She didnt like my face so she decided to throw a tantrum

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Haha. Yes. This is as crazy as it sounds. It was a Saturday and she was working while I spent the day cleaning the house, going to the gym, grocery shopping for us and picking up some other things that she needed. I did this because I wanted to help her out because I knew she was busy.

I was doing some work in the office when she got home. She walked in the door and I walked over to give her a hug and a kiss. She said I wasn't happy to see her. She DID NOT say I looked unhappy or she felt like I was unhappy. She said I WAS unhappy to see her. I said that's not true. I missed you today and I even said that several times. She said... .Your face looks so unhappy. You look like you don't even care I came home. I said... .I don't know what my face looks like since I cannot see it. Maybe that's true but that's not how I feel. I am happy to see you.

At this time I have my arms around her trying to show her love but she pushes away from me and goes on the computer. She is pretty upset I can tell.

I follow her and say... .I feel really unappreciated right now. I cleaned the house, went shopping for us and even went to several stores to get things you needed and I don't even get a thank you. I try to show you love and you get upset because you don't like the way my face looks. That's very rude and disrespectful.

Of course she blows up. I knew she would. She starts yelling and screaming and the whole time I didn't even raise my voice. She grabs her keys and threatens to leave for the night. She said... I cant do this crap anymore. You don't understand my feelings ever. You never care about me. You never love me.

She said... .I cant be with a guy that's not happy to see me. A guy that has a face like that when I come home. I wont be happy if you keep doing that and I will leave forever.

I said... OK. That's fine. I lived with 8 months of emotional, verbal and physical abuse with you. You want to leave then go. Im not happy at all. And its not just your face. Its the way you treat me. Just like right now. Your incredibly abusive and well if you want to go then go. Im done trying to make you happy. Nothing will make you happy.

She starts yelling... .You never try to make me happy. If you would actually try maybe I could be happy.

I say very calmly... Nope. Ive been trying and even obsessing on what it takes to make you happy. Ive done everything I can and all I get back from you is more and more abuse. Ive been so unhappy the past 8 months Im now seeing a therapist. And that's because I don't want this anymore. Im not happy in this relationship and Im frankly not happy with you. Im really tired of your abusive behavior and you trying to manipulate everything. Look at tonight. You throw a tantrum because of the way my face looks. Did you ever stop and think maybe Im tired from doing stuff all day and my face has nothing to do with you? I didn't see a smile on your face when you got home but I didn't blow up on you. This is my face. This is how I am. If you don't like it then your free to go. If you cant be happy with me then do what you need to do. Im not happy at all anymore and if your going to nitpick and start fights about my face then I will be much happier without that bullSh%#.

She just kept yelling about something and I stopped her and said... .Ok this is going nowhere. Your yelling and we just need to separate tonight. You go do your thing and I will do mine. I started to leave the house and she started yelling. SIT DOWN. SIT DOWN! I said no. Your being demanding and abusive. I don't respond to that. If you want to be calm and talk we can do that but your being abusive and Im going to leave if you keep doing that. She started yelling more and saying SIT DOWN RIGHT NOW and poking her finger at me. I said... .Ok you don't want to stop being abusive Im leaving. I walked out. She walked out and said OK I can be calm and talk.

We walked back in and she spent about 5 minutes talking about her feelings and at the end I said ok I understand. I started to tell her my thoughts and feelings on that but she got really upset and said... .All you want to do is tell me your feelings. You don't care about mine. I stopped and thought for a minute and I remembered I never validated her. I understood but I did not go through the steps and let her know that I understood.

I said... Your right. I did not validate your feelings and for that I am sorry. I missed an important step and you want to feel understood. She said yes. I told her how I understand how she could feel like I didn't want to see her because of the way I looked. I told her I understand because I have felt that way before too when she looked unhappy. I know that can be hurtful sometimes and it makes you feel like its your fault for their unhappiness and that makes you feel bad. I said I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I was just tired tonight and I probably just looked tired. I was very happy to see you but it probably didn't look that way because I was tired.

