Best way to inform BPD spouse about pursuing plans

[SingOn]

One ongoing problem we have (and it looks very common, from what I've been reading) is the non giving up things that are important to them to keep the peace. I've managed to keep doing some things that are very important to me, but have given up (imo) far too many others. Whenever I get an invitation to do something, particularly on the weekend, my heart sinks with dread, knowing I can't take the invitation without being accused of not being there for H, valuing others more than him, possible threats of divorce, etc. 

The divorce threat is looming large right now (he has threatened after my more consistent use of boundaries) and I just don't want to go into our familiar cycle of him threatening, me pulling away, him trying to reconcile, me reluctantly reconciling, and we go back to the same pattern.

So I've decided to do things I want to do, regardless of what he says. I'm conflicted, because what I consider reasonable and what he considers reasonable are two different things. Yet I feel I need to take a stand on this, because I am SO tired of feeling trapped. I know I just can't do the rest of my marriage this way.

My question is, if I get an invitation (in this case with some good friends for a bike ride on the weekend), is there a validating yet being true-to-myself way of letting him know? Or, telling him I'm spending the evening at a party thrown by a music colleague of mine, to which he is also invited (but he never wants to go to these things)? These are things that will trigger him into his blaming me for not supporting him. It's never ending. I'm triggered as well just thinking about it. Thanks for any words of wisdom.

[Lucky Jim]

So I've decided to do things I want to do, regardless of what he says. I'm conflicted, because what I consider reasonable and what he considers reasonable are two different things. Yet I feel I need to take a stand on this, because I am SO tired of feeling trapped. I know I just can't do the rest of my marriage this way.

Hey SingOn, I reached a similar decision during my marriage to a pwBPD.  I stopped doing the things that I enjoy, which led to isolation and depression.  Like you, I came to the realization that, if I was going to survive, I needed to start doing those things that bring me joy again, like seeing friends and family, regardless of the consequences.  So I echo your thinking on this issue.

The way I approached it was to make a decision on my own, in advance, that I was going to do something "come Hell or High Water," because I knew that my W would try to stop me.  She threw plenty of roadblocks in my way, yet if I stayed strong in my resolve to do something "no matter what," she eventually backed down and sometimes even joined me, like the time I wanted to go to a college football game w/friends.  In my view, you have to approach this problem from a position of strength and steely resolve, because if you wait for approval or permission from your BPD SO, you will never receive it.  Just the way it is with BPD.

When my W raised objections, I responded, for example, that there is nothing wrong with going to a football game.  Or that it's normal to see friends for a drink.  Or that it's important to me to go to a party.  What I'm getting at is that I avoided couching my responses in a way that allowed her to veto the activity or have any say in whether I was going to do it.

Not sure if I have answered your question, but that's the technique I used with reasonable success.

LuckyJim

[SingOn]

Thanks, LJ.

Interestingly, I have had that steely resolve with certain things, like pursuing my vocation/career despite BPDH's reactions (although in retrospect, I wasn't always "in charge" to give my career what I could have. And I would find myself shaken by his reactions and not be fully present or my best). Yet it is an example to me of how inner boundaries work - I stood up for myself and did some difficult things I felt deep inside I needed to do; there was just no question in my mind. The result is that I've not gotten completely lost and have had some success and joy in my career. However, the downside is that H would often (and continues to) hold it against me, call me selfish for pursuing something that took me away for part of the weekends, on and on. Plus it's made him jealous. So I built up lots of resentment for my H.

Usually when he protests, I'll think, "Well, he has a point. Most couples would work something out. Most wives may indeed not do such-and-such" (his argument, actually). And often I understand his feelings behind his protests. But we're not a normal couple! And the "facts" behind his feelings are exaggerated or untrue. He makes demands out of fear and suspicion, which makes loving compromise impossible for me.

I think what still trips me up is wanting his approval and support. Occasionally he is supportive, so I've experienced it, and want that so badly! But I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is unrealistic. Radical acceptance. I'm pretty sure I'm not there yet.

