Typical to the Very End.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Verbena, I'm sorry that he is choosing poorly and creating more work for you.

I've been thinking that there are a lot of similarities in how we deal with pwBPD and interacting with young children -- maintaining consistency is really important, doing what we say and not changing because they are creating chaos. (brings the focus back onto them) Any change can signal an open door to them. Don't open the door.

[empath]

Verbena, I'm sorry that he is choosing poorly and creating more work for you.

I've been thinking that there are a lot of similarities in how we deal with pwBPD and interacting with young children -- maintaining consistency is really important, doing what we say and not changing because they are creating chaos. (brings the focus back onto them) Any change can signal an open door to them. Don't open the door.

[formflier]

Potential draft letter (hope this helps)

Mr Grumpy pants.

I am writing on behalf of my client, "Mrs Glad you are the hell outta there".  Thank you for removing all of your belongs from Mrs Verbena's property on time in accordance with the (use proper name for instructions)... .perhaps draft order.

It has come to my attention that perhaps there are items located in "Mrs Verbena's" residence that you would be interested in obtaining.  If you would provide me a list of the items that you are interested in, I would be happy to pass it on to Mrs Verbena for her consideration.

Given your compliance with the (use proper name of order), I would think it likely that an mutually agreeable compromise can be reached.

Sincerely,

Fancy Pants lawyer.


Points being made here... .but not pounded on. 

The property is Verbenas, not his.  It is inferred the items are hers and she has control, but offers compromise.

And it butters him up some.

Hope this helps.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, I got a chuckle out of your proposed letter.  I considered briefly this morning asking my lawyer to draft a letter to him.  I know that it would be a waste of time, though.  He would not respond to it or communicate with any lawyer.  Meanwhile, I would be billed for it. 

What I did instead is to text him back this morning at 9:32 that returning here was not an option.  I told him that  if he sends movers Saturday morning  I would direct them to pick up the items in the garage, shop, and attic that he did not remove.  I was careful not to say "your stuff." 

No response. 

Meanwhile, I got a phone call from my daughter this afternoon.  Looks like he's about to wear out his welcome over there, and this is only day three.  She vented, I said "I'm sorry to hear that"  a lot,  and I told her I hoped they would be able to work things out themselves.  I also told her that the issue of all the items left at the house was something to be worked out by her dad and me. 

I'm really doubting that may happen, though.  He has lost control of the situation, doesn't have me to project his nastiness on anymore, and is far too stubborn to follow any idea I have that allows him to have his crap.  So I guess we'll see.  Someone told me (maybe one of the police officers?) that thirty days after the decree all his mess would be considered abandoned property and I could do whatever I want with it. 

I need it gone way sooner than that.  Until I have every trace of him out of here, I cannot have peace. 
I'm not a drinker, but I found some really old whiskey in the pantry today and mixed a little with my iced tea.  It helped some.  I've been very jumpy all day. 

[KateCat]

Verbena, I am so impressed with the strength that is carrying you through this ordeal.

Who would ever think that after 35 years you would have to call the po-po on paw-paw? Well, I would believe it, because as a member of the 35-year club myself I am seeing equally dramatic things from friends making the difficult move to split from spouses of 35 years. In my crowd, most of us are genuine senior citizens at this mark, because we tended to marry at roughly age 30.

It's tough on both partners. The one who wouldn't/couldn't listen, for decades, and also the one who stuck it out until the kids were really, really adults. Or until the aged parents had passed away. Or until a lifetime of working and saving had freed them financially.

You have been so brave and made such progress in the past twelve months. It is sad that your soon-to-be-ex has made so little adjustment during the same period.

Here's hoping you don't have to keep calling the po-po and that paw-paw doesn't end up in the pokey. I know you will be strong even if these things happen. But it sure would be nice if they didn't.

[formflier]

Verbena,

Glad you got a chuckle.

Couple things I'm going to press you on.