After that I asked her... How do you feel? Do you feel understood? She said yes and thank you. She said that's all she wanted.

I then told her... .I do wish you wouldn't make assumptions I wish you had asked me if something was wrong rather than assume I just didn't want to see you. If you look sad or tired I always ask you. I always try to figure out what is wrong. I wish you would do the same for me.

Again she blew up. She started saying "All you care about is telling me what you want". You never care about what I want. Your so selfish.

I said... Ok we just went through talking for about 15 minutes ALL about your feelings and you admitted that I understood. You know I understand but your refusing to listen to my feelings and even try to understand. There are 2 people in this relationship and your trying to make it all about you.

Then she said... .No its all about you. You never listen to me and never care about my feelings.

At this point I gave up trying to reason w BPD

[jrharvey]

Haha. Yes. This is as crazy as it sounds. It was a Saturday and she was working while I spent the day cleaning the house, going to the gym, grocery shopping for us and picking up some other things that she needed. I did this because I wanted to help her out because I knew she was busy.

I was doing some work in the office when she got home. She walked in the door and I walked over to give her a hug and a kiss. She said I wasn't happy to see her. She DID NOT say I looked unhappy or she felt like I was unhappy. She said I WAS unhappy to see her. I said that's not true. I missed you today and I even said that several times. She said... .Your face looks so unhappy. You look like you don't even care I came home. I said... .I don't know what my face looks like since I cannot see it. Maybe that's true but that's not how I feel. I am happy to see you.

At this time I have my arms around her trying to show her love but she pushes away from me and goes on the computer. She is pretty upset I can tell.

I follow her and say... .I feel really unappreciated right now. I cleaned the house, went shopping for us and even went to several stores to get things you needed and I don't even get a thank you. I try to show you love and you get upset because you don't like the way my face looks. That's very rude and disrespectful.

Of course she blows up. I knew she would. She starts yelling and screaming and the whole time I didn't even raise my voice. She grabs her keys and threatens to leave for the night. She said... I cant do this crap anymore. You don't understand my feelings ever. You never care about me. You never love me.

She said... .I cant be with a guy that's not happy to see me. A guy that has a face like that when I come home. I wont be happy if you keep doing that and I will leave forever.

I said... OK. That's fine. I lived with 8 months of emotional, verbal and physical abuse with you. You want to leave then go. Im not happy at all. And its not just your face. Its the way you treat me. Just like right now. Your incredibly abusive and well if you want to go then go. Im done trying to make you happy. Nothing will make you happy.

She starts yelling... .You never try to make me happy. If you would actually try maybe I could be happy.

I say very calmly... Nope. Ive been trying and even obsessing on what it takes to make you happy. Ive done everything I can and all I get back from you is more and more abuse. Ive been so unhappy the past 8 months Im now seeing a therapist. And that's because I don't want this anymore. Im not happy in this relationship and Im frankly not happy with you. Im really tired of your abusive behavior and you trying to manipulate everything. Look at tonight. You throw a tantrum because of the way my face looks. Did you ever stop and think maybe Im tired from doing stuff all day and my face has nothing to do with you? I didn't see a smile on your face when you got home but I didn't blow up on you. This is my face. This is how I am. If you don't like it then your free to go. If you cant be happy with me then do what you need to do. Im not happy at all anymore and if your going to nitpick and start fights about my face then I will be much happier without that bullSh%#.

She just kept yelling about something and I stopped her and said... .Ok this is going nowhere. Your yelling and we just need to separate tonight. You go do your thing and I will do mine. I started to leave the house and she started yelling. SIT DOWN. SIT DOWN! I said no. Your being demanding and abusive. I don't respond to that. If you want to be calm and talk we can do that but your being abusive and Im going to leave if you keep doing that. She started yelling more and saying SIT DOWN RIGHT NOW and poking her finger at me. I said... .Ok you don't want to stop being abusive Im leaving. I walked out. She walked out and said OK I can be calm and talk.

