commit suicide.  So, there are kernels of truth there.

Sometimes, she lies so that people aren't disappointed in her.  I think this has to do with self-esteem and being worried that people will abandon her if she lets them down.  For example, I once asked if she wanted to go somewhere with me, and she said she couldn't because she had to babysit that day.  In reality, her mom and stepdad were flying in to meet her boyfriend.  Several times, she considered leaving him to be with me, so I guess she felt like saying she was babysitting was less likely to make me abandon her.  I don't know.  Either way, it's always about them. 

[drummerboy5]

I have no doubt mine was a BPD/narcissist mix.  She loved her self and it made me sick!  She wanted to create a fantasy world and portray herself as something she wasn't!  She made it seem like her and get husband were millionaires... .She lied about her job, made up insane stories about her bonus!  She told me she got a 150 thousand dollar bonus.  I looked her job up online and the salary was 65 grand... .With an average of 10 grand in bonuses.This was towards the end when I was starting to withdraw from her so i didnt call her out.  She made up stories about her husband to make him seem like a monster.  She was buying a 800 thousand dollar beach house... .That wasn't true... .She made up stories about her past... .But I think some lie because they try and mold themselves into something that appeals to you and satisfies their ego

I know exactly what you are talking about. My exBPD/npd traits was so fake on social media. She was an active  Christian  and the best mother in the world. Funny thing is she was neither in real life. She was an alcoholic and had her family watch her kid most of the time. All scams for the outside world to think she was perfect! It's sad that they lie to cover up the person they really are!

I'm starting to think mine had her parents (with whom she lived) take care of her daughter most of the time. I feel horribly for that poor little girl.

My ex lived with gma and gpa and they took care of her child. I'll be damned if they take care of my child after she's born(if the child is mine) my exBPD is in her 30s and has never lived with a guy or on her own red flag!

[once removed]

-What are their motivations to lie?

for the most part, they are the same as anyone else: emotional survival, avoidance of consequence. in the context of BPD, often the fear of abandonment.

-Are they aware that they're lying?

i think everyone is sometimes aware that they are lying. the question is what does "aware" mean in this context (and what is the context). if "aware" means self reflective, and completely aware of the motivations for lying, or if the behavior is compulsive, aware of lying as a repeating maladaptive coping tool in life, the answer is probably not.

having said that, for someone with BPD, the saying is "feelings=facts". so what may not be objective reality may not at all be a lie from that persons perspective. if i tell you the sky is green and i believe it, and you know it to be blue, im not sure thats "lying"; and this may be some of what you experienced.

as well, a diagnostic criteria of BPD is dissociative symptoms under stress.

furthermore, impulsivity is a hallmark of the disorder. this includes fickle, childlike expressions.

and lastly, an unstable sense of self may play a role here as well. values, beliefs, hobbies/activities, personal preferences, are subject to change.

-What causes them to lie (i.e. Brain problems, pathology, etc.)

emotional survival, fear of abandonment, feelings=facts, impulsivity, unstable sense of self, any of the above, or just a simple, less pathological "because" (the same reasons anyone lies).

-Do they remember their lies?

not so much if lies are a result of dissociation due to stress, or if the reality does not match ones feelings (i wouldnt necessarily consider that to be "lying". the idea of being a liar is shameful, a person with BPD will go to great lengths (referring to deeply ingrained psychological defense mechanisms) to avoid feeling shame.

-Are they incapable of being honest/Can they control their lying?

i dont think anyone is incapable of being honest, but im not sure about the context youre asking about here. are you asking if a person with BPD is capable of self reflection? are you asking if the "truth" is consciously sustainable? are you asking if you and the person youre referring to could have a heart to heart, give and take, honest discussion about your relationship?

-Is lying part of the disorder or does it have more to do with their character?

lying is not a diagnostic criteria for BPD if thats what youre asking. there are motivating factors (the BPD criteria, deeply ingrained psychological defense mechanisms already listed, fear of abandonment etc) that may drive/result in lying.

-Is it right for us to judge them for lying if they can't control it?

i would reframe this slightly. it is "right" to recognize that someone is an adult and responsible for their actions. it is "right" to recognize how these actions effect you, and respond accordingly (decide if thats a person you want in your life).

these are very broad questions and there is not a one size fits all answer for any of them, i dont think. i would ask, sweet tooth, what kinds of lies are you referring to/played a role in your relationship, and whether any of these explanations make sense in terms of driving/motivating factors.

[sweet tooth]

Specifically, I'm trying to figure out the motivations why my ex lied to me about the "abuse" she received from her ex-husband. Why she told me he abused her, he went to jail for not paying child support, that they went to court 20 times in a year. Was it a smear against him? To portray herself as a victim to get sympathy from me?

Does her family know that she lies? Does she lie to them/other people, or did she just lie to me?

The more I discover about this illness, the more I realize how disturbed she is. It gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand I kind of want to be angry at her for betraying me and splitting me black. On the other hand, I feel sorry for her because she is so pathetic. I also miss the fantasy person that I fell in love with.

[sweet tooth]

Thank you for your insights, once. You seem to be very objective.

[once removed]

Specifically, I'm trying to figure out the motivations why my ex lied to me about the "abuse" she received from her ex-husband. Why she told me he abused her, he went to jail for not paying child support, that they went to court 20 times in a year. Was it a smear against him?  

its possible that these were not untruths, though it sounds like you have reason to believe that they are (one in particular), so lets look at them; some of what im saying is admittedly speculation.

1. this may be her version of reality. even going to court twenty times in a year.

2. was it a smear? if its not true, it certainly is from our perspective. that does not preclude it being her version of reality. he may be (it sounds like he is) split black. the "smear campaign" as we experience it is very justified, from that persons perspective. a person (anyone) in pain tends to look for someone to blame for their pain, and if they believe that pain was inflicted on them, they are inclined to rail against that person.

