Weird incident

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm new here and have posted a lengthy thread summing up the past couple of years of marriage to my uBPDw. We're currently separated about 4 months, and of course I'm doing quite a bit of reflecting now that I'm out of the toxic day to day life.

One instance that really sticks out as I look back is a bizarre sexual encounter we had. My experience has been similar to many on this board; intense affection and and frequent fooling around during the brief courtship, then after marriage the switch flipped and all of that dissipated and eventually disappeared. Within the first year of our marriage she would get upset with me and say she was not comfortable with me even hugging her because "things weren't good with us". It should be noted that she was sexually abused as a child and also claims she was raped by an abusive boyfriend during her late teenage years. I often felt like some sort of sexual deviant for just wanting to kiss or hug my wife when I had never done anything remotely demeaning or abusive toward her.

Flash forward to this past fall. I recall a weekend morning when we were just laying in bed together. There was flirtation back and forth. It seemed every time I would start ramping it up toward sex she would push me away and start touching my face. After a few times of this I just felt really put off. I figured I would just lay back down and go to sleep, but first went to the bathroom. When I came back she was stark naked on the bed. So of course I started kissing her, I won't go into detail but the normal things couples do as the passion ramps up. She pushed me away forcefully. I was confused because it seemed clear she wanted to have sex. So I went back to doing what I was doing and after a few moments again she used her foot and kicked me back away from her. It's as if she was using her arms and feet to keep me from actually getting close to her. Now given that she had made comments in the past that I had done things in the past during sex that made her feel uncomfortable (she never specified what those were) I did not feel okay with this situation. I'm not about to force myself on someone who in the past has said they don't want me even touching them for days at a time without knowing that's what they definitely want. I know some couples play out scenarios like this and I don't see a problem with it so long as it is consensual, both parties feel safe, and there is some understanding of the ground rules beforehand.

She got very upset, immediately got dressed and stormed out of the bedroom. I felt ashamed, disturbed, confused; really a whole cocktail of unpleasant feelings. I was told that I have no consideration for her sexual needs and I pretty much got the silent treatment for the rest of the day. That was the last time we had a sexual encounter. From that day in September until the day I left in late February there was not a single time we had sex or did anything intimate. I guess I'm posting this wondering if any others have had bizarre experiences like this. The paradox of at times not even wanting me to touch her, while at another time wanting me to play out some sort of forced sex/rape scenario with her without even discussing it, it just disturbed me so deeply. That kind of thing really tears you up inside.

Thanks to anyone who can offer some insights. I guess I realize it likely has a lot to do with the abuse in her past and her intimacy issues, but sometimes you just want other people to acknowledge and empathize the pain of things like this.

Thanks guys,

Orange

[Mr Orange]

I'm new here and have posted a lengthy thread summing up the past couple of years of marriage to my uBPDw. We're currently separated about 4 months, and of course I'm doing quite a bit of reflecting now that I'm out of the toxic day to day life.

One instance that really sticks out as I look back is a bizarre sexual encounter we had. My experience has been similar to many on this board; intense affection and and frequent fooling around during the brief courtship, then after marriage the switch flipped and all of that dissipated and eventually disappeared. Within the first year of our marriage she would get upset with me and say she was not comfortable with me even hugging her because "things weren't good with us". It should be noted that she was sexually abused as a child and also claims she was raped by an abusive boyfriend during her late teenage years. I often felt like some sort of sexual deviant for just wanting to kiss or hug my wife when I had never done anything remotely demeaning or abusive toward her.

