The discussion about email passwords

[formflier]

FF's written submission

(ff) has a fundamental (perhaps) disagreement about the use of Gen 2. Gen 2 was the status of

things before sin came into the world (in the next chapter). I do think that Gen 2 is a great goal to

chase after in our quest to have a better marriage, but I also don’t think it is attainable. That doesn’t

mean we shouldn't try. Much like our goal is to try to grow to be like Christ, but we all know that “this

side of heaven” it is not going to happen.


(FF wife) is welcome to ask anytime and we can look at things in my email. She gets access and there will be no issues with “things happening unexpectedly” or her not understanding how emails got sent when they were not intended to be sent.



There is nothing to hide but there is information to protect. Even though I have fundamental

disagreement on Genesis 2 I think that “hiding” information would go against “one flesh”. I do not

think putting safeguards in place to “protect” information goes against the spirit of Genesis 2.

End of FF's submission


FF wife's submission

Not sure what you are saying here but let’s be honest... .you have a track record of getting emotionally involved with other women... .I saw it possibly starting again and invited her and her hubby over for dinner... .Should not have done that from your email account... .should not have done that period... .Gods job not mine... .I should have once again brought it to your attention and if you chose to ignore me as before then I should have trusted GOd to handle it. At this point I have no interest in checking up on you... .God will work with you on what you are doing wrong, just as he does for me. The only reason I want you to unlock your computer and phone is because that is the way it should be. If you choose to keep it locked because I ‘can’t be trusted’ that is on you. I have no desire to look in your files or emails. If you don’t trust me it is because you are not completely honest about our past.

[formflier]

A bit of context.

She wants my password.  Biblical Counselor is leaning on my to give it to her.  I've said no.  I'm not giving her my password.  If I get kicked out of counseling... .so be it.  (note... this is my attitude revealed to you guys, I am portraying a bit softer attitude to MC and my wife.)  Just so you guys know.  This is a "go to the mat issue".  I have nothing to hide, but much to protect.


Anyway... .she claims (again... .yawn... .) that I have had many emotional affairs and that I am not "honest".

The context of the "emailing from my account" is when I left a laptop unattended and unlocked she apparently snooped (over a year ago) and found communication that she didn't like with a work colleague.  This colleague was female and her husband was coordinating a job for me at his company.  My wife emails (from my account) the lady with weird remarks  about how much "we have been keeping up with each other" and then pushed for a really close r/s with them.  It freaked the other couple out, the r/s fizzled and the job went kaput.

Ahh... and she clarifies that the reason I don't trust her is because "I" have not been honest about our past.

I think she also was quite coy with her words... .she now has no "intention" of checking up on me.  Much different that what she has verbally said that she WILL NOT  do this.  So, in her writing, she has left herself a lot of wiggle room to change her "intentions" in the future.

FF

[formflier]

 
 
So, her comment about "it's the way it should be" is obviously her opinion, it is an opinion that she and the MC share.  MC DID call her out sternly for using my email and clarified unequivocally with her that she was wrong to do what she did.  He said that his wife and he have shared passwords but they have never actually used them to get in the others account. 

So... .MC is not totally against me, but I still don't think he grasps (because he hasn't seen full cycle) how she can change in a blink and then act like it never happened (that she never made commitment to stay out or not abuse my email).

[Waddams]

There's a balance between privacy and secrecy.  JMHO - but I won't give my passwords to a partner.  I also don't want their passwords.  I want a certain amount of autonomy for both me and my partner - I want us to be two healthy individuals and to reinforce that, you maintain boundaries of individuality.

Yes, it leaves room for privacy to turn into secrecy that is detrimental to the relationship.  However, the fact is that if a partner is going to cheat or otherwise try to do something underhanded, they're gonna find a way to do it and try to hide no matter what.  Therefore, I choose to not worry about passwords and not worry about having oversight of my partner.  You have to trust them.  If they break that trust, you'll figure it out one way or another.

She wants my password.  Biblical Counselor is leaning on my to give it to her.  I've said no.  I'm not giving her my password.  If I get kicked out of counseling... .so be it.  (note... this is my attitude revealed to you guys, I am portraying a bit softer attitude to MC and my wife.)  Just so you guys know.  This is a "go to the mat issue".  I have nothing to hide, but much to protect.