If we are talking about this Saturday, then I think you should hold on communication with lawyer and him.  See if movers show up.  

If movers show up, send them away with stuff and breath a sigh of relief.  If not, there is more thinking to be done.

Either way, if movers show up... .or not.  I think your lawyer needs to send a letter

Nothing big, yes it will cost you some, and if you send her draft and your thoughts on why... .it's shouldn't take too long.

Here is why.  When things go outside the agreement, it is critical for potential future legal challenges that you memorialize things and efforts at communication in writing.

I think this is even more critical if movers don't show.  

Either way the letter should request a response in writing.  We know he won't, that is not the point.  The point is to prepare yourself for a future challenge to show that you have been reasonable... .and then some.  That you made every effort to stay out a courtroom and that the reason you are in a courtroom is your hubby's refusal to cooperate and/or communicate.

Yep... .that's playing defense, but I think it is critical.  Please consider this for several days... and obviously, we'll have more facts in hand after Saturday.

I would also challenge you to start really thinking through boundaries with your kids about talking about their father with you.  I'm less interested in exactly what boundary you set, than I am about you thinking it through and then be consistent.

There are tons of ways to look at it.  

Great job on not "admitting" or labeling things as his.  In truth... .they are not.

I'm bouncing around a bit here.  

"Honey... that's something you should talk directly to your Father about... ."  comes to mind as a potential thing to say to your family when they want to vent.  

Hang tough?

FF

[Verbena]

He has hired an attorney.

With four days before the decree could actually be final, he has hired an attorney.

My attorney tells me that his attorney has told him he cannot come here and get his stuff.  He is actually paying someone to tell him this.  Not sure what he is hoping to accomplish by any of this.  I guess it's just a show of force and to run up my bill.

[formflier]

At this point, ask your attorney if you should keep talking directly to him.  Texting... .anything.  My guess is no.

Let the attorney's work this out. 

My advice is to let your attorney show some flexibility to the other attorney in terms of when he can come and get additional things from the house.

Push to get to final decree.

Any demands that the other attorney has made?

FF

[HopefulDad]

He has hired an attorney.

With four days before the decree could actually be final, he has hired an attorney.

My attorney tells me that his attorney has told him he cannot come here and get his stuff.  He is actually paying someone to tell him this.  Not sure what he is hoping to accomplish by any of this.  I guess it's just a show of force and to run up my bill.

Despite the extra PITA his hiring an attorney creates, ultimately this is a good thing.  With his having legal representation, it makes it more difficult for him in the future to contest anything.

[flourdust]

Ugh.

I'm guessing you can expect to receive demand letters. They may be written in rather inflammatory language. ("Your client has maliciously and inappropriately... ."

Don't worry about that. Your attorney can write responses. The responses can be brief and factual.

[Cat Familiar]

What's so irritating about this is that he's the one who has violated the written agreement, yet you keep getting sucked in to the drama and having to pay for attorney time. Been there, done that. Par for the course with a pwBPD or other PD. At some point it will be over. They just want to drag it out as long as possible. 

[Verbena]

My attorney told me to  have no contact with him by phone.  I had texted him over 24 hours ago telling he could have movers come to the house Saturday.   I also told him that I would direct movers to take furniture that we had discussed. He ignored that text and then today texted me that I could contact him through his attorney.  That's how I found out he got one.  

I have been trying for months to get him to discuss with me about the furniture, etc.  He always ignored me.  

This is about retribution.  He has already hauled out of the house a giant safe and thousands of dollars worth of guns--tons of them.  He has piled in the shop hundreds of dollars worth of tools, table saws, expensive tool chests... .

He asked me to be able to come back himself after the divorce and go through the attic, storage room, and garage because he hadn't "even gone through those yet."  

My attorney says to absolutely not allow him back over here. Legally he can't be and emotionally--I can't do it.   I'm waiting for a call from her.  Can't eat, can't focus, grandbaby is here.  

