Emotional Vs Logical the balanced brain and Neuroscience

[Lilyroze]

I have seen a couple threads and didn't want to thread jack, thought this might be helpful or interest to some.
When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity. Dale Carneige

We can be persuasive using only logic or only emotion, but the effect will be short-term and unbalanced. You need both according to Neuroscience and communication experts. That is what makes a balanced mind, and life.

If you are trying to help a loved one or someone deal with their emotion you can simply say "It seemed as through you felt a strong emotion just now," and then give the person some space to talk about what they're feeling.

Whereas logic is the language of the conscious mind, emotion is the language of the unconscious mind. We know that emotions are reactions to perceived and imagined stimuli, not based on logic, but on one's own personal experiences. Emotions often outweigh our logic.

In his book Emotional Intelligence, Daniel Goleman asserts that understanding emotions is more pertinent to leading a successful life than having a high intelligence. Often people of high IQ struggle at work because of their weaknesses in fundamental human relation skills.

Most of us may not even realize this, but the roots for motion and emotion are virtually identical. Emotions are thoughts in motion. Movere, from the Latin, means to move. Exmovere or emovere means to move on or out, hence to get excited.

We are persuaded by reason, but we are moved by emotion. Several studies conclude that up to 90 percent of the decisions we make are based on emotions.

 We use logic to justify our actions to ourselves and to others. Neuroscience has recent studies of note that emotion will always win over logic and that imagination will always win over reality. Think about talking to children about their fear of the dark, or to someone about their fear of spiders. You know it is useless to use logic to persuade them that their thoughts and actions don't make sense. They are still convinced that there is a problem.

Emotions create movement and action. They generate energy during talks and get people to act upon the situation being presented. The challenge with relying exclusively on emotion to persuade someone is that after they have left the persuasive situation, their emotions fade, leaving them with nothing solid to fall back on. Logic plays the role of creating a foundation for emotion. This balance between logic and emotion could be called the twin engines of persuasion and influence. Persuaders know that each audience and individual has a different balance between logic and emotion. Your analytical type personalities need more logic than emotion. Your amiable personalities require more emotion and less logic. Always remember, you have to have both elements present in your message, regardless of the personality listening types.

On top of that even if someone has BPD or is a non there are many different thought patterns, listening types, and love languages.

It is also of note that some who have pure logic and no emotions have damage to the brain, as emotions are needed to make decisions as well.

Seeking a deeper understanding of this led me to the work of "Antonio Damasio, a Portuguese neuroscientist who's been based in the US for many years, and whose 1994 book Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain is a landmark in contemporary neuroscience."

Sometimes there is never any proof or logical to prove someone is lying to you or having an affair or crossed boundaries. It might be a gut feeling. We have seen on here at least one person who finally had to dig proof of tons of betraying on dating profiles, and see they were in fact lied to and their lover had many. The lover kept denying gas-lighting putting in FOG,  but they said they ignored their gut all along. Lover said all in your head, not logical so there is a  reason for emotions in our lives as well.

In fact according :  Antonio Damasio's research in neuroscience has shown that emotions play a central role in social cognition and decision-making".

Note that in Damasio's view emotion and feeling are not in opposition to reason but provide essential support to the reasoning process. He actually made a groundbreaking discovery. He studied people with damage in the part of the brain where emotions are generated. He found that they seemed normal, except that they were not able to feel emotion. These people all had one thing in common they couldn't make decisions. Something even as simple as chicken vs turkey.

 According to Damasio:" The brain is constantly receiving signals from the body, registering what is going on inside of us. It then processes the signals in neural maps, which it then compiles in the so-called somatosensory centers. Feelings occur when the maps are read and it becomes apparent that emotional changes have been recorded—as snapshots of our physical state, so to speak."

When you are creating the logical side of your message, you must understand the concept of the number seven. This is also known as channel capacity, which is the amount of room in our brains capable of storing various kinds of information. George Miller, professor of psychology at Princeton University, wrote, "There seems to be some limitation built into us either by learning or by the design of our nervous systems, a limit that keeps our channel capacities in this general range."[4] There is only so much room in your prospect's brain to absorb logical numbers and information. This is why phone numbers only have seven digits.

According to recent studies in neuroscience, those who believe they can build a case for their side using reason are doomed to be poor negotiators, because they don’t understand the real factors that are driving the other party to come to a decision. So once again back to the balanced brain and communication, using both logic and emotion.

[Notwendy]

This is a good point to make. Emotions serve a purpose, and they may not be entirely irrational. Growing up with BPD mom, I have learned to be sensitive to the slight changes that happen when someone is about to be angry or triggered. I could see my mother's face become slightly flushed, her pupils get larger. As a kid, I didn't have words for this- but the fear and warning feelings would tell me to watch out. Because of this, I can tell if someone is upset or angry, even before they may be aware of it, but the feeling is what tells me this.

That "feeling" that someone is cheating could be based on the emotional response to subtle sighs. A whiff of perfume, inattentiveness, something different during intimacy. Our feelings may be a response to signs we aren't fully aware of, and can not articulate.

Animals have great non-verbal sense. It is how they survive. They can tell if their owner is fearful.

And our feelings have the potential to mislead us as well, create dysfunction in relationships. This is where we need logic. Ideally, we use both, not one without the other.

