Trapped in a marriage with my BPD wife.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

If you look back at old relationships and see a pattern, it can be insightful.

Yeah, I realise now this relationship and the one before it were with BPD women.  I realised the last one wasn't for me early enough to get out of the relationship before things got too serious.  So I need to get some help for myself to stop this pattern.  

As for making my situation better, validating is really working.  She seems to really like it.  But sometimes it's hard to be nice to someone who is so mean... .

Also, realising I can do fun stuff that I like, and I don't have to feel guilty.  And that often she's gaslighting me or just plain lying, and not to trust what she says as true.  

And just talking to people about all the incredibly hurtful things she's done to me.  

I also should accept that I'm not trapped, but I chose to stay.  At least for the time being.

It's early days, but at least I feel some hope.  Not something that I've felt for a long time.

[PFCI]

If you look back at old relationships and see a pattern, it can be insightful.

Yeah, I realise now this relationship and the one before it were with BPD women.  I realised the last one wasn't for me early enough to get out of the relationship before things got too serious.  So I need to get some help for myself to stop this pattern.  

As for making my situation better, validating is really working.  She seems to really like it.  But sometimes it's hard to be nice to someone who is so mean... .

Also, realising I can do fun stuff that I like, and I don't have to feel guilty.  And that often she's gaslighting me or just plain lying, and not to trust what she says as true.  

And just talking to people about all the incredibly hurtful things she's done to me.  

I also should accept that I'm not trapped, but I chose to stay.  At least for the time being.

It's early days, but at least I feel some hope.  Not something that I've felt for a long time.

[formflier]

Seriously, what's the point in staying with someone that can treat me like this?   And think that it's OK?  How can I get past that?  

 My deepest sympathies for the loss of your Dad.  I hope you can allow yourself time to grieve and process things.

I'll do some thinking on your questions and come back to them later today.

FF

[PFCI]

Last night was an interesting night.  

Fell asleep upstairs whilst putting the kids to bed, which she'd told me not to do (or she'd kick me).  Came down to many of my chores already done (to guilt me), and a very angry wife.  It was brewing up for a 2 hour rant, but after she'd made her main points twice, I decided to leave and not be an audience.  SO I said something like "I can see I'm making you angry, so I'm going upstairs for a while", then left.

Cue angry shouting "Get down here now".  I simply said no.  Probably not the best response, but ... .

She storms upstairs, into the kids play room where I am, shouting and ranting.  throws a big box of lego over near me.  I back away, as I'm not gonna allow physical violence.  I always leave the area in that case.

10 or so minutes later, she storms back down stairs, telling me I Have to clean up the lego or she'll break my stuff (PC, phone, tablet etc).    

Initially I refuse, but then I pick it up.  Not sure this was the right thing to do, but there you go.

After that... .nothing.  Nothing happens.  I stay upstairs, read the net, stuff like that, she stays downstairs.  I swapped 2 hours or ranting for 10 minutes of extreme anger then peace.

She goes to bed, I sleep downstairs (through choice).  This morning, get up eat breakfast, my wife wakes up, comes down.  I stand in a place she can't pass me, put my hands on her arms, look at her and apologise for falling asleep and for making her angry.  She seems surprised (normally I'd leave the house without saying a word).  I get ready for work, then as I'm about to leave, I tell I'll be working late tonight (true), say thank you to her for taking our son to the dentist tonight after she has finished work, and apologise for leaving her to do the evening chores alone due to my work (she works full time too).  Say goodbye, gave her a kiss on the lips, went to work.  She looked... .confused, but not unhappy.  Feel like I've made some kind of breakthrough?  Not sure if what I did was right or wrong.  I was shaking with fear when we were upstairs last night, but... .nothing bad happened.  Nothing. Have I been afraid for so long for no reason?

Sorry for the long post.

[ArleighBurke]

Fantastic progress!

Obviously your different approach is doing something good and with practise things will become easier.

