Light Bulb Day

[earlgrey]

Today was a good day. 

Things started off well and went rapidly to pieces.

But out of the chaos I understood something.

The extremely sensitive nature of my uB/NPD W. Duh! 

A simple gesture from me (attention away from W onto D7) triggered W.

A short while later I was getting grief... .but the route to the grief was now clear and not indiscriminate.

I'm guessing all the cr@p that comes my way is 'deserved' because I will have done something to cause her pain... .but mostly I don't see it.

My thanks to bpdfamily, and a big thx to CS, because I think I am moving forward (today anyhow!)

[Lucky Jim]

Hey earl, what was your lightbulb moment?  Maybe I am missing something.  LJ

[earlgrey]

sorry... .what I saw as a  was cause and effect.

Often W. will have bad behaviour, but it would appear from my observations yesterday morning that she felt justified in giving me a hard time because I had done something 'bad'.

The something 'bad' from me was, to take attention away from W. and onto D7. (Triggering abandonment fears perhaps)

Now in my book giving innocent attention to D7 is a normal part of family life... .NO IT ISN'T IF THAT MEANS ME (W.) NO LONGER BEING CENTRE OF ATTENTION.

[earlgrey]

morning LJ. My last post went off prematurely... .oops.

But overnight I had some more ideas.

Put as simply as I can at the moment... .much of our (me non W. uN/BPD) chaos is to do with my doing something 'good'* which W. feels as threatening. Never understood that before.

* Good here means cooking pancakes for kids as an example.

So I can go around walking on eggshells to avoid triggering…... nah!

What I question now, is, how much of the pwB/NPD’s world is disturbed by our (nons) unintentional triggering. Without out nasty triggers are they OK? Or do they trigger themselves quite a lot?

So if walking on eggshells is out, they are going to get triggered. Period. And we will have put in place boundaries to try to encourage different behavior once triggered.

BUT, the whole BPD family would seem to agree that pwBPD don’t get better easily, so boundaries are going to be challenged every time there is an ‘event’.

Kids taking sweets (candy) without permission can ‘easily’ be taught the rules. But pw BPD do not respond so well, their triggers are well embedded and their reactions are on autopilot (my experience).

So boundaries are good for trying one’s best to cope with chaos. I do not think the boundaries will get rid of the chaos…...

I do not want to cope with chaos. I think that is why slowly, very slowly I am getting to understand what is going on. I want to strengthen my resolve and belief (hope?) and that at some point I will be able to break away from the chaos and live peacefully.

And achieve a healthy separation from an unhealthy environment. Easy eh! 

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi EG-

morning LJ. My last post went off prematurely... .oops.

But overnight I had some more ideas.

Put as simply as I can at the moment... .much of our (me non W. uN/BPD) chaos is to do with my doing something 'good'* which W. feels as threatening. Never understood that before.

* Good here means cooking pancakes for kids as an example.

So I can go around walking on eggshells to avoid triggering…... nah!

What I question now, is, how much of the pwB/NPD’s world is disturbed by our (nons) unintentional triggering. Without out nasty triggers are they OK? Or do they trigger themselves quite a lot?

Borderlines form attachments to complete themselves, and for her there isn't the line between you and her that you perceive, it's more like one person, unconsciously.  And we all do that right?  It's not what happens, it's what we make it mean, and when we make something mean something 'bad', we'll get negatively triggered, it's just more extreme for a borderline.

So if walking on eggshells is out, they are going to get triggered. Period. And we will have put in place boundaries to try to encourage different behavior once triggered.

BUT, the whole BPD family would seem to agree that pwBPD don’t get better easily, so boundaries are going to be challenged every time there is an ‘event’.

Kids taking sweets (candy) without permission can ‘easily’ be taught the rules. But pw BPD do not respond so well, their triggers are well embedded and their reactions are on autopilot (my experience).

So boundaries are good for trying one’s best to cope with chaos. I do not think the boundaries will get rid of the chaos…...

I do not want to cope with chaos. I think that is why slowly, very slowly I am getting to understand what is going on. I want to strengthen my resolve and belief (hope?) and that at some point I will be able to break away from the chaos and live peacefully.