[Oncebitten]

LR


This is an excellent post.  Very insightful.  I think some of us nons... this 1 in particular can be to logical at times... .it is a gift and a curse in a relationship with a pwBPD.  It helps in that logic tells you that it is the disease acting out and keeps you from over reacting... .but it hinders in that you cannot always feel what they need you to feel.

I know that at times I need to be more aware of my own emotions to be able to help her.

[Notwendy]

How we deal with emotions is influenced by our own FOO's. Many of us were raised in families that didn't handle emotions well. One principle I have read about marriages is that we tend to choose partners who "match us" in emotional maturity. That can be an eye opener. The book "Passionate Marriage" uses the term differentiated to describe emotional maturity with healthy boundaries. Then it also makes an important point: each person thinks their partner is less differentiated than themselves.


So true! Both my H and I thought we were the most differentiate one. Why? It was because we both had dysfunctional ways of handling emotions and poor boundaries- as did our FOO's. They were different ways and each one of us thought our way was the best way since it worked for us in our families. But neither of them worked for us as a couple.

They were actually two poles of the spectrum when it came to emotions. In my family, BPD Mom's feelings were intense and all over the place. We were expected to manage her feelings but our own were not allowed. In my H's, feelings were suppressed as a means of managing them. When we got married, neither of us were good at managing our own feelings, but had dysfunctional ways of managing other people's feelings.

I had to learn that it is my business to manage my own feelings and leave others to manage their own. Only when I did this could we start to actually manage feelings in a healthier way.

Using logic to discern our own feelings makes sense. Using it to control, suppress, diminish someone else's feelings doesn't.

It is a sobering thought to think that we nons are just as emotionally dysfunctional as a BPD partner, but I believe that if we can consider this, and take steps to work on ourselves, then this is a chance to change the dynamics in the relationship by being less triggered, less reactive, and less judgmental of them. If we can stay calm enough to not try to manage their emotions- and let them deal with them- it may be a chance for them to learn to manage their own feelings better as well.

[Lilyroze]

Thanks OB and NotWendy,

Very true. I am going to get your book recommendation NotWendy, I love delving in and researching, learning and understanding different types. Thank you so much for the awesome response and thoughts.

Douglas Eby, M.A./Psychology, who is a writer and researcher on the psychology of creative. Points out many who are good with emotion need to use it and the creativity that comes with it. It is a gift and to not makes you sick physically lots of time. More introverted tend to be this way. Found interesting enough spiritual meaning of certain cancers is repression of hurt, anger or creativity. As you are poisoning yourself, by not expressing which makes sense, if you are a creative or sensitive type. Creative types tend to use more emotion to express things.  I am not talking the mental Dx of BPD sensitivity.
 
He also pointed out living in a culture that devalues sensitivity and introversion as much as the U.S. means there are many pressures to be “normal” — meaning extroverted, sociable and outgoing. Or only using logic which can be flawed and no emotions. Where other cultures like Thailand honor those traits.

Too much using emotion and no logic is harmful which we all see with the BPD rages etc. But it is interesting to see  many get upset, angry etc in the stages as they should. But need to remember there will be people that due to type, love language, amicable vs analytical will use more emotion vs logic. You can't be all logic which some want on this board until they hit emotion of being upset. You need to have both for good communication, respect of the others gifts or type, and balanced mind.

I know what you mean NotWendy, grew up with a BPD mom,that best gift I had in life was a very balanced grandmother and Aunt and moving away. I am one of the only of my sisters that can live without controlling or gossiping about others, be kind, in grace and use my emotions but not let them rule me. My Mother has been giving silent treatment to me for years now her. Now currently my UBPD mom and  BPD/NPD sister are in a fight. Family member said they are trying to drag me into for being debt free, as my sister is not.

Before would have hurt, now can just sigh, laugh and sit back realizing they don't know how to blow off emotion or deal with logic or life. So want to bring me into to scape goat. There is no way they can I have nothing to do with their budgets, lives, or contact. Before would have then thought do I reach out and  get them to be OK with each other. Now realize all that would do is put in the scape goat seat again. Or try to help with a budget , but they don't want solutions they want to use emotions to fight. So just sit back and will watch the emotional fireworks from afar.

I am a creative type, have empathy for others but have had to learn not to care take, nor let another destroy me for my gifts. Meaning if you are an empathic type or non as you know you tend to want to fix, help, make better. Which is OK and good in a healthy relationship that can give back. If not the relationship becomes unbalanced as there will be times we need care, can't give 100% and need someone to meet us half way, or be there BPD people usually can't. The healthy part is seeing that, healing it, accepting it and moving on.

As long as we can use both emotion and logic to achieve balanced mind and relationships, the outcome can and will be awesome. That is why I am delving into to understand it all, and be a better listener and communicator. To not judge another's feelings but try to understand where they are coming from. A skill I want to embrace learning everything more I can about.  

[Notwendy]

A word of warning about the book "Passionate Marriage" is that while it contains some wisdom about relationships- as the title says- there's also plenty of steamy material. It isn't specific to BPD but still the information is useful for any intimate relationship. I thought it was helpful in addition to other specific books on co-dependency. It uses the term "differentiation" to describe not being enmeshed/codependent. That is helpful I think for people who don't connect with those terms.

[Oncebitten]

LR


Good point, don't let others destroy your gift.  I know how strong the urge to help others can be.  You have to control it... .especially with those with BPD... .as much as we want to save them... .we can't.   Only be there for them and support them while they help themselves.

I have learned this the hard way... .pouring out more than I can give in reality and only harming myself

OB