I would have changed the order you did things slightly:
- after she made her main points twice and you decided to leave, THAT'S where I would have said "I apologise for falling asleep and making you angry". Then give her an opportunity to recover: "I know that you feel very strongly about what I did - I understand - but is there a way we can still have a good night together?" and possibly suggest doing something together. She may calm down - if not then say what you did and leave.

Pre thanking her in the morning for the dentist was great! I'm not sure I'd apologise for not being there to do the chores, but certainly to say "I know I'm not here to do the chores with you - I do really appricaite your efforts - it makes a big difference to me.". Only slightly different - but it really depends on what works.

But great efforts!

[pallavirajsinghani]

I would recommend not picking up the Legos.  When a person throws something in anger and it breaks, let it stay there... .unless of course it is a danger to children.  Then you tell her politely,  "I am going to pick ... .up so the kids don't get hurt."

These subtle shifts in boundaries will come gradually... .we are proud of you.

[formflier]

Good job facing the fear and taking a different course of action... .

I recommend you stay away from right and wrong and try to think about " good, better, best"

You have changed the rules on her... .and she is trying to figure it out... .

The important thing... .your are the one taking action and she is the one scratching her head going... .What the heck?

More later... .really proud of you!

FF

[Notwendy]

Great start.

A change in your behavior is a step toward change. Don't be discouraged if there are errors. If we already knew how to do this kind of thing- we'd be doing it all along. Change is in steps. Sometimes forward, sometimes backwards but the general trend can be forward. Also, every "mistake" is a learning experience, something we can learn from along the way.

I am sorry for the loss of your father. I can relate to your experience in a way. My father passed away some time ago and it was a very difficult experience for me. I miss him and I know you miss your father. These are times we expect emotional support from our families- and to my surprise- the most disordered people in my family- my BPD mother and her FOO were shockingly cruel to me at the time as well. Forgiving them has also been a challenge.

You may see your wife in a similar way I see this part of the family. They are not bad people in the truly amoral sense, and they are actually good people in many ways. They would give charity and do nice things for someone in need. So how could they do this?

One of the mysteries of BPD is that it is a disorder that affects the most intimate of relationships. People with BPD have poor boundaries and difficulty managing their bad feelings. They also can't tell what is them and what is us. They pick up on our bad feelings- our distress can cause them distress. Then, they can feel like victims- like we are doing something to them. It took me a while before I could listen to my mother's perspective of that time, and her report was all about her, what I was doing to her, what everyone was doing to her. She can't handle her own feelings- how could she handle anyone else's?

I don't think it is right- what your wife did at the time, but it may have been all she knew to do at the time. Regardless of if you can forgive her or not, it may help to see this as not having anything to do with you, but about her, and her inability to tolerate the emotions at the time. Since raging is a "tool" that has worked for her in the past, it may be the one she uses the most. Not reinforcing them may lead to her trying different behaviors. Know that just like it is for you, learning new behaviors is new to her. It can be trial and error. But you changing your response to her angry outbursts is a start.

[formflier]

I decided to leave and not be an audience.  

 I back away, as I'm not gonna allow physical violence

I'll write more later... .but these (for me) are the two big focus points.

These are not "tools" but they are attitudes.  A way of seeing and relating to the world.

Tools are great!  Yes, I want you to learn them... .and many of the "word tracks" that go along with them.  They will do in a pinch or in repetitive situations... .when you are worn out and need to do something healthy... .but are having trouble thinking.

"Attitudes" are going to help you fill in the blanks.  pwBPD have a way of finding a new angle... .presenting something you have never seen before. 

"I'm not going to be an audience... " is a great attitude to have towards dysfunctional behavior!

"I'm not going to allow physical violence... ." shows respect for yourself and those around you.