If it's a "go the mat issue", why try to portray it softer?  Sometimes we think we are being gentle, loving and still portraying a strong boundary when reality is that we are perceived as weak and wishy washy.  It invites them to push harder.  They don't take the boundary seriously and push us on it even harder.  What's wrong with being harder about it?  Just say no and you'll go to the mats for it.  Don't explain or justify yourself when they try to push you on it. 

I do think once the accept "no" and respect your boundary, at that point it's okay to perhaps give an explanation, but only once they respect your boundary and respect you as an individual first.

[formflier]

Ahh... .I see... .good questions.  She has not had my password in couple years.

The only reason, IMO, that she has brought this up, is that the MC asked her for a list of things I could do that would "build her trust of me".  She put this on the list. 

I said no. 

I see the point you are making about "going to the mat" and letting her know that.  I try to go with "less is more"

No speaks volumes.  As long as I am consistent that I don't "flip", I think that is sufficient.  If I get in habit of "caving in", ... .that would be bad.

I also DO NOT threaten others.  If I need to take action... .I take action.  So, I don't (as a matter of my values) say "No, I'm not giving you a password and I'm willing to divorce over this" To me, I think that would be like waving a red cape at a bull and inviting her to charge.

I regularly hand her my laptop and ask her to read something or if she is not there will forward her an email.  She has asked about issues and I usually show her.  Although many times I will schedule time to do it.  I'm not at her beck and call.

Thoughts?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FF,

I'm with you all the way: no reason to give out your passwords.  This is not 1984 and you don't need Big Brother monitoring your every move.  Like many abusers, my BPDxW tried to isolate me from friends and family, but she didn't succeed because I could still communicate with the outside world via email and telephone.  I refused to give out my passwords and lose those lifelines, which helped me to keep perspective on how bad my situation was living with an abusive alcoholic suffering from BPD.  I have had subsequent serious relationships and the issue doesn't even come up among mature adults.  You're not a child and your BPDw shouldn't treat you like one, in my view.

LuckyJim

[ForeverDad]

There's a balance between privacy and secrecy.

Yes, it leaves room for privacy to turn into secrecy that is detrimental to the relationship.  However, the fact is that if a partner is going to cheat or otherwise try to do something underhanded, they're gonna find a way to do it and try to hide no matter what... .  You have to trust them.  If they break that trust, you'll figure it out one way or another.

She wants my password.  Biblical Counselor is leaning on my to give it to her.  I've said no.  I'm not giving her my password.

The BC can give an opinion, hopefully with reasonable Scriptural basis, but you'll find in the Scriptures some clear principles but the rest general principles.  That means we all use our informed best judgment.  In your case, you have the option to state that once she impersonated you, you lost a job or project and you can't risk that to happen ever again.

I recall writing to myself in my last year or two of marriage about my then-spouse's rants, rages, demands, bad-mouthing others, etc.  Every so often she'd recycle and so before shared my email account I'd delete all my documentation.  So I have some blanks in my history from them.

I recall my ex not wanting to shower together near the end.  She wanted her privacy, oh, and I was usually in the doghouse too.  Anyway, I think it's best for you to keep to your boundaries.  You have your reasons.  After all, if an email account makes or breaks a relationship, there's deeper issues than that.

[formflier]

 After all, if an email account makes or breaks a relationship, there's deeper issues than that.

Yep... .I agree.  And this is why I am still on the "deciding" board.  My heart says I want to improve our r/s (and I really do) but I will NOT go against my values or violate my boundaries to improve or "save" it.  Plus, now that I am a "high post count guy" there is wisdom about me not mixing messages between deciding and improving.  Especially when there is a chance that I will "have to go to the mat".  I'm not pushing to go there, but I won't hesitate either. 

Yes I would be sad if it doesn't work out, but my self worth WILL be intact.

Biblical context.   And yes... .MC was clear that this was his opinion and interpretation.

below is part of email from biblical MC

I still believe that the spirit of Gen 2 in a post fallen world is that FF wife and FF have all passwords to all biological family’s accounts who live in your household. And FF wife is responsible for how she uses any of the information. FF should believe the best about FF wife as a new start. Those are my thoughts.
 
