Question for Christians

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm interested to hear from other Christians who have experience with Christian marriage counselors. My wife and I went to a counselor through our church about a year and a half ago. We did both joint and individual sessions. I was not that impressed with the counselor. It felt like he was more equipped to deal with garden variety marriage problems, and that the issues we were having were well above his expertise. We really were seeing no progress and eventually stopped going after a number of months.

After my wife and I separated a little more than 4 months ago, I went to a different Christian counselor to get individual counseling. I went this route because at the time I could not afford any other option and our church has this program where the counseling is much cheaper than a typical therapist. Again, it was not a very helpful experience. It felt like his feeling was "You're depressed because you're too inwardly focused. You need to focus on God more and not so much on the hurt your wife has caused you". While he may be right in terms of the longview, when you're in immediate pain this is not the sort of message that is going to help you. I also think it's important to process emotions and talk through things.

Anyway, I was just interested to hear from other Christians and what your experiences with counselors has been, both secular and through the church.

Thanks,
Orange

[Mr Orange]

I'm interested to hear from other Christians who have experience with Christian marriage counselors. My wife and I went to a counselor through our church about a year and a half ago. We did both joint and individual sessions. I was not that impressed with the counselor. It felt like he was more equipped to deal with garden variety marriage problems, and that the issues we were having were well above his expertise. We really were seeing no progress and eventually stopped going after a number of months.

After my wife and I separated a little more than 4 months ago, I went to a different Christian counselor to get individual counseling. I went this route because at the time I could not afford any other option and our church has this program where the counseling is much cheaper than a typical therapist. Again, it was not a very helpful experience. It felt like his feeling was "You're depressed because you're too inwardly focused. You need to focus on God more and not so much on the hurt your wife has caused you". While he may be right in terms of the longview, when you're in immediate pain this is not the sort of message that is going to help you. I also think it's important to process emotions and talk through things.

Anyway, I was just interested to hear from other Christians and what your experiences with counselors has been, both secular and through the church.

Thanks,
Orange

[StayStrongNow]

Soon after she filed I sought a Christian counselor. I did not know anything about BPD so I just informed him of my circumstances. My situation is pretty heavy in stuff that happens and I don't want to go through much details but my stbxBPDw did partake in severe DV including multiple arrest arrest and charges with that and involving alcohol and drug abuse, self harm in her cutting both wrists, losing our young daughter at only 25 months due to a con-genitive heart condition and much more.

On my second session my stbxBPDw sort of barged in. I will never forget the T s reaction when he saw her. He seemed like he suddenly got very excited, his attention was all on her and he seemed uncomfortable, jittery  and somewhat flustered.  I .was taken how he sits so relaxed with me comfortably one leg over the other to when she comes in both feet on the ground and leaning closer to her in his chair.

Well the session was nothing but her devaluating me and me taking it. His advice to me in a solo session was to always say like a broken record "I am sorry you feel that way." The next session the same devaluation occurred and when I stated the words the ":)r" T instructed me to, it fueled even more and intense devaluation and I felt worthless.

I would go back one more time to me and he said I just need to keep focused on my job, exercise and check in with him sometime. Meanwhile he would work with her.

When I received another beating a month later after a failed recycle he was more concerned about her committing suicide than anything else. Another thing to note, when I would text or call, rarely he would respond, only if he sensed she was in danger it seems he only sought what I knew about what was happening to her.

After three months another beating occurred while I was driving 65 mph on the expressway with her and my three children that almost ended our lives. Again the T was mostly concerned with her.

He finally diagnosed her with PTSD because of the loss of our child. However he seemed to ignore the many events that happened prior to my daughter dying. For instance going back in the beginning 12 years ago, our first few dates I was getting tired of her drinking and how she would act and I told her we were done, that night she slits (cutting) her first wrist. My biggest mistake was going to the ER the next day to "rescue" her.

When I went to the the ER she told me that her pastor, the pastor's wife, her mother (also BPD) and step dad (NPD) all prayed that I would be what God wanted me to be, her rescuer.  They dubbed me "The Nightwatchman", apparently somewhere referenced in the bible.

After the last beating I that will never get from her or anyone else again, I decided to research PSTD. The peculiar thing in my research is that Dissociative and Borderline seem to be a better match than PTSD.  So I asked him about it and he quipped "there may be some Borderline". Also a few things to mention, T never charged us a dime after a year plus of us going to him, he worked in a clinic not at a church and he told me we could never use his testimony in court.

