Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
September 18, 2021, 05:51:45 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What really causes the devalue and discard?  (Read 6350 times)
schwing
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: married to a non
Posts: 3598


WWW
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2016, 05:57:20 PM »

My 2 bits... .

Why do they devalue and discard?

I think it goes to the heart of their disorder.  My understanding of this disorder is that it is like the consequence of an early childhood trauma resulting in like a PTSD situation except for someone with limited emotional development.  As full of personality as people with BPD (pwBPD) can appear, I don't believe they have a fixed personality/identity.  Sure it can last a long time, but it can change as they move from person to person (from one loved one to another); you wouldn't know it unless you were spying on them (or unless they get careless).

As I understand it, they don't have a fixed identity because they've spent much (if not all) of their lives running away from the key event of their own identity: their primary abandonment/betrayal trauma.  As a child, it was too much to handle.  So like someone with multiple personalities, they created a different personality to "pilot" so that the true personality, the child personae who suffered the trauma takes a back seat.  The "child" is almost "discarded" even.  And probably "devalued" as well. 

So in a sense, when it comes to "all" personalities (including their own) it's always been a strategy of "devalue" and "discard." They take on one set of characteristics (personae) in order to form an attachment with one person.  When that relationship develops, it triggers their buried issues, devalues and discards.  Then they find another person, put on another set of characteristics. etc... etc...

Why?  I think ultimately they want to get past their problem.  They *want* to find someone who they can feel intimate with, *at home* with, familiar like family with... someone who *doesn't* trigger their issues.  But you cannot get past a problem by running away from it.  This is the lesson they have not yet learned, or refuse to learn.

Logged

2010
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 808


« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 07:03:23 PM »

As some parents on the board with children diagnosed with BPD will tell you, there was no abandonment for the child. There was merely the failure to separate from the primary caretaker in order to individuate. So in this way, enmeshment was encouraging infantilization and arrested development. Some very, very good Mothers are guilty of this. Helicopter Mothers make Bpd children as much as neglectful or abusive Mothers.

BPD is the failure to separate / individuate from primary caretakers. Consequently, they seek out replications of caretakers found in people who need perfect mirroring.

Many BPD partners are also suffering from immaturity. They also have developmental deficits in their thinking, and they project these onto the unknowing Borderline in order to cast off their own shame and utilize the defects of the Borderline as their combination mirroring agent and marketeer for their false self.

When the false self fails from imperfect mirroring; a huge narcissistic injury ensues. If this causes a jump into a new relationship to soothe the ego and calm the reactive need -then rightfully, the Borderline withdraws. (One of the signs of immaturity and impulsivity is multiple partners overlapping.)

There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.

When a person needs perfect mirroring and must have it from multiple sources; moving on to recycle old flames or search on-line for new ones, or have one-night stands- this is a sign of insecurity. Never to be alone, unable to delay gratification. Always needy. Multiple relationships overlapping during the BPD relationship eliminate trust, safety, and security for a Borderline. This isn't a discard and devaluation- this is an extreme valuation that once temporarily soothed the developmental deficit and need for value. Sometimes, for both parties. One person is doing the necessary stepping back to detach and protect, and yes it involves hurt and mistrust.

Considering yourself to be above average in attractiveness, a "catch" and a somatic is something that pivots on reactions from mirrors. Using a person to act as a mirror objectifies that person until they become exhausted with feelings of bondage and slavery.

The subsequent retreat from this is not a devaluation, but rather a self fulfilling prophecy, that comes from selling themselves out to be used and the failure of individuation. Never to have the safety and security of being loved for who they are because they haven't found themselves in development. It is a repetition compulsion.

Borderlines often pick partners who do this because it proves their self-defeating actions. It is an unconscious response and one that takes many years of therapy to overcome.  Idea

Logged
GreenEyedMonster
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 720



WWW
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2016, 10:48:52 PM »

As some parents on the board with children diagnosed with BPD will tell you, there was no abandonment for the child. There was merely the failure to separate from the primary caretaker in order to individuate. So in this way, enmeshment was encouraging infantilization and arrested development. Some very, very good Mothers are guilty of this. Helicopter Mothers make Bpd children as much as neglectful or abusive Mothers.

