Need Advice

[aj4599]

Hi everyone -

So I need advice and thought that coming back to this board might be a good place to get some.

I've been dating a woman for about 5 months now. She is very beautiful, but what I found most appealing about her is how spontaneous she is. We ended up in another city on our second date when we missed our dinner reservations, and she was always pushing to go do something random and fun and exciting at the spur of the moment. She was also incredibly sexual, which was great, and although her random whims often cost a lot of money, I didn't care because it was all so much fun.

When we met we were both getting ready to start new jobs in the next few months, so we had a ton of free time. We spent every day together, and within a month had said "I love you," taken trips together, and she was even talking about moving with me when my job in a new city started. Then we had our first fight. It was a silly thing, basically me saying I wanted to get in the gym more because my fitness matters to me, and her saying she doesn't value my physical appearance so she didn't care if I worked out. But then, we never got over the fight. She'd hold these grudges and make passive aggressive comments and then when a new fight ensued, anything that happened then would get added to her reserve of insults for the next fight.

Now, 5 months in, I've gone from being the best man she's ever met and her soulmate to "a liar, insecure, fake, not masculine, gay, stupid, selfish person." I've continued to try to fulfill her every wish and whim because I love her, but it never seems to make her happy. She's completely cold towards me. I also found out that right after our first few fights she started texting her ex saying she loved him and then lied to me about it. She often tells me how much more she loves him than me although she says they are no longer in contact. Everything I do gets spun to support her negative view of me. Once we fought and she threw me out of her apartment, so I flew home to my parents house. She then told me this shows how selfish I am and do things without her. Recently at a bar she was getting hit on by another guy for several hours. I finally asked if we could leave because I was feeling u comfortable, and she yelled at me that I'm selfish for not letting her have fun, and insecure.

All that said, whenever I don't talk to her for a few hours she will text me. We can go from a perfectly normal conversation, to her screaming at me, to her sending me Pokemon screenshots, in the span of an hour. The impulsiveness I found so attractive now gets devoted to paying attention to things other than me (even if we had plans), and then I'm told I'm too insecure for calling her on it. She says something "just feels off" with me, and she thinks that even though I'm so great and she should love me, she doesn't. But then she reaches out.

I love this woman, for whatever reason. Is there anything I can do to fix this? She isn't diagnosed BPD, but my therapist suggested I read stop walking on eggshells which brought me here.Thanks so much.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ArleighBurke]

I've continued to try to fulfill her every wish and whim because I love her, but it never seems to make her happy

Hmmm... .This is not a winning strategy. This is a doormat strategy. (Despite what Disney and every women's magazine has been telling you all your life).

You need a balance - you need boundaries - you need to say no sometimes and be OK with it. That's whether she has BPD or not. I think the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" book even says it: if you are a doormat then she can't respect you, which means she cannot love you.

If she has BPD, or even many BPD behaviours, then her world is a whirlwind. She needs to know that you are strong enough to withstand that and not be swept away by it.

It's really strange - at work the people I respect MOST are not the "yes" men - I most respect those who say "no" - are strong enough to say no - to stand up for what they believe in. THEY get my respect.

So if she asks something inappropriate or foolish from you - you need to say no. If she's slandering you in conversation - you need to stand up for yourself - walk away. All politely. Having healthy boundaries is a must.

Have you read about Boundaries on this site? 
Have you read the "Stop walking on eggshells" book? What did you get out of it?

[aj4599]

Have you read about Boundaries on this site? 
Have you read the "Stop walking on eggshells" book? What did you get out of it?

I'm reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" now. The responses of someone dealing with a BPD partner felt so familiar to how I feel on a regular basis.

At this moment I'm sitting in a hotel room. I came to the city my gf is in to see her (I started my job in a nearby city), but at the last minute she said she didn't want me staying with her and crowding her space. So I got a hotel. Last night she chose not to see me as she said she was tired. Tonight, she made plans with her sister instead and is currently out with her. Apparently we're going to have dinner together tomorrow.

I sent her a simple text saying "I miss you" about 2 hours ago and got no response. I have no clue where she is, or what she's doing, but it really hurts that I came here to see her and she decided not to invite or include me in her social activities or even bother to respond to let me know she cares.

But I know if I say anything to her, or push the issue, it will reinforce her perception of me as insecure and needy, and further push her away. So I feel trapped, stuck in this hotel room posting on a message board on a Friday night.

 

[ArleighBurke]

I think your text "I miss you" really flops (sorry!). It sounds weak and needy and wouldn't do anything for her.