Living peacefully is a good goal.  Setting and enforcing boundaries will work in making you feel better, you take control and decide how much crap you're going to tolerate, although you're right, it won't get rid of the chaos, in fact it will probably make it worse, because setting a boundary can be interpreted as you moving away from a borderline, abandoning her.  If the two of you need to be attached, the way she sees it, and you set a boundary, you are severing that attachment to an extent, hence the triggering.

Often W. will have bad behaviour, but it would appear from my observations yesterday morning that she felt justified in giving me a hard time because I had done something 'bad'.

Yes, you've acted in a way that was unacceptable to her, so now you need to be 'punished', and she's completely justified in doing that.  A way to feel better about that is realize you are in control, in fact you can tell her that if you want; if everything she does is in reaction to what you do, then you can control her with your behavior, yes?  Now you can relinquish that control by walking on eggshells, trying to behave in a way that doesn't trigger her, or you can just do what you want, realizing certain things are going to set her off, and notice the control you have.  That may make you feel better.  Another tack can be to say, when she tells you "how things are" is to say "I'm not sure I agree with that"; injecting doubt into her viewpoint will likely trigger her, and if you do it a few times the results will become a little predictable, which will help you tolerate the chaos better.

[earlgrey]

H2H many thanks... .

slightly OT Had a particulaly torrid summer a couple of years ago and I put Abbey Road on loop.

That was good. 

[Lucky Jim]

So if walking on eggshells is out, they are going to get triggered. Period. And we will have put in place boundaries to try to encourage different behavior once triggered.

Hey earlgrey,

Agree w/what you are saying about the dynamic of your r/s.  I would add that, when it comes to triggering, it's impossible to know what will be a trigger because it's a moving target.  In other words, I thought I could make progress w/my BPDxW by identifying the triggers and avoiding them; what I didn't account for is that the triggers are constantly changing, so my efforts were pointless.  It's this unpredictability as to what will be a trigger that makes a BPD r/s so incredibly stressful, because you never know when you're going to cause an emotional eruption, which can come out of nowhere. I used to say that, in my marriage, a storm cloud could appear out of a clear blue sky, without warning.  It raises one's anxiety level because you know with certainty that the volcano is going to blow again, but you never know why or when, which means that one is in a constant state of stress while expecting the axe to fall.  At least that was my experience.  Hope this helps!

LuckyJim

[C.Stein]

So boundaries are good for trying one’s best to cope with chaos. I do not think the boundaries will get rid of the chaos…...

I see this as less an issue of boundaries themselves but rather how those boundaries are enforced.  Enforcement causes the problems and therefore this is where adjustments can be made to minimize the blow back.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I love it!

We are living in crazy town. Good thing we have maps like this bpdfamily.

I had a moment a while ago when I brought up an omelet breakfast (I make a good one!) to my wife in bed.  It was really good, nice, thoughtful, and represented a lot of effort.  It made her sad, mad, hurt and angry.

Why?

According to her, I was only doing it to be nice, not because I love her.

At that point I realized I was not the only one to blame for a bad marriage

[earlgrey]

This has stuck…often I feel I have made progress only for things to regress.

The simple idea that I am causing the chaos is a good one for me to work on. Yes, as H2H said it (my actions as triggers) gives you control. I am not strictly after control, but a bit of ability to manage would seem like a great step forward.

This may be over simplifying our world with pwBPD, but I am happy to go with our actions cause the chaos. I am responsible……

One thing I have always struggled with is my role in this mess. Yes I fit many of the codependant traits, but looking at the rest of my existence it doesn’t normally get me into this much trouble.

But mixing codependency up with a pwB/NPD you’ve got a Lennon/McCartney, Coke/Menthos all over again…the sum much bigger than the parts.

And once mixed up into a huge mess, it has been very confusing for me to understand how messed up I really am, and how messed up my SO is. Happy to say things are becoming clearer.

IF these ideas stick around in my mind, I believe they will help find the best way ahead, and the other barriers to progress, fear, uncertainty, not wanting to hurt others, will become subordinate.

Hope some of this makes sense to you, it does to me and I am slowly beginning to get my head around things.

