Recycling vs "Out of sight, out of mind"

[obliv326]

So, I have a question... .

Having been on the forums here, I've noticed that a lot of the advice is to give space, walk away, go "nc", etc. I have a pwBPD that I deeply love. She decided to go nc with me for a variety of completely immature and illogical reasons.

At the same time, I've heard that pwBPD have no "object permanence", and if you are not in their life, you're basically non existent.

Bu I've also heard that they have "engulfment" issues, and once you aren't around and they realize they miss you, they are pretty much going to recycle you and come back.

Those seem to be two disparate theories. It would seem to make sense, if the former is true, to reach out to them at some point. I have been nc with mine for 4 weeks. We did not part on bad terms, but she said she needed time for "self reflection".  I love her deeply and want her to come back. But if I am "out of sight, out of mind" will she literally forget I exist? Is there any possible way to deal with someone like this beyond just letting them do whatever their damaged brain decides is the easiest path, which seems to be what BPD really tries to do? It seems like to me there should be some way to plant a seed in their minds that will eventually result in the right thing happening.

[Reforming]

Hi Obliv

I'm sorry to hear that you're going through such a painful time.

No Contact is discussed a lot on this forum. Some people have found it hugely helpful but it does not fit everyone.

I think it's best used when you make decision that continued contact is harmful or destructive to you or when a relationship has ended. It should not a way of punishing your partner for their perceived misbehaviour.

My understanding object permanence is that this ability normal evolves during early childhood, when an infant learns to create an internal picture of their parent / mother. They can then use this internal object to soothe and reassure themselves when the external figure is not physically present. In other words their mother still exists even if she's not with them. We do this all the time when we picture or think about a loved one who is away from us.

I think the theory is that with those suffering from BPD, an attachment disorder, this ability has not fully developed because it's been disrupted by environmental and genetic factors. So BPDs struggle to maintain a stable or sustained internal image of their loved ones when they are not present.

This can have a range of implications. They might seek a connection with another person when they're not with their partner because they feel abandoned and they can also detach and move on to another relationship very quickly.

It's also worth remembering that BPDs have a deep terror of engulfment so at times being close to someone can be overwhelming. Hence the push pull

From what you've said your pwBPD has asked for no contact. It's very natural to question her motives do you think is it appropriate or healthy for you or her to overrule her wishes and seek contact?

What you feel is the right thing for you may not be the right thing for her. Ultimately you cannot control her behaviour or maker choices for her

What do you think will be the long term outcome of renewing contact?

Reforming

[obliv326]

Tbh, I don't know. It's been 4 weeks today, and we didn't end on particularly bad terms. She said she needed to do some reflecting, and I think she was for awhile. I think there is a way that I could try and contact her that probably wouldn't be completely negative. On the other hand, if I do, it will be on her terms. If she comes back, and I think there's a decent chance... .I was giving her money, and she works in a school and doesn't have a summer job, so if nothing else she'll start to see the fact that I gave her help as a nice and caring gesture... .Then it will bode much better.

But damn, I miss her so much. And I don't understand why she did it completely. And the reasons she gave me made no sense... .So it's tempting to try and contact her just to let her know That the perceptions she had weren't correct, even though I know this will probably not do any good... .So, logically I know it's best to just not talk to her until she wants to, but it sucks knowing that I care for her deeply, and there are lots of people in her life who don't... .But those people aren't kicked out of her life. I guess I can just hope that at some point she realizes that I cared for her and was good for her. She seemed to be doing some good reflection, so I guess that could happen. But it doesn't seem to be getting much easier, even though I've been doing things to improve myself, and I've been dating... .A lot, actually... .

But I still just miss her and it hurts.

[Reforming]

I can imagine how hard this must be for you.

There is no quick fix solution here. Do you mind if I ask what reasons she gave you for withdrawing?

Reforming

[obliv326]

Well, she gave me a few. Initially she said it was bc one of my friends was making her feel guilty about some stuff she had done, and she somehow thought that just ignoring me woukd make that go away (it probably would have made it worse, since the friend was really just calling her out for lying).  I was able to get my friend to leave her alone, and then she said she needed time to do some self reflecting. She said that there were a number of things she felt were overwhelming (her summer situation, her future, and my "affection" being one of them). She said it meant a lot to her that I was able to get my friend off of her back, but she needed "silence" so she could decide what she wanted to do. I asked if we were going to talk again, and she said maybe... .She wanted to say "eventually" but didn't know how she was feeling.