I'm going to try to provide a validating+respectworthy reply for her. Not saying this is perfect, but I'm open to comments... .This is probably best done as a conversation.

"G/F, I know that you have other people in your life and other interests apart from me - that's OK. And you're quite welcome to spend time with them - I don't want to change that. *I* flew into town with your agreement specifically to spend time with you, and I feel it's disrepectful that you're choosing to not see me. I miss you and I want to spend time with you. Tomorrow, I'm (going to the zoo, having lunch by the beach, whatever) - I would love for you to join me."

This "speech" attempts to do a number of things:
    - it validates her ability and desire to spend time with others. If appropriate you could talk about "I understand its daunting" or "I'm nervous too"
    - it stands up for yourself. Telling her what behaviour you don't accept. This builds her respect. (Yes it will probably cause her to "go off", but that's her reaction - testing your strength)
    - it tells her that YOU are in control of your life - and that you will have a life with or without her. You are going to do an activity whether she comes or not. If she suggests an alternative then be good and negotiate with her, but this is looking after yourself, and is a subtle statement that she doesn't control you.

Language is important.
    - "I feel it's disrespectful... ." - you are not saying SHE IS disrespectful, you are saying how YOU feel.
    - "I would love you to join me" - you are not forcing her into saying yes or no right now. You've just told her what you want to do - she can't say no! She can suggest something different - then YOU get to choose. Or she can stay silent. If she joins you - great - if not - she misses out.

Thoughts from everyone?

[aj4599]

I've continued to try to fulfill her every wish and whim because I love her, but it never seems to make her happy

Hmmm... .This is not a winning strategy. This is a doormat strategy. (Despite what Disney and every women's magazine has been telling you all your life).

You need a balance - you need boundaries - you need to say no sometimes and be OK with it. That's whether she has BPD or not. I think the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" book even says it: if you are a doormat then she can't respect you, which means she cannot love you.

If she has BPD, or even many BPD behaviours, then her world is a whirlwind. She needs to know that you are strong enough to withstand that and not be swept away by it.

It's really strange - at work the people I respect MOST are not the "yes" men - I most respect those who say "no" - are strong enough to say no - to stand up for what they believe in. THEY get my respect.

So if she asks something inappropriate or foolish from you - you need to say no. If she's slandering you in conversation - you need to stand up for yourself - walk away. All politely. Having healthy boundaries is a must.

Have you read about Boundaries on this site?  
Have you read the "Stop walking on eggshells" book? What did you get out of it?

I would love more feedback as well. The last couple days have been a rollercoaster.

We went out to dinner Saturday night, and had a relatively good time, although she hated her food (despite it being a very expensive place). Then, we met her sister's friends for some drinks after. She basically ignored me the whole time we were there, and when I asked her if we could talk or hang out for a bit, she started yelling at me that I was so annoying, and always nagging, and no one wanted me there. Her sister even tried to step in and say she wanted me there, but my g/f demanded I leave. So I did, back to the hotel.

The next day at 9 AM, I got a phone call from her asking if I wanted to go to the beach, as if nothing had happened. I brought up the fact that I wasn't ok with being treated the way I had been the night before, but was told that the REAL question I should be asking is why do I behave in a way that provokes her to treat me like that. Ultimately, hoping to just move on, I dropped it, and we went to the beach. We had a nice day, and then even a bit of cuddling that night before she left for her consulting job (she'd been denying any physical affection for weeks prior to that).

During dinner when we went to the beach, she mentioned that she'd ended up passed out in her sister's apartment the night she sent me away, and that one of her sister's friends had asked her if she wanted "to cuddle." She said she'd said no. But when I tried to ask for more information (the whole situation seemed really sketchy) she yelled at me and I dropped it. But the situation was eating at me, so I texted her Monday saying "I know it irritates you when I bring this stuff up, and am definitely not accusing you of anything, but I am feeling really uncomfortable about what you said about someone asking you to cuddle at your sisters and would feel better if you'd give me some more information about it."