Please confirm that you have read and understood. If I have missed something let me know.

This was in response to me sharing my opinion that Gen 2 doesn't apply because it was before the apple (the fall) and sin came in to the world.

I get it there is theological nuance there and opinion.

A principle that I am trying to live my life by is that it is ok to have different opinions and still be friends, married... .whatever.  In fact, I tend to seek out those that have different opinions. 

So, I'm totally fine with MC and my wife believing I should give up the password, we can agree to disagree.  I'll process my feelings on the issue and they can process theirs.

Still trying to clarify how to say this, but I think the measure of a mature and healthy relationship is not about what you agree on or how much you agree on, but what happens when you disagree or don't get what you want.


FF

[formflier]

The way I practically handle this now.

I have 8 kids, two are over 18.

I have access and regularly check and review emails and internet history for kids that are under 18.

I DO NOT check up on or monitor D19 or S20, even when they are living in my house.  D19 is home for summer taking classes at local community college.  Back to regular college in the fall.

Honestly, it wouldn't even cross my mind.

I do talk with them about what they are doing and from time to time I clearly express an unsolicited opinion about what they should do.  I normally accompany that with "It's important to me that you know what I think is best for your life and that you use that when YOU make the decision about the direction your go"

From my raising, my Dad clearly expressed his views, as did his Father.  They were interested in what I actually did and why, but never... .and I mean never tried to guilt me about not following their advice.

The did expect me to make a clear decision and be able to give a clear account of why I made it that way.  Interestingly enough, that set up me to be a JADE superstar.  Being able to explain your thinking is great for a healthy r/s, but is (IMO) poison for a BPD r/s.

In other words, my Dad was really concerned about "how" I made decisions (the process) vice the actual decision.


FF

[HopefulDad]

Bestowing trust on someone who has violated that trust by emailing that colleague of yours?  What ever happened to 'trust needs to be earned', especially once violated?  Bestowing trust on someone who shows paranoid tendencies?  Again, your BMC means well, but he's in over his head with mental illness.

Just continue to say no to sharing your password(s).  Let the chips fall where they may.

ETA: Even if there was no trust violation, I do think it's healthy to have individual privacy and that alone is reason not to share a password.  I didn't intend to come across as the sharing being conditional on trust.

[3igen]

She wants my password.  

Don't. Goes for phones too. She will try (or get someone else) to install a key logger/snooping software. Even if you have nothing to hide, your phone and accounts will be far less secure, and she may "brick" your phone in the process.

Anyway... .she claims (again... .yawn... .) that I have had many emotional affairs and that I am not "honest".

Projection by her. She's likely guilty.

My wife emails (from my account) the lady with weird remarks  about how much "we have been keeping up with each other" and then pushed for a really close r/s with them.  It freaked the other couple out, the r/s fizzled and the job went kaput.

Similar story. Married woman texted me off a group text asking if I knew of a job opening at my company. That one text resulting in several crazy texts to her and the woman's husband by my dBPDw. Those people vanished from our lives quickly.

[motherhen]

Nope, nope, nope. *If* you truly had emotional affairs in the past and as part of your reconciliation sharing of passwords was what would make her feel safe, then fine. But it sounds like you are innocent of having real emotional affairs, where she has violated your privacy by contacting your colleague. If you were to give in to this, it would be the first of many things required to build her trust. Nope.

I do reserve the right to ask to see BPDdh's communications should I feel the need, which is pretty much never but he does have a history of emotional affairs. I would not hand over my password, because even if he's ever accused me of anything he didn't even believe it himself at the time. It's not even remotely in my character and he would be the first to admit it. I agree that I would let him look at some things, but not my conversations with my friends where they have shared things that are private to them and not mine to share. NO. Anything I've said I would have no issue saying to him directly so that isn't even an issue.

I completely disagree with the counselor's prooftexting of Gen 2. That's quite a stretch and makes me question his understanding of healthy boundaries within marriage.