We walked back in and she spent about 5 minutes talking about her feelings and at the end I said ok I understand. I started to tell her my thoughts and feelings on that but she got really upset and said... .All you want to do is tell me your feelings. You don't care about mine. I stopped and thought for a minute and I remembered I never validated her. I understood but I did not go through the steps and let her know that I understood.

I said... Your right. I did not validate your feelings and for that I am sorry. I missed an important step and you want to feel understood. She said yes. I told her how I understand how she could feel like I didn't want to see her because of the way I looked. I told her I understand because I have felt that way before too when she looked unhappy. I know that can be hurtful sometimes and it makes you feel like its your fault for their unhappiness and that makes you feel bad. I said I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I was just tired tonight and I probably just looked tired. I was very happy to see you but it probably didn't look that way because I was tired.

After that I asked her... How do you feel? Do you feel understood? She said yes and thank you. She said that's all she wanted.

I then told her... .I do wish you wouldn't make assumptions I wish you had asked me if something was wrong rather than assume I just didn't want to see you. If you look sad or tired I always ask you. I always try to figure out what is wrong. I wish you would do the same for me.

Again she blew up. She started saying "All you care about is telling me what you want". You never care about what I want. Your so selfish.

I said... Ok we just went through talking for about 15 minutes ALL about your feelings and you admitted that I understood. You know I understand but your refusing to listen to my feelings and even try to understand. There are 2 people in this relationship and your trying to make it all about you.

Then she said... .No its all about you. You never listen to me and never care about my feelings.

At this point I gave up trying to reason w BPD

[formflier]

  She said I wasn't happy to see her. 

So... .what would have been a healthier response than what you did? 

What values and/or boundaries would you like to communicate in this response.

FF

[jrharvey]

So... .what would have been a healthier response than what you did? 

Validation would have definitely helped. I got butt hurt when she didn't appreciate all I did for her and just complained. I didn't care about her feelings and well that is a problem. She could tell I didn't care about her feelings. I thought it was a stupid thing to push me away for. She wanted to know that I was happy to see her but when I tried to show her that I was happy to see her she pushed me away which made me feel vulnerable and used and a little abused.

[jrharvey]

What values and/or boundaries would you like to communicate in this response.

What I would like to communicate is that instead of getting upset with me about what she "thinks" I am feeling how about just ask. Treat me the way that I treat you. If you think something is wrong just ask me. Also don't expect me to look super happy all the time. Its an impossible request and no human being on this planet can do it. I would feel fake and like I am trying to fake happiness just to please her. Im not going to do that anymore. I want her to understand and be ok with the fact that sometimes I will be stressed out, unhappy, tired or just not look so great and that's ok. Sometimes I am stressed out or unhappy about things that have nothing to do with her.

I tried explaining this to her but I don't think she heard any of it.

[formflier]

I tried explaining this to her but I don't think she heard any of it.

Good job on your observations!  I'm 99% sure she didn't hear any of it either.

Fact of life:  Many people don't "hear" voices, but they will "hear" actions  This can be especially true for pwBPD.  The only way to understand how your wife is on this... .is some trial and error.

So... .let's jump in the FF time machine.  She comes in door and "tells" you what you feel.

You stay friendly... perhaps a light touch on arm (no big hugs)... "Hey babe... .I'm a bit confused... are you asking about my feelings for you?"  This is gentle... .you are making a gentle point... .and giving her an out.  You are making it about your confusion... .you are NOT accusing her of inappropriate communication.

It will go one of two ways... .

1.  Like gas on a fire:  Your job is pure boundaries... .don't get burned.  Up to her to manage herself.

2.  She calms:  Now you become friendlier... .if she wants to know your feelings... .tell her how you missed her... . :)on't bring up incorrect communication again.

I suppose there could be a 3rd option.  Where she just kinda huffs and puffs but doesn't go nuclear.

"Hey... .there is some kind of miscommunication between us.  How about I go make some tea and let's talk in the dining room in 10 minutes."    You don't care about tea... .or the talk.  Your goal here is to give some space so both can calm.  