 

Do you see the difference between an "attitude" and a "tool"?  Can you think back to what you were thinking when you made these decisions?  Anything else you can tell us, after a period of reflection?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

As an aside, if I put myself in the situation described above, I would be pretty much done with the relationship.  I wouldn't react with anything other than quite resolve.  Resolved to end it. I can manage her rages, and can be good. But, I just feel cornered now.
Am I bad?
I put up with so much over 19 years of marriage I just feel my tank is empty. I have no more desire to go through how OP is getting treated.  Do I need to change me, even more?
There is such good coaching here on how to be better and improve things. 

[Notwendy]

Samwize,

I think my best answer is that there is not a right or wrong way to choose what to do about a relationship. How people choose their partners is very individual. I think it is agreed on that one aspect of how we choose is that we choose partners who "fit" us in some way- emotionally, or our FOO, and this is something we may not even be aware of. It is part of the chemistry between people.

I think we've all had the experience of seeing a couple and wondering "what does he/she see in her/him?" This goes beyond cultural standards of beauty. Even some very attractive people may not feel attractive to us, and we don't always know why that is.

Likewise, I think we have all read scenarios on this board and thought "no way would I tolerate that". Yet other people seem to tolerate it. We all have different boundaries, values and ideas about relationships.

So, to stay or leave is complicated. Beyond the relationship itself, people consider things like children, religion, finances, age, length of marriage and this influences what they may tolerate.

So why should you try to change? The only reason I can think of that makes sense is if you want to for you. You don't change for the other person, or the relationship. For me personally it was realizing that my own FOO situation set the stage for some dysfunction in terms of relationships for me. That was my part. I also realized that this influenced my "attractive- attraction" part with other people. I was attracted to people who matched me in some way and they were attracted to me. This meant that some dysfunction was likely to play out with anyone I had chemistry with. Working on me could have results not only in a romantic relationship, but all relationships- with my parents, siblings, children. It might help regardless of any outcome of the relationship because it would be helping myself. A BPD partner presents the opportunity for this growth- the lessons and skills are not for the other person only. Even if one decides the right decision is to end the relationship, relationship skills are good to have.

[formflier]

I just feel my tank is empty. I have no more desire to go through how OP is getting treated.  Do I need to change me, even more?
 

I'm going to say yes... .hear me out a bit.

If your tank is empty... .who is in charge of filling up the tank?  Who allowed stuff to be taken out of the tank? 

If you don't want to participate in a relationship dynamic like the OP... .then don't.  Can you do that in your current r/s?  (for clarity... .not asking if your SO will "like" that dynamic being taken away).  I'm asking if you can make a decision for yourself about what you will do and tolerate in a r/s.

Big picture:  We (as individuals) mature in the context of a relationship.  Do you have more maturing to do in the r/s that you are in?

FF

[PFCI]

  formflier

The audience thing is something I read on here, and one of the things I hate most about living with my BPDw is the 2 or 3 hour rages.  SO I knew I had to change my behavior.  Scary as hell, but I did it.  Maybe it will be easier next time.

The physical violence thing is actually something I've done for a long time.  Generally, physical violence causes me to leave the area.  She knows this, and generally doesn't push it. A little kick or push, I make to start leaving, violence stops.  

[PFCI]

As an aside, if I put myself in the situation described above, I would be pretty much done with the relationship.  I wouldn't react with anything other than quite resolve.  Resolved to end it. I can manage her rages, and can be good. But, I just feel cornered now.
Am I bad?
I put up with so much over 19 years of marriage I just feel my tank is empty. I have no more desire to go through how OP is getting treated.  Do I need to change me, even more?
There is such good coaching here on how to be better and improve things. 

  You need to change for you.  One thing that's really made a difference for me is doing things I want to do and not feeling guilty.  Putting myself first.  Getting your own space.  Not being afraid all the time.  If you wanna stay with her (and I don't really, but I need to look after my kids), then look after yourself.  Than work on setting boundaries for her.  You don't have to tolerate the bad behavior. 

But if you don't have a good reason to stay, no one is forcing you too.  You should decide if there is a reason to stay and keep trying, and it's time to leave.   Why are you still with her, if you don't mind me asking?