[Notwendy]

"That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

I don't intend to bring up something against the BC is this is your religion/denomination of choice, but there are different ways of looking at this passage. If one flesh meant no boundaries- I can't imagine that is a healthy relationship.

My own take on this passage is that it is a direction for a healthy relationship. Before marriage, a person is most closely related to his/her parents. Once married, for the marriage to work, this has to change. While parents remain important relatives, the spousal bond should take priority. I also see this as a directive to the parents - a letting go. A parent's bond to a child is one of the strongest bonds- that doesn't change, but the parent has to make room for the spouse and recognize that priority.

I'm no BC or scholar, but I didn't interpret this to mean no privacy boundaries. I agree that there is a difference between privacy and secrecy. I don't share passwords with my H and don't expect him to. I think if someone was intent on cheating, there are so many ways to do this- get a prepaid phone, other e mail- even with a password. Trust is also important. I don't feel a need to see my H's e mails.

These are just my thoughts, but there are different ways to interpret a passage. "One flesh" has meaning, but in this statement- it is in also in context of the relationship to parents.

[GaGrl]

I see the email action she took with your female colleague as a direct correlation to the action she took in your legal situation. She has proved her behavior to be inappropriate when she is triggered and misinterpret or exaggerates or goes to her paranoid place. Holding a privacy boundary helps prevent this.

On a side note, DH and I have been married now for 10 years, and he is the recovering Non (with my having a few PDs in my extended family). Our marriage is solid. We don't even discuss passwords to each other's email or other accounts,  Except to laugh about how to get creative when a new account requires something different. If something that is a non-issue with most people is a red flag with your relationship, it's an opportunity to spend some time going deep.

[formflier]

For me, no, it's honestly not my TOP choice for religion and location of church.  This place is "regular Baptist", I tend to be more in line with "cooperative baptist".  Boy... .we could spend all day talking about arguments and nuances that Baptists make with each other.

This place, (church), tends to focus heavily on self-judgment.  Basically whip yourself about your sin and then at some point acknowledge that Jesus has saved you from that.

I (personally) tend to believe that Jesus has saved us from sin and from self-judgement.  I believe the Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit came and it is his job to judge us and influence us to change (repent).

So, instead of judging ourselves, our job is to open and "tender" to the Spirit's leading and if sin is revealed in our lives, then we are supposed to confess it and repent.

When I talk about "self judgment" in context of this church, I am talking about "looking" for things that indicate pride and selfishness.  I don't think acknowledging you lied and repenting is "self judgement".  I think that is obvious.

Hope this helps give you guys a flavor of where i am and the differences with this church.

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not one to argue with someone over their choice of religion. However, a whip yourself up over sin approach seems to me to be triggering and shaming to those of us who struggle with BPD/co-dependency. Many of us got blamed and shamed, and blame ourselves probably too much.

We've talked about this in ACOA groups and I think it is even in their book. The idea of a "get you God" - a blaming and shaming God projected by our FOO's. I know that this effected my perception. I felt that even if God forgave me, it was harder for me to forgive myself. Many member of the ACOA group I attend have changed denominations, even religions, as they established their God concept into a more loving, caring higher power.

I think we were given rules to follow, much like a loving parent has rules. But the consequences of breaking them are perhaps more realized in our lives than from some celestial judge. If we were to lie, steal, cheat, we'd destroy relationships most dear to us. I think we were also given the ability to repair our relationships, and change our ways. This doesn't diminish the relationship with or power of  God, or Jesus if one is Christian. I just don't believe we are passive when it comes to the effect of our actions and relationships with others. I don't think we can fully know God's ways, and that is where faith comes in but we can work on ours to the best we can.

Self judgement can be self monitoring. Taking our own personal inventory instead of taking the inventory of others is a principle in religions and 12 step groups. I think it is a good thing to do that with the aim of self improvement. But so is self forgiveness.

Sharing passwords can be a choice, but so is not sharing them. I don't personally think this is a major contribution to marital happiness either way. If someone feels the need to check into the email, suspicion, then perhaps that is the bigger problem. And checking doesn't rule out anything going on.

[formflier]

There is also a big difference in this area about "contemporary" (a rock concert) versus "traditional" a choir and organ.