BPD is the failure to separate / individuate from primary caretakers. Consequently, they seek out replications of caretakers found in people who need perfect mirroring.

Many BPD partners are also suffering from immaturity. They also have developmental deficits in their thinking, and they project these onto the unknowing Borderline in order to cast off their own shame and utilize the defects of the Borderline as their combination mirroring agent and marketeer for their false self.

When the false self fails from imperfect mirroring; a huge narcissistic injury ensues. If this causes a jump into a new relationship to soothe the ego and calm the reactive need -then rightfully, the Borderline withdraws. (One of the signs of immaturity and impulsivity is multiple partners overlapping.)

There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.

When a person needs perfect mirroring and must have it from multiple sources; moving on to recycle old flames or search on-line for new ones, or have one-night stands- this is a sign of insecurity. Never to be alone, unable to delay gratification. Always needy. Multiple relationships overlapping during the BPD relationship eliminate trust, safety, and security for a Borderline. This isn't a discard and devaluation- this is an extreme valuation that once temporarily soothed the developmental deficit and need for value. Sometimes, for both parties. One person is doing the necessary stepping back to detach and protect, and yes it involves hurt and mistrust.

Considering yourself to be above average in attractiveness, a "catch" and a somatic is something that pivots on reactions from mirrors. Using a person to act as a mirror objectifies that person until they become exhausted with feelings of bondage and slavery.

The subsequent retreat from this is not a devaluation, but rather a self fulfilling prophecy, that comes from selling themselves out to be used and the failure of individuation. Never to have the safety and security of being loved for who they are because they haven't found themselves in development. It is a repetition compulsion.

Borderlines often pick partners who do this because it proves their self-defeating actions. It is an unconscious response and one that takes many years of therapy to overcome.  Idea

Fascinating post.  I got lost in there a couple times trying to differentiate the pwBPD and the partner.

One of the trends I notice on this board is a tendency for all parties involved to be loved by their partner as if they were little kids, in an unconditional sort of way.  The way people love a baby or toddler simply for existing.

A lot of people agonize over what love really is, and whether or not that is really love.  I would say that it is, and probably its purest form, but it is also a completely unrealistic expectation for adult relationships.  Adult relationships are always "earned" to some degree, with the other party having agency to accept or reject us.  For example, in an employment situation, our employers might be able to give us the benefit of the doubt if we've had a good reputation, but they can't employ us unconditionally.  We can get fired if we mess up.  Likewise, a romantic partner can reject us if we don't meet their expectations.  That is a terrifying thought for someone with abandonment fears, and a romantic relationship can take on an almost abusive cast if the individual focuses on that too much.

People, even children, know the difference between being loved for "just being" and love they have to earn.  One of my exes grew up in a very unfortunate situation where he never felt loved by his caregivers for simply existing.  He is still looking for that kind of love as an adult and in some ways has a hard time figuring out that it even exists.  He feels that every relationship is essentially destined for failure the moment he disappoints someone, not realizing that small conflicts and disappointments are part of most long-term situations and that most good partners will be able to look at the bigger picture.
Logged
schwing
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: married to a non
Posts: 3598


WWW
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2016, 02:07:42 AM »

As some parents on the board with children diagnosed with BPD will tell you, there was no abandonment for the child.

Maybe there needs only a perceived (or even imagined) abandonment or betrayal?  Individuals with more sensitive dispositions would be more susceptible?

There was merely the failure to separate from the primary caretaker in order to individuate. So in this way, enmeshment was encouraging infantilization and arrested development. Some very, very good Mothers are guilty of this. Helicopter Mothers make Bpd children as much as neglectful or abusive Mothers.

So in some cases borderlines remain infantilized because... .why?  What factor arrests their development even as they age? Shouldn't the motivation to mature, to individuate, be innate?  I suppose there is always a biological component which is why some have suspected a genetic factor. 