[PFCI]

So, last night everything was... .normal.  As in how I imagine a normal marriage to be.  No fighting, histrionics, we both got involved in disciplining our eldest son for his lack of responsibility regarding his homework and school equipment, she almost started going to far but didn't.  She stayed just about in control all night.  She's very high functioning, in fact. 

Is this connected to what happened the night before?  I doubt it.  She's like this sometimes.  It's one of the hardest things about living with a BPD.  One day they are raging and violent for hours, next day they are nice as pie.  If they were always bad, you could deal with it.  But the good times give you hope, false hope, which is the worst.  Cos it's never gonna be like that full time, sadly. But it keeps you hooked, seeing how it could be... .

Main things I'm learning is that I have to take responsibility for my own happiness, not wait for my BPD wife or anyone else to make me happy. 

If I'm happy, I'm a better person, easier to be around, nicer (ie validating) to my BPDw when she's being good.  Which is good for us both.

Also, when my wife rages, says mean stuff, she's not attacking me personally.  It could be anyone.  Just happens I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Detaching from it and letting the insults bounce off you is a powerful weapon.  It's really helped me.  She tries to push my buttons, and even if she hits, I try to flinch on the inside, but not the outside.  She even attacks my dead father to get a reaction... .

So, I'm staying, for a few years at least.  Cos otherwise I'd lose my kids, and although my oldest son (9) seems to understand something is wrong, there is no way he can cope with her by himself.  And no way I'd get any visitation in this country. So I need to stay and help them, look after them, shield them as much as I can, and  give them a more normal role model. 

When (if) I eventually leave, it's not like it will be easy.  I'll be alone, after years of being with other people, I'll have to be careful about depression, which I suffered from as a young adult, stuff like that.  Or I might just really love it... .

I know my BPDw is most scared of being abandoned.  She threatens divorce, but she'll never go through with it.  When I say "OK then", she's "but you'll never see your kids and I'll take all your money".  She'll never let go of me.  If I leave, I'll have to leave first and tell her later, when I'm safely out.  Once I was leaving, and she called the cops and threatened to accuse me of beating her.  So I'll have to be careful, and gather evidence as to what's really going on to protect myself. 

So, that's what I've learned and decided so far.  Thanks for the advice everyone.  Sorry for another long post.

[formflier]

She knows this, and generally doesn't push it. A little kick or push, I make to start leaving, violence stops.  

So... .you have already been using the rules and strategies... .boundaries really.

And, you know that your wife generally respects them.

So... .I challenge you to find hope in this.  Is your boundary in the right place... .is "a little kick or push" the right place to have a boundary.

Again... .big     you are on the right track.

FF

[formflier]

Just happens I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Don't worry or apologize for long posts.  They let you "get it all out" and show us your thinking and feelings.

Can you focus a bit on the quote above?  Can you see how that can be seen as painting yourself as a victim.  I was just walking along and "bam!" got raged on... .

Honestly... .I used to have some of those thoughts as well.

What might be a better "attitude" to have?

FF

[PFCI]

  formflier

Ah, I see what you are saying.  But I mainly just meant that if she'd met someone else, and married them, them the situation would probably be the same (if they were a codependent too, I guess).  It's difficult to articulate, but what I mean is it's not me she's attacking, personally, because of who I am.  She'd do it to someone else, too, if they enabled her to.  Is that clearer?

[ohmygod]

My story is no different from what many have gone through. My point is however that this rs will change your personality. You will have to lie and hide to avoid the worst outburts. You were never a cheater and now you cheated. Is that who you want to be? A cheater a liar and a deceiver? I couldn't handle those changes anymore. The price was too high. But the desicion is yours. I leave you with a story that summarizes what I already said.


A Fable About Hanging On and Hanging On... .

This was posted here a long time ago, but, someone brought it up today so I thought I'd repost it.

THE BRIDGE - A METAPHOR

"The Bridge"

There was a man who had given much thought to what he wanted

from life. He had experienced many moods and trials... .