[Reforming]

I don't know the full complexity of your relationship, but the difficulty with your friend doesn't seem enough grounds for her withdrawal.

At the moment she seems to be dictating the terms of your relationship without giving your needs and feelings the respect and consideration they deserve. Do think that's a fair appraisal? Again I obviously don't know the full details of what's been happening between you so sorry if I'm making assumptions.

She seems to have put you and the relationship on hold. How do you feel about that? Do you think you have done anything to merit this? Do you feel she could take any steps to improve the situation?

Reforming

[RPwhitefrost]

This sounds so much like my concern with my ex. I love her more than anything else in this world, but we both agreed to take some time before we speak again. Technically, she broke the NC yesterday, but that was only because she got sick and told me if I felt sick to go to the doctors. I said thanks and asked if we could continue the NC, and she agreed.

Her reasons for dumping me made no sense. She loved me, and always treated me great. Thought I was the most amazing guy she ever met, the first person to ever truly love her, other than her father who died last year. She's physically attracted to me, loved the sex, and considers me her best friend. But she broke up with me because something wasn't working apparently. I think I "loved her too much," and "suffocated her."

I'm so afraid that she'll use this time apart to convince herself that we were nothing, when, in reality— at least for the moments she was happy, i.e. our entire relationship until last Thursday— I was her world.

[RPwhitefrost]

Well, she gave me a few. Initially she said it was bc one of my friends was making her feel guilty about some stuff she had done, and she somehow thought that just ignoring me woukd make that go away (it probably would have made it worse, since the friend was really just calling her out for lying).  I was able to get my friend to leave her alone, and then she said she needed time to do some self reflecting. She said that there were a number of things she felt were overwhelming (her summer situation, her future, and my "affection" being one of them). She said it meant a lot to her that I was able to get my friend off of her back, but she needed "silence" so she could decide what she wanted to do. I asked if we were going to talk again, and she said maybe... .She wanted to say "eventually" but didn't know how she was feeling.

The whole "affection" thing is what seems to have driven my ex away. When she told me about her BPD, she made me promise not to look it up. I wish I had. Because I did everything in my power to assure her I wasn't leaving, not because I would've done that stuff normally, but only to reassure her I'd be there always ("always," as I knew, was impossible to promise, but it seemed as though it was what she wanted to hear). That seems to be what pushed her away.

Same thing with the future stuff. She says she wants to be "selfish" for the first time in her life and worry about only herself. Work on a book. Idk.

[obliv326]

@reforming... .Obviously, like most things, it's tough to distill the details down to a few sentences. I did put a couple more posts here that detailed what happened, but basically I have her an ultimatum a few weeks back, she didn't respond, and we essentially broke up, but I expected her to come back. I didn't know at the time that she was BPD, but I started research and it made a lot of sense.

I realized that by giving her an ultimatum prob triggered abandonment issues, and while we were broken up she did some things that she knew would hurt... .

I decided that, since I had given the ultimatum I should be the one to contact her and try to patch things up. At first she didn't want to, but later walked that back a little. I think she cares about me a lot... .She has said as much... .But I think she got a little infatuated with a guy she met while we were broken up and has kind of replaced me a bit. That hurts pretty bad, but I don't think it's that serious and it's not a very good fit, so while it may have had something to do with things I don't think it's a long term threat.

But that's what my friend was saying that caused her to snap. We were talking and getting along, and they had some email exchange and she seems to change. At the time, I had also started seeing someone. So maybe all of that combined caused her to snap? Because it really seemed to come out of the blue. She said she felt threatened by my friends, and that while their actions were my fault, they occurred bc of me... .So if I was gone then they would have no reason to bother her.

I should say that, as briefly as I can, one of my friends caught her lying, and felt it was her responsibility to let me know. And after that, my friend, who lives in the same city as her (it was an LDR, if that weren't already clear) kept an eye on her and would tell me if she caught her in a lie. I never asked my friend to do this, and in fact asked her to stop. But she was worried that I was involved with a bad person and didn't want me getting hurt. So she kept telling me. My GF felt threatened by that, understandably, and I think the combination of the argument/breakup, my friend telling her that she thought some of her actions were pretty horrible, my meeting someone, and the temporary infatuation with this other guy (he lives in my town and is also long distance) was what caused her to reach that point.