The boundary/value is that mind reading is OVER in the r/s.  She can bang into the boundary all she wants... .that is her choice.

Your job is to be steadfast.

FF

[formflier]

Hey... .just so you know.  I've taken a very... .very hard line against mind reading in my r/s.

For instance.  I just scheduled a "biblical conference table" to discuss this after she made untrue statements about how I felt about my childhood and that "I don't know what it's like to be poor"

The context doesn't matter (for me). 

She is welcome to ask about my feelings... and I have a choice to share or not.  She can talk about her feelings of being poor... .all she wants.  I will validate all day long... .she can't be wrong... they are her feelings.

I take this stance with everyone... .have even "pushed back" on the biblical marriage counselor when he started making statements about what is in my heart.  He got on board quickly... .so that wasn't an issue.

The key to boundaries like this is that they apply to everyone.

FF

[jrharvey]

I suppose there could be a 3rd option.  Where she just kinda huffs and puffs but doesn't go nuclear.

This is more typical of what she does. She will state what she thinks and huff and puff away. If I try to tell her how I really feel she denies it and gets quiet and ignores me for a while. She usually does this before a big event. She has done it before we were supposed to leave for a trip or had a date to go somewhere. If I try to talk to her so we can actually do that event then she blows up. If I leave her alone and assume the event is a no go she blows up saying I don't care about the event and its my fault we aren't going.

How can she "slam against the boundary"? I don't understand.

One thing I have struggled with is finding my own happiness and not letting her affect me. It seems impossible. My counselor has said I cant just NOT let it affect me. She says my reactions are normal and what any normal person would feel in such a frustrating situation. That makes it tough though.

Im starting to feel incredibly unhappy in this relationship. I use to live off of the good phases and just make it through the bad but my image of her is fading, fading and fading. Im feeling more and more detached and just not worth fighting for. That's why I said a lot of what I said last night. It was true. I am incredibly unhappy with her and the way she treats me. If she wants to nitpick about my face then its best we go our separate ways. If she cant be with a guy that looks unhappy sometimes then nice knowing ya. Have fun!

[formflier]

How can she "slam against the boundary"? I don't understand.

OK... .this is a picture... something in your mind to describe this.  Your job is to hold up the boundary that your thoughts are yours... .and hers and hers.  If she wants to discuss what you feel... .she asks... .you share.

Anyway... .your job is to be consistent with this boundary.  You do not get to decide how often she bangs into it and gets frustrated... .or happy.  You really don't care about her emotions about YOUR boundary.  That's her business.  She understands the boundary, she will test it... .she gets to decide how often she will test it (that's the "slam against the boundary" part.)

To be clear... .if you lower your boundary to "make her happy" or to "help"... .that is worse than not having a boundary at all.  Intermittent reinforcement is horrible for a pwBPD

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

The above lesson is critical to understand!  

I am incredibly unhappy with her and the way she treats me. If she wants to nitpick about my face then its best we go our separate ways. If she cant be with a guy that looks unhappy sometimes then nice knowing ya. Have fun!

Boy oh boy... .please don't base your happiness on how she treats you.  

If she wants to nitpick about your face... .why on earth would you "participate" in that... .or "listen"... .

You don't control her... .you control your ears.  Take them elsewhere when she "goes there".

I guarantee you that you will be happier when you stop listening to blather like that

Whether or not she is happier, is not really your concern.  You focus on your boundary.

Hope this helps... .

FF

[Waddams]

It's the Jekyll and Hyde behavior that sucks you into this kind of relationship. Intermittent reinforcement. Ask your counselor about them, read about it.

You're not married to her right?

[HopefulDad]

You're putting in a lot of work here.  You're putting up with a lot of... .BPD.  Ask yourself why are you willing to do these things?  And I swear to God if the answer is "she's the hottest girlfriend I've ever had "and/or "the sex is great", please find better answers because those two really suck (if you haven't learned that, yet).