When she was last arrest in March and she was calling me and all of her friends to bail her out of jail she must have found someone who I suspect had become her new boyfriend. I don't know when he came into her life but I noticed a change. I wondered how in the world could she just attach to someone so quickly. The T emphasized that I stay away from a new r/s that it would be a disaster and she was still seeing T I wasn't.

Just a few weeks ago I started an intense search for knowledge of BPD and I was shocked to read how absolutely, positively right on she is a Borderline, no doubt about it. I have only been at this site for 3 days now and I am so actively seeking to quench my thirst for more knowledge.

Sorry for the long drawn text but you are in the right place now and if I were to seek a T now, I would want to know in fact that they know about Borderline. People here are experts.

[Wize]

My stbx BPD wife and I are both christians and we tried a christian counselor before I understood what the problem was.  The sessions were ineffective as my wife had the counselor eating out of the palm of her hand.  I think the bottom line is, you can't pray your pwBPD better, you can't go to church to make them better, you can't read your bible enough to make them better.  Being a christian is comforting for me because I am sustained and guided by my faith through these difficult times.  But being a christian does not mean my wife's BPD will go away without a lot of intense, consistent BPD-focused treatment.  And that ain't happening any time soon. That's why she's going to be my exwife very soon. 

[StayStrongNow]

Wise, I can relate, my T was a Phd., an author, a professor and of course claimed to be a Christian. I agree that therapy for a BPD who really wants it and knows they have a problem can go into remission. I don't think God will help them unless they truly seek Him for release from this particular bondage. I don't think a Christian T can help much unless he really knows this disease.

[Mr Orange]

Sounds like you guys had similar experiences to mine. In addition I found the counselor's propensity to put more of the onus on me as the man not only compounded the problem, but also fueled my wife's stubbornness in regards to owning her side of things.

Out of curiosity, what does stbx stand for?

[SamwizeGamgee]

The question you pose in your original post is enough to get me started writing a book, so, I don't know how to sum up my feelings in a message board.  But, I'll go with a few ideas for now.

First off, outside of Christianity, it has proven ineffective to get couples counseling for an individual problem.  Meaning, marriage and couple's work can help with problems in communication, intimacy, goals, finances, and even help recovery from some things. However, when one of the individuals suffers from a fundamentally malformed personality, all the marriage counseling in the world won't help.  Imagine an army of dentists trying to build a space station - maybe something might work with luck, but, not by design.

Secondly, I consider myself a devoted Christian, but, to deal with suffering, I have adopted philosophies of pragmatism and Buddhism.  Inside I believe that all truth goes to the source (God) and Christ's teachings are certainly correct, but I think some of the phrasing is clearer to me with meditation and introspection dosed with Asian philosophy.  

I am still struggling to find my piece of God's will in my situation.  I know God will stand by and let us make all the mistakes we want, so I don't blame Him for not extending His almighty hand to prevent me from marrying my wife in the first place.  I also know that my suffering has made me much more Christlike and probably a much better person since I can have more compassion.  I think Christ went on a similar path as he suffered, not for his sins, but for ours - so that He would know how to support and love us.  I have gone there a little bit too.  But, I wish my lesson would end so that I can move on.  I question how much more God wants me to take of this situation.  

I have seen and heard so many people using religion, and namely Christianity (though even more with Islam), to justify and enforce truly dismal marriages.  I think many Bible teachers and preachers get worked up in finding God's will in the word in a book, over sensing the Spirit.  It seems that sometimes we use phrases of scripture to justify our behavior, change another's, or turn it into a contest of interpretation - that serves no good in the end.  

I'll add to this, based on my first point above, that many marriage counselors, though well-intending, just don't grasp BPD, psychopathology, or the depth of personality disorders that drive the troubles that we may face in our relationships.  

[StayStrongNow]

stbx = soon to be divorced

Check out the codes at:

Codes at bpdfamily

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.msg427962#msg427962

Look at that now you are a seasoned veteran learning the codes.

You are right male / female T they do favor the woman.

[StayStrongNow]

Woops I need to abide by the good code of conduct established at this fine site.

To my last post I want to add: "per my personal experience and in my observations in my and my stbxBPDw sessions only."

[HoneyB33]

I wanted to say that you're probably pretty spot on in your summary Mr. Orange.

I'm a Christian, and for years in the church I have been trying to get through issues that are largely around BPD and NPD individuals, and people within the church have very much been either completely unhelpful and not realizing that they have NO idea what I'm dealing with, or even destructive in the word of "advice" towards me.