For the record, I basically ended my friendship with the girl who was telling me about her, and a few other friends who didn't like her either. And I was able to persuade them that it would be a really bad idea to keep doing so. When I talked to my Gf for the last time, this was what I was telling her... .These people wouldn't be talking to me anymore. She told me that it meant a lot to her that I did this for her, but she still wanted her silence. That's when I asked if we would talk again and she said maybe. She wanted to say eventually, etc... .

I did get the feeling that maybe she was feeling a bit engulfed by me. I wasn't forcing contact, but I was trying to help her as much as j could. I sent her some groceries, a fan, some money... .And I think she felt like I was babysitting or something. Even though I never asked her for anything in exchange for any of that. It was the only thing I could think of to try and smooth over the situation.


I should point out that she told me that she wasn't just cutting me off, but was doing so with everyone. I'm not sure if she did or not, but regardless that was 4 weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure she's started talking to some of her other friends.

Which leaves me with "maybe/eventually". 

@RPWhitefrost... .Damn. I'm sorry to hear about your trouble. I know it's heartbreaking to go through that.

From what I understand, engulfment is a real problem. I think the mere fact that I love this girl, and not even my actions so much but that fact alone... .Is what caused it. Ever since our break up, when she was willing to talk but wanted space, I've given that to her. She can hardly say that I was demanding of her attention. I just think that the knowledge that I had deep feelings for her was more than she could handle. It sounds like maybe that's what's happening with yours as well.

I hope things work out for you. Just be strong and try to work on yourself in the meantime

[Reforming]

Hi Obliv

Sounds like there's a lot going on and more than a bit of triangulation. You, your ex, her current bf, your female friend, your other friends that you've cut off and you mentioned hooking with someone else briefly - is that right

Throw in a LDR, another man in the picture, strain or loss of some of your friendships and a degree of financial inequality.

Putting the possibility of BPD aside for a moment to my mind LDRs have a low success for lots of reasons that you're probably aware of and not just for people with BPDs.

Romantic relationships that destroy friendships would be a red flag for me whatever the rights and wrongs of your different friends and pwBPD.

Right now while you may want to renew things it doesn't sound like you're in the best circumstances for getting back together. At the moment your pwBPD is in another relationship in another city and what you feel is infatuation could feel very different for her and it's her call. I know it's hard but ultimately it's her choice to be with someone else right now. That may change and it may not…

I realise that you may have the best of intentions but do you think sending ex unsolicited gifts, money and food could be perceived as an attempt to renew contact? If an ex did it to me I'd feel engulfed and uncomfortable.

The question is what are you going to do now. Do you think it's healthy or feasible to try and force your way back into her life?

What would you do if you didn't think she was BPD?

Reforming

[Oncebitten]

I have been on this forum for a couple of months and it still amazes me how the same story repeats over and over again.  pwBPD seem to push for more and more until they reach their limit and then the just cut you off completely.  There is never a happy medium with them.

Obliv, i am going through the same thing right now maybe a couple steps further down the road than you., LDR that has ended badly, she went no contact and has painted me black.  Take it from someone who tried to force his way back into her life... .it doesn't end well.

[obliv326]

Yes, there certainly are a lot of moving parts. I do appreciate you trying to keep everything together in your head... .

A couple things... .The guy isn't really a relationship, I don't think. I'm pretty sure he was just someone she was sleeping with... .Also, she's moving back here for the summer. The fact that she seems to be actively seeking dates and stuff would seem to indicate that what they were doing wasn't serious... .Although it still hurts me like hell.

Also, when I have her money and things, we were in contact. I was hoping to undo some of the damage that was done, but I did do it because I care about her and want her to be okay first and foremost. At any rate, shes decided that she needs space for the time being.

I did send her a text bc I had a death in the family that really affected me. She replied after a few days and said she's very sorry for my loss, and she does care, but she can't have me around. I think what she means is that she needs space... .But that was an unfortunate and kind of hurtful choice of words.

When I asked her if she could explain, she got rude. No reason. She just didn't want me around. Since I wasn't sure if we'd ever talk again, I told her that it would really help me if she could explain. I had been beating myself up pretty bad and I'd just like to know.