This set her off (all via text). How dare I ask her questions. Don't I know the answer to these and how can I insult her by not already knowing them? Why do I not trust her, and why am I so annoying, and as soon as we start to have a good time again I go and ruin it by whining... .I didn't say I didn't trust her, I was just trying to understand what had happened and had even tried to validate how it would likely make her feel.  Then yesterday, she told me she wasn't going to tell me what she was doing that night (in the city where she works) because I've shown I'll just freak out and annoy her with a bunch of questions. I told her I wanted a relationship where we were open and honest with each other, and she started just verbally going off on me. I'm insecure, I'm disgusting, unlovable, she never loved me, *&$# me, she hates me, she wants to just be done with me.  I told her I wasn't going to participate in a conversation where I was spoken to like that. She also started going off on me for logging onto her computer for 30 seconds to look up a network password. Now she'd told me I could use her computer, and I wasn't even actually using it... .but she still said I was disgusting for doing it and that you couldn't look up a network password that way and demanded screenshots. I sent them and she said she still hated me and wanted to break up. Another round of texts followed at 4 AM today. Basically just a string of texts putting me down, talking about how terrible a human being I am, and saying she never loved me and wanted out of this relationship and me out of her life.

I ended up finally just writing an email. I told her I didn't want a relationship where name calling, and hiding things, and not prioritizing the other person's feelings was a norm. I told her I wanted to build the kind of relationship I want with her and no one else... .but that those behaviors had to stop. I said that I'd give her a few days, and if she wanted to reach out to me to try a relationship where we worked towards that when she got back from her work trip I was all in. Otherwise I said I'd respect what she said when she told me she didn't want to be with me, and we could break up. But if she wanted that, please do not contact me. I hate ultimatums or all-nothing scenarios, but I didn't know what else to do.

It's now been about 20 hours, and no contact. It's killing me, but I had to say that stuff. I can't do this relationship, like this, forever. I'm so tired. I'm not going to reach out to her. But it hurts really badly. I miss her so much and hate being in this limbo where I don't know if I'll ever see her again or if this is it.

[ArleighBurke]

I only have time for a quick response, but it sounds like you handled things well!

You've stated what you will and won't accept (boundaries), but the hard part now is sticking to those. If she tries to keep the relationship going, but still uses those behaviours, you need to back up what you said with action. If she decides it's over, that will certainly be hard on you, but I think you've done what you can - not all things are meant to be.

So good job! Now what can you do for youself to take your mind off and look after yourself? Sport? Gym? Nature Walk? Meet friends?

[aj4599]

I only have time for a quick response, but it sounds like you handled things well!

You've stated what you will and won't accept (boundaries), but the hard part now is sticking to those. If she tries to keep the relationship going, but still uses those behaviours, you need to back up what you said with action. If she decides it's over, that will certainly be hard on you, but I think you've done what you can - not all things are meant to be.

So good job! Now what can you do for youself to take your mind off and look after yourself? Sport? Gym? Nature Walk? Meet friends?

Arleigh -

Thank you so much for responding. It really means a lot.

She reached out this morning, but immediately proceeded to tell me how mad she still was about the computer, and then went on to how so much negative stuff has happened between us she doesn't ever know if she'll feel the affection towards me she once had again. She said irreparable damage has been done.

I kind of just reiterated my point, saying I wanted to be with her, and to start fresh... .but it had to be a relationship that wasn't the way we are now, with the name calling, hiding stuff, and not treating each other as a priority. I told her if she wanted to reach out tonight, I'd come back and we could give things a try this weekend. But it had to be her choice, and we had to actually treat each other differently.  No response.

Now I am not sure what to do. If I hear from her tonight, I'll go back. But what if I hear from her tomorrow, or Saturday? I initially tried to set a boundary by asking her to respond to me by Thursday evening (tonight). What if she doesn't do that? Do I not go, or give in? All I want is to just be nice to each other and have fun again... .I don't know why things are even like this, it's so frustrating and confusing.

[Meili]

Sorry to hear that you're having to go through all of this. I know how exhausting it all is.

So far I agree with all the advice that AB has told you. I would also add that if you haven't already, you may want to read about saving a relationship that is in or near breakup and A 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict (and all of the links in the bar on the right side of the page for that matter).

There are several tools available on this site to help you reduce the conflict and make conversations more manageable. One of the best tips that I have learned is to depersonalize the comments that a person with BPD (pwBPD) makes. I no longer take them personally as I realize that the pwBPD is hiding from his/her own feelings by lashing out at me. It really isn't about me at that point, it's about what he/she is feeling inside.

It may also help to know that in times of stress, she is probably going to dysregulate her emotions and lash out. This means that when you question her, she will likely feel shame and stress and lash out. That doesn't mean that you're never entitled to know what is going on; but, rather, it means that you'll have to find new ways of talking to her about it.

[ArleighBurke]

Please also remember: a boundary is NOT about her - it's about YOU.