Thank you bpdfamily.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey eg-

The simple idea that I am causing the chaos is a good one for me to work on. Yes, as H2H said it (my actions as triggers) gives you control. I am not strictly after control, but a bit of ability to manage would seem like a great step forward.

This may be over simplifying our world with pwBPD, but I am happy to go with our actions cause the chaos. I am responsible……

To clarify, you're not causing the chaos, the disorder is, the way she's wired.  And that ain't changing, but what you have control over is what you make it mean.  If we get into the mode where we're going to fix and rescue, make her world full of contentment and stability, we can get caught up in the chaos, easy to do because it's unpredictable and irrational, and if we center our identity around that we call it codependency.  The simple shift to realizing whatever she does is going to be reactionary to what you do, for her own reasons, gives you a sense of control, a taking back of your power, the goal being not to try and control the uncontrollable, but to control how much you get caught up in it and how much it affects you.

But mixing codependency up with a pwB/NPD you’ve got a Lennon/McCartney, Coke/Menthos all over again…the sum much bigger than the parts.

And once mixed up into a huge mess, it has been very confusing for me to understand how messed up I really am, and how messed up my SO is. Happy to say things are becoming clearer.

And there's the gift of the relationship.  I heard a quote the other day I like: People are like tea, you never know how strong they are until you put them in hot water.

IF these ideas stick around in my mind, I believe they will help find the best way ahead, and the other barriers to progress, fear, uncertainty, not wanting to hurt others, will become subordinate.

And there it is, a focus and a directed mind; we create our own heaven or our own hell, depending on what we make things mean.

[C.Stein]

To clarify, you're not causing the chaos, the disorder is, the way she's wired.

I'll echo this EG.  You are not responsible for her chaos.  What you are responsible for is how you interact with and contribute to that chaos.  Your own behavior can make the chaos worse or better but it will never go away.   I think the important thing to do is not make her chaos your own.  If you allow yourself to get caught up in the storm you can get lost.

[earlgrey]

Thanks guys... .I get what you're saying; I am not responsible for her chaos

"Cause" may not be the right word, but trigger or prime mover better parhaps.

I can activate or otherwise HER stuff, and for the first time I actually feel a sense that her stuff is her stuff and my stuff is my stuff.

Up until nowish I have been caught up not knowing there was a difference.

[C.Stein]

I can activate or otherwise HER stuff, and for the first time I actually feel a sense that her stuff is her stuff and my stuff is my stuff.

If you can objectively observe her behavior I think it will be easier to stay outside the primary chaos.  When you internalize her chaos and make it your own you get caught up in the perpetuation of an unhealthy dynamic.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Great idea there.  I recognize too that my desire to serve and give to others is noble and admirable, and would be cherished in a healthy relationship. However, combined with a self-absorbed abuser and it's a formula for my destruction.

[Lucky Jim]

 

But mixing codependency up with a pwB/NPD you’ve got a Lennon/McCartney, Coke/Menthos all over again…the sum much bigger than the parts.

 

earlgrey:  Agree.  when a caretaker crosses paths a pwBPD, it's a perfect storm.

If you can objectively observe her behavior I think it will be easier to stay outside the primary chaos.  When you internalize her chaos and make it your own you get caught up in the perpetuation of an unhealthy dynamic.

C. Stein:  Agree.  I like to say that poison is harmless if you don't ingest it.

I recognize too that my desire to serve and give to others is noble and admirable, and would be cherished in a healthy relationship. However, combined with a self-absorbed abuser and it's a formula for my destruction.

Samwize: Agree.  My BPDxW took advantage of my good qualities (kindness, patience, caring) and used them against me.  The bottom line is that on some level she didn't value those qualities.  Instead, she belittled and mocked them.  This was a recipe for depression and I nearly drowned in the BPD soup!

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

If you can objectively observe her behavior I think it will be easier to stay outside the primary chaos.

This is key. I'm finally learning to observe, not absorb. I liken living with a pwBPD to horse training. In both cases, you're dealing with a large, unpredictable and dangerous animal with autonomy and self-serving behavior.