Over the years I have managed to do a few of these extra things (week-long bike trips, extra gigs, volunteering) but I've allowed his disapproval to get to me. So I'll leave early from meetings, distracted by anticipating his reaction. I'll feel guilty if I'm having too much fun. This sounds crazy as I write it. But it's true. And THAT'S what I don't want anymore. I want to know that I'm doing, like you said, nothing wrong. Something that's completely normal. "Come hell or high water"!  Easier said than done.

Also, I'm feeling frustrated that I'm so reluctant to validate his feelings. Maybe I've still got too much resentment? Or pride? Can't quite figure it out.

[Wrongturn1]

Agreed that you must have a steely resolve to follow through on doing the normal, healthy activities that you want to do. 

One roadblock that my uBPDw would occasionally use in the past was to say "you never told me about this plan" to do something once the day of the event arrived, so I started communicating with her via email or text about scheduled activities that I did not want to miss.  That way, there can be no gaslighting on her part that I never informed her about the schedule. 

My uBPDw has improved in this regard in the time that I have started making some outside activities a priority.  For example, last night, I spent the evening playing music and drinking beer with a bunch of my musician friends at one of the guys' home.  uBPDw was ranting to me on the phone about D9's behavior through most of my drive to the event, but I did not let it stop me or change my plans.  Not one negative word about it from uBPDw last night when I returned or this morning.  That's progress!

[Lucky Jim]

I think what still trips me up is wanting his approval and support. Occasionally he is supportive, so I've experienced it, and want that so badly! But I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is unrealistic.

Hey SingOn, You're doing great, so stay the course.  Why do you think you want/need his approval?  Sometimes the answer lies deeper, perhaps in your FOO.  Seeking someone's permission to live your own life is a hallmark of codependency, needless to say, so you might want to look at this issue.  I thought that I needed my BPDxW's OK before I did anything, which is probably common for a lot of husbands, in terms of trying to please their wife.  Yet it's extremely unhealthy and you end up giving over all your power to someone else (also a sign of codependency).  My BPDxW, of course, was happy to withhold her support/approval, because it allowed her to control and manipulate me.  Once you can identify the issue, then it's possible to change it.  I was in the dark for a long time and had to come to terms with my own need to caretake, which is often an excuse to avoid caring for oneself.  I suspect that most Nons on this site, like me, are codependent to some extent, because that's the dynamic of a BPD r/s and you almost have to be in order to be in a r/s with a pwBPD, in my view.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

There will be some trial and error as you figure out the best way to do this in your relationship.

A good place to start is by finding a good time to talk and start out light.  You are basically making sure your partner is in a neutral place or perhaps in a good mood.

Then,... ."hey... .I'm going to go do xyz and I would love for you to come with me.  I value our time together."  (you get the gist... .make the words authentic to you and the way you talk, but be clear). 

If opposition comes up, be understanding and clear that you respect their differences and choice to not go, that they are valuable to you and that you look forward to other times when you can do things together.

So

1.  Together stuff is great and positive for the relationship.

2.  Apart stuff is great and positive for the relationship.

You respect your partners choice and end the conversation.

The longer you debate, the bigger chance of a slip up.

Have a plan B for the next conversation.  "Hey, I found a new dill sauce recipe and was thinking of trying it on salmon tomorrow night.  How does that sound?"

FF

[ArleighBurke]

I am in the same situation with my wife. *She* doesn't want to leave the house, because she get anxious, but she has come up with endless lists of why that should also apply to me (too much housework to do, can;t get care for the kids, the kids are tired, its too cold). 

Usually when he protests, I'll think, "Well, he has a point". But the "facts" behind his feelings are exaggerated or untrue.

Yep. There is a grain of truth in everything. And there is always a reason why "this one time" I should cancel. But when you then look at history - you end up seeing you've never gone out!

She also complains *every* time I want to do something alone on the weekend, because it's unfair that I leave our 3 kids with her (13/9/6) (even though she will quite happily go shopping alone, or to work for hours alone and leave ME with the 3 kids). Normally I only plan my socialising for after the kids are in bed - which does hurt. She still hates it and finds a way to complain or tries to make me cancel each time. She seems more OK (less not-OK?) if I take at least 1 child with me - so I'm trying to get my son into biking/runing - but this is variable - often it makes no difference.