So of course she got snippy. I would think asking for some kind of explanation would be pretty standard. And I would have even accepted "I don't really know right now" (she did say it wasn't another guy. Given her brusque nature during the rest of the conversation I believe her.

She just kept throwing in my face that I had to respect her decision. Ok great highlight was that "she didn't owe me anything just bc of hiw I treated her" which I disagree with. And that "I had done some nice things for her" which kind of downplays the true nature of what I did. I basically kept her afloat for 6 months.

Of course, the fact that I was dealing with the death of a relative didn't matter.  Her desire for "space" was really the only issue. Granted, I have not, with one exception, initiated any contact with her since late March. And none at all for a month. But somehow my feelings, and what I think most people would say were a pretty reasonable and mature request to just try and understand what happened was somehow out of line.

She did tell me that she was seeking medical help for her issues. I don't know if this will include BPD or not. She has been diagnosed with PTSD, which manifests with trichotillomania, and OCD. But at least she's getting help for those things.

She also said she would talk to me "when she's ready for me". I don't know what to make of that. I told her that was okay. I told her a joke, and said not to take five years or anything. She said okay.

The next day I did send her a text telling her I didn't mean to force her into a conversation she didn't want to have. And that I respected her desire for space, and that I appreciated her condolences. I don't expect to hear back.

I'm kind of torn right now. I deeply love this girl. If I wait for her and she does come back... .And honestly, I do think she will. I really have been better to her then anone she's ever known. Probably including her parents... .I'd love to see if it can work.

But if not... .If she's disengaging with me so she can do what she wants and not have to feel guilty about me... .Then frankly, I want to vent on her. She deserves to feel terrible for what she did. And if I'm not going to come out of this with anything, then she should be the one accepting the consequences of her actions. Not me.

At this point, though, I'll probably sit tight. I'm sure it will be a few weeks at the very least if and when she gets back to me. In the meantime, I'm having some trouble not taking it personally, and that fact makes me want to lash out. But I know she won't even pay attention to what I'm saying and will turn it into some kind of reason to split me even further black.

But hey... .I appreciate the support and comments. Any clarity or advice is more than appreciated

[FallBack!Monster]

So, I have a question... .

Having been on the forums here, I've noticed that a lot of the advice is to give space, walk away, go "nc", etc. I have a pwBPD that I deeply love. She decided to go nc with me for a variety of completely immature and illogical reasons.

At the same time, I've heard that pwBPD have no "object permanence", and if you are not in their life, you're basically non existent.

Bu I've also heard that they have "engulfment" issues, and once you aren't around and they realize they miss you, they are pretty much going to recycle you and come back.

Those seem to be two disparate theories. It would seem to make sense, if the former is true, to reach out to them at some point. I have been nc with mine for 4 weeks. We did not part on bad terms, but she said she needed time for "self reflection".  I love her deeply and want her to come back. But if I am "out of sight, out of mind" will she literally forget I exist? Is there any possible way to deal with someone like this beyond just letting them do whatever their damaged brain decides is the easiest path, which seems to be what BPD really tries to do? It seems like to me there should be some way to plant a seed in their minds that will eventually result in the right thing happening.

Its so weird that I was thinking of starting this topic today. I wasn't aware that someone had already questioned it.  ANYWAY, I am trying skills that I have learned on forums with topics similar to what we discuss on this site.  As well as some things that I have learned from this here... .

I also read the same... .If you contact them... .it triggers them because it means you still care and it empowers them to keep ignoring you. so they will stay away... .If you go NC, they eventually come looking for you if they have not found someone knew to hang out with that's keeping him/her busy enough.  Not my opinion, its just what I've heard.

I think if you want them not to forget you yet because you yourself are still processing, once in a blue contact (text) keeps it safe enough for you.  Now, if you want that person totally out of your life, send a text or two everyday.  You might or might not get a response, but it won't matter because what you want is to get rid of the problem. 

I haven't gone totally NC, because I still live in the same place.  I fear that if I go NC, not that she will love me or care to come into my life again, but to interfere with my happiness.

Also, I think that the out of sight out of mind thing happens every time you're not with them... .even when you are still in a relationship with. ... .