It sounds like you've given her a "condition" or "ultimatium": Respond by tonight or it's over. That's not a boundary. Even saying: I'm willing to give it another go so long as you don't name call etc. Nope: not a boundary (well - not STATED as a boundary). A close boundary is: I'm willing to give it another go. I will not accept name calling. If you name call then *I* will X... .

A boundary is what YOU will or won't accept. And if she doesn't meet it, then YOU do something (walk away, go no contact etc).

[aj4599]

Please also remember: a boundary is NOT about her - it's about YOU.

It sounds like you've given her a "condition" or "ultimatium": Respond by tonight or it's over. That's not a boundary. Even saying: I'm willing to give it another go so long as you don't name call etc. Nope: not a boundary (well - not STATED as a boundary). A close boundary is: I'm willing to give it another go. I will not accept name calling. If you name call then *I* will X... .

A boundary is what YOU will or won't accept. And if she doesn't meet it, then YOU do something (walk away, go no contact etc).

This is a good distinction.

She contacted me, but decided ultimately not to have me come over. She said quite a few awful things, to which I tried to validate and then just say I wouldn't accept being spoken to in that way and would talk to her at another time. Then she hit me with the big one. A single text, saying "I'm going on a date tonight."

I got nauseous. I literally got up from dinner with my friend and had to step outside. An hour went by, and my friend consoled me (I was trying not to air my dirty laundry but tell him I was upset with girl issues). Finally, after an hour with no response on my end, she texted "JK I'm not, but I'm sure you are."

My response was "No, I'm having dinner with my friend Dave Davidson (not real name obviously). I would never do that to you, or want you to feel that way."

She sent a couple more texts about not talking to her at all. When I got home from dinner I texted her that I was home, I loved her, but I would not, under any circumstances, accept her messing with my head by going on or discussing going on dates with other people. That was a line that can't be crossed. What I didn't do was know what to add as the "what will I do if she crosses it" side of the boundary.

She knows that she's eaten away at my insecurity lately with some of the stuff she's done, and it felt like the fact that I was not engaging in response to her normal insults pushed her to get even meaner looking for a soft spot. I also wondered if it was actually her fearing I was on a date or something, and instead twisting it around on me. I don't know. I'm sure I'll get some nasty response in the morning to my attempt to say that the dating other people comments (and actions) is off limits. Awesome, something to look forward to.

Thanks to everyone who lets me talk about this stuff to them and is kind enough to respond.

[motherhen]

I don't announce my boundaries most times, for a BPD it's almost an invitation to see if you will really do what you say you will. They are best served in the moment. If you do x, I will do y is meaningless unless you are 100% sure you will be prepared to do y anytime, anywhere even when blindsided. The best boundary is simply not tolerating the unacceptable behavior. No need to announce what your response will be ahead of time.

[Meili]

She contacted me, but decided ultimately not to have me come over. She said quite a few awful things, to which I tried to validate and then just say I wouldn't accept being spoken to in that way and would talk to her at another time. Then she hit me with the big one. A single text, saying "I'm going on a date tonight."

First, don't validate the invalid. You can recognize and validate that she's upset, but you should never validate bad behavior. That rewards her and will only foster more bad behavior. There's a good read on validation here.

Also, it looks like the date text and what followed was nothing more than manipulation. It was effective no? You established a boundary by telling her that you wouldn't be spoken to that way, and that she's talk to you another time. She isn't used to your boundaries yet, so much like a toddler, she acted out. I would guess that it was designed to elicited an emotional response from you; and it worked as planned. And again, she was a reward for bad behavior.

This stuff is hard. A non has to be strong to be in a relationship with a pwBPD. Nons have to formulate (and it's helpful to practice in advance) new ways of thinking and communicating. Most of it makes no sense and seems counter-intuitive at first. But, relationships with pwBPD can work if both parties want it to and put forth the effort.

[aj4599]

She contacted me, but decided ultimately not to have me come over. She said quite a few awful things, to which I tried to validate and then just say I wouldn't accept being spoken to in that way and would talk to her at another time. Then she hit me with the big one. A single text, saying "I'm going on a date tonight."

First, don't validate the invalid. You can recognize and validate that she's upset, but you should never validate bad behavior. That rewards her and will only foster more bad behavior. There's a good read on validation here.

Also, it looks like the date text and what followed was nothing more than manipulation. It was effective no? You established a boundary by telling her that you wouldn't be spoken to that way, and that she's talk to you another time. She isn't used to your boundaries yet, so much like a toddler, she acted out. I would guess that it was designed to elicited an emotional response from you; and it worked as planned. And again, she was a reward for bad behavior.