A month ago we sat down and I outlined what I thought was a reasonable social schedule. (eg we go out as a couple/date 1/month, we do a family outing 1/fortnight, I go out with friends to do sport 1/2 day /month, I socialise with friends 1night/fortnight). She hated it! Tried to argue that we already do all that. I suggested we diary what we do so we could see it but she wouldn't have a bar of it - although since then she has been more proactive at organising stuff.

I have learnt that i need to approach softly. Say "I'm thinking of doing x". (I can't say "I'm PLANNING to do X" because in her mind a plan is something carved in stone). I can't talk about the weekend until wed/thu night - because she won't plan that far away (another control tactic). I also have a lot of success if I remain flexible (she often tries to make me change nights - I think she's worried that I'm going to a big party/event to pickup?). If there's anything big that i have to book for, I can talk about it early with her, but I don't hope to get her OK. If there's no real objection, I put it on the calender, and then never talk about it again.

I often invite her to do stuff with me. Often she'll say yes, but when the day gets closer she'll find reasons why she can't go. I just remain flexible - always have a backup plan. It sux - it's one sided - but it's my life.

I think what still trips me up is wanting his approval and support.

This makes sense. You want to feel like a good spouse - like you are living as part of a team. Not that you are the parent telling him what you are going to do even if he doesn't want it.

And I've read that doing things alone are a form of abandonment for her. One suggested tactic was to discuss your planned out event, but also plan a together event in the same conversation. ("I was thinking of going riding with the guys sat morning, then you and I could go to lunch together at X". This is supposed to reassure them... .

[formflier]

"thinking" versus "planning"

My take is that this will come down to whether or not you want a hard or soft boundary on this in your r/s.  I would suggest soft to start, to give a chance at true compromise.   If it goes even halfway good, I would stick with that for a while, since it is close to what a healthy r/s should be.

Ultimately, you will need to live your life and leave them to sort out (self sooth) about your choices.  Keep the door open to healthy interaction about changing plans and true need, but recognize that it likely won't happen.  When and if it does happen, be obvious about reinforcing good behavior.

Yep, this sounds very parental.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to get around that.

FF

[SingOn]

... .but I did not let it stop me or change my plans.  Not one negative word about it from uBPDw last night when I returned or this morning.  That's progress!

Excellent, Wrongturn! Hopefully she won't add it to her mental list of wrongdoings and hold it against you later, possibly for years, as my H tends to do!

Also, in my case it would indeed be helpful to let him know in black and white ahead of time. I can tell him things, but he forgets then blames me somehow.

Why do you think you want/need his approval?  Sometimes the answer lies deeper, perhaps in your FOO.  Seeking someone's permission to live your own life is a hallmark of codependency, needless to say, so you might want to look at this issue. 

Yes, LJ. I've been exploring this with my T. I was a sensitive child, and remember how I reacted to my father's yelling at me. My common reaction with H has been to feel flooded and freeze, as I apparently experience that emotional memory. However, lately I've been able to detach to a certain extent, repeating to myself, "Feeling equals fact; this isn't about me". And then biting down hard as so not to JADE!

The need for approval runs deep. I'm working on self-compassion, giving myself (and others) grace, and slowly but surely some things are sticking. HOWEVER, maybe I am also confusing needing H's approval with simply wanting to be in a relationship where there is mutual support, as Williamskevin alluded to. Humans are wired to connect. I know how it feels to be around people who are supportive and bring out my best, as I do with them. The energy is so different! And right now I am on the conflicted/deciding board because I just don't know if I want to keep doing this! I keep finding myself on this fence. Getting off topic here... .but would be curious to hear about your decision making.

"I do not need his permission" is actually a helpful focus phrase for me. Thank you.

[SingOn]

There will be some trial and error as you figure out the best way to do this in your relationship.

A good place to start is by finding a good time to talk and start out light.  You are basically making sure your partner is in a neutral place or perhaps in a good mood.

