Fixing our cores - the ongoing engineering project

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Without the distraction of the dramas of a BPD relationship, I have been able to focus on myself the last 4+ months. Working out the pain and confusion of the relationship dynamic has been helped by learning about BPD. Throughout this process and even in the many months that I was actually in the relationship, I was aware that the root of everything is myself. A lot of thinking / reading / posting here has brought some things about myself into focus - most of which, I also realise, I have always been aware of.  (The relationship, I would say, provided a number of things, principle among them distractions from the bits of myself I just did not want to deal with anymore - or at least at the time in my life when I began the r/s.)

There's no avoiding it anymore. Or there probably is; we can always find ways to avoid confronting the truths about ourselves, but I neither want to nor can right now.  I don't want to for healthy reasons: I don't want to endlessly repeat the patterns, and I can't for reasons I am less pleased with: I am just out of energy.

I think that as much as I am capable of and even prone to great joy and general optimism and huge energy, both physical and mental, I am also pretty fragile in this. A couple of set-backs can shake me to my core. And I am always surprised when I am shaken and find myself doubting everything; all my choices, my abilities, even my friendships. I become far less sensible to the little beauties all around me, and more irritable and even quick to anger at the smallest of things. Usually then I withdraw and the withdrawal is because of something akin to shame, I think. Shame that I am not the powerful and engaging person that most people think of me as. Shame that I have such huge doubts. Shame that they seemingly affect my outlook on absolutely everything. Sometimes outside validation can snap me out of it and I'm good to go again, for a while. My outlook changes and I feel generally capable of dealing with whatever is going on in my life and feel like I have projects and goals.

Partly this is ok; we all need to lean sometimes and be bolstered by others. We need a kind word or for someone to just believe in us or like us for whatever. Mainly, however, I feel this is not ok - because, in my case, the difference in the feelings of "I'm ok" and "I'm far from ok" is sometimes very deep indeed.

I know what I need to do, I know what is at the core - a lack of love for and acceptance of myself. It's pretty simple. Can I meditate my way to that feeling of connection with myself? I think something like that is possible - but it is work, a lot of work, for ever and ever. And sometimes the outside forces, just life issues that would be challenging for anyone (but not necessarily affect everyone as deeply) require attention and work too.  Things happen, get us down, we connect to old feelings of not being good enough, which gets us even further down and proves what we, deep down, feel anyway: "you are stumbling through the same landscape, wandering lost, for many years. You don't have a map and when you get one into your hands, you don't know how to read it or else mislay it when you meet in a bear in the woods and have to run for your life. Then you're scrambled up a tree and the bear goes away, but you're there having lost your backpack and the poxy map and have to start from scratch". 

(I don't know why I developed that into a camping type metaphor - I don't even own a backpack and am a lousy camper)

How can I stop losing the map? How can I learn to read it and incorporate new things into it? How can I not lose faith