I would say a couple of things to you. First--Don't let this stuff sink too deep into your relationship with God. I know a lot of this stuff, the pain, the confusion, and the constant attempt to explain to people who were not listening, really took a huge toll on my relationship with God.

I can really understand how you feel in this. That while there is so much truth in learning to not be self focused, but to look at God-- That is NOT the problem here. I've too have really experienced those "overlaying" statements that people who don't know hard issues, try to apply to every situation. And that's NOT what is going on here. You are 100% right in that you need to focus on how you feel, to heal, but also because it is telling you something.

Secondly, keep believing yourself. You know what's right. And you know what you need. When I started going to therapy, I decided to find a non-christian therapist because I was so tired of being downplayed by church "leadership". I realized that for myself, I needed to get in touch with basic human nature and needs, and stop feeling some jacked up "obligation" out of those things. Like the need to get away from abuse, but that gets overrided with ideas of "loyalty" and whatever. I knew I needed to get more in touch with myself and what I needed, rather than continuing to feel put down for what I needed.

But the truth is with all of this, is that I realized God was leading me to these things. And that my needs were not wrong, AND were in line with the Bible. I guess 2000 years ago basic human rights and needs were more obvious. Don't give up on relying upon God just because people who are too sheltered to know they're sheltered keep trying to put you down for your suffering. That's what Job's "friends" did to him for 30 chapters, and God rebuked THEM... .And try to know that you are on the right path, it's just a matter of figuring out where you can step, and where you can't, to go forward.

[HoneyB33]

... .it has proven ineffective to get couples counseling for an individual problem.  I'll add to this, based on my first point above, that many marriage counselors, though well-intending, just don't grasp BPD, psychopathology, or the depth of personality disorders that drive the troubles that we may face in our relationships.  

Yep and yep.

I liked a lot of what you had to say SamwizeGamgee

[Mr Orange]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It seems that my gut feelings about my counseling experiences are not baseless.

I sort of wonder if the root problem is not very much tied to the controversial topic of mental illness within the church and christian community. I know this is still a very divisive topic. I'm very much aware of and personally know those who are christians and deny the validity of conditions such as depression and anxiety, despite much research and science saying otherwise. My sister and her husband took a semester's worth of counseling classes at seminary. Suddenly they were telling me I didn't need the medication I was taking each day to manage my generalized anxiety. Wait, so you take a few classes and suddenly presume to be on the level of a prescribing physician with 8-10 years more experience? It's this sort of view that I worry about; that strong opined and vocal believers are doing damage in the name of God partially due to the fact that they have insufficient education and experience to back their counseling approach, and also in part to bad theology. I find it hard to see in the bible where anxiety and depression are outright refuted. It almost seems like believers feel God's sovereign power is somehow threatened by acknowledging the use of psychoactive medications and traditional psychotherapy. Why does one negate the other? Could God not have divinely inspired the evolution of such practices?

I also find too often that the dominant message of love within the Christian world is takes front and center to the detriment of those who need to be delivered by God. I could "love" my wife until the end of time by putting up with her shenanigans, but would it not seem a hindrance to what God might be trying to work in her life? For me, love without truth means nothing. Sometimes people need to hear the difficult message. If you support an alcoholic without ever forcing that person to seek help, is that not enabling? Why is mental health not looked at in a similar way? White knuckling it through the years or "staying together for the kids" is not seeking a loving and God-centered marriage. To me it seems like putting both spouses in prime position to be viable instruments for the devil's handy work.

Thanks again to everyone who commented. I appreciate the feedback. I'm in the process of trying to get in with a LPC who specializes in anxiety, child abuse, and personality disorders. I'm hoping she can provide some guidance and healing for my life.

[bunny4523]

I personally think you need a counselor/therapist who specializes in personality disorders.  And if this person turns out to be a Christian, even better.  But I think you need someone who understands and is familiar with this disorder.  

So personality disorder therapist first, Christian secondary... . 

This is such a complicated disorder.  I know that before I fell into it, I had no idea that these people live amongst us and appear to be functioning.  It is crazy scary to watch someone act one way and change into a completely different person. I never could have even imagined what I experienced. 

I personally saw a couples therapist, specialist and a church counselor. I let them each help me in the area they knew the most about.

[joeramabeme]

I personally think you need a counselor/therapist who specializes in personality disorders.  And if this person turns out to be a Christian, even better.  But I think you need someone who understands and is familiar with this disorder.  