Then,... ."hey... .I'm going to go do xyz and I would love for you to come with me.  I value our time together."  (you get the gist... .make the words authentic to you and the way you talk, but be clear). 

If opposition comes up, be understanding and clear that you respect their differences and choice to not go, that they are valuable to you and that you look forward to other times when you can do things together.

So

1.  Together stuff is great and positive for the relationship.

2.  Apart stuff is great and positive for the relationship.

You respect your partners choice and end the conversation.

The longer you debate, the bigger chance of a slip up.

Have a plan B for the next conversation.  "Hey, I found a new dill sauce recipe and was thinking of trying it on salmon tomorrow night.  How does that sound?"

Excellent helpful advice, FF! I will definitely try this approach. There are unfortunately times when I really don't want him to come along to things, because it's hard for me to have fun, knowing he may criticize me for being too social or whatever (huge jealousy issues), but I can sort those times out.

"thinking" versus "planning"

My take is that this will come down to whether or not you want a hard or soft boundary on this in your r/s.  I would suggest soft to start, to give a chance at true compromise.   If it goes even halfway good, I would stick with that for a while, since it is close to what a healthy r/s should be.

Ultimately, you will need to live your life and leave them to sort out (self sooth) about your choices.  Keep the door open to healthy interaction about changing plans and true need, but recognize that it likely won't happen.  When and if it does happen, be obvious about reinforcing good behavior.

Yes good point. For me, it can be hard to decide which activities are soft and which ones I will do no matter what. But organizing it in my head this way is helpful. Let the practicing begin! 

[SingOn]

I am in the same situation with my wife. *She* doesn't want to leave the house, because she get anxious, but she has come up with endless lists of why that should also apply to me (too much housework to do, can;t get care for the kids, the kids are tired, its too cold). 

All the time. I recently planned a bike trip with women only, thinking that would be sensitive to his jealousy. We'd talked about me going on a trip, yet through some misunderstanding/mishearing, he hadn't registered it. So he hit the roof, saying angrily, "But it's hard when you're gone!"     Me:"In what way?"    H: "Feeding the dog"    Me: "I can get the neighbor girls who always do that for us"    H; "Food!"    Me: "Well pick something up if you don't want to cook!"  Etc. Yes, there is a bigger thing going on.

And then there are holidays with my family. He mistrusts my family and wants to spend as little time as possible with them, and also doesn't want our girls (18, 21, 23) to spend time with them, as he fears they will be influenced by my family's values, which are in some ways different than his. Thing is, my girls and I love spending time with my family, who are remarkably supportive and loving and fun (and I wish we'd be able to spend more time, not less). I can't just say, "Well, I'll go with the girls and you deal with it", because he doesn't want to spend holidays alone. Which makes sense. But leaves me in a bind. Every family invite triggers a dysregulation.

And I've read that doing things alone are a form of abandonment for her. One suggested tactic was to discuss your planned out event, but also plan a together event in the same conversation. ("I was thinking of going riding with the guys sat morning, then you and I could go to lunch together at X". This is supposed to reassure them... .

I have tried this with varying degrees of success. It certainly helps more than not.

[Lucky Jim]

my girls and I love spending time with my family, who are remarkably supportive and loving and fun (and I wish we'd be able to spend more time, not less). I can't just say, "Well, I'll go with the girls and you deal with it", because he doesn't want to spend holidays alone. Which makes sense.

Hey SingOn, Does that really make sense?  Why does he have the power to ruin the holidays for you and your daughters?  Why can't you say, I'm going with the girls to see my family and you are welcome to join us?  If he elects to stay home alone, isn't that his problem, not yours?  I used to do summersaults during the holidays trying to accommodate my BPDxW's desire to see her family and to avoid seeing my family.  Now I regard it as an unhealthy dynamic that was mostly a function of my codependency.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

  "But it's hard when you're gone!"     Me:"In what way?"   

A bit of a "tactical" suggestion for times like this.

And you can see how a radical change in thinking is needed to have consistent responses like this, that are different from what you did.

Not saying what you did was "wrong".  But this might be better.

Remember, it's about their emotions.  Reason has very little to do with it.