I've always tended to believe that the borderlines who present no traumatic history are simply suppressing the memory or purposefully hiding this history.  Then again I've only met a very small number of borderlines or people who I've suspected to be borderline; and I've only gained the confidence of a very small subset of those - but of those, I have reason to believe they sustained an abandonment/betrayal trauma.  I wonder if sufficient denigrating interaction might be the equivalent of an abandonment/betrayal trauma? 

BPD is the failure to separate / individuate from primary caretakers. Consequently, they seek out replications of caretakers found in people who need perfect mirroring.

Many BPD partners are also suffering from immaturity. They also have developmental deficits in their thinking, and they project these onto the unknowing Borderline in order to cast off their own shame and utilize the defects of the Borderline as their combination mirroring agent and marketeer for their false self.

When the false self fails from imperfect mirroring; a huge narcissistic injury ensues. If this causes a jump into a new relationship to soothe the ego and calm the reactive need -then rightfully, the Borderline withdraws. (One of the signs of immaturity and impulsivity is multiple partners overlapping.)

There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.

If there is only detachment, then why the accusations as is often reported?  Why the distortion campaigns?  Isn't the devaluing behavior an effort to self protect?

... .Using a person to act as a mirror objectifies that person until they become exhausted with feelings of bondage and slavery.

The subsequent retreat from this is not a devaluation, but rather a self fulfilling prophecy, that comes from selling themselves out to be used and the failure of individuation. Never to have the safety and security of being loved for who they are because they haven't found themselves in development. It is a repetition compulsion.

Borderlines often pick partners who do this because it proves their self-defeating actions. It is an unconscious response and one that takes many years of therapy to overcome.  Idea

So they put on a false self in order to find love but cannot feel loved because they are not loved for who they are... because they do not yet know who they are... .and I guess the rub is that they do not believe they can find out who they are without the safety and security of being loved?
Logged

Reforming
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 768



« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2016, 06:31:53 AM »

Echoing some of the other posters I think the devaluation and discard process is complex and varied. I don't believe there's a neat - one fits all - answer to this.

Is devaluation / discard unique to couples where there's a personality disorder involved?

I certainly know some people that are not disordered but who still devalued their partners when their relationship ended. It's pretty common behaviour. How many of us idealise our partners until a relationship ends or goes wrong?

I also think that PDs are not just caused by environmental factors or faulty parenting. I think genetic vulnerability plays a big part in their behaviour. There are many children who grow up dysfunctional families who do not develop personality disorders. To me it seems much more likely that PDs result from a combination of environmental and genetic factors.

I agree with Schwing that some highly sensitive people present huge challenges for committed and loving parents who often struggle to find the support and information they need to meet that challenge.

Reforming



Logged

HoneyB33
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 143


« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2016, 03:59:14 PM »

All those triggers make sense to me, I can understand how yelling by a SO could be equated to trauma from a father figure for a BPD. However I never really yelled to much, towards the end, our fights during the honeymoon phase had more yelling. By the time we were reaching the end, I had mostly just given up on fighting, it never changed anything, at that point whenever she flipped out or was mean, I just left and said I wouldn't be around that. Her behavior became so terrible I couldn't deal with it. Then finally when set said she would rather spend my bday with other people than me, and that she wasn't a good person, it was over. I barely even yelled then I just stated that our relationship had been so messed up and sarcastically thanked her for ruining us. Her drinking, and strange push/pulls would have exhausted anyone. I don't know, I really just done know where it all went bad.

There was only one time during my relationship I actually yelled at her. However, she took it to heart even after I apologized. That was in October last year. Apparently, I "yelled" at her again in April, which she claimed was her breaking point. I was just like... .wow nitpicky much? Let's just list 4-5 incidents, including the October one, over the period of 18 months and say that I'm an angry person with bad temper.

Obviously, logic doesn't work on her because she insisted that she doesn't want a relationship like her parents' when in reality we were far from it. If she wants a person that can't show human emotions, she should probably date a vegetable.

