Do pwBPD always know why they end things?

[joeramabeme]

Because it all hinges on how they are feeling at the time.  For their intimate relationships, their feelings dictates their reality.

Schwing
Really great post - everything you wrote!  And you summed it up perfectly, their emotions dictate everything.

That comment takes me back to one of the many fights she and I had about absolutely nothing except her contrived fantasies about something I never said.  When I wrestled her into factual submission her response was "my feelings are real".  It was if she was saying, never mind the reality of the situation, my feelings are more relevant to my responses than reality.

There is no way anyone without (and perhaps even with) the disorder could ever calibrate their own internal worlds to the world of BPD.

All so sad and I thank you again for your insightful reply.

JRB

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[myself]

It was if she was saying, never mind the reality of the situation, my feelings are more relevant to my responses than reality.

I experienced this many times with my ex, too. She actually said, "Well, even though that didn't really happen, I felt that it did, so now you have to deal with it." Like I was supposed to help her cut, paste, deny, warp, change reality to fit her shifting moods. The less I did of that, the more she'd push and pull, disappear, whatever. I know she was rewriting her past while with me, as her stories kept changing, and am 99.9% sure she's also been doing it in regards to the time she spent with me. Because she most likely isn't really facing the reality of her feelings. Or why she ended it with me.

[MapleBob]

When I wrestled her into factual submission her response was "my feelings are real".  It was if she was saying, never mind the reality of the situation, my feelings are more relevant to my responses than reality.

Hey, that's MY ex's line!  

[JerryRG]

Would this explain why my exgf would possibly think or believe I rapped her just 2 months before we were engaged or why she repeatedly blamed me for stalking her when I never did at all? Accused of slashing her tires, stealing her internet and sleeping with other women, including her sister?

And when trying to defend myself nothing I did or said was accepted by her, she just choose to believe her version no matter what the factual evidence proved.

I would present her with evidence or eye witnesses and still she refused to listen to me. The more adiment I tried to defend myself the more she believed I was overreacting and proving my guilt. Very heartbreaking to be accused of horrible things while being innocent.

My gosh I never realized just how sick she is, and how I would most often be blamed and accept that everything was my fault.

The most disturbing fact in all this discovery is that these facts will diminish in hours or days and I will spin in confusion once more.

I really need to write a simple concise list of hard facts that I can trust and believe. Maybe I would stop searching for the magic bullet, the holy grail that would prove her behaviour is in no way related to anything I've done and that it does not make me a flawed person because I failed to love her enough.

Great post and great follow up responses, really explains things in clear simple logic.

[HoneyB33]

I experienced this many times with my ex, too. She actually said, "Well, even though that didn't really happen, I felt that it did, so now you have to deal with it." Like I was supposed to help her cut, paste, deny, warp, change reality to fit her shifting moods. The less I did of that, the more she'd push and pull, disappear, whatever.

I can relate to this a lot. It felt like this is exactly what my ex wanted me to do, esp when she kept trying to discard me. She wanted me to come back around and tell her whatever she wanted to hear, and if I wouldn't? Then she'd just drop me again. It's like she was always waiting for me to come around and lie to her and distort reality to make her feel better--and I wouldn't. I always tried to work things out, but she only wanted me to lie to her and punish me for not doing so.

JerryRG I really feel for you in what you're going through, esp in those horrific accusations. I remember one time after my ex and I slept together, she pulled out this whole "I didn't want to", and it made me feel so foul. I felt lie I had done something so wrong, like I had used her or something. It's horrible. But of course, how would I be at fault for that? She never said anything, and from what I could read of her, there wasn't any sign of a "no". It's an outrageous thing to do to someone. I'm so sorry for what you are going through, I can really relate to it. You keep reading all of these things, but you still keep questioning yourself and tracing your steps, back into these already very faded memories, horrified at the "what if".