This stuff is hard. A non has to be strong to be in a relationship with a pwBPD. Nons have to formulate (and it's helpful to practice in advance) new ways of thinking and communicating. Most of it makes no sense and seems counter-intuitive at first. But, relationships with pwBPD can work if both parties want it to and put forth the effort.

Yesterday I got a series of texts, most of them the standard insults and statements about how we shouldn't be together, and an absolute refusal on her part to let me come visit her. But one stood out to me.

"You talk about wanting an honest relationship but I don't even know where you are or what you're doing."

I told her that I do want an honest relationship and that she could ask me anything, have access to any of my devices, know my location, whatever she needed to feel comfortable. And that I was willing to do that because I genuinely care about her even when she says lots of horrible stuff to me and yells at me when I'm feeling insecure, because it sucks to feel that way and I never want to be the cause of that for her. And that if it were up to me we'd be together at that very moment.

As you can probably already guess, that was not a good answer. She said that she was trying to tell me something and instead I made it all about myself, as I always do. Maybe she's right, I probably didn't need to point out that what she's asking for is something she doesn't give me.

She ended with a flurry of insults, telling me to enjoy my life in DC (where I work) without her. I responded that I can only tell her I love her and want to be with her so many times if she won't believe it, but that I do and am here for her. This morning I texted her a quick text saying I love and miss her. No response.

So now here I am, no idea what she's doing, and she definitely won't try to make me feel comfortable. I'm just not going to text anymore I guess. Any advice? I'll take any help I can get... .There definitely seems to be a deep fear of me being away from her, but I don't know how to address it (and struggle to when she seems to go out of her way to make me uncomfortable with comments like "I'm going on a date tonight".

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much.

[ArleighBurke]

"You talk about wanting an honest relationship but I don't even know where you are or what you're doing."
I told her <the wrong stuff>
She said that she was trying to tell me something and instead I made it all about myself... .

So, she said "I'm feeling something that I can't articulate but it feels yucky". You replied "You don't have to feel yucky because you can see everything I do... ."

You missed the validation part! You told her her feeling wasn't valid by "solving" it! (Did I say validation was tricky... .?)

Instead (validating): "That must feel horrible - to not know where your partner is. I'm sorry you feel that." (Or "I'm sorry i make you feel that". "Would having access to all my devices help?"
She'll probably say no. And may even come up with some "other" reason to not trust you. That's her FEELINGS. They are not based on fact, so you can't reason with them. Just LISTEN, provide EMPATHY, and don't take any of it personally.

[flourdust]

You've only known this girl for five months, right?

Do you think relationships should be this hard?

If you went to a restaurant, and they served you a great appetizer, but then the steak came out and it was burned to a lump of coal, would you sit there and keep trying to eat it? Maybe cutting it into really tiny slivers so you can't taste it? Or would you send it back? Would you come back to that restaurant every night, eating the lump of coal, hoping that some day it might come out medium rare?

There are a lot of other restaurants out there.

[aj4599]

"You talk about wanting an honest relationship but I don't even know where you are or what you're doing."
I told her <the wrong stuff>
She said that she was trying to tell me something and instead I made it all about myself... .

So, she said "I'm feeling something that I can't articulate but it feels yucky". You replied "You don't have to feel yucky because you can see everything I do... ."

You missed the validation part! You told her her feeling wasn't valid by "solving" it! (Did I say validation was tricky... .?)

Instead (validating): "That must feel horrible - to not know where your partner is. I'm sorry you feel that." (Or "I'm sorry i make you feel that". "Would having access to all my devices help?"
She'll probably say no. And may even come up with some "other" reason to not trust you. That's her FEELINGS. They are not based on fact, so you can't reason with them. Just LISTEN, provide EMPATHY, and don't take any of it personally.

That's a good point. I want to fix this relationship so badly, and everything in it, I probably struggle with the validation. Or I validate but then go immediately into "and here's a solution."  I'm trying to read this stuff and learn, but it's hard.

And FlourDust, you're right in that relationships SHOULDN'T be this hard. You're asking the same thing the few friends I've confided in have asked. And the answer is, I don't know why I stay and want to make this work. I just do. It's not a "you want what you can't have" thing. It's not because I'm so happy. And it's certainly not because I enjoy the abuse.  I don't know what it is. But I just am not in a place where I can walk away right now.

