I want to draw the line in the sand

[Everglow]

Finally - after being in therapy and reading as much as I can, I understand MY need to set boundaries w my pwBPD. Last month has been disgusting. He's finally finished up his university degree which meant he's been away from home during  the week for 3 years, and he returns home on the weekend. He drinks a lot, has been stating outright what is wrong with the way our home is being run, how our girls are being raised ( twin 41/2) or how I've screwed up parenting of my teens. How contemptible he finds me, with the days he is at home more being outright hostile or emotional abuse- no physical touch limited interaction w me. Saying , in the car while with our little ones " you'd make a great girlfriend , but you're a terrible wife... .". I have been setting real boundaries for about 6 weeks or more. Supporting feelings, but not staying for circulars, demanding that blaming and judging stop, Validating, finding the grain of truth, trying to work together, etc.our relationship has got progressively worse.  We were meant to go to Mexico to celebrate his finishing school - after the last 6 months and what's happened in the last 3 days, I told him last night I wasn't going.   PwBPD - first anger, then pleading, then he decides not to go, then he changed his mind and has gone.  My statement about not going was - our interactions have been so toxic lately , and things have become worse. I feel to damaged by what's happened to go. I need us to have this time apart, to decide where we want our relationship to go.     
So he's there. I'm here.  I want to be frank enough to say what I need but find it hard to express what I need.   Help please?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[motherhen]

It sounds like you need to be treated with basic decency and respect.  

[Everglow]

I do definitely want that . I don't ever want to be spoken to like that. There is no place for that way of interacting in our marriage . Period.

[Everglow]

I really need help here.  It's almost at the end. Every time a kid puts a toe out of line I am blamed. Hateful language , emotional abuse ( no physical touch, limited speaking).  How can I say what it is I need? Every time I say " the way you interact with me is damaging and incredibly hurtful " he says the same thing back, except he is basing this on how the kids in the family behave, how this means I don't respect him, how this belittles him... .I have told him I can discuss these things with him when he is able to speak respectfully, and have been calm and taken time outs.  Not working. HELP.  I need a boundary. 

[Meili]

That sounds like an incredibly difficult and painful situation. I'm terribly sorry that you're having to go through all of it. You need to STOP THE BLEEDING and find ways to END THE CONFLICT. It sounds like you have been doing good work with your boundaries thus far though. How does he react/respond when you tell him that you'll talk to him when he decides not to treat you poorly? Do you ever get positive results?

[Everglow]

He definitely cools down for that particular event. Most often however, another issue will arise and it will be right back the same behaviour. And it has escalated

[Everglow]

I should add, that when he starts a conversation about how I am to blame for something - let's say, my poor communication - if I try to engage in a non confrontational, empathetic, open ended way, he has taken to stopping it outright by saying " there's no point in even getting in to this. We've had this discussion so many times. It's pointless." 

[Meili]

he has taken to stopping it outright by saying " there's no point in even getting in to this. We've had this discussion so many times. It's pointless." 

That's actually a good thing because he's responding to your changes and not wanting to engage, is it not?

Have you communicating with  S.E.T. tools?

[Everglow]

It is good not to have a discussion that is completely one sided , where he speaks with utter disgust and contempt to me. However, there is absolutely no way to address his concerns or mine or to move forward with any of the issues he has concerns about in that setting.  We are not engaged in any sort of problem solving, or communication about how our needs can be met, or relationship building. Right now , we have three scenarios at our house -
1. PwBPD  angered/stressed negative, with the rest of us just trying to get through the day , with statements about hating being near me right now, he doesn't have any respect for me, which I disengage from and tell him unacceptable and I take a time out or he goes to do something for himself.
2. PwBPD fault finding without allowing a conversation to occur about problem solving
3. PwBPD behaving like everything is good and basically having a superficial engagement w me ( me asking how his days as, empathize get with his stresses, listening to his concerns,) talking about kids , jobs etc.

[Meili]

I remember when I was still with my xw and how horrible everything was when she was acting like that. No matter what I did, she would get triggered. Broken dishes, physical abuse, yelling rather than talking during every communication, and all the other chaotic problems that she would cause. There was nothing that I could say or do to help reduce the stress and strife in our house.

I wouldn't expect any sort of problem solving while he's dysregulated and acting like my xw did. There is just too much emotion involved.

I wish that I knew back then to not take what a pwBPD says personally when they are dysregulated and raging. It would have been far easier not to become triggered myself and respond in kind.