My guess is I will indeed get a demand letter.  NOthing would please him more than to strip this house of anything he thinks I want.  He knows how much it all means to me and I know how he could never stand it when anyone would compliment me on it.  

I think the icing on the cake for him was when I called the police.  Then my daughter went off on him about his behavior.  I am really struggling here.  

[Verbena]

Cat, yes he is the one who violated the written agreement. He knows that he was wrong trying to say that the closing dates were incorrect and he knows that he was wrong to not get his crap out of here. 

HE CANNOT BE WRONG.  Never in 34 years has he apologized to me.  Never in 34 years has he been wrong.  Never in 34 years has he accepted responsibility for his behavior.  This is at the core of his problem. 

So now, it's payback time.  He is using the money I GAVE HIM for this house (presumably so he could buy one himself) to pay for lawyers to drive up my legal bills and drag this out. 

[Cat Familiar]

Verbena, you will be done with him soon, as messy as this final chapter is turning out to be. With the agreement he's signed, there's not a lot more that he can actually do, other than annoy you and cost you some more legal time. Yes, he wants more stuff, but he had plenty of time to deal with that and he didn't. There will be some back and forth negotiation, and some added expense, but this can't go on long IMO. Most attorneys have some integrity within their community. They don't want to sully their reputation among their peers with vexatious litigation, as it is an abuse of the judicial process and may result in sanctions. That said, the attorney that represented my ex-husband had a reputation as a pitbull, but she ended up being reasonable in the long run.

[formflier]

So now, it's payback time.  He is using the money I GAVE HIM for this house (presumably so he could buy one himself) to pay for lawyers to drive up my legal bills and drag this out. 
[/quote

   

Please be kind to yourself.  Have you had the locks changed?

Please take deep breath and realize this is not about you... .please focus and strain to NOT personalize this.

This is about winning the "fight" to get to final decree.

Please don't spend time figuring out what he thinks or why he does things.  It won't be figured out.

Hang in there.

FF

[HopefulOne44]

... .So, with this in mind, I had an idea for you, which you might want to run past your attorney if you decide to do it. Round up a number of people to help you move all his crap to a storage unit. Make it into a party. A goodbye party. A freedom party. Pay for one month at the storage facility and then leave the key for him at the office. If he lets it go into foreclosure, then that's his problem. You immediately get the stuff out of your life and there's no waiting or planning for movers. You're out money for the month's rent, but you're done, done, done with him.

This seems like a better and better idea as things are progressing... .

Getting a clan of supporters to come help you move his cr$p, would minimize time, effort and expense.  One month storage seems like a small price to pay for immediate removal of all his stuff.  I would video everything including the storage unit with things inside, the keys, the paperwork, etc... .And of course run the idea by your attorney to be sure it is ok to do this at this point and to cover all bases.  

If his belongings are the only reason for all this drama, the texts, the police, your stbx's attorney being hired, etc... .then again - one month at a storage unit is a very small price to pay to end tbis once and for all.

I'm sure friends who care would be thrilled to band together to get the stuff out asap.  Many hands make light work as they say!

May this all be resolved quickly and peacefully! ((Hugs))

HO44

[formflier]

Please do not move any property off site unless your attorney blesses that action.  Right now it is clear who has control and responsibility for the property.

This may feel like an emotionally good move to "be out from under his stuff", but my guess is an attorney would advise against it.

Plus if you put in in storage and he refuses it, will you really stop paying and then YOU (verbena) has a court case against you and potentially a judgement.  Unless you sell it or move it back... or keep paying.

FF

[formflier]

Verbena,

Last post got me to thinking about property and insurance and responsibility.

When do you get to switch the homeowners insurance into just your name?  

When does the house title switch over to just you?

My concern is (low probability of happening).  If some of his stuff gets broken that he has moved off the marital property, what insurance gets filed against.