Flash forward to this past fall. I recall a weekend morning when we were just laying in bed together. There was flirtation back and forth. It seemed every time I would start ramping it up toward sex she would push me away and start touching my face. After a few times of this I just felt really put off. I figured I would just lay back down and go to sleep, but first went to the bathroom. When I came back she was stark naked on the bed. So of course I started kissing her, I won't go into detail but the normal things couples do as the passion ramps up. She pushed me away forcefully. I was confused because it seemed clear she wanted to have sex. So I went back to doing what I was doing and after a few moments again she used her foot and kicked me back away from her. It's as if she was using her arms and feet to keep me from actually getting close to her. Now given that she had made comments in the past that I had done things in the past during sex that made her feel uncomfortable (she never specified what those were) I did not feel okay with this situation. I'm not about to force myself on someone who in the past has said they don't want me even touching them for days at a time without knowing that's what they definitely want. I know some couples play out scenarios like this and I don't see a problem with it so long as it is consensual, both parties feel safe, and there is some understanding of the ground rules beforehand.

She got very upset, immediately got dressed and stormed out of the bedroom. I felt ashamed, disturbed, confused; really a whole cocktail of unpleasant feelings. I was told that I have no consideration for her sexual needs and I pretty much got the silent treatment for the rest of the day. That was the last time we had a sexual encounter. From that day in September until the day I left in late February there was not a single time we had sex or did anything intimate. I guess I'm posting this wondering if any others have had bizarre experiences like this. The paradox of at times not even wanting me to touch her, while at another time wanting me to play out some sort of forced sex/rape scenario with her without even discussing it, it just disturbed me so deeply. That kind of thing really tears you up inside.

Thanks to anyone who can offer some insights. I guess I realize it likely has a lot to do with the abuse in her past and her intimacy issues, but sometimes you just want other people to acknowledge and empathize the pain of things like this.

Thanks guys,

Orange

[Cat Familiar]

I'm sorry Mr. Orange that you had this weird experience. She certainly was giving you mixed signals and not clarifying what exactly was problematic for her, yet seemingly wanting you to violate her boundaries. Yikes.

My sexual relationship with my husband currently stands at zero. We were incredibly sexual at the beginning and it was wonderful, but I'll have to take responsibility for turning down the volume as time went on.

His abuse of alcohol and prescriptions meds made him behave like a creepy weirdo sometimes. It wasn't that he did anything particularly strange, it was more the weird look on his face and that he was so disconnected from his body and he just became sort of a robot pounding away at me with no ability to get off. It left me sore physically and really turned off emotionally.

Having had this experience with him when he was drunk, I turned him down a couple of times when he was in that state. And from that point he has not wanted to initiate sex with me. And if he's had anything to drink, I don't want to have sex with him either. So by the time it's evening, it's not going to happen.

There have been times when I tried to initiate, but he said that "he didn't trust me" so nothing happened and I sure didn't want to ask again. Sometimes his body is even rigid when I try to hug him. That damned BPD and the black and white thinking that accompanies it. If I were more motivated, I would try to break through this impasse, but I'm rather disgusted with his alcohol abuse so that's really turned me off to wanting to be romantic with him.

It's sad because he was a wonderful lover in the beginning years of our relationship.

I'm not offering you any insight into your situation, other than that BPD really plays havoc on intimate relationships.   

[Mr Orange]

Cat,

Sorry to hear you've dealt with some really screwed up intimacy stuff as well. I especially relate to the bit where you described him as being "disconnected" and almost "like a robot". My wife never seemed truly connected during sex. And she always wanted to hop up, get dressed, and move on immediately afterward. Never the desire to enjoy the so called "afterglow"; those moments where you just lay together and enjoy being so connected. I hated that. Guys are often stereotyped as the ones who just wanna get down to business and move on, but I've confided in a few close friends who tell me they would hate it if their spouse or partner didn't want to cuddle afterwards. I did not have a tremendous amount of sexual experience prior to my marriage, so I may have been slower to pick up on some of the signs that certain things were not normal or healthy, or perhaps because she had a tremendous amount of experience with sex, I felt unsure of my instincts.

You're right though. BPD wreaks havoc on intimacy and can really tear the non up inside. Thanks again for sharing with me. It's nice to have support on here. I hope things get better for you. Were you ever able to get your husband to go to couples counseling?