[obliv326]

I had a rough week. I kept thinking about everything she had done to me that wasn't fair... .How I was never given respect or trust that she routinely gives away to complete strangers who have  very clear personal agenda. I thought about how she had done inexcusable na do silting things, and then blamed me when there were consequences. I didn't sleep at all Tuesday night and had a breakdown Wednesday.

And then, in the afternoon, something switched... .And it was over. I lost al respect for her. My feelings for her turned to complete contempt. I not only started to move on, but I felt like I was several miles down the road.

I realized that everything she had done was pretty much driven from a desire to avoid the consequences of her actions. It all made sense now, although in my head it doesn't excuse anything.

The only real emotion I have attached to her now is anger. I want to write her and tell her that she was wrong about everything. My friends didn't get angry with her because of the actions she had taken, although they alone would have made her look like a complete a hole. It happened because she had lied. She kept saying that the drama revolved around me, but it didn't. It revolved around her and happened only because of her.

And at a time when my grandma had died, her reaction was, rather than sympathy, to decide that her desire to avoid consequences by having an adult conversation was more important than the fact that I was hurt and grieving. My grandma raised me. She knew this. So her cruelty was even more selfish.

And to reduce 6 months of basically keeping her from being homeless or going hungry to "a few nice things?" Or to say that she doesn't owe me anything because of the way j treated her... .Isn't that the definition of respect? Treating someone how they treated you? And then she suggests that I have to respect her desire to not take responsibility for her actions? You earn respect, and she has earned absolutely none.

I'm actually thinking of writing and telling her so. I know it will make her mad, but frankly I don't care. She disrespected me and crossed the line and she doesn't deserve my respect. Normally I would say not talking is a fine option, but frankly, since it's what she wants, I don't much feel like giving it to her.

I'm wondering what to do. I really have no concern about how it affects her. I'm going to cut and cut deep and be honest. I won't be unnecessarily mean because I don't have to. Her actions alone make her look like a complete a hole. All I have to do is tell her so and state what I said before. I really don't care if it splits me even more black because she did that while I was giving her money for plane tickets and ending friendships to keep her safe... .And a "few other nice things"... .

The only concern I have is that it won't bother her enough. She deserves to feel like a POS for how she's behaved and I would hope what I would send her woukd make that happen. I'm worried, though, that it won't get to her, and she'll just decide what it means without really understanding it.

I would just keep quiet, and think that was sending the message, but I'm afraid she'll take it for compliance with her wishes, and right now, the only reason I haven't written her already is what I said in the last paragraph, and bc I don't really care to hear what she says. It would probably be a lie anyway.

I guess the third option is to wait a while, because I'm pretty sure she'll come back. In fact, she basically said as much. Maybe telling her then would have some effect?

The important thing here is that it would make me feel better to get this off my chest. What I'm feeling right now is that she acted like a complete jerk and has ordered me to not call her on it so she won't have to feel guilty, and that isn't okay.

[william3693]

Hello Obliv

Sorry you are going through this,but it can be a great oppertunity to learn a lot about yourself.

At first all I was interested in was ways to get her back,what she was thinking and I did not seem to be able to think about anything else.

I am on my 3rd recycle in 5 years.They can come back but be carefull what you wish for as you may get it.

The person I am/was involved was a waif had a good job was good with $ did not drink or use drugs .We had a lot of healthy interests hiking,visiting national parks

reading gardening,travel visiting libraries and mesums(Iknow my spelling sucks)

After she left the first time I started therapy,started working out took up photography did more with friends.

I think I also drove away some friends because at first all I could talk about was her.

I had a friend who wrote a book on love.He said if you want someone to love you teach them to give to you if you want them to hate you give to them.

After 3 years of nc I was contacted 7 months ago at that time I thought I could handle a relationship with her.I thought I am going to have no expectations if it goes south

I am gone.4 good months then problems.I think I have good DBT skills but they find ways to get to you.

I think I do not try to fix her or figure her out I try to concentrate on myself and set healthy boundries.

I do not argue or respond to her temper outbursts I try to listen and reflect back what she has said and how I think she is feeling.

But I find the push and pull too hard to handle.I am starting to become depressed.

I am pretty sure that for a couple of months she tried to work on the relationship but then painted me black. No rage just saying it is not working with no reason why.