[formflier]

You're putting in a lot of work here.  

Exactly... .having firm consistent boundaries will save a lot of work and energy from having to be expended.

She can expend all the work she wants to expend "banging" into your boundaries.

FF

[Waddams]

The other thing to be prepared for... .holding boundaries with some people leads to a break in the relationship. It's okay to let it break. They'll blame you and demonize you for being the worst evil on earth, all for holding healthy boundaries and not letting them use, manipulate, or abuse you. Don't respond, be boring, they'll flame out and move on to seek new sources of excitement.

[HopefulDad]

The other thing to be prepared for... .holding boundaries with some people leads to a break in the relationship. It's okay to let it break. They'll blame you and demonize you for being the worst evil on earth, all for holding healthy boundaries and not letting them use, manipulate, or abuse you. Don't respond, be boring, they'll flame out and move on to seek new sources of excitement.

This happened to me.  This is why it's so important to set and enforce boundaries for the sake of creating a healthy relationship environment for yourself and yourself only.  You hope your pwBPD can go along with it so you can have your cake and eat it, too, but sometimes they don't.  If your end goal is solely to keep the relationship alive and you're trying to use boundaries to make the relationship work for you, then your plan goes out the window when you get demonized for enforcing boundaries.  Then perhaps you start abandoning boundaries in fear of losing your pwBPD.

Learn how to set and enforce healthy boundaries.  If you lose your pwBPD because of that, grieve the loss and move on.  You more than likely will meet someone healthy who will respect those boundaries and have a much better relationship. 

[Waddams]

Learn how to set and enforce healthy boundaries.  If you lose your pwBPD because of that, grieve the loss and move on.  You more than likely will meet someone healthy who will respect those boundaries and have a much better relationship.

This.  It will affect more than your primary romantic/life partner relationship too.  I started seeing other people - family, friends, co-workers, etc. that I had relational boundary issues with too.  When I started doing better with boundaries, all those relationships changed.  Some for the better, and yet some others also ended. 

I looked at as cutting loose dead weight and freeing up space in my life for better things.  It's been a process, and it took time, and putting up with some aggravation because there were people that tried to break down those boundaries when I put them up in several phases of life.  It also took time to meet new people and fill up that newly cleared out space in my life with better things.

[gotbushels]

At this point I gave up trying to reason w BPD

Lol that was fast 

My pwBPD ex could dysregulate things like what food she ate and whether it was too quiet for her. On the bright side jrharvey, I can see that in your position, using a paper bag could've solved some of my caretaking hardships 

[LightnessOfBeing]

I then told her... .I do wish you wouldn't make assumptions I wish you had asked me if something was wrong rather than assume I just didn't want to see you. If you look sad or tired I always ask you. I always try to figure out what is wrong. I wish you would do the same for me.

How dare you express your own feelings and needs, or ask for reciprocity!

Again she blew up. She started saying "All you care about is telling me what you want". You never care about what I want. Your so selfish.

I said... Ok we just went through talking for about 15 minutes ALL about your feelings and you admitted that I understood. You know I understand but your refusing to listen to my feelings and even try to understand. There are 2 people in this relationship and your trying to make it all about you.

Then she said... .No its all about you. You never listen to me and never care about my feelings.

Yeah, never. Except, ya know, about 2 seconds ago when he spent 15 minutes all about you and your feelings.! Agh! The always/never statements are so frustrating in any context, but when it's like this - when you get accused of "never" doing something for them that you literally just did seconds before, it's beyond frustrating. It's like they can't perceive gradation - if you validate them a thousand times a week, the one time you 'fail' to, they paint you as never doing it. I think of lizards/other cold-blooded animals by way of analogy - they need the sun to regulate body temperature - so the instant the sun isn't shining on them, their body temp drops and they freak out (I'm playing fast and loose with biology here, but the basic point is there.) The moment the attention is turned away from them to you, it seems to feel catastrophic to them, so they lash out.