It's a very different thing to have someone yell at you, "You're an ass" than to have someone tell you an accusation in form of that, saying you hurt them in the most horrific way you could possibly imagine. I really get being stuck in that circle, questioning over and over if you've done something so awful. I've gotten stuck in that a lot. A lot of it is that you have to really decide if it's true or not. You know it's not true? Just like I've had to come to a place of really knowing that I am not an abuser, even if I yelled at my ex a couple of times. That conflict really gets you stuck, and you have to decide. You gotta make a choice. When you have a clear moment, right out what is true and why. And when you get in those circular moments, DECIDE what is true and focus on it.

I'm still struggling with things like that. I still get triggered back into things. But learning about BPD is really helping with that. In those moments, I have decide on what I knew before I fell into this pit, before I fell into worrying if I had done something wrong. That questioning, when it gets in, really can make you sick (I know). You gotta decide. We both do. Every day.

[Leonis]

My ex decided that it was because I didn't really love her and treated her like a project. As in, she feels that I don't see her for who she is, except as someone who's psychotic and who has issues.

There are no words for this level of twisted thinking.

[Ahoy]

When I wrestled her into factual submission her response was "my feelings are real".  It was if she was saying, never mind the reality of the situation, my feelings are more relevant to my responses than reality.  

It's called emotional reasoning. As we all know it stems from facts=feelings. From what I've read about it, it drives therapists and psychologists up the wall because no matter what logic, practices and theory they demonstrate to their patients (the NPD/BPD's) their emotions are more valid.

I see this as being THE prime reason our relationships all eventually break down.

"Yes I know you want a big house and lots of animals and a new car and lots of land BUT we will have to work hard and save hard to get it"

"No I know we both want these things, I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I'm just telling you all this takes money and a bit of time"

"I'm not insulting you or your intelligence, Look I'll show you on a piece of paper, this is what we both earn... ."

"please don't cry, I'm not trying to call you stupid, I'm just saying we can't do all this and go on holidays every three months"

Logic doesn't work. Logic/lateral thinking is very a important part of maintaining an adult relationship (particularly if you actually want to set goals)  

[once removed]

Logic/lateral thinking is very a important part of maintaining an adult relationship

so is communication and lack thereof, another primary reason these relationships broke down.

how would we react to someone "wrestling us into factual submission"? thats an entrenched position from which to communicate, which insists on our point of view. most people would respond with defensiveness, or aggressiveness, non responsiveness, or otherwise hunkering down.

im not pretending its an easy task to communicate with someone with cognitive distortions, amplified and shifting needs, high emotional state, etc. fortunately for all of us, we dont have to do that anymore. i am saying that "my feelings are real" is a true statement, for all of us, that deserves respect and acknowledgment. "yeah but they arent reality" or really any "yeah, but" statement is an invalidating response. i assure you i heard the same expression and responded the same way.

in retrospect, we could have saved ourselves a lot of stress (short of exiting the relationship) by practicing validation, good boundaries, and especially not JADEing. even better, we can use these skills in all of our future relationships of all kinds. they work with people that dont experience cognitive distortions too 

learn more here:
Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)
Communication Skills - Validation
Validation skill - stop invalidating others

[pjstock42]

Communication (or lack thereof) was definitely a huge issue for me in terms of why I think my ex BPD ended things.

Even though she had no problem writing me an incredibly detailed email about how much of a terrible person I am after she had discarded me, she never once brought up any of these issues like a normal adult would in a healthy relationship. Stupid & petty things such as sarcastic comments made in passing as a joke were cataloged and used to portray me as a monster, whereas if she would have just asked me about what I said/did at the time, we could have had a rational discussion about what I really meant but that never happened.

There were so many times where she would bring up topics that I have strong opinions on out of nowhere. She would egg me on until I said something that maybe didn't fall 100% in line with her viewpoint then change the subject, little did I know that she was keeping track of all of this to be able to use it against me later without giving me a chance to defend myself.

[HoneyB33]

Communication (or lack thereof) was definitely a huge issue for me in terms of why I think my ex BPD ended things.

Even though she had no problem writing me an incredibly detailed email about how much of a terrible person I am after she had discarded me, she never once brought up any of these issues like a normal adult would in a healthy relationship. Stupid & petty things such as sarcastic comments made in passing as a joke were cataloged and used to portray me as a monster, whereas if she would have just asked me about what I said/did at the time, we could have had a rational discussion about what I really meant but that never happened.