It takes many more skills than I have to have a Relationship with someone with BPD and I think I want more out of a relationship than they are capable of giving.

One of the things it has taught me is how insentsive I had been in relationships.Read the forum on successful DBT relationships and you will see most all of them were

motivated to go into intensive therapy.Nobody knows why some alocholics    seek therapy I think same is true of DBT With alocholics they say you kill them with kindness

do not if that is true with DBT.This is painfull but one of the best oppertunties you will have to learn about yourself in your life

good luck and best wishes

[william3693]

Hello again

I think they are selfish but mostly they are just trying to survive.

What good will come from telling her how she has hurt you?

I do not know to what extent they are capable of empathy.

Would be like blaming a blind person for bumping into you

At this point I think NC and patience are your best way.Best way to get her back and best way to move on does both

When I was where you are now the thing that would drive crazy was

one day it would be clear to me that was the best Way and yet the next

day I would call her thinking it would somehow make me feel better.

It never did.

I think when they are not receptive nothing you can say will matter.

They will paint you black over and over.They may or may not be there for you

when you need support.That is their illness.If you cannot handle this it

would like dating someone with cancer and being upset they are tired or sick after chemo

[obliv326]

I get what you are both saying and I appreciate your input. Fwiw, I feel a lot better. I already have a much more positive self image and feel like I'm ready to be myself again... .And I really wasn't for as long as she was around.

The only vestigial thing I have left is anger. At some point, she needs to hear that I know all the ways she made a complete idiot of herself and that she lied to me about them. I don't really care if it sets her off or she paints me black or what. I get that it's her disease, but it's hard to make analogies to another disease. Cancer patients get tired and sick themselves. They don't make other people sick and tired. If a psychopath kills someone because of their disease, they are held responsible for their actions. So I have very little sympathy for someone who hurts other people because they can't handle their own emotions. If nothing else, they should get the results of their actions handed right back to them. I shouldn't have to handle the fact that she bought a plane ticket with money I gave her and messed around with another guy. She deserves to know that I know, and that I would never have given her money if I had known, and that there is no way to spin what she did as acceptable. She knew what she was doing was hurtful and that makes her a bad person, regardless of the reason. Being capable of that kind of cruelty should cost you. It shouldn't cost me, and having to sit here and let her use her messed up brain chemistry to make her believe she did nothing wrong and everything will be just fine as long as she doesn't talk to me is not okay. If nothing else, she deserves to hear that. And in her moments of clarity, frankly, I hope it eats her up inside.

She said she's getting help. I wonder if I can trust anything that comes out of her mouth, but I hope she is. The only way I will ever feel 100% better is if she apologizes. But j doubt she ever will. Short of that, I don't deserve to be the only one who knows that I'm aware that she lied to me several times so she could act out in stupid and destructive ways. Once I tell her and she now has to handle it, I can at least let that go... .And she can go out and waste a bunch of money on booze and sex toys and sleep with a bunch of idiots. That's on her.

[FallBack!Monster]

I get what you are both saying and I appreciate your input. Fwiw, I feel a lot better. I already have a much more positive self image and feel like I'm ready to be myself again... .And I really wasn't for as long as she was around.

The only vestigial thing I have left is anger. At some point, she needs to hear that I know all the ways she made a complete idiot of herself and that she lied to me about them. I don't really care if it sets her off or she paints me black or what.

I get that it's her disease, but it's hard to make analogies to another disease. Cancer patients get tired and sick themselves.They don't make other people sick and tired.  If a psychopath kills someone because of their disease, they are held responsible for their actions. So I have very little sympathy for someone who hurts other people because they can't handle their own emotions. If nothing else, they should get the results of their actions handed right back to them. I shouldn't have to handle the fact that she bought a plane ticket with money I gave her and messed around with another guy. She deserves to know that I know, and that I would never have given her money if I had known, and that there is no way to spin what she did as acceptable. She knew what she was doing was hurtful and that makes her a bad person, regardless of the reason. Being capable of that kind of cruelty should cost you. It shouldn't cost me, and having to sit here and let her use her messed up brain chemistry to make her believe she did nothing wrong and everything will be just fine as long as she doesn't talk to me is not okay. If nothing else, she deserves to hear that. And in her moments of clarity, frankly, I hope it eats her up inside.