Again... .low probability but definitely a detail to put on the checklist.

FF

[GaGrl]

What's the situation with the Quit Claim? Do you have it in hand? Or can STBX use it as leverage here at the last hours?

[Verbena]

It's my understanding that a quit claim or something like that will be signed along with the decree. 

My attorney called me today.  According to H's attorney, H is concerned about when his name can be off deed.  He says it is hurting his credit and ability to buy a home.  I don't even know if I believe this.

Also, H's attorney intends to fight for the right for husband to come back here.  As it stands now, he legally can't.  My attorney thinks they can get a judge to allow it.  This could take time and delay everything. 

I give up.  I am going to let him come back because if I don't, it will be just that much longer that he is living with my daughter and her family and telling them he can't buy a house until everything is final.  The tension over there is high and my grandbaby is there. 

[formflier]

 
I can see why this is upsetting.     


Please don't give up.  Call his bluff.

Their living situation is not your responsibility.

Boundaries!


   


FF

[GaGrl]

Then if you anticipate, via your attorney's advice, that the judge will allow him access, you need to figure out how best to control that situation - else it turn into his taking far more than you want or expect him to take.

Options? Brainstorm here... .

Move his items to garage; he has access to garage only.

Make sure several friends are in the house with you on the day he is designated to remove final items... .Make it as uncomfortable as possible for him to be there or to stay for a long period of time.

Have attorney's agree on number of hours access.

When he leaves with final items, require that he acknowledged in writing that removal is finished.

Etc etc.

Any other thoughts.

You are close to the finish.

[formflier]

You are close to finish!  You have hired an attorney, let them do their job. 

Focus on caring for your emotions. 

How are you sleeping?

FF

[Verbena]

He is fighting for the right not just to come and pick up his stuff, but to "go through" it.  There is a massive amount of stuff in the shop all lined up and stacked up neatly down the center.  Movers can just grab and go there, no need for me break my back or pay people to move to garage. 

I don't know yet how this will play out.  No, I am not sleeping and can barely eat.  Barely care for grandson.  My son-in-law asked me to call him when baby goes down for nap.  My guess is he wants me to do whatever is necessary to give my husband what he wants so they can have some peace over there. 

This is my decision.  I'm crying out to God for some peace and I know I'll have it eventually.  Right now I feel traumatized and have a lot of hate in my heart toward my husband for what he has done to me--not just lately but for years. 

[formflier]

Please call your dr about sleeping and eating.

Do you have a friend that can come stay with you?

FF

[HopefulDad]

I give up.  I am going to let him come back because if I don't, it will be just that much longer that he is living with my daughter and her family and telling them he can't buy a house until everything is final.  The tension over there is high and my grandbaby is there.

To the bolded: Aw, hell naw!

Your daughter and her family made a choice in letting him in.  Let them handle the consequences of their decision.

[GaGrl]

That he wants to come over and go through stuff is why your attorney needs to work with his to set a limit on the time he has to be on the property, and specific locations he can access - say, shop and garage, not the house or attic.

And he must be monitored to ensure he leaves on time.

I can see how a judge might say that, after that many years of marriage and co-mingling of property, he could return one more time for X hours to complete vacating. So how many hours? 6-8? Give your attorney your limits, but listen to him her.

 

[Verbena]

Update: 

Husband and son-in-law are coming to the house today to haul away stuff.  Daughter and I will be out of town shopping. 

Lots has happened leading up to this.  I will post more tonight. 

[formflier]

Any movers?  I am imagining a lot of stuff for 2 people.

 

Hang tough.

FF

[Verbena]

No movers.  Just H and SIL.  At least 104 degrees here.  SIL called me mid-morning to say that the storage unit that he believed items were being taken to HAS NOT HAD THE CONCRETE IN FRONT OF IT POURED YET.

Yes, you heard me right. 