THIS. This is exactly the crap my ex pulled with me. All of a sudden after the discard, when I'm frantically trying to ask or understand, "What is wrong?" THEN there was this whole onslaught of accusations. I was "overpowering", "controlling", "mentally unstable", "selfish", etc. All of them accompanied with all these random memories. She told me of how she was never "allowed" to communicate for herself because of the one time she tried to put this accusation on me (about 4 months in) and I fought back. The accusation by the way was when we were playing cards with her brothers, and I said, "No, you're explaining it wrong." On the drive home she sulked and tried to tell me that she was embarrassed because of "how I let someone speak to me like that." She had already set me up as this "overbearing abuser" and her some victim. She was embarrassed of how she let someone speak to her? And all the implications applied with that. At the time, I didn't realize what was going on, but I just snapped at her. I was SO angry, but didn't know why at the time. Now I do--you were setting a stage in front of your family of me abusing you! Over a card game! So anyways, this incident is the entire reason she had a year later for her lack of communication. She said she had "tried" before, but of course I was just SO "overbearing" in standing up for myself, that it was my fault she hadn't communicated this before.

It left me wondering if she had been so unhappy, and how had I not seen it. She even told me of a time we slept together and she didn't want to. I felt awful! How could I?... .All of this AFTER everything. And the really annoying part is that I actually was pretty good at reading her mind. But of course, she hated me for that because then I could actually call her on her BS. The harder I worked to understand or "fix" things, the more it became my fault. It was such a trap. Hindsight is 20/20.

[HoneyB33]

Once Removed, I probably shouldn't even say this, but I find your comments extremely counter productive. If it was just someone here on the forum, I wouldn't say anything, but as a site monitor, I think it's different to say something. I don't think any of us that are trying to the "detaching from wounds" thread need to hear about how to communicate with a BPD, or how their feelings are "valid". These people have been like a gunshot to the chest, and their illness has tore apart our lives. All because of how they "see things" and not at all because of anything we did. Maybe on a bright green day, when I'm way past this, I can look back on my ex and feel pity for her. I do feel pity for her today in ways. But what I need is to focus on myself. And have compassion for ME, not her.

I guess for you, you found a lot of solace in seeing things from their point of view. But I don't think that's helpful here, or needed. I don't give a flying bag of crap about how my ex might see things. They live in a delusional world. They are ill. And the more I tried to "understand" where they were coming from, the more ill it made me. I strongly think your compassion is misguided, and counter productive to the people here trying to heal. It is to me at least.

[once removed]

i hear you HoneyB33. we are all at different stages of healing and detachment.

the message isnt so much about pity or compassion for our exes or people with BPD. its about a balanced understanding of how the relationship broke down - what is productive is to learn, take what we have learned, and use it to go on and build healthy relationships in the future. learning to validate, for example, is a skill that will take you far in relationships of all kinds. its understood we are not practicing these skills with our exes.

[HoneyB33]

learning to validate, for example, is a skill that will take you far in relationships of all kinds. its understood we are not practicing these skills with our exes.

I think all of us can look at things and see where we can possibly validate more. But I think you're wrong to say that we didn't validate enough, and that's our "part" in this. This is not a healthy relationship. This is someone expecting you to carry their entire self-esteem for them, lie to them, and basically be treated like trash and expected to celebrate them for it? What kind of "validation" is that? The question here is not where do I need to learn to validate a delusional, abusive, "partner". The question is, "Why the hell was I with this person in the first place?"

[once removed]

But I think you're wrong to say that we didn't validate enough, and that's our "part" in this.

respectfully, no one is saying this. validation is not a be all end all, and it would have made my relationship no more satisfying for me. my own part, and the part of most others, is far more loaded and complex. most of us did the wrestling into factual submission referred to (i rather like the wording of that). i have my stories and im probably a pretty egregious example (remember, the belief that if we say it louder we will be heard is one of the ten beliefs that can get us stuck). howd we get to that point?

if i read you correctly, you are describing validating the invalid (things like abuse), which is not the goal or anything i would advise.