For those on the forum, I have a couple of more specific questions:

1) She has expressed to me that she feels like I don't care about her. How can I show her that I do? I care so damn much, way too much of my day and time and energy is devoted to thinking about and trying to make her happy. But it's like, no matter what nice things I say or attempts I make to be there for her, no matter what errands I run or time I devote to making her life better, no matter what I buy or what sacrifices I make, it doesn't seem to move the needle. But then I'll say one thing that she'll interpret wrong, and it gets called out as evidence I'm selfish and don't care about her.  Any advice?

2) That goes into a broader issue of these perceptions she seems to have of me as this awful person. That I'm selfish, that I am redundant, that I am "basic," that I  Is there any way to impact those perceptions and improve them?

3) She says I don't communicate effectively with her, which I probably do not (at least the way she wants). I'm willing to work on it. I'm willing to work on anything! But she won't admit she has to work on anything, things therapy is a waste of time, and pretty much puts all the need to change onto me. How do people deal with that?

Thanks so much.  Seriously, having this board to vent and bounce ideas off of is really helpful.

[Meili]

1) She has expressed to me that she feels like I don't care about her. How can I show her that I do?

2) That goes into a broader issue of these perceptions she seems to have of me as this awful person. That I'm selfish, that I am redundant, that I am "basic," that I  Is there any way to impact those perceptions and improve them?

The way to do that is to start listening with empathy and don't be invalidating. When you've learned those skills, and can use them consistently, you'll help her learn to feel safer and more secure with/about you. There are several other communication techniques available in the workshops and lessons that can help you achieve this goal.

You can also stop being a doormat for her and establish/maintain your boundaries. When we become doormats, they lose respect for us and stop caring. They will project that onto us. When we first start to establish boundaries, the pwBPD (much like a toddler) will test the boundaries and throw a temper tantrum. Just be ready for it. Don't take her lashing out at you personally. Just maintain your boundary in a loving way. When she becomes accustom to your being rock solid, she should start to see that you do care; and to what extent.

3) She says I don't communicate effectively with her, which I probably do not (at least the way she wants)... .How do people deal with that?

I agree with AB's assessment of the small, snippet of communication that you posted and point to the links that I provided.

Many times, especially as males or analytical people, we listen to the words that people are speaking to us rather than the meaning that they are trying to convey. The words can say one thing, but the idea trying to be expressed can be something completely different. Look back at what AB wrote to you and how he showed the difference between what you said and what he and I both saw. Can you see the difference?

[aj4599]

1) She has expressed to me that she feels like I don't care about her. How can I show her that I do?

2) That goes into a broader issue of these perceptions she seems to have of me as this awful person. That I'm selfish, that I am redundant, that I am "basic," that I  Is there any way to impact those perceptions and improve them?

The way to do that is to start listening with empathy and don't be invalidating. When you've learned those skills, and can use them consistently, you'll help her learn to feel safer and more secure with/about you. There are several other communication techniques available in the workshops and lessons that can help you achieve this goal.

You can also stop being a doormat for her and establish/maintain your boundaries. When we become doormats, they lose respect for us and stop caring. They will project that onto us. When we first start to establish boundaries, the pwBPD (much like a toddler) will test the boundaries and throw a temper tantrum. Just be ready for it. Don't take her lashing out at you personally. Just maintain your boundary in a loving way. When she becomes accustom to your being rock solid, she should start to see that you do care; and to what extent.

3) She says I don't communicate effectively with her, which I probably do not (at least the way she wants)... .How do people deal with that?

I agree with AB's assessment of the small, snippet of communication that you posted and point to the links that I provided.

Many times, especially as males or analytical people, we listen to the words that people are speaking to us rather than the meaning that they are trying to convey. The words can say one thing, but the idea trying to be expressed can be something completely different. Look back at what AB wrote to you and how he showed the difference between what you said and what he and I both saw. Can you see the difference?

Thanks Meili. Yeah, I definitely see the difference. But its also not natural for me yet. I need to keep practicing. Out of curiosity, how do you practice by yourself? Like write scenarios down?

Also, what you said about them losing respect for you if you're a dormat. This is definitely something I've experienced, and am trying to combat. Why does it happen though? I almost feel like any display of emotion, or sadness, is seen as weakness by her... .what's the connection between this and that dismissive, ultra-negative view of someone bending over backwards for them or showing emotion?

[Meili]

Practicing validation (and more importantly, not being invalidating!) is hard. I struggle with it all of the time! It gets really difficult when I am in the moment and my x is reminding me of things that I did during our relationship that hurt her. I try to practice it in every conversation with every person that I have these days though. It is a great communication skill to have in that everyone likes to know that they have been heard. You can go through the WORKSHOPS and learn more about validating/not being invalidating, S.E.T., and other communication tools.

