Insights into the mind of a pwBPD husband

[formflier]

Be yourself.  Very direct and matter of fact.  Likelihood of that sounding authentic is very high.

FF

[Moving_On_Up]

Hi All,

New to BPD Family and I want start by saying that I am so impressed by the knowledge and insight you folks possess.   Thanks in advance for your help!

I suspect my GF of almost 5 years to be suffering from BPD.  The evolution of our RS is textbook from what I've read here.  And, I would like to share some insight into her mind if I may.

She's been a ticking time bomb the last few weeks and has been even struggling to keep her composure at at work.  Apparently, and I say apparently because she has an altered perception of how events actually take place, last Friday she had an altercation with her supervisor at work.  I'm not exactly sure what to believe, but according to her, she was right and her boss was wrong.  Well, she told her boss off and there was a meeting about her actions and whether or not to take disciplinary action against my gf.

Fast forward to after the meeting, she comes home and tells me that she will now be focused on writing "her essay."  She discovered some essay contest online where the winner wins a free vacation resort on the ocean.  She is convinced she can win and that this is the answer to all of her problems.  She has hated her job and the lack of $$ money she makes for quite some time. And, instead  of looking for a new job or focusing on going back to school which I hear about relentlessly, her solution is some fantasy about winning an essay contest!

Arghh, her logic or lack thereof makes my head spin!  As does her inability to accept responsibility for anything she does!

[Cat Familiar]

She discovered some essay contest online where the winner wins a free vacation resort on the ocean.  She is convinced she can win and that this is the answer to all of her problems.  She has hated her job and the lack of $$ money she makes for quite some time. And, instead  of looking for a new job or focusing on going back to school which I hear about relentlessly, her solution is some fantasy about winning an essay contest!

Yes, I've heard a similar flight of fantasy from my ex-husband during our divorce process. I think added stress can flip them into more extreme dysregulation and even psychosis.

My ex had been living on credit cards and paying off old credit cards by getting new credit cards. He wasn't working. He told me that he was going to write a screenplay and sell it for half a million dollars. (He'd never written a screenplay before. The only thing he ever wrote in our time together was a poem and a children's short story.) He then was going to go to the Academy Awards and he was going to drive a 1940 Packard, that he was going to buy and fix up. (He had changed out engines in his Volkswagen bus and his 1960s truck, but had never done body work, upholstery, etc.)

I was so dumbfounded when I heard this that it made me wonder if he was always that crazy during our marriage and that I hadn't noticed.

[Cole]

What a remarkably insightful threat. The flights of fantasy, socialization challenges, and lack of responsibility are common themes expressed by all.

My wife has had her bouts with fantasy (Just read my posts from last fall!). She is afraid of anyone above our socio-economic level, uncomfortable around those at the same level, and gravitates toward people with messed up lives and no job because they are not threatening to her. And while she has been very stable and responsible as of late, it is a daily struggle for her.

Fantasy, socialization fears, and failure to take responsibility are all symptoms of Asperger's. I know, as we have a S13 who falls clearly into the spectrum. Makes me wonder about the relationship between BPD and autism spectrum disorders.      

  

[SamwizeGamgee]

In all honesty, you make me wonder.  My wife has several BPD traits, and most of the waif type. She has many traits of avoidant personality disorder too.  My son (11) is clearly wired differently with pronounced BPD traits (emotional dysregulation and extreme responses to name a few), and he has many indicators of Aspergian traits, but not quite autism in the sense that he avoids socialization. He has was diagnosed with anxiety disorder, or mild autism, but that does not quite sum it up in my view. 

I wonder what between genetics and environment, nature and nurture, contributed to his condition. 

As sad as this sounds, I hope for him to not get into a serious relationship or marry.  Ever.  I can't bear to think of him treating a wife and kids they way he does me (his father) and his sisters. ---->Terrible thing to say, I know, but if there was something he could do to have some social connection, find purpose, meaningful and self-fulfilling work, I think he could be happy and not cause damage and trauma. 

[Cole]

Son has been dx by several doctors with Asperger's, bipolar, ODD, ADHD.  They cannot seem to agree on any one thing.