In the case of the horse, it's easier to realize that we don't understand what exactly the horse is thinking, reacting to, choosing to do. However by learning about horses in general and observing this particular horse, we can more safely figure out how to stay out of its way and thereby not get injured, and perhaps persuade it to do what we have in mind.

It's easy to forget that our loved ones have personality disorders when they're behaving well, but just like with horses, I've learned I have to always be on guard for erratic behavior out of the blue. That said, it doesn't mean that I have to put up barriers or be in a chronic state of anxiety, wondering when the next rearing, bucking or biting event will happen. But it means that I know what is possible and to have boundaries to protect myself from possible injury, whether physical, in the case of the horse (or some humans) or emotional, in the case of my pwBPD.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I visualized it like this:

Pretend as though I'm an alright swimmer, not swim-team material, but not like a rock either.  If I see someone who needs help, I'd jump in and try to save them of course.  If not swim, I'd try to extend a stick, or throw a float.  If the victim doesn't take it, or flails around desperately, I can't do much more.  If I jump in to help the drowning victim and they grab me and panic, two people will drown.  That's why they say to kick the victim off if they grab you, or let them sink and pass out - then get them.

I told my wife that's how I am with mental health.  I have learned and developed enough to get me there, but, I can't save her, or solve her issues.   


Footnote: I thought she got the message, but, two nights ago, she was disparaging me because she says, unlike me, she can't sit by and watch our kids drown in emotional illness.  Projection much?

[C.Stein]

I liken it to driving a car.  As our driving skills develop we become more confident and less anxious about driving.  We are aware that at any moment we could get in an accident because we cannot control how others drive, but we can learn how to avoid most accidents by improving our observation and driving skills.  As a result we no longer feel anxious about driving.

A relationship with a borderline is much the same where we can improve our observation and communication skills in order to mostly avoid the "accidents" and as a result relieve our anxiety.   

[SamwizeGamgee]

I liken it to driving a car.  As our driving skills develop we become more confident and less anxious about driving.  We are aware that at any moment we could get in an accident because we cannot control how others drive, but we can learn how to avoid most accidents by improving our observation and driving skills.  As a result we no longer feel anxious about driving.

A relationship with a borderline is much the same where we can improve our observation and communication skills in order to mostly avoid the "accidents" and as a result relieve our anxiety.   

That's a very good observation.  I have seen that my wife's behavior has ostensibly gotten better as a result of my doing better and learning so much.  I feel somewhat though, that this blames the victim and makes them responsible for abuse. 

Admittedly, I should have known about my own mental health from youth.  Instead, I got into a relationship with an unhealthy malformed person as an adult, so, it' my own fault, and should be held responsible for the abuse and suffering.  I should learn to drive better using your analogy.  However, to go along with the analogy, I have driven long enough and far enough to know that the other driver is dangerous -- and I am here on the "Conflicted" board because I don't want to drive with this person anymore. 

I've seen enough "accidents" that it's pushing my anxiety up about "driving."  I don't see the benefit to driving on this track at all.

[C.Stein]

Sometimes it is impossible to avoid the accident when the other driver seems hell bent on causing one.  There comes a point where you have to decide if you are going stop using the road that driver frequents or find a way to minimize the damage from the accident when it inevitably occurs.   Thing is you love this road even though it can be dangerous.  It you can come away from the accident with just scraped paint or a minor dent then you might decide the damage is worth it.  This kind of damage can be repaired, but when the accidents cause major damage to your car then perhaps it is best to take the next available exit off that road?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Sometimes it is impossible to avoid the accident when the other driver seems hell bent on causing one.  There comes a point where you have to decide if you are going stop using the road that driver frequents or find a way to minimize the damage from the accident when it inevitably occurs.   Thing is you love this road even though it can be dangerous.  It you can come away from the accident with just scraped paint or a minor dent then you might decide the damage is worth it.  This kind of damage can be repaired, but when the accidents cause major damage to your car then perhaps it is best to take the next available exit off that road?

If my kids weren't standing so close to the road, I'd be gone in 60 seconds, exit or not.

[C.Stein]

If my kids weren't standing so close to the road, I'd be gone in 60 seconds, exit or not.

Sounds like you are on a toll road and the price to get off of it is too high.