So personality disorder therapist first, Christian secondary... . 

I second what bunny4523 says; your faith and a good BPD counselor are not necessarily commingled.  No disrespect, but as an occasional churchgoer my observation has been there are a number of the faithful that can only get by with faith as a crutch because they can find no other answers or don't have the capacity.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But for those of us seeking more, we need to work with others that have achieved a greater level of learning and awareness.  If you can find that in your faith community than that is great.  But I don't think that should be the final stop, particularly now that you know the truth. 

Perhaps one day you will be able to bring all this into your church and help someone else that is in the position you are today.

Blessings, JRB

[HoneyB33]

I think your questions are really spot on with everything you are going through Orange.

I think the biggest issue in the church is not necessarily even that the "advice" people is give, but that they haven't realized that wisdom determines where to give which advice. And that blanked ideas don't work. I agree that ppl feel threatened by things, and so they push back with these all inclusive ideologies that don't work for everything.

When I was dealing with a severely twisted NPD "friend", someone who was literally targeting me, stalking, slandering, and destroying my relationships with people, what "advice" I got was the same--love more. So now the abused is supposed to give more to the abuser? It's very backwards. But it's not at all what the Bible teaches. It's an idea, but it's not centered around Christ. God's love is for the abused/oppressed/orphan/widow/outsider. That's a central part to the gospel.

I also think you are right in these questions about is this actually love to just give to this person with mental illness. Because you're right, they don't learn anything from that. I think the reason the church is so adamant about staying together in marriage is because people don't have backbones, and they just leave. But we also have to look at what is happening when these ppl get into marriages, and literally just sit down and expect to be carried and tolerated for the rest of their life? That's not love. We only teach tolerance for what the Bible calls sin, rather than opposing it.

I think you are very much filled with questions that are right on point. There doesn't seem to be much to look forward to in the midst of all of this. But there is a lot to look forward to when we can see that we are getting closer to our true selves, and also God's heart. I hate what I have gone through in this, but honestly, I would have been so ignorant if I hadn't.

[JerryRG]

I talked to my BPDexgf pastor and he was well aware of her mental illness and told me he helped her as much as he could but she needed special care.

He wasn't fooled by her fake facade. Not sure how or why.

He told me to prepare to have my son full time and in the not too distant future I may be of great help to her new bf, to help him untangle this relationship and to heal as we all try so valiantly to do here.

My pastor has worked with persons with PD and he called my exgfs condition right from the beginning.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@HoneyB33 - you have a great way of putting things.  Thanks.  

I know for myself, that I am sitting at the edge of a chasm.  Right now, my wife and I appear to be a normal couple at church - even getting compliments on our great family and so forth.  When I hear this I wither inside - because it shows clearly how much of our opinions and esteem of others is superficial and possibly false.  I imagine the scandal it would cause if I go ahead with a separation and divorce.  I also imagine there will be a handful of turncoats who will judge and blame me for hurting my darling pious wife.  In fact, I am having a hard time thinking of people who will first of all withhold judgement, and secondly, stand by me - or better yet, stay out of it.

I also consider the shock wave that will go through the kids if I divorce.  We teach marriage is permanent and ordained of God - how can dad just throw it out?  What does God say?  :)oes dad throw God out too?  What do I have in my future if my parents get divorced?

All these are valid questions and concerns.  All make sense when you consider emotional abuse, covert depression, verbal abuse, and the generational cycle of abuse that perpetuates it.  But, none of those topics make it into the congregation of gossip, or even the private counseling with an untrained clergy.  

I got married to my wife mostly because we were at a marriageable age and station in life, and she was one of a few of my faith anywhere around.  So, although not an arranged marriage per se, I feel as though it was a structured arrangement using, unfortunately, religion as a base - over individual judgement. Which, is all good when it works out, or when two faithful (and healthy and well-adjusted) people meet and marry.  Having religion in common, and especially an equal devotion to said religion can make the different between divorce and success in marriage.  For me, maybe religion has prevented divorce but only at extreme personal cost and suffering.  I've gotten past blaming God, blaming myself, and being angry.  I accept it now as simply how life worked out.  

I do accept that I am a much better person for having suffered they way I do.  Maybe I wish there was a way I could learn to have compassion on unhappily married people, abuse victims (especially the victims of insidious emotional abuse), but for me, I guess this is how I learned.  I also have learned about myself, feelings, boundaries, validation, listening, being the one stable parent (at time feelings quite single), suffering, patience, keeping my emotions in control, and so forth.  Again, it would be more fun if there was another way to learn and master these skills, but, for me, the lessons came from my Christian marriage and all the suffering it caused.  