The question is, "Why the hell was I with this person in the first place?"

good question  . its a question that takes a lot of digging to find the answer(s) to.

[bunny4523]

. I don't give a flying bag of crap about how my ex might see things. They live in a delusional world. They are ill. And the more I tried to "understand" where they were coming from, the more ill it made me. I strongly think your compassion is misguided, and counter productive to the people here trying to heal. It is to me at least.

I think this is a place we need to be to stay focused on ourselves otherwise we stay in the "blaming ourself" phase.  Which most of us were in for too long, time to get out.

Once Removed:  I understand what you are saying but I'd like to also point out that maybe the way we react "triggers" BPD but not everyone.  I have been the same person all my relationships, even the ones that ended and this is the only relationship where he tore me down to a useless piece of crap.  So I think that is where Honey is coming from.  Yes we understand how BPD thought process is different but we don't want to take the blame for how they CHOOSE to react to their emotions by feeling like we should "validate" them.  Whether we said something that would put the average person on defense or not... .there is an appropriate and inappropriate way to respond. BPD tend to respond inappropriately... .I think some of us just need to be reminded of thought otherwise we start internalizing again and that is counter productive to our healing.

[MapleBob]

Alright, let's split the difference here: I don't think there's actually a disagreement going on in this thread at all. Here's why:

Sure, we can joke and jab all we want about just why someone was feeling the way they were feeling at a given moment... .but, ultimately, they were feeling it. Those feelings are real. So it's possible (and probably preferable) to validate that, however outlandish the logic behind it might seem. A lot of us have/had difficulty with that, and it probably would have helped our relationships to a certain extent.

However, once those feelings are being presented as logical justification for abusive or abandoning behaviors, that is a real problem. And that's exactly what many of us here experienced with our pwBPD.

[hurting300]

They might be "mentally ill" but make no mistake they FULLY UNDERSTAND the actions they take. They do not have an illness that prevents them from knowing right from wrong. I am not going to understand why they do what they do from their perspective. An abuser is an abuser. What I think we need to do stop justifying abusers behaviors that's crazy. All we need to focus on is WHY we stayed. WHY did we counter abuse?

[joeramabeme]

so is communication and lack thereof, another primary reason these relationships broke down
how would we react to someone "wrestling us into factual submission"? thats an entrenched position from which to communicate, which insists on our point of view. most people would respond with defensiveness, or aggressiveness, non responsiveness, or otherwise hunkering down.

I have been away so delayed response to this post.  

I agree with HoneyB33; I think this comment is “counter productive” and I would add that it is also a bit  inaccurate.  It assumes that we should be partially culpable for trying to counter the accusation that we are off track based on the premise that feelings are facts;  feelings are valid, not factual!  We were frequently spot on track with the facts but not the feelings.

Wrestling someone into factual submission is not counterproductive in itself.  Call it by whatever you want; it can be very healthy to try and walk with someone step-by-step through the facts as they happened so that both of you can see the reality of a given situation and why each of you responded the way you did.  I disagree that; “most people would respond with defensiveness, or aggressiveness, non responsiveness, or otherwise hunkering down”.  I have done this in many healthy relationships; it typically works well for each person involved that is interested in understanding what went wrong.  

“that is interested in understanding what went wrong”.  <-- THIS is where we get off track in the communications.  pwBPD are not as much interested in understanding what went wrong as they are interested in soothing their chaotic feelings and transferring them on to the people who are closest to them; aka manipulation.  I can agree with what you say from the point of view; if you are an insecure person with a split personality, this form of communication style may likely feel intimidating or degrading.  But I disagree that this is any negative reflection on us whatsoever; unless you know the person is unable to handle the facts and has a serious mental health issue, in which case you are truly being malevolent.  Most of us here had no clue of any of this and certainly have no responsibility in assuming that this was the case.