I find mixing rock concerts with preaching to be irreverent (for me).  I personally like traditional hymns.  I find it gets me in the right frame of mind to "come before the Lord" and listen to His teaching.

This area of the country is contemporary.  We looked hard for traditional and we went to a contemporary church that did one "traditional" service.  They used a electric keyboard as the "organ" and sang hymns from power point, vice holding a hymnal in your hand.

Sigh... .

Yes, I am a fish out of water here.  I do want to understand why others make the choices they do.  Generally it strengthens my convictions.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think you and your wife have made progress and if she likes the BC and there is progress, then it is doing good. It may not be everything you are aligned with, but if it works, then it works.

He may not be fully aware of your wife's tendency to read more into e mails and to also violate your boundaries by using your e mail - forwarding messages, contacting others. This has been damaging to you in the sense of your job. When someone violates your boundaries, having no boundary may not be the best answer.

The Bible is pretty clear about how we should behave towards others, but there are areas of interpretation and different situations to consider. Maybe ask the BC about this:  "lead us not into temptation". Perhaps a boundary can be seen as a kindness to not incite the other person to cause harm to you.

[Fian]

The way I look at it is the following:

1.  Default stance is to share your password with your spouse if they ask for it - who cares?  They are your spouse and would never do anything to harm you.  Their default stance is never to look at your email in the first place - there is no need to look over the shoulder of someone you trust.
2.  In your situation, she has harmed you in the past by abusing the trust of having access to your computer.
3.  She continues to believe that you are having affairs and that will motivate her to misuse your password in the future.
4.  You believe if you do give her your password she will use it to harm you in the future.

As a result you are protecting yourself from harm and won't follow any advice that puts you in harm's way.

A couple of Biblical notes:
1.  Even Jesus did not extend trust where it was not due.  John 2:24, "But Jesus on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men"
2.  In regards to Genesis 2 (I assume this is about the part "the two will become one flesh", your unwillingness to trust her is not the problem - it is the symptom that indicates that you do have a problem.  Trying to cover up the symptom does not resolve the underlying issue - she has betrayed your trust and you don't trust her not to do it again.  To force you to "trust her" would be akin to a spouse having an affair, and then asking their spouse to trust them, and let them be alone with the person that they had originally had the affair.  Blaming the injured party and trying to guilt them into extending unwarranted trust isn't going to make things better.

[empath]

I don't share my passwords with my husband, either. There are files on my computer that have confidential and/or sensitive information that would be inappropriate for him to see. Other files would just be triggering for him. He did share his passwords with me, but he has changed them recently and hasn't told me about that. He has a tendency to 'change' what people say, so sometimes I have needed to verify his version of what they have said - like he had to stay in his position of leadership, per order by the clergy. (not what they said) That being said, I have demonstrated good personal boundaries.

Our pwBPD do not have good personal boundaries -- there is a blurring of the lines between me and we. This was one of the things that I was complaining to my husband about long before I even knew about BPD.

As far as theologically being one flesh, I disagree with the BC's interpretation of Genesis 2. Marriage is a spiritual unity that preserves the boundaries of separateness of the individuals. Even within the Godhead, there is a separateness within the unity. The passage that comes to mind is Ephesians 5:31-32, I think, where Paul speaks of marriage as an image of Christ and the Church.

The other issue is that Biblically, trusting someone who is untrustworthy is asking for trouble. (Proverbs has a lot of wisdom about this) I've had to say to my h that he has proven himself untrustworthy in certain areas, so I couldn't trust him in those.

Part of my concerns about biblical counseling is that it can lean heavily toward the judgmental side and focus on following the rules. This makes it very desirable for people who want to prove that they are okay with God, but it is difficult to address the relational issues when we are focused on the rules. I think there are places for rules and that they should be followed (especially if there are laws that are being violated), but they are not a substitute for the relationship.

My husband's FOO is very 'religious' and comes from a baptist background with lots of rule following and "God's going to get you" thinking. He has said that he believed if he followed the rules, everything would be wonderful in his life. Unfortunately, he also tries to earn approval and acceptance from God -- and needs proof that he is 'right'.