She said she's getting help. I wonder if I can trust anything that comes out of her mouth, but I hope she is. The only way I will ever feel 100% better is if she apologizes. But j doubt she ever will. Short of that, I don't deserve to be the only one who knows that I'm aware that she lied to me several times so she could act out in stupid and destructive ways. Once I tell her and she now has to handle it, I can at least let that go... .And she can go out and waste a bunch of money on booze and sex toys and sleep with a bunch of idiots. That's on her.

obliv-

  I agree 100%  with everything you expressed.  I'm sick and tired of people saying "is their disease --> you wouldn't blame a cancer patient or a person with another illness for being sick.  Why do you blame us for an illness we can't control?" Or don't take it personal it is just part of the disease.  huh      how can I NOT take it personal if my life has been "personally" affected by her actions?

I can't see why anyone would compare evil deeds to cancer.

Thanks for sharing that obliv

[Reforming]

Hi Obliv

It sounds like you might be in the anger stage of grieving. There's nothing wrong with that - in fact provided you don't get stuck in it it's quite healthy.

I felt very angry for quite some time at my exes behaviour. I felt I had supported and helped her when there was nobody else and this made her betrayal feel much worse. I wanted justice

My friends and family encouraged me to detach telling me that continued engagement and conflict would just make things harder. When I look back now, with the luxury of time and detachment I think they were right but it was very hard to let go of the anger and hurt I felt.

It's a personal choice and I think we have to work through things in our way and get to the other side.

Trying to confront my ex with her misdeeds and the damage she had done was a waste of my time and energy. She had convinced herself that I was persecuting and abusing her - pretty common when you have a personality disorder - and continued engagement just convinced her that she was right. I think she probably felt a lot of shame but she buried it or projected it on to me. She did make a couple of apologies, but they felt very superficial and insincere. It felt a bit like a small child saying they are sorry without really understanding the harm they have done.

From what you've written your exes behaviour was cruel and destructive. Understanding the dynamics of a disordered relationship doesn't mean that you have to excuse or accept it. But it can empower you to learn from the experience, no matter how painful it feels now and move forward. The longer you stay emotionally engaged with her the longer it will take. At this stage continued contact or conflict will hurt you more than her.

It will get better

Reforming

[obliv326]

Thanks Reforming

I think you might be right about me being in the anger stage. And you're probably right that re-engaging with her will just convince her she's right, at least right now. I do think, however, that I'm going to be holding on to some part of my anger until I've expressed it to her.  Knowing that this is going to happen, at some point, makes it a little easier to handle it in the short term. I also don't think there would be any arguing or back and forth. She wants absolutely nothing to do with accepting consequences, so calling her out for it will absolutely result in her not responding.

But to me, staying silent and her never having to pay for what she did in some way is the same as her getting away with it. In her mind anyway, although I do wonder if her reaction had to do with knowing what she did... .It came right after my friend called her out for what she did on my birthday... .So I'm guessing having to hear that she was a real POS caused her to hit bottom. If she had a moment of reflection then and apologized, it would have been one thing. But no... .Her reaction was to think that blaming it all on me and burying her head in the sand was the way to go.

So, as long as she suffers no consequences for her head being in the sand, she'll think she was right... .And if nothing else, she needs to know she's the reason all of this happens, and that she's a bad person. At least for awhile. Then I can be completely free of her crap

[Reforming]

Hi Obliv

I can totally relate to your feelings.

Perhaps it might be worth digging down a bit into what might be driving them. Anger is protective mechanism that is often driven by fear.

And I think letting go - detaching can be frightening. When we find ourselves alone it can be very overwhelming especially when we feel we've lost this intense sense of connection that was created by the idealisation of our partner.

So trying to continue or renew that connection, even it's confrontational, is understandable. Especially when there's a part of us that hopes that if can get our exes to see their mistakes they will see the light and come back. There are some good links on this site that that discuss the beliefs that can keep us stuck

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

NO7 Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment.said. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback. This is one of the most difficult aspects of breaking up - there is no closure.

My feeling is that closure has to be earned and the only real way forward is to seek closure elsewhere through better understanding of what happened, self knowledge and growth.

There are ALSO some really great tools that help us heal. Mindfulness and journalling can make a huge difference. You could write a letter to your ex expressing your feelings and hold off sending it.

Reforming