IMO, there is a fine line between understanding what went wrong in our relationships and understanding what is legitimately our responsibility.  Trying to communicate in an adult fashion with someone that pretends they understand, but actually does not, is not a non’s responsibility nor are they culpable.  I have successfully used this communication technique with others and continue to successfully do so with healthy people.  pwBPD are not healthy and we should not benchmark the expediency of our communication techniques based on these relationships.

[once removed]

IMO, there is a fine line between understanding what went wrong in our relationships and understanding what is legitimately our responsibility.  

yes, no easy task, and a very delicate discussion. i know that in my case, i was very prone to the self blame that bunny4523 mentioned. the very idea that i had any room for improvement (either in regard to the relationship or in general), any at all, was highly triggering, and represented to me the idea that i had screwed up the entire relationship, that it was all my fault, that i had lost my soul mate, and i would desperately want to go back in time. my comfort at the time was telling myself the opposite: there was nothing i could have done, it was all her, i should thank my lucky stars to be out (i do to this day). i begged those close to me to remind of that. daily.

as well as anyone, i understand that this takes a lot of time and distance. a member once stated that arriving here and being asked to examine your role is akin to losing a child and being asked to find your role in that. i try never to lose sight of that sentiment. it was not for a couple of years after i felt i had recovered from the relationship that i could see my own emotional immaturity and where i had room for improvement. it was no longer about my ex. i did the best i could with what i had at the time. we all did. these were extreme circumstances. sometimes the most extreme circumstances, and how we got there, are the most revealing. what they reveal is not always pretty or comfortable. it is important to reflect, not react.

these are repeating themes being expressed:

1. they are mentally ill - not only is there no point in understanding their perspective, it is counterproductive.
2. the place that we got off track in communication is that our exes arent/werent interested in understanding what went wrong.
3. our exes are unhealthy - we should not benchmark the expediency of our communication techniques based on these relationships (Bowen - Family Systems Theory would beg to differ here).
4. we should only consider why this happened to us

fair enough. anyone figured it out yet?

[enlighten me]

Hi all. Ive been off here for a while but just wanted to add my opinion on this topic. I wouldnt say im an expert on BPD but there are a few conclusions that I have come to that make sense to me.

First our pwBPD probably did love us. In the idolisation phase our potential to them is limitless. We are what they have been looking for and they dont see our flaws. After a while they start to see our cracks and we are not the person they believed we were. This to me seems to be the ultimate reason why a BPD relationship fails in the majority of cases. This is why they turn on us because in their eyes we have conned them. I myself was guilty of this to some degree. Our relationship was a figment of both of our imaginations.

As once removed has stated we are all at different stages in our healing. It has been over two years for me and I am happy with my life. Yes I still do think about my ex but I have a son with her so see her every week. I dont want her back and certainly dont miss her. For me understanding her behaviour has helped but I have always been some one who needs answers. I have a friend whos ex was possibly BPD and he wasnt interested all he needed was the knowledge that in his words she was "bat ___ crazy". So why my ex behaved why she did for me boils down to emotional imaturity, very low self esteem and survival. We are all different and peoples behaviour is a matter of perspective. To my ex I was probably lying and cheating as for her it was the norm. Not doing those things probably seems to her as incomprehensible as her behaviour was to me. Knowing this has helped me let go as it proves how completely incompatible we are.

people ask do they miss us/ regret breaking up. My answer is yes but only when things arent going so well for them.

what was our part in this? This is the most difficult question to answer especially in the early stages. It is also the most enlightening. I realise that there was a need almost desperation for me to be in a relationship. I overlooked red flags and let myself be changed slowly but surely into someone else. A shadow of my former self. Realising this has made me come to terms with my issues. Its not something to start on day one but further down the line when the initial pain has subsided. Its not for everyone but as I have had two BPD relationships it has let me understand why I keep making the same mistakes. Its not for everyone though.

[bunny4523]

Once removed: 
I’m not following you on the repeating themes… here is my take/understanding for my situation. 