I can tell I'm way off topic and rambling, so I'll can it for now. I hope this has meaning to someone else too

[StayStrongNow]

SamwizeGamgee thank you. Even though my stbxBPDw filed papers the day after her arrest for DV on me, I tried to reconcile several times, twice my reconcile attempts ended when she beat me again.

I tried seeing a Christian T but that didn't go well as described in an earlier post above.  I also joined a prayer group and we all prayed for the r/s knowing that God hates divorce.

I went through horrible misery trying to hold on and finally gave up on the r/s believing God also doesn't want me to go on and be miserable. I suffered a long time and wondered where God's promise of He wouldn't leave me was, where was He?

What I learned in the past few weeks has enlightened me to such an extent that I not only see clearly what happened but now I believe I can foresee what is going to happen.  God never left, He's always with me.

I still hurt but I am in a better place now and I know God has plans for me in His timing, not mine.

[Mr Orange]

Samwize, I really feel for you. It's one of the toughest aspects of being in a marriage with a pwBPD, because being a Christian you know how much God hates divorce. It was the thing that got me down for so long, and resulted in me putting up with a lot of things that I should not have before I finally decided to separate. Let me share some of the encouraging words I've come to learn, and things other strong mature believers have shared with me.

You alluded to one of them, but I'll reinforce it. Think about your situation and take the hard absolute biblical command of never divorcing out of your head for just a moment. You know you have a God who loves you and wants nothing but the best for you, even though that might mean going through tough times. He delights in our suffering because he is so excited at the good things he knows can come out of it. That was a hard truth for me to get for a long time. But also, do you really think God would want you to remain in a situation where you're constantly feeling beaten down, miserable, lifeless? That's not the God I know.

Second, my sister is someone who is very wise. She has spent time as a missionary in China and has a very strong walk with the Lord. I've always had great respect for her opinion. When I first separated from my wife several months ago, I thought my sis might be one of the first to say, "I know it's tough buddy, but God hates divorce and you need to find a way to make this work". That's not what she told me at all. She had witnessed firsthand the pain and suffering I'd been through over the past 3 years, and saw how much I tried to do everything I could to fix it, despite my spouse putting in little to no effort on her part. I told my sister, "I feel like I would be going against God to leave her because there was no infidelity and the bible does not condone divorce unless there is infidelity". My sister being the wise person she is told me, ":)on't think of infidelity in terms of just whether or not one of you slept with another person while married. Denying your husband the love, care, attention, and respect that she is called to give as a Godly wife, and showing no desire to work on those things, that is a form of infidelity".

That was a real lightbulb moment for me, and really changed how I viewed the situation. I'm certainly not telling you what to do at all; we all have to look at our situations and make our own personal decisions. I just thought I'd share a few things I've learned hoping you may at least find some encouragement.

Cheers,
Orange

[bunny4523]

My sister being the wise person she is told me, ":)on't think of infidelity in terms of just whether or not one of you slept with another person while married. Denying your husband the love, care, attention, and respect that she is called to give as a Godly wife, and showing no desire to work on those things, that is a form of infidelity".

I love that!  Have any of you ever thought you weren't listening to God in the first place when you got married?  That maybe that wasn't the person you were supposed to marry?  I only go there because I feel so deeply that God sent my current boyfriend to me... .that this is the man I have been desiring and waiting for.  This is the man I was meant to be with that allows me to live my life and be the person God intended me to be.  Hard for me to believe God didn't have this blessing planned for me.


Bunny

[Mr Orange]

Yes, that is a question I struggled and wrestled with throughout the tumultuous past two years. God, why did you put this person in my life? What is the purpose for this? As I've said, the two counselors I saw through my church were of no help. If anything, it only made things worse.

I'm very excited because I have my first session tomorrow with a LPC who is a Christian, *BUT* her therapy approach is not, per her words "biblical counseling". She believes a Christian should pray, be involved in church, read the bible, etc, but those are things you should be doing in your daily life anyway. She doesn't feel the need to sit down and go over spiritual truths I likely already believe and aware of, but rather get into the details of what was really going on that got the relationship to this point and how I can heal if there is not going to be reconciliation. She has experience dealing with anxiety, addiction, depression, childhood trauma, sexual abuse, and personality disorders. Her approaches are cognitive behavioral therapy, DBT, mindfulness, and a host of other traditional psychotherapy approaches. It was music to my ears!