If nothing else, you can practice by responding to posts here and validate what the other members are writing about.

Not respecting a "doormat" is not limited to the the BPD world. It's fairly common for people to take advantage of people who give more of themselves than they should to others. I'm not sure why pwBPD respond so harshly though. I can venture a guess that it is because of their need to feel safe. When a non becomes a doormat, the non is no longer projecting an position of power to help the pwBPD to feel safe and protected.

[ArleighBurke]

Thanks Meili. Yeah, I definitely see the difference. But its also not natural for me yet. I need to keep practicing.

I forgot to add on my previous post: the way you talked with her about "if you distrust me please have access to everything" is COMPLETELY OK for a non-BPD person. Nons are able to use facts to get an emotion, and by changing the "facts" they can alter their emotions.

BPD are different - they have it the other way around. Their emotions ARE "true". Full Stop. They then use their emotions to get facts. Changing the facts does NOTHING to alter their emotion.

So practice Validation - it's a different way of talking and it feels so very very wrong - but it helps.

[confused1966]

My friend.  too bad we couldnt talk directly. Our situations are identical.

[aj4599]

Practicing validation (and more importantly, not being invalidating!) is hard. I struggle with it all of the time! It gets really difficult when I am in the moment and my x is reminding me of things that I did during our relationship that hurt her. I try to practice it in every conversation with every person that I have these days though. It is a great communication skill to have in that everyone likes to know that they have been heard. You can go through the WORKSHOPS and learn more about validating/not being invalidating, S.E.T., and other communication tools.

If nothing else, you can practice by responding to posts here and validate what the other members are writing about.

Not respecting a "doormat" is not limited to the the BPD world. It's fairly common for people to take advantage of people who give more of themselves than they should to others. I'm not sure why pwBPD respond so harshly though. I can venture a guess that it is because of their need to feel safe. When a non becomes a doormat, the non is no longer projecting an position of power to help the pwBPD to feel safe and protected.

Meili and Arleigh, I can't thank you both enough for taking the time to listen and respond to me. And Confused, I'm so sorry you're dealing with something similar, it sucks.

So tonight, I encountered something interesting but frustrating. During what started as a relatively calm text exchange, and following what I'd consider a "good" day these days (talking about future plans, seeing each other, etc), my girlfriend said the following:

"You don't even call more or facetime me. You profess your love for me and it seems like it's all BS. You're so fake and selfish."

I responded trying to validate. "It must be frustrating feeling like I don't care because I don't call or facetime you. Would it help if I did that more?"

Her response: "WOW, don't even do that. Do not patronize me with that psychology BS. Be a real person, this is just more proof of you being insincere. No one talks like that in real life."

Now that goes to question 1... .what do you do when they recognize the tools and resent you for trying to use them?

Also, we eventually resolved our conversation on a decent note. But then, randomly later after telling me she was having trouble sleeping, she says: "I need someone to cuddle with. But someone cool."

I responded that I couldn't do anything right then, but could come see her tomorrow or this weekend. She said "No, I need it now. Like a lifesized stuffed pillow."

Now that time I didn't validate, I recognize that. I tried to solve. But she keeps going at my insecurities lately by bringing up/implying other guys (like saying she was going on a date the other day, then saying she was kidding later). I know what will happen if I react and ask her to clarify or provide me with affirmation. She'll flip out, insist it's more evidence of how insecure I am, tell me that I'm insulting her by even suggesting it could happen, and say that if she was going to ask anyone over to cuddle, she wouldn't have told me.  But it's hard. I know she has friends in the city she's in, I know she's impulsive about getting what she wants, and it hurt that she said "someone cool" when she's always telling me I'm not and her friends are. I know in my head reacting will accomplish nothing but encourage her to behave like this, so I just told her I could come later and miss holding her. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit it got my mind racing a bit and really sucks.

So question 2: How do you draw boundaries and feel better about the possibility that they COULD go behind your back and do something, while not giving them the satisfaction of your reaction and having another reason to justify their negative impressions of you?

Thank you all so much.

[Meili]

Now that goes to question 1... .what do you do when they recognize the tools and resent you for trying to use them?

With time and practice, you'll incorporate the tools into your everyday speak. It won't sound clinical or fake. My guess is that what happened here was that she recognized the change from how you normally talk and the words that you'd normally use to the template. You'll have to learn to make it your own. I'm constantly looking for new ways to not invalidate my x and to let her know that I'm listening with empathy without sounding like a broken record or that I'm reading a script. As it becomes natural to you, you'll start to see other ways to accomplish the goal.