One of the most frustrating aspects of my relationship with my SO wBPD is the kind of deep self-absorption you encountered in the exchange above. If we spend 99.99% of any given conversation (or day, or month, or year) focused exclusively on him - his feelings, his pain, validating him, mollifying him, placating, comforting, etc etc etc - if I dare try to ever inject even 1% of me, my thoughts, feelings, needs, etc into discussion, I'm instantly declared a monster. It's bizarre how they can't see it - we can literally spend nearly all the time focused exclusively on them, all attention, comfort and validation focused on them, and the moment you turn that focus away from them for even one minute, you're accused of being selfish/not caring about them.

That's the amazing part of this disorder to me, one of the aspects of it that I find just jaw-dropping, the sheer intransigence to seeing reality - they seem to adamantly refuse to see what just happened, even if you spell it out clearly and objectively for them as you did, pointing out that the conversation had been all about her for 15 minutes, and you were just wanting some parity (a valid desire!). It's like trying to scream at a deaf person to make yourself heard- no matter how hard you try, it won't get through. Trying to reason with BPD is the fastest road to insanity if you stay in a r/s with a pwBPD. As you've found, our reason ray is powerless against their shielding ;-)

This sentence below leapt out at me, because I've said it myself, in very similar circumstance, trying to get my SO to see me, to see that there's, ya know, another human being besides them, and maybe that person deserves a shred, even a crumb, of reciprocity:

"There are 2 people in this relationship"

Usually that's what a relationship is. But so many of Nons I've talked to all note that they've ended up feeling very alone in their relationship - when an ostensible "partner" can provide none of the things most of us expect of adult intersubjectivity, it's not really 2 people in the relationship -- it's an emotional caretaker and the emotional invalid they have to modify their own behavior and selves, and set aside their own needs, in order to accommodate:

"Borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

The way I'm coming to see it, trying to get an untreated pwBPD to be interested in your feelings and needs is a bit like trying to get an astronaut in orbit to notice an ant on earth. Certain paradigms suggest that, to varying degrees, the romantic partners of pwBPD function mostly as self-objects to them - they're just looking for an external source to continually supply them with identity and self-esteem. And we don't care about objects' 'feelings'. It would never occur to me to ask my toothpaste how it feels, or try to support it and show I care - it's an object to me, something I use. I'm not trying to be mean to my toothpaste, there's no malice of intent, it's just a one-sided relationship. Sucks when we're the toothpaste though 

Sorry you're going through this! I hope the boards are some comfort 

[gotbushels]

And I swear to God if the answer is "she's the hottest girlfriend I've ever had "and/or "the sex is great", please find better answers because those two really suck (if you haven't learned that, yet).

lmao

"Borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

This is one of the most important things I read on this site.

[MaybeSo]

She didnt like my face so she decided to throw a tantrum

Haha. Yes. This is as crazy as it sounds.

Actually, no, it doesn't sound crazy. And her response wasn't "decided", it was triggered.   The brain research coming out highlights that social animals... .HUMANS... .have parts of brain that are constantly scanning the environment for potential threat, and b/c we are so reliant on connection and membership w/ the tribe for survival... .facial cues in important attachment figures are extremely impacting on those parts of the brain.  A curled lip, a rolled eye, the slightest look of disdain, ... all of these things can signal as much threat to the amygdala as any "real" danger and the body responds instantly to Fight Flight Freeze much the same as if there was physical threat to survival. In Stan Tatkin's Psychobiological Approach to Couples therapy (UCLA) trainings for couples therapists,  a huge part of the focus in on nothing more than examining the couples body language and their reactions and responses to each other based on body language and facial cues, and teaching couples how to be aware of these important cures. This is all with non BPD populations, regular sub-clinical couples.  With BPD populations they have done studies that show they are more likely than nons to read flat, neutral faces as hostile and agressive.  As children, in dependency settings, if our parents don't look happy to see us, it signals survival threat.   Many if not most people can feel deeply threatened depending on facial cues of an important attachment object.  Obviously, it is less of an issues with people whom we do not view as important attachment objects.