So much of his junk is still in my garage and in my shop.  Nothing was actually moved out of the shop today.    Movers are supposedly coming WEdnesday to pick the rest up, and H needs to stand in the street while this happens according to SIL.

I just want off this crazy train. 

[Verbena]

UPdate:  

I got ahead of myself on the post I made last night, so I'll back up a little.

On Thursday, I spent a lot of time worrying what husband was up to with getting a lawyer four days before the divorce could be final,  talking to my attorney (who had talked to H's new attorney), and trying to figure out what  H was alleging.  It was very confusing to both of us.

My attorney was hired to do the divorce.  She put into the temporary orders that I was responsible for getting the loan, which I did, and paying my husband.  Which I did.  She did not have copies of all the loan documents at that time.  She asked that I bring them to her when I could.  

I could not make myself get out of the house on Thursday to take the loan papers to her for her to review.  I just couldn't.  I felt almost paralyzed.  I had my grandson here, I was fielding phone calls, had friends calling to check on me, and was just a big mess.

Thursday night after grandson was gone and I was alone here in the house, I fell apart.  I alternated between screaming, crying, punching pillows, and acting like a crazy person.  I guess I had an emotional breakdown of some sort.  

Friday morning, my son-in-law called me and asked that I call him when grandson went down for his nap.  I did.  SIL expressed real concern to me that H was not going to be able to move forward with purchasing a home because of the way I had done my loan.  H convinced him that HUSBAND'S NAME was on the note, that I needed to move forward quickly with paperwork to re-finance the house and removed H's name from the note.  I'm leaving out a bunch of other stuff SIL told me H had told him because I was confused, in a state of shock, sleep-drived, and completely confused.

I obviously knew that I was the one who took out the loan, that I was the one who signed the note, and that huband did not sign the note.  I knew this.  Yet, I began to believe I had done something wrong. I called my lawyer (who still hadn't gotten the loan papers from me because I couldn't make myself get dressed and go downtown to give them to her), my loan officer, and the owner of the title company that did the closing.

Finally it hit me that I had the proof of who signed the note in my paperwork.  I got the baby and myself ready and headed downtown with the paperwork.  I couldn't handle a 20-month old and meet with lawyer at the same time, so I met my daughter halfway and passed my grandson off to her.  She was stressed and on her way to meet with a client but cancelled her plans to help me out.

I had a friend on the phone who was praying out loud for me as I made my way downtown. I was praying that I was not going to owe my lawyer even more money that I had obviously incurred the day before for the mess caused by H.  When I stepped into the elevator, a woman I didn't know looked at me and asked if I had allergies.  I said no.  The door opened to the third floor and as I got off she said, "You're going to be okay!"

I met with my lawyer.  She took my loan paperwork and said it was going to be okay, to let her straighten it out.  I then told her about my son-in-law's idea to bring husband over on Saturday and supervise him getting his stuff.  I told her I understood that she would have to do some kind of written agreement, that it needed to happen quickly, and that I was willing to do it to make this happen and end this.  I also told her, however, that I was tapped out financially on this divorce.  Because I am. 

She told me that if I trusted my son-in-law, to go for it.  It was my house and my decision to allow it.  If H refused to leave with son-in-law when SIL said they were done, I was to call the police.  I asked, "What about his attorney?  :)on't we have to have a written agreement now that he has an attorney?"  

She said, "HIs attorney is an ass. I'll take care of it."  

So, SIL and H came over yesterday and worked all day in this incredible heat.  I don't actually believe that movers will even show up on Wednesday to remove all that's left which is a ton.  Husband is insisting to SIL that he must stand in the street while this happens.  

I am going to let him stand in the street.  I have someone who will be here to supervise movers and to see that he stays in the street.  I won't be here to see him standing in the street making a fool of himself but thinking he got the last word.  Let him think it.  He is losing everything and doesn't even know it.  

 I cannot take this anymore.  I want it to end, I want his stuff gone, and I want my life back.