[SamwizeGamgee]

Very promising.  It sounds as though she's got what counts, where it counts.  I believe that God wants us to use the world we have been given - including medicine and science as they develop.  Best wishes.

I have still stayed away from church sponsored counseling, but, with a counselor like you describe I would be very hopeful indeed.

And then, I ask myself if I would try counseling as a last ditch "if this can't fix it" permission to finally leave. I think I would be at that point.  Almost like I'm waiting for permission from a biblical counselor / therapist.  Interesting.

[Mr Orange]

Oh, well I should clarify that the new counselor I am seeing tomorrow is not affiliated with the church. She is a licensed professional counselor with her own private practice. She just happens to be a Christian. When I spoke to her on the phone earlier today she said she usually only brings her faith into the conversation if a patient specifically wants that. So just wanted to clarify that.

I'll probably post in the next day or so with an update on how it went. It shows there are Christian therapists/counselors out there though who are not practicing within a church and do not make biblical counseling the focus of treatment.

[teapay]

My W and I are Christians and met in the context of the Church.  She was a board member of her church, well plugged in to her pastor and elders.  After we were married she served as a biblical counselor in our church for a number of years.  I was also involved in mission activities.  The context and intimacy of marriage and the stress of 5 kids brought my W’s BPD to the surface.  We were in biblical marriage counseling within the first two years of our marriage.  Much like the rest of you, biblical counseling, pastoral counseling and the church (for well over a decade) had been pretty ineffective and not much help, nor much comfort to me.  Any that’s not even mentioning the countless bible studies, rebaptisms,r altar calls, rededications, healing ministries, prayer groups, small groups, ect... for her and me.

My experience has been that much of this advice isn’t coming from God, but just from human church members who don’t understand what’s going on, don’t really know what to say, are trying to shore up their own faith or are  just plain afraid to get involved.  They don’t have any skin in the game.
I’ve learned to back away from these things in the case of BPD.  In many ways biblical teachings and church advice can get in there and cloud your and others judgment and keep partners in a bad situation.  At least, keep on searching for someone like Jerry found.  I’ve fallen back on my own rational judgment and sense of self to handle these issues now.  In some church contexts this would be an abomination and grievous sin. 
There are lots of devoted Christians as well as secular non-believer’s on these boards.    There doesn’t seem to be any significant difference between how they handle their troubled relationships.  All are in a certain degree in pain, confused, afraid and so now. Faith or non-faith doesn’t appear to carry much weight in outcomes.  The overwhelming factor seems to be were the partner falls on the disease spectrum and how honest and healthy the partner is with themselves.  You only have control over and how honest and healthy you are with yourself.  That is the sweet spot to put the focus on and which gives the biggest payoff.  If your faith assist here, great.  If not, I’d caution against banging your head on it and suggest keep on searching for whatever works.

[LilMe]

I went to Christian marriage counseling at our church when married to my first husband.  He refused to go; said there was nothing wrong with our marriage.  He was physically and mentally abusive to myself and one of our children in particular (the others too, but one he really targeted).  I was advised I must submit to him more and have more sex with him and that I was too easy on my children and should discipline more like him.  I trusted the church, thought divorce was wrong, and endured the abuse for 20 years until my children begged me to leave.  The son who got the brunt of the abuse is now 22 and really messed up.  All the children are grown now and question their faith and do not attend church.

My second husband and I went to a Christian marriage counselor who insisted we only had simple communication problems.  uBPD was able to manipulate and charm her and she even went as far as saying he had apologized one time for physically abusing me so I should just forgive him and act like it never happened (although the mental and emotional abuse continued).

He also went to our priest (a woman) for 'counseling' when I left the first time and she suggested that I left because I was having an affair!   I left because he drank from morning until he passed out and was abusive to myself and the children.

He currently goes to an Assembly of God church and is in some kind of counseling with the pastor.  I called the pastor and told him that uBPD was holding everything I and the children own and wouldn't even let us have our clothes.  He said he would talk to uBPD and call me the next week.  That was almost 3 months ago and he never called.  The children and I had nothing and slept on the floor of our uncarpeted rental house until a group of homosexuals we met at a food pantry got together and donated clothing and furniture.  They still stop by regularly to make sure we are OK.  uBPD also called the child abuse hotline and reported me for sleeping the floor and having no furniture or refrigerator.