For me, your interaction would have probably gone more like this:

"You don't even call more or facetime me. You profess your love for me and it seems like it's all BS. You're so fake and selfish."

"Oh, Baby, I'm so sorry that I am coming across that way to you! I can see why you would feel like that. Would it help if I did that more?"

Or something along those lines depending on the context and how the conversation was already going.

So question 2: How do you draw boundaries and feel better about the possibility that they COULD go behind your back and do something, while not giving them the satisfaction of your reaction and having another reason to justify their negative impressions of you?

Well, any SO, disordered or not, COULD go behind your back and do something. That's just a fact of life that we must accept.

We cannot control others and manipulating them into being faithful is a plan that is doomed to failure. We either trust and have faith or we do not.

The boundaries are there for your protection, not for her or the relationship. The fear of what they might do if we enforce our boundaries is a real one that we all face when we start to put them in place. What happens though if we continue to establish and enforce them is that we become far more comfortable in our relationships. It sounds strange on the surface, I know; but it does happen and work.

[ArleighBurke]

Just a thought, but did "someone cool" actually refer to body heat? My wife often says she hates cuddling me because I'm too warm... .

[aj4599]

Well, some updates.

Last weekend I went to see her, and brought her a very expensive gift I knew she'd been wanting. We went to a nice dinner, and things started nice and then fell apart. She ended up walking out of dinner and then throwing me out of her apartment (but keeping the gift).

The rest of the weekend was up-and-down. We had a good talk on Saturday, and established a game plan moving forward. I'd stay in my city for work, she'd stay in hers, and we'd take things slowly. We'd visit each other, be exclusive, but also not be spending a ton of time together until things got better. There were a few minor conflicts during the next day and a half, but things seemed moving in the right direction.

Sunday night though, everything went to hell. We had a decent Sunday, a nice dinner, and a nice time with her parents. She let me stay at her apartment that night, but I had to sleep on the couch (of her studio). She told me she absolutely did not want a fight that night, and I agreed.

At 4:30 that morning, I woke up to a noise. She had just gotten back into bed with her purse, and I was startled awake. I looked over at her, and she said ":)on't f*&@ing look at me. You're disgusting."

I was still half asleep and had no idea what was happening, so I told her "don't talk to me that way." She responded if I didn't like it, I could leave. In fact, I should leave.  Being that I had work, and it was 4:30, I told her we should just calm down and go to sleep, and I'd leave for work shortly anyway. She flipped out, and began screaming to leave, and came to the couch and hit me in the face (I didn't touch her back, never have and never would). She then told me to leave immediately. When I tried to talk to her, she proceeded to pick up the phone, run out of the apartment, and call the police.

I left immediately. I was in the lobby, and the police came and spoke with her, and then me. Luckily I used to live in that building, so the staff all know me and have never had a problem with me and told the police that. There were also some offhand comments about how I was the only one covered in scratches and had a bloody lip... .but I didn't push that. As they were speaking to me, she began texting telling me she didn't mean it and just wanted me to respect her wishes. I showed the police that she was already texting me, and they basically said that I should leave but it didn't look like I'd done anything.  I was so scared, and still not awake, and just taken by surprise.

I left. The next day she texted me saying "so you don't want to talk to me now?" I said I would, and then she proceeded to put me down.  I then found out, later that day, that she may be seeing her ex-boyfriend behind my back (he had sent me a message on facebook a few weeks before, but I hadn't seen it since we aren't friends). He told me they were dating again and sent screenshots of conversations they'd had.

I asked her about that and she didn't respond until the next day, with a simple "what?"

I ignored it. I'm feeling so completely freaked out, emotionally drained, and also very betrayed. I think no contact may be the best move at this point. I literally got the police called on me for looking at her wrong in the middle of the night! And my one condition, this whole time, was that no other guys - especially her ex - be involved with her while she and I are trying to figure things out. Clearly that didn't happen.

[ArleighBurke]

AJ,

I'm very sorry for your situation. We all understand living with a BPD is a rollercoaster.

But now you're in a sticky situation... .

And my one condition, this whole time, was that no other guys - especially her ex - be involved with her while she and I are trying to figure things out. Clearly that didn't happen.

You stated your boundary. She violated that boundary. What happens now? If you truely meant your boundary then you would leave. If you choose to stay then you send the message that your boundaries are weak and it wasn't really a boundary but more of a "wish".

This is the issue with a boundary: it is about YOU and what YOU will accept, not a tool to try to control HER. So is this a boundary of yours, or a wish?