I know that I keep posting links to you, so I won't do that in this post, but you might want to check out the lessons to the right of this page (especially the one about surviving conflict) as well as reading about how to get out of Kardman drama triangle. Putting a stop to his raging seems to be objective one in your situation to protect the kids as much as possible.

[Everglow]

Thanks. I will read again as I have gone through those at least once each.  To add to this as background I hope the complexity of our situation becomes clearer. My ex husband passed away 4 years ago and I was left to raise them with my current husband. As someone w probable unrecognized BPD all kinds of issues have arisen with unresolved jealousy , lots of splitting to me about them - she's so lazy, uncaring, hes such a nice kid, you know I love them... .  Not only that , my ex and I are both physicians . He was able to put a considerable amount aside for the two older kids, each of which has inherited a significant amount of money.  This raises more issues for swBPD.  I feel totally unsupported w parenting, finances, house management , any of it.  He is now continually saying he feels left out, not included , etc.

[motherhen]

It sounds like he may feel threatened by the fact that you don't need him. You are financially okay, have spent 3 years parenting without him there except on weekends. By putting you down about these things, he is attempting to self soothe his own feelings. 

[Everglow]

I would agree. I think he feels incredibly threatened now that he is back at home. Strangely though when has been home has spent most of time out of house fixing his car, cleaning garage, getting his school shop ready , rarely caring for our girls on his own . So basically bringing the heavy without being present , even when he is.

[Everglow]

This is really verbal and emotional abuse. I want it to stop.  What words do I use to say this explicitly ? Are ther words I can use that will get him to understand the seriousness of this. We talk about not blaming _mso phrasing in terms of " I feel" ? What ? It ends up being an ultimatum if I say if you abuse me anymore I'm done.  I don't think he is aware it would be called verbal abuse ? Is it my job not to be intimidated and debased by his language and actions ?

[ArleighBurke]

It sounds like a very stressful place to be.

We all have our reasons for staying with our BPD partners. But despite all the tools we have, they will always have BPD. You *may* not be able to stop him from verbally abusing you. I know that's not the answer you want.

I think all you can do is protect yourself with boundaries. When he next says stuff - give him the courtesy of a warning "I find your tone/words/manner disrespectful. If you keep talking to me that way to me, I will <go to a different room>". Then make sure next time he says stuff, you just go. He will react badly to this - call you names - try to test you - for a while. Then it should get better.

Perhaps you can also try a positive approach. Can you organise fun family stuff and invite him to join in? My BPDw often says she feels "left out" when I organise stuff with the kids and don't specifically invite her to join.

[Everglow]

I really appreciate your response. I appreciate the practical tools. That makes sense, and as I already have done this I can most certainly continue to do it. I think the tough ones are the oblique insults , sarcasm and undercutting.  But I have been on it now for a few weeks. And will persist.   I think the splitting is the issue as well - he felt perfectly fine to head off on a vacation to celebrate his graduation and use it to help "repair " our relationship, while I feel so traumatized I can't imagine celebrating anything with him.

[motherhen]

It is abusive but I don't know that the right combo of words even exist to get that across. What matters in my experience more than words is actions. He doesn't seem to be putting much value in your words right now anyway. What will you do to put boundaries in place?

Talk us through your current response to these three things vs what you would like your response to be.

1. PwBPD  angered/stressed negative, with the rest of us just trying to get through the day , with statements about hating being near me right now, he doesn't have any respect for me, which I disengage from and tell him unacceptable and I take a time out or he goes to do something for himself.
2. PwBPD fault finding without allowing a conversation to occur about problem solving
3. PwBPD behaving like everything is good and basically having a superficial engagement w me ( me asking how his days as, empathize get with his stresses, listening to his concerns,) talking about kids , jobs etc.

For me personally, setting boundaries without an understanding of BPD and validating was fuel on the fire. Like you've seen, it escalated things. My spouse was very critical, hateful and treated me much like you are describing. Learning about validation and practicing validating the part that is true, still holding my boundaries but reflecting and showing empathy has smothered the fire. I'm seeing where you are trying to implement boundaries, but perhaps adding validation and reflecting to the mix might diffuse things.

[Everglow]

I'm sure I can reflect better.
For 1 , I would like to say " it seems you might be feeling  angry/and maybe overwhelmed right now. It must be hard to come home and try to adapt back into things. It would be hard for anyone to deal with that.  I would like to try to find a time when we can talk about this , maybe come up with some ideas to help get us into a more predictable pattern now that you're home. Unfortunately I can't do that when you say those things to me.
2. It sounds like it's feeling very unpleasant for you to be at home right now. What can we do?
3. We are having a great time right now - I  would like to set up a time though, that works for us both when we can really do some problem solving about the issues that keep coming up for us.