I honestly think these people are just naive and possibly do not get proper training in personality disorders.  The sad thing is that it has damaged my children's faith in God.  I understand that God is not the problem, but my children haven't realized that yet.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I've been still thinking on this topic.  One of the scriptures used a lot to discourage divorce is Matthew 19, v 3- 9.  This is the basis for a lot of the ideas that divorce is contrary to God's will.  I accepted that.  But, when did you read about God lowering his standards because of sinners that couldn't handle it? 

Last year though, I read an article that explained to me that it was not necessarily for selfishness (sins) that people are granted divorce, or that marriage is too hard; rather, it is so that the victims of the selfish and sinners can escape.  That turned it around on me.  I have started to believe that divorce was intended as an escape for victims, not a easy out for people who didn't feel like living the higher law. 

I'm still married and struggling, but, not as much about the Biblical condemnation of divorce anymore.  Unfortunately, I had also reached a point that I am decided to make my decision about divorce regardless of what scriptures and church dictate.  I feel like I've betrayed my faith a little bit, but, I am making what feels like a life-and-death survival decision.  To a degree, I still feel as though if I pursue divorce, I'd be on my own - since I'm not following standard church doctrine, and why would God help me?  Plus, who can prove I'm in an abusive relationship that would justify divorce according to scripture?

I was hoping to get more comfort from church, but, my pathway of coping with the pain of marriage, and healing, has gone to meditation, psychology, and self-help Buddhism. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

I've been still thinking on this topic.  One of the scriptures used a lot to discourage divorce is Matthew 19, v 3- 9.  This is the basis for a lot of the ideas that divorce is contrary to God's will.  I accepted that.  But, when did you read about God lowering his standards because of sinners that couldn't handle it? 

Last year though, I read an article that explained to me that it was not necessarily for selfishness (sins) that people are granted divorce, or that marriage is too hard; rather, it is so that the victims of the selfish and sinners can escape.  That turned it around on me.  I have started to believe that divorce was intended as an escape for victims, not a easy out for people who didn't feel like living the higher law. 

I'm still married and struggling, but, not as much about the Biblical condemnation of divorce anymore.  Unfortunately, I had also reached a point that I am decided to make my decision about divorce regardless of what scriptures and church dictate.  I feel like I've betrayed my faith a little bit, but, I am making what feels like a life-and-death survival decision.  To a degree, I still feel as though if I pursue divorce, I'd be on my own - since I'm not following standard church doctrine, and why would God help me?  Plus, who can prove I'm in an abusive relationship that would justify divorce according to scripture?

I was hoping to get more comfort from church, but, my pathway of coping with the pain of marriage, and healing, has gone to meditation, psychology, and self-help Buddhism. 

I am not particularly religious at this point in my life, but I have experience with Christian counseling, particularly Christian couples counseling.

My main issue with the Christian worldview in a counseling context is that there tends to be a bias to view everything as a matter of willpower, namely man's ability to conform his will to God's will.  Issues like personality disorders do not fit well into this schematic.  This worldview presumes that through prayer, dedication, and submission an individual can change his or her behavior into what the Bible says he or she must do.  When applied to a marriage or relationship situation, I think this too often manifests as an attitude that if your relationship is failing, it's because you're just not trying hard enough.  (In my religious family, my anxiety disorder was also viewed as a problem with just not having self-control.)

Scenarios like this set up God as judge, jury, and prosecutor and the struggling person as a poor little island, trying with his or her limited reserves to live up to the high standards of an angry God.  Isn't God supposed to be helping us with our struggles, not judging us for our failures?  It doesn't seem that way if a counselor is telling you, even indirectly, to just TRY HARDER.

You can't try hard enough for a person with a personality disorder.  You.  Just.  Can't.

If you are making your best effort and it is undermined at every turn by an individual whose needs are so deep and complex that you could never meet them, this is not a healthy situation.  The last thing that you need to do is MORE submission and MORE dedication and MORE emotional investment, if you are burned out from this.  Martyrdom is not the answer.  I think that Christian counselors need to step up and encourage people to practice good self-love and self-care before they try to rescue and sacrifice for others.  You can't be a good partner or a good parent to your children if your emotional reserves are perpetually exhausted.

[Mr Orange]

I honestly think these people are just naive and possibly do not get proper training in personality disorders. 

^This all the way. As I'm about to share, my experience with my new counselor who is a licensed professional counselor with her own private practice, and *IS* a christian, but doesn't use the "biblical counseling" approach pretty much affirmed what you just said. I had arrived at the same conclusion after my bad experiences with christian counselors and it was nice to have a fellow believer, who is also a professional therapist validate those feelings.