I acknowledge there is always room for improvement.  I have misconceptions, I have blinders on sometimes, I’m moody and caught off guard and I can see when I could’ve handled a situation better.  It’s not a trigger for me and I don’t feel guilt/blame.  I like the idea of acknowledging and improving for next time.

1)   Examining your role to me is: How did I get here? What did I do that triggered my ex to feel a certain way? (not taking the blame for MAKING him feel that way but just understanding how BPD over react to normal relationship dynamics)  ei: I went to Toys R Us and shopped for an hour.    I can see how that would trigger a BPD now because he believed I didn’t want to be there with him.  I was abandoning him but this is “imagined” abandonment on his part, this is not reality.  I come back home and he goes off on me, ending the relationship. This is where I draw the line at HIS ACTIONS.  I will not take responsibility for how he feels or how he chooses to respond, although I do understand how this triggers him. 
To me this is no different than my teenage son yelling, “you never do anything for me.” I’m not going to buy into this.  I will validate my son by saying I can see you are really hurt and mad right now thinking I don’t care about you.  That hurts me because it is not true and I want you to feel cared for and loved. But then I do say what about yesterday I did this for you and I list the times I have been there for him.  You know what I get in response?  Accountability.  “You know what mom, your right you do a lot of nice things for me and I’m sorry I said that out of anger.  I’m stressed about school or my girlfriend. “  So then of course I say “what is going on with the girlfriend and we talk about what really is bothering him.

2)   We get off track in communications with our BPD partner because the nons are trying to discuss and resolve a misunderstanding that happened.  While pwBPD have an emotion and are making up facts in their head to back up that emotion.

3)   Our exes are unhealthy and it more difficult communicating with them AND we get to choose whether we want to modify our communication methods or not to keep this relationship going. 

4)   I don’t think it’s the ONLY thing we should do. 

“Fair enough, has anyone figured it out yet?”  I’m not sure. :/  The list you provided puts all the blame on the ex and no accountability on ourselves.  Although that’s not the message I got from the thread….

One more thing, I do understand learning techniques to better communicate with others; healthy or not, maybe just because they have strong personalities, teenagers.  I have adopted this and I find them effective daily at work, with strangers and even with family members.  The difference to me is I don’t want to deal with this in an intimate partner.   I want a partner that thinks more like I do and will validate my feelings too.  Where communication will equal enlightment and resolution.  A relationship where we will grow together.  For me to stay with my BPD partner would have stunted my emotional growth, I would not be able to be the best I can be. 

Thanks for your feedback, you got me thinking! 
Bunny

[once removed]

The difference to me is I don’t want to deal with this in an intimate partner.   I want a partner that thinks more like I do and will validate my feelings too.  Where communication will equal enlightment and resolution.  A relationship where we will grow together. 

 

[bunny4523]

Yay!   I'm growing into a big girl!

Thank you 

[VitaminC]

2)   We get off track in communications with our BPD partner because the nons are trying to discuss and resolve a misunderstanding that happened.  While pwBPD have an emotion and are making up facts in their head to back up that emotion.

That right there is the thing to keep in mind. My lack of understanding this has led to soo many wasted hours talking. While I am trying to resolve to the best of my ability - to try and reach agreement on a few simple facts, to corral a couple of the issues and try to get somewhere with those - all kinds of bizarre "facts" are being introduced and smudged around until I didn't even know what the hell we were talking about .

I have a way of leaping from one thing to the next in my thinking, maybe I failed sometimes to signal how I actually got from A to B to C and so on. I got to the point where I slowed everything down so much, signposted so much, that it was like writing a hellish, impossible to finish, academic paper with hundreds of citations and footnotes, all of which had to be checked for accuracy by a team of researchers who couldn't agree on which sources were reliable and would argue among themselves about it.

What I got for my trouble was in response: "... .language ... .so fragmented that it is difficult to orient ourselves: we are in a system of words where multiple paths of meaning branch from every sentence, not on the level of interpretation but of basic comprehension", Chris Power writing about Beckett in The Guardian a few weeks ago.

[C.Stein]

This topic has reached the post limit.  Thanks to all who participated and please feel free to continue discussion in a new thread.