[motherhen]

Those sound like some great responses.  I wouldn't expect a lot of active parenting from him right now, he's too dysregulated and unsure of his place in the family. Perhaps finding ways to incorporate him into the family by giving him things that are easy like a fun thing to do with the kids, or reading bedtime stories to them if he's willing. Mine has never excelled at parenting skills, but in order to build relationship with our son I would give him the easy and fun things to do like giving a bath, reading stories, things that probably wouldn't go poorly. Whatever sets him up for success and gives him a sense of belonging in the family.

[Everglow]

That's a good idea. He is not very receptive to those suggestions - he is uncomfortable with the girls being naked so doesn't like to bathe them or really see them without clothes on . Still trying to understand that one. He sees the reading as my job, and he often is annoyed by requests to do things with the girls as infringements on his time - I am under so much stress, etc etc... .But worth it to keep trying. He likes to be the one who thinks up the plan and does so about every 2-3 weeks, sometimes more.  I think planning an outing with all of us in iris a good idea for when he comes back. He revisits the idea of " being the Alpha" when he is angry - actually more of a scary concept because he Is aggressive with the presentation.      Meanwhile, I am still unsure of how to manage his return given that I have taken this time to figure out where I am - and so he can determine where he is , in this relationship. I came up with the following last night. Could you read and tell me what you all think?   

Can we attempt together to reframe our relationship? To see each other as individuals , with our own different strengths and abilities, weaknesses and lack of skills , without seeing the other person as better or worse than the other, without judgement of right or wrong, without looking for the win, without punishment.

Can we both take responsibility for how we act and feel around each other - without blaming the other person for causing our feelings or actions. If the other person does something we don't like or agree with, we say something about it respectfully. Even when angered or frustrated . Or we take the time we need to cool down first.

You've been able to share with me how stressed and overwhelmed you are , coming home, trying to reintegrate after such a traumatic 3 years away. Trying to find your place again in your family, and adapt to getting ready for a new job, with all your pain. It would be incredibly daunting.  I would really like to find some times when we can talk about this, to help us get into more predictable patterns now that you are home.

[Everglow]

We can't move forward together if there is a platform of hostility, insults , and criticism.

[motherhen]

It sounds really reasonable to me. But, and you know there is a but when attempting to reason with a dysregulated BPDso I think the first two paragraphs will be taken poorly. Remember, that they perceive threats where others perceive something as neutral. You are trying to keep it neutral by using "we" and not pointing fingers but I doubt it will be heard that way.

I hear you trying to set verbal boundaries in advance, but in my experience this often leads to them knowing exactly which buttons to push and pushing harder. You want to draw the line, so he knows not to cross it. You can however just enforce boundaries in the moment without announcing them ahead of time. If he starts being verbally abusive, my favorite is "It sounds like you need some space, we are going to the store/park/wherever and will be back in 2 hours."

You've been able to share with me how stressed and overwhelmed you are , coming home, trying to reintegrate after such a traumatic 3 years away. Trying to find your place again in your family, and adapt to getting ready for a new job, with all your pain. It would be incredibly daunting.  I would really like to find some times when we can talk about this, to help us get into more predictable patterns now that you are home.

I would use this and build on it. Take what he's shared with you and ask how you can best support him in reintegrating. Let him know you are glad he is back and proud of him finishing his degree in whatever way you can express this that is true. Ask what he would like his role to be in the family and how that might look. What you are wanting is valid, to be treated with respect and not abuse. Taking the side door approach may work better than the head on approach. Or it might not.

Are you practicing any self care for yourself right now? Do you have supportive friends or family you can talk to? A therapist? Hobbies or something that fills your tank so you aren't running on empty? 

[Everglow]

I have an excellent therapist, doing a lot of self healing with him, and a limited number of friends to discuss with. I have always been very private in my adult life, limiting what i share about anything with anyone. One person in my family knows a little of what's going on.  I find I am so angry with my pwBPD I want to tell everyone what he is doing, but we live in a small city and this could potentially destroy future social settings. Obviously also it is me letting this happen - how do I justify that to myself or anyone else ?    I am rapidly adding hobbies and activities to my list other than running the house and working.  So I have been keeping active.  Caring for my kids also takes. Mental energy, and so it should. There is no other parent available. My daughter is starting university and  I am driving her there in a week to get set up.  Emotional and physical energy used for that. No contribution from her step dad ( pwBPD)