Current P is concerned he is developing a personality disorder. There is definite overlap.

[Cat Familiar]

Fantasy, socialization fears, and failure to take responsibility are all symptoms of Asperger's.

A few years ago I was accused of being "an Aspie" by a friend who is a disabled student's counselor at a community college. She has been diagnosed in the past as bipolar and was having a meltdown in a restaurant about a failing relationship and I was trying to "give her strategies." Yes, I now understand my suggestions were invalidating, I was uncomfortable with her public outbursts--actually I would have been uncomfortable even in private, I was coming from an intellectual place and not supporting her emotionally and to her way of thinking, I was behaving "like a man in trying to fix things, rather than hearing her out."

So, it got me thinking that yes, I probably would have been diagnosed as having Aspergers when I was younger. I was an only child, had a fairly normal life until my mother lost several family members in a traumatic accident, then I skipped a grade and the next year moved to a higher socioeconomic neighborhood, where I was shunned by my peers. For the next several years, I was sort of a recluse, with health issues and had little outside interaction, other than being with my BPD mother and my father, who tried to make up for all the ways my mother lacked.

As a result of this, I had tremendous social anxiety, developed repetitive behaviors which soothed me, became a very good student, but had about zero social life outside the classroom. I look back at it now and I think so much of my behavior was due to not having role models to learn from. I was so inappropriate at times because I didn't know better. It's taken me much of my adult life to learn social skills that most twelve year olds are well versed in. Had I not actively struggled to gain some emotional intelligence, I think it likely that I would have been diagnosable as Aspergers.

So how much is socialization, or lack of it, and how much is hereditary? And when a child is smothered by a BPD mother, the programming from her negative traits becomes part of the child's worldview. And unless that child actively rebels, as I did, and rejects that limited worldview, then it's likely that child will have some sort of mental illness diagnosis at some point if they violate social norms.

[Cole]

So how much is socialization, or lack of it, and how much is hereditary?

Certainly both in a variety of combinations from case to case.

S13 is just below genius IQ but gets D's and F's. Has no control of emotions, no impulse control, and is afraid of anyone he sees as equal or better than him. He would rather play legos with 7 and 8 year olds than do things with kids his own age. Lives in a fantasy world. Very much like my wife when she is off center.

D11 is extremely well adjusted and mature for her age. Strait A student, cheer leader, alter server, volunteers at an animal shelter and a soup kitchen. Rolls her eyes at mom's BPD antics. (though they have all but disappeared as of late!)        

Not a good case for the socialization argument in this house, but that could be quite different for another family.

[Cole]

I was behaving "like a man in trying to fix things, rather than hearing her out."

If you were all the time thinking, "I wish she would hurry up, I am going to miss the NASCAR race/baseball game/Monty Python marathon/etc... ." you have us pegged.  

Going back to the beginning of the post, CF's husband is a retired, Ivy League educated civil attorney who slips into fantasy about being a famous biker. Brilliant man who acts like a little kid at times- perfect Asperger's candidate. But it looks like he did OK in life to me.

[empath]

The cognitive instability is part of BPD, too. Planning a fantasy life where they are the center of attention... .  and being distraught that they aren't 'the one' to get that life. They are stuck in the life that they have.

I've had friends whose children had ASD's -- there was a big difference in how they act around others and how children whose issues are fear of abandonment, also from experience. ASD has trouble distinguishing social/facial clues, but they don't automatically assume that everything is negative.

Funny, my husband was describing our son as almost an Aspie -- he isn't. He probably has some sensory processing issues and unique perspectives, but he is perfectly socially appropriate and tears up at highly tender moments (like during his wedding). He also isn't that highly detailed - he overlooks some of the more mundane things. He likes abstract and sequential thoughts and doesn't really care if he is accepted or rejected.

Husband, on the other hand, has always been fearful of what others think of him (encouraged by his parents). He was quick to latch onto others, especially romantically. He doesn't get facial clues either, but he will assume anything not smiling is negative and a rejection of him. The anxiety is palpable.