So, he says "it's hard when you are gone"

You say "I'm sure it is.  I think most people would feel it hard when their loved one is gone.  It will make the reunion all the sweeter"

See how that stays focused on his emotions?   It's a bit of a SET response.

FF

[SingOn]

Hey SingOn, Does that really make sense?  Why does he have the power to ruin the holidays for you and your daughters?  Why can't you say, I'm going with the girls to see my family and you are welcome to join us?  If he elects to stay home alone, isn't that his problem, not yours?

Thank you for pointing that out. Here's where the FOG rolls in, especially guilt. I think conventional marriage wisdom says you should choose your spouse over extended family, so that's mixed up in there. (Of course, I'm learning that conventional marriage wisdom often backfires in these kinds of relationships). I'm torn on this one, yet you are right; I've given him power here. He wants it to just be our immediate family, where he feels in control and the authority/head of us. I feel uncomfortable with this, especially when it means missing out on healthy togetherness with extended family. 

I used to do summersaults during the holidays trying to accommodate my BPDxW's desire to see her family and to avoid seeing my family.  Now I regard it as an unhealthy dynamic that was mostly a function of my codependency.

This reminds me of a Patty Griffin song... ."It would take an acrobat, and I've already tried all that so I'm gonna let him fly." 

[SingOn]

A bit of a "tactical" suggestion for times like this.

And you can see how a radical change in thinking is needed to have consistent responses like this, that are different from what you did.

Remember, it's about their emotions.  Reason has very little to do with it.


So, he says "it's hard when you are gone"

You say "I'm sure it is.  I think most people would feel it hard when their loved one is gone.  It will make the reunion all the sweeter"

See how that stays focused on his emotions?   It's a bit of a SET response.

The tools really come alive when you see examples from your own scenarios! Yes, looks good, and yes, a radical mindset change is part of it - I see that. Yet the above kind of conversation becoming second nature seems far away to me. One prerequisite is being calm and detached. I was able to do that last night during a dysregulation, in which I replied to a false accusation calmly and from the bottom of my heart, saying "Yes, I can see how you might have come to that conclusion", to which he yelled, "YES, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE!" So there's that.  It would have been a good time to exit but we were in the car. I didn't feed the fire though, and when we got home, he was still going, and I said, "Just so you're aware, this conversation is over for me."  "Oh, so you're doing that again?" he replied. "Yes," I said. Then he left and went to his room. I guess that was somewhat successful. More boundary setting than validation, but I got a little in there.

[Lucky Jim]

I think conventional marriage wisdom says you should choose your spouse over extended family, so that's mixed up in there. (Of course, I'm learning that conventional marriage wisdom often backfires in these kinds of relationships).

Right, SingOn.  In other scenarios, that might apply, but not in the context of BPD, in my view, because much of what happens is based on insecurity, fear of abandonment, anger, control and other unhealthy dynamics, not to mention use of F-O-G to manipulate the Non.  I should know, because I did exactly what you are describing in my marriage and it led to a highly dysfunctional r/s, in which I nearly destroyed myself.

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

I said, "Just so you're aware, this conversation is over for me."  "Oh, so you're doing that again?" he replied. "Yes," I said. Then he left and went to his room. I guess that was somewhat successful. More boundary setting than validation, but I got a little in there.

I'd say that was successful in terms of holding firm to your boundary.  Nicely done!

To recap my previous post a little, there are many qualities that are admirable and even desirable in other relationships, such as loyalty, kindness, patience, dedication, etc.  Yet I found those qualities used against me in my marriage to a pwBPD.  Over time, I came to see that maybe my loyalty and dedication were misplaced, in the sense that I was enabling an abusive alcoholic suffering from BPD.  Plus, I was destroying myself in the process.  So I think you have to be careful about conventional marriage wisdom.

People recite a litany of cliches to the effect that marriage is hard work, that love should be unconditional, that every marriage goes through rough patches, blah, blah, blah; yet those people have no concept of what it's like in a BPD marriage.  So in my view, all the usual rules don't apply in the context of BPD.  Just my experience and my two cents!

LuckyJim