Yesterday I had my first session with a LPC I researched online who is familiar with mood disorders, personality disorders, anxiety, childhood trauma, sex abuse, and marital problems. For those who don't know, I've been separated from my wife for about 5 months now. My wife has refused to change or get help for herself, so all I can do is work on me. I was so excited when I found this therapist because while she shares my Christian beliefs, she does not practice "biblical counseling", but rather traditional talk therapy, CBT, DBT, mindfulness, and other approaches.

Today's first session was SUCH a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone listening to me and helping me process my emotions, validating the pain I've been through, and not just saying "Well, you're depressed because you are too inwardly focused and not appreciating the blessings from God". Oh man, it was so helpful. I spent a lot of time explaining the history of our 2 year marriage from hell. I told her I had come across BPD at some point, and the more I read, the more it fit my wife. She said while she would never diagnose a person without a number of sessions with the individual, it did sound in fact like she exhibits a large number of BPD traits; and at least very likely exists somewhere on the Axis II spectrum.

Having a professional clinician hear all of these experiences and validate that yes, it is very possible you have been living with a mentally ill person for the past couple of years, and given the circumstances you did nothing wrong by separating. She also said that my standing firm on not getting back together with my wife unless she also is willing to go to therapy was not only reasonable, but demonstrated that I can establish healthy boundaries. She was very realistic about the dismal odds that my wife will actually choose to engage in therapy and stick with it. According to T even if she does do intensive therapy it will likely be a good bit before my wife would get much better.

Anyway, this is the most positive I've felt in months and while I'm still very much hurt and dealing with all of the pain and negative emotions, I finally feel like I'm on the path toward healing, even if it's on the distant horizon. Hopefully this can be an encouragement to others that even if your pwBPD refuses to seek treatment, there is help out there for you. You just have to be patient and find the right therapist.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Mr. Orange- So happy for you!  It feels great.  I only had a handful of T visits last year, but, to be able to speak openly, and then hear back that what I felt was OK - well, that's amazing.

My favorite therapist this year has been distance running and time to think. 

@Greeneyedmonster - Thank you.  Your view helps me validate mine.  I had felt that so much of traditional approaches to helping marriage just boiled down to formless suffering.  Too often I hear "Pray together" "don't go to bed angry" "put your faith in God" "love your wife as Christ loved the church" - all implying that my suffering in marriage is due to my shortcomings, and something I can eventually get righteous enough to solve.  Ugh.  I've all but given up on marriage.  I don't want it to spread to giving up on God too.

[gotbushels]

I went to Christian marriage counseling at our church when married to my first husband.  He refused to go; said there was nothing wrong with our marriage.  He was physically and mentally abusive to myself and one of our children in particular (the others too, but one he really targeted).  I was advised I must submit to him more and have more sex with him and that I was too easy on my children and should discipline more like him.  I trusted the church, thought divorce was wrong, and endured the abuse for 20 years until my children begged me to leave. 

The advice you were given makes me so angry.

Having read about how disorders pass through people to children by abuse makes me even angrier.

Then I read this:

The son who got the brunt of the abuse is now 22 and really messed up.  All the children are grown now and question their faith and do not attend church.

I agree with what you pointed out later that it looks like the children's experiences with Christianity was diminished. Possibly because of the direction behaviours went in response to the Christian counselling.

When I recall that DBT and BPD research didn't seem to move substantially toward efficacy until the 90s to 2000 period, my anger moves to sadness. The counsellor would have had an extremely hard time dealing with a psychiatric issue, even if they went looking for information. Then it just turns to pity for the situation.

I honestly think these people are just naive and possibly do not get proper training in personality disorders.  The sad thing is that it has damaged my children's faith in God.  I understand that God is not the problem, but my children haven't realized that yet.

I admire your faith. Thank you for sharing and for this additional perspective.

[teapay]

I've tried christian marriage counseling,  secular couples counseling and individual counseling on several different occasions .  For me the most effective has been individual counseling with a family therapist who has had experience in DCYS system.  Whether you are a man or woman, generally a counselor with that specialized experience will know what you are talking about.  Secular couples counseling has limited effectiveness with BPD and you may likely experience some of what you do in christian counseling.  It is interesting to me to see how christian couples, secular couples and individuals therapist take, view and advise on the same issues and same events in my marriage, evening knowing my W has a formal dx of BPD.