Heck, I think "I wish h would hurry up, I'm going to miss the game" myself. (or worse, I really need to get to sleep)

[Cat Familiar]

It's fascinating the range and variability of what indeed is "normal" and I wonder how much Aspergers or BPD can be changed through learning. I think of Temple Grandin, who overcame severe autism to become an accomplished university professor, designer of cattle handling equipment and speaker on autism, who travels the world sharing her unique understanding of the different way autistic individuals process information.

"Parents get so worried about the deficits that they don't build up the strengths, but those skills could turn into a job," said Grandin, who addresses scientific advances in understanding autism in her newest book, "The Autistic Brain: Thinking Across the Spectrum." "These kids often have uneven skills. We need to be a lot more flexible about things. Don't hold these math geniuses back. You're going to have to give them special ed in reading because that tends to be the pattern, but let them go ahead in math."

I think an important point that empath makes is: "ASD has trouble distinguishing social/facial clues, but they don't automatically assume that everything is negative." This is quite different from BPD, where paranoia about being criticized or judged seems to be characteristic.

In my own case, I believe that I missed out on learning how to understand social cues and facial expressions because I had very limited exposure to other people, other than to my own BPD mother and my father, who was gone much of the time with work. Also I believe that she instilled in me the fearfulness that she felt and it took me a long time to realize that was something I had learned, rather than something that was my true nature.

I think I inherited an ultra sensitivity from my mother. I live in a rural area because I cannot tolerate loud noises, traffic, lots of people, too much stimulation. Being in a city blows my circuit breaker and I need to retreat to a quiet space. I find it intolerable to be in a congested city for more than a day and it makes me feel extremely anxious and depressed.

I'm fascinated by what sorts of genetic heritage those of us who had a BPD parent might have received. Cole, you are fortunate that your daughter is well adjusted and an achiever. Undoubtedly she has found strength in you and can see how dysfunctional her mother has been in the past. For so many of us who've been raised by a BPD mom, it has been ultra-confusing. I used to say that I didn't know which mom I'd be encountering on a particular day--the nice one or the scary one.

[Cat Familiar]

"Going back to the beginning of the post, CF's husband is a retired, Ivy League educated civil attorney who slips into fantasy about being a famous biker. Brilliant man who acts like a little kid at times- perfect Asperger's candidate. But it looks like he did OK in life to me."

I think so too, but he was judged so much by his narcissistic father, he feels like a failure. Even though he got into both MIT and Yale, his dad thought it was really stupid that he went to Yale. And because he went to prep school with the scions of movers and shakers, that he was just a county lawyer instead of a titan of Wall Street--his dad thought he totally wasted his education and at one point, told him he was no longer welcome in the family and that he never wanted to see him again.

I didn't truly believe how bad his dad was. I've heard a lot of stories about "mean parents" but when I finally met the old ass shortly before he died, I realized that my husband was not exaggerating how awful he was. His mother, on the other hand, was an angel.

[Cole]

I think so too, but he was judged so much by his narcissistic father, he feels like a failure.

I definitely think you are on the right track. My wife was brought up my a mother who actually told her
she might as well screw and marry the first guy who comes along, because nice guys don't marry "our kind" of people. Can't say that to a 14 year old and expect her to not feel like a failure and have poor self esteem.

W bought a new pair of white pants last week and was excited to wear them to an upcoming event. Now she won't, because it is 2 days after labor day and you can't wear white after labor day. I told her if wearing them makes her happy, then do so! She got really upset and said, "But what if my mother finds out?"  

Yes, I guarantee my MIL would use that as a way to attack her and tell her she embarrassed the whole family by wearing white after labor day. And she would bring it up over and over for years. Anything to get back at W for such an egregious, horrible act as wearing white after labor day.  

My response was, "You are 47. MIL lives 2 hours away. Who the hell cares what she thinks?" W did not respond, but I think it sunk in, if not just a bit.

I finally met the old ass shortly before he died

I suppose I can dream... .MIL... .a hole in the ground... .

Well. Off to confession.  

[Cole]

"Parents get so worried about the deficits that they don't build up the strengths, but those skills could turn into a job," said Grandin, who addresses scientific advances in understanding autism in her newest book, "The Autistic Brain: Thinking Across the Spectrum." "These kids often have uneven skills. We need to be a lot more flexible about things. Don't hold these math geniuses back. You're going to have to give them special ed in reading because that tends to be the pattern, but let them go ahead in math."