3. (piggybacking on #1) in general, our exes experienced the relationship from a very different perspective than ours. there was a great deal going on psychologically and in their heads that we were not privy to. she may very well believe that he abused her, from her perspective.

4. (piggybacking on #2) people with BPD in general have a victim mentality and see themselves as victims. this is a necessary survival tool.

To portray herself as a victim to get sympathy from me?

i would start by asking myself if i saw her as a victim and felt sympathy. it can be a powerful hook.

because yes, that is one possibility, though not necessarily a conscious, deliberate plan. in other words, odds are she did not set out to pull the wool over your eyes, but that may have been the result. if this is what she was doing, odds are she has done it before, and seen results; it may have become a means by which to bond, and she may know of no other alternative... .we tend to go with what works for us when it comes to others. think about, for example, two wounded people that meet, and bond over their experience. that becomes a working dynamic, a foundation for the relationship.

theres a lot of overlap to the suggestions im making. at the heart of it i think, is the Karpman Drama Triangle  

Does her family know that she lies? Does she lie to them/other people, or did she just lie to me?

impossible to confirm or deny, but her family has lived with her, and would almost certainly have experienced her common behaviors first hand. a criteria for BPD is a history of unstable interpersonal relationships. if this is typical behavior for her, then odds are you are not the first or the last.

[sweet tooth]

So when you say "her version of reality," is that synonymous with "delusion?" Like the nut job waking around claiming that he is Julius Cesar?

[once removed]

So when you say "her version of reality," is that synonymous with "delusion?" Like the nut job waking around claiming that he is Julius Cesar?

not exactly, though there may be delusional thinking involved. if we want to understand behavior, we cant dismiss perspective outright.

every person has a unique entire life experience, personality, brain chemistry, all sorts of things that color perspective and reality. one may be closer to objective reality than another, though its hard for either party of a romantic relationship to be objective. we sort those things (our exes stuff from our stuff, actions/reactions) as we detach.

[Herodias]

I think they come up with their own stories of what happened and then convince themselves it is truth and stick with it. They can compartmentalize. They know what they are saying are lies and if you call them out on it they will rage back at you to protect themselves. In cases where I caught mine lying to other people, I could talk to him about it, but if he lied to me, I could not... .He used the rage to protect his story against me. When he lied to others, we would discuss how wrong it is... .He knew what he was doing. Yes, they want your sympathy and they want to look like the better person. Sometimes their lies are projections of what they did to other people and sometimes it is other people stories that they use for lies. I always told mine I was a reflection of him, so if I was treating him a certain way, it was because he was doing it to me.  Screwed up stuff here, I know... .it's life with them. The deciphering what is truth and what is not is endless work. You may never know.

[kc sunshine]

My ex seemed to not lie at all, and in fact to tell me way too many of her truths, ones that I totally didn't need/want to know (like details of her intimate life with her other partners). Is this something others had to face as well?

[atomic popsicles]

Kc sunshine my ex also told me way too much... .  ex as in 24 hour ex... .but he did lie to get himself out of trouble.

[sweet tooth]

Mine lied about things that really didn't need to be lied about: She lied as projection, to make herself look the victim, etc. She exaggerated health issues.

I think her lying M.O. mostly involved vilifying her ex-husband and to gain sympathy. I don't know. I'm having a rough day with this stuff. I started breaking out into a sweat and panicking at work. I almost texted her.

[kc sunshine]

I love that you wrote "almost"-- good job at keeping it there. Text us instead. 

Mine lied about things that really didn't need to be lied about: She lied as projection, to make herself look the victim, etc. She exaggerated health issues.

I think her lying M.O. mostly involved vilifying her ex-husband and to gain sympathy. I don't know. I'm having a rough day with this stuff. I started breaking out into a sweat and panicking at work. I almost texted her.

[hurting300]

Yes they do know they are lying. Ask yourself why YOU might lie about something? No difference really. They are just pathological with it.

[gotbushels]

Hey ST:)

Mine lied about things that really didn't need to be lied about: She lied as projection, to make herself look the victim, etc. She exaggerated health issues.

I think her lying M.O. mostly involved vilifying her ex-husband and to gain sympathy. I don't know. I'm having a rough day with this stuff. I started breaking out into a sweat and panicking at work. I almost texted her.

Sometimes the BP's need to lie is a matter of survival. Understanding this can help you to recover from your breakup.

Once Removed brought up to you that BPs can confuse feelings with facts. Healthy people sometimes say "feelings are not facts", or base their feelings upon the facts. These people are more aware of themselves as operators in a reality, rather than their feelings defining their reality. BPs sometimes don't.

An example:

• Feeling: Her fear you're going to break up with her.



• Fact: You left the house 5 minutes earlier to beat traffic.



• Result (feeling creates fact): She feels you're leaving earlier to see a new girlfriend and break up with her. This feeling becomes fact regardless of traffic. To her, it's true as the sky is blue.

Small difference but big chain. Since it can be considered biologically emplaced, no amount or type of "normal" proving will change her mind. You simply cannot change the sky's colour. Proofs lose their end--they become infinite.

Now, combine this with the possibility that her entire existence is based upon your proximity. Toddlers sometimes think their parents are actually permanently "dying" when they leave the room. To her, it could be that a breakup → you "die" → she "dies". If she can simply lie to stop you "leaving the room" then she doesn't "die". Therefore the lie becomes an easy way to survive.

This is one way to look at this part of the disorder around a BP valuing lying and accountability differently. I hope it clarifies things for you. I hope your days are less rough--don't sweat it:)