I feel like we dated the same person, Leonis. My ex completely reacted to my anger, and totally made me feel like I was some terrible person for the very few times I slipped up. She also told me that she didn't want to be like her parents. That was one of the last "reasons" she gave me in the discard, when we too were nothing like them. It was very much like she wanted me to show no human emotion, basically because she had none beyond being "hurt" with me every 5 seconds, and trying to cast me in some horrible light every time I made a mistake.
Logged

SummerStorm
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Friend
Posts: 926



« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2016, 09:21:09 AM »

There are probably a lot of things that cause it, and they'll more than likely change their mind 50 times about what caused it because they aren't self-aware and have no clue about the consequences of their actions. 

One thing sweet tooth mentioned on the first page is something that I can relate to.  My BPD friend went to college to be a teacher, did her student teaching, got a long-term sub position, tried to commit suicide a few days before the school year ended, decided she's not fit to be a teacher (very true), and is now working at a convenience store and is living in a total dump of an apartment.  I just finished my 8th year of teaching, got my master's degree, and bought a house at the end of last summer.  In her eyes, I'm better than her, and I think that's what causes her to devalue and discard.  Her current friends are all co-workers, and none of them went to college.  I got my diploma in the mail the other day and sent a picture of it to three people, including her, on Snapchat.  She's the only one who didn't reply.  I posted a picture on FB of me holding it, and it got more likes than anything I've ever posted on FB, but she didn't like it or comment on it.  And even more than that, it got more likes than anything she's ever posted, and she has nearly three times the number of friends that I have.  So, in her mind, I'm worth caring about, and she isn't.  We all know that social media isn't a real indicator of anything (half of the people who liked it are former students who are probably just excited to be able to like a teacher's post), but she gets jealous of EVERYONE I talk to, including my own parents.

Her mom recently brought me up in conversation and started saying bad things about me, just to see what my BPD friend would say.  Her reply was, "She is kind, smart, loving, and really fun to be around."  And that's the exact opposite of how she sees herself. 

But I know a lot of it also has to do with fear of engulfment and fear of abandonment. 

She also hates that I always want to "talk about everything."  Heaven forbid I'd want to talk about something deeper than video games and TV shows. 

She tells me a lot that I need to "calm down," even though I'm completely calm and rational at the time.  But I think that explains all of her stories about abuse.  Everything is made out to be much more than it really is.  Her perception is way off. 

Logged

So when will this end it goes on and on/Over and over and over again/Keep spinning around I know that it won't stop/Till I step down from this for good - Lifehouse "Sick Cycle Carousel"
Leonis
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 421



« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2016, 10:45:06 AM »

I feel like we dated the same person, Leonis. My ex completely reacted to my anger, and totally made me feel like I was some terrible person for the very few times I slipped up. She also told me that she didn't want to be like her parents. That was one of the last "reasons" she gave me in the discard, when we too were nothing like them. It was very much like she wanted me to show no human emotion, basically because she had none beyond being "hurt" with me every 5 seconds, and trying to cast me in some horrible light every time I made a mistake.

The thing is, the more I interacted with her post-breakup, the more apparent it was that a lot of the things she's accused me of seemed ironic. It was almost as if she was projecting her flaws on me.

She recently told me that perhaps anger was the wrong term and "negativity" was more appropriate. Why? Because she noted that I always start off our face-to-face conversations with something "negative", i.e. something I read in the news, I got frustrated at work, and so on. However, she was willing to ignore all the fun stuff and quality times we spent together as a couple in between.

The irony here is that she is the one being negative by accentuating it. SILENTLY. I admit, that's a personal flaw I should improve upon since I don't realize I'm doing it, but to never tell me about it and just hold it in until she couldn't take it any more is complete and utter bull crap.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2021 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
Andi1956
Anondad
Cnvi
doghouse
drained1996
EyesUp
Harri
JD2028
lovenature
Mac5
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
old97
P.F.Change
Skip
snowglobe
Swimmy55
Teno
Turkish
wendydarling

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!