Great advise. My son gets poor grades and does not do well in school. But he builds working machines out of Legos. He figures ways to power them using rubber bands or weights and gravity. No directions, no outside ideas, no blueprints. He thinks this up all on his own. 

[formflier]

The parenting insights that are critical here... .is to focus on where your kid is "gifted" and double down on that area.  Push them harder.  Praise.

Areas where they are knuckleheads make sure that they get truth in their life about that, but... .super critical... .remember they are kids and need "grace before truth".  They may need lots of prep work to get their heart ready to "hear" things.

My 13 year old boy many times behaves like a space cadet... .totally checked out.  The reality is that he has the ability to focus on several things at once.  He actually is paying attention and thinks very deeply about things.  His memory is fantastic!

So, I focus on that.  I focus on his achievements and every once in a while I will gently remind him to be respectful to his teachers ( and mom and dad)... .and to demonstrate with eye contact and focus that he is "showing others" how much he is actually paying attention.

I'm aware of things my wife's parents still say to her... .really breaks my heart.

FF

[empath]

My husband's parents add in the God element, too. According to my husband, they told him that he needed to get married (probably 'to keep him from sinning' and that would solve his issues. His dad was both a military chaplain and a pastor and was a ACOA. So, emotional distance and verbal abuse and possibly physical abuse were part of their environment growing up. When I met my husband, his dad was attending seminary 1000+ miles from home while his brother was in high school and his mom worked full time nights. I knew then that that was a recipe for bad things happening. Brother became an erotic horror writer and alcoholic.

He went through AA and a divorce and doesn't have much contact with his parents, now, but when I see him, he seems emotionally healthier than most of the family.

My husband is the 'good, responsible child' who doesn't have problems. They think that our marriage problems are because I have a master's degree now... . 

Right now, the parents are 'praying for' our son to get his driver's license (he's 24 and is just seeing that it might be a useful thing to have) - they keep trying to pressure him toward that. Son doesn't really respond to pressure by other people; it has to be internal for him. And he is a highly paid software engineer at one of the top tech companies.


Some people's parents... . 

[formflier]

 
I got the "pick of the litter" from my wife's FOO... .by a long shot.

She is "little league" compared to their BPDish behavior.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I'm starting to think that my friend who identified me as an Aspie might be right. I found some interesting info about adult females who have Aspergers and I seem to fit a lot of the criteria. It's an under researched area since most Autistics/Aspies have been thought to be male and women have developed social strategies as they mature, to cover up non-socially sanctioned behavior.

www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html   Click on the chart for the "List of Female Asperger Syndrome Traits"

Here's mine: dresses comfortably, doesn't spend much time on grooming, youthful, androgynous traits, rigid in certain habits, happiest at home, artistic, highly educated but struggled with social aspects of college, does not do well with verbal instruction, anxious, sensory overload issues, hates injustice, outspoken at times, shy, prefers company of animals.

Interesting how Aspergers can be comorbid with BPD and I wonder if BPD mothers can genetically/environmentally be more prone to have Aspie kids.

[empath]

Here's mine: dresses comfortably, doesn't spend much time on grooming, youthful, androgynous traits, rigid in certain habits, happiest at home, artistic, highly educated but struggled with social aspects of college, does not do well with verbal instruction, anxious, sensory overload issues, hates injustice, outspoken at times, shy, prefers company of animals.

So, basically a highly sensitive creative person... .  I could name several of my friends who are like this, but none of them would be Aspergers.

[Cat Familiar]

So, basically a highly sensitive creative person... .

Thanks, that's a generous way of looking at it. At this point in my life, I would agree that I don't express much externally that would identify me as an Aspy, but certainly that wouldn't have been true in my adolescence or early adulthood. Actually, anyone who has followed my posts for a while could probably see that I've been socially inappropriate, unintentionally hijacking other's threads, saying things that are not appropriate for the particular board I might be commenting on, getting a bit hot under the collar reading about a member being mistreated by a spouse--so there's that.

Reading Aspergirls: Empowering Females with Asperger Syndrome by Rudy Simone, I see so much of myself and my struggles, always feeling like an outsider, the stereotypical square peg trying to fit into a round hole. Over the years, I've made peace with it and have managed to live a very unconventional lifestyle, and thankfully, having married my current husband, want for nothing financially.

As more awareness of how Aspergers manifests in women and girls, I would bet that many quirky, eccentric, self-sufficient women may find a sense of peace and companionship learning about others who've always been outliers. It's a bit lonely when you think you're the only oddball out there.

[empath]

It's a bit lonely when you think you're the only oddball out there.

Yes, it is for all of us who are 'oddballs' or outliers or in spots where there aren't a lot of other women like us. I'm glad that you are finding it helpful and insightful to understanding more about yourself. That is so important for us to be healthy, especially in relationships where there are relational difficulties and our sense of self gets distorted.

[Cat Familiar]

That is so important for us to be healthy, especially in relationships where there are relational difficulties and our sense of self gets distorted.

Yes, and for those of us who've had more than one BPD spouse, we experience the self-recriminations--"What's wrong with me that I did this not once, but twice--and add in a BPD boyfriend--three times!" The easy answer is having a BPD mom, but as I dig deeper, being oblivious to some social cues that wouldn't slip by someone with more emotional intelligence, I think I just didn't notice some of their dysfunctional behavior.

In retrospect, it's quite clear. I now realize some of the behavioral inappropriateness that I ignored, made excuses for, chalked up to "stress."

Thankfully emotional intelligence is a skill set that can be learned. For some, it's second nature, but for me, it takes study since I didn't have any role models as a child.

I've bristled at Notwendy's thesis that people of similar levels of emotional maturity are drawn together. I don't have a problem with this concept with my current husband, however thinking that I somehow was at the same level of my first husband who was physically abusive, adulterous, financially irresponsible, criminal, and reprehensible in general--I'd much rather believe that I had an inability to see clearly who he was at the outset of our relationship and because I have a stubborn personality, I thought I could change him into some form of his "best self."

When I finally broke up with him, I did see him clearly and wondered if he had always been that crazy and that I just hadn't noticed.

[Cat Familiar]

My newest revelation, as of yesterday, is that my dad was Aspergers. And I'm realizing how intolerant of extremely emotionally expressive people that I've been. It's unlikely that most people would be aware that I held contempt for people being "overly emotional" because I've had a lifetime of perfecting my poker face. But it's always made me feel really uncomfortable when someone has been emotional in my presence.

So, as fate would have it, I chose two highly emotional BPD husbands and one long-term boyfriend. We learn what we need to learn, I guess, even though I've been kicking and struggling the whole way.

Perhaps the lesson I've needed to understand that I don't have to join them on their roller coaster ride. I can safely watch from the ground and bless them and let them ride it out.

[Cole]

And I'm realizing how intolerant of extremely emotionally expressive people that I've been.

So, as fate would have it, I chose two highly emotional BPD husbands and one long-term boyfriend.

Same here. I have always been more logical than emotional and do not like being around people who are overly emotional. Many years in law enforcement reinforced it. My own emotions had to be turned off to perform the job properly; I was charged with enforcing the codified law of the people, not my own beliefs. And the emotions of all the people I dealt with in the course of a day have to be tuned out or I would have gone insane.      

So, here we are. Spock married to Lucille Ball. Highly illogical.

[Cat Familiar]

And the emotions of all the people I dealt with in the course of a day have to be tuned out or I would have gone insane.     

So, here we are. Spock married to Lucille Ball. Highly illogical.


It's a handy skill to be able to tune out other people's emotions. As a child, I learned how to do that externally, by perfecting my poker face, but it was still a gut-punch to have someone freak out in my presence, especially when I was the target.

Lately I've been able to watch my husband's mini-meltdowns without feeling as gut-punched. And it's been ironic to see him try to agitate me and presume that if I stay detached, I don't care about him.

I used to be a sucker for the guilt trip--"Oh, you don't care about me," and I'd go into reassurance mode. Of course with a pwBPD, there will never be enough reassurance in the universe to placate them. It's been very freeing not to do that on command any more.