Cheers,

Orange

[Cat Familiar]

I especially relate to the bit where you described him as being "disconnected" and almost "like a robot". My wife never seemed truly connected during sex. And she always wanted to hop up, get dressed, and move on immediately afterward. Never the desire to enjoy the so called "afterglow"; those moments where you just lay together and enjoy being so connected.

Something significant I didn't pick up on at the beginning was that he'd sometimes jump up afterwards and pour himself a glass of wine. That seemed odd at the time, but in retrospect, what I understand it to be indicative of now is a way to moderate emotions that were uncomfortable to experience, perhaps similar to your wife's response of getting up and getting dressed.

Regarding couples counseling. I suggested it and he reluctantly went along with it. He felt attacked and not much changed other than it improved our communication somewhat. I see the same psychologist for individual counseling to help me deal with the relationship. I chose her because I needed someone really smart who wouldn't get sucked into his word games. He's a lawyer. She told me he has a personality disorder but she doesn't identify them because they often are comorbid. I can definitely see narcissistic traits in addition to the BPD.

[vortex of confusion]

I want to acknowledge the pain that weird sex stuff can cause to a person.

I don't know that I have any insights really. I know that stbx could joke about sex like a teenage boy all day long. However, when it came down to serious stuff within our relationship, it was difficult to discuss it at all.

The mixed signals are so unbelievably painful. My stbx is a self proclaimed sex addict and is currently in a 12 step program for it yet he had difficulties with our physical relationship. He was the sex addict yet said he couldn't keep up with me. He kept a towel by the bed at all times and would have to clean up the second we were done. No cuddling and no basking in anything. It was clean up and move on like being with me was some kind of dirty thing that made him feel dirty. I was sexually abused as a child. He was not.

The disconnectedness during times of intimacy was also very pleasant. He couldn't even be with me towards the end unless I talked about fantasy type stuff. He could no longer be with me without the fantasy and weirdness. He would tell me that he didn't need that and wouldn't ask for it. I would make a move to be with with him as me without the fantasy and he couldn't perform. I had to read his mind to figure out what he wanted/needed. I think shame had a big part in it. It was like he was ashamed of his own sexuality.

[Mr Orange]

It really is a strange and difficult thing to comprehend. Seems like our experiences are pretty similar. I was told prior to us getting married (and she certainly demonstrated this during courtship) that she had a huge appetite for sex. Once there was real intimacy, i.e. we were married, that appetite went away. There certainly seemed to be feelings of immediate shame after sex, as you guys have also experienced. She mentioned early in our relationship that after she experienced the child sex abuse, her and her sister (was also abused) would play games with other young children who were neighbors using barbie dolls that were sexual in nature. It seems clear that during her developmental years she formed some very warped and unhealthy attitudes about sex, and her own sexuality. Just one more reason that she needs to be in therapy, and why that is a bottom line for me in regards to us getting back together.

I'm currently seeing a therapist, but she has used the excuse that "I just don't like who she is as a person" to deflect her responsibility to also be in therapy. It is my feeling that we should both do some individual therapy before trying couples counseling. The last conversation we had I drew a line in the sand and told her she has to show some effort on her part to work on our marriage and if she's not willing to do that there's nothing to talk about at this time. She replied that me wanting her to address certain things shows I don't like her as a person and we have to agree to disagree. I said I understand, I can't make you see what you don't want to, so there's nothing further to talk about, but if she changes her thinking to let me know and I'll still be praying for her. I figured there would be a time of not communicating given the impasse we're currently at. She texted me two days later bringing up other issues. IMO trying to keep me engaged and continue 100 other approaches to get what she wants, which would be me accepting that I have to do 100% of the changing and she just has to forgive me for the wrongs I've done. It's like she thinks if she keeps trying the FOG I'll eventually cave, but it's not happening. I know I can't live the way we were living, and I cannot be in a relationship with someone who can't even acknowledge they have any part of our marriage being in the crisis state that it is in, and has been in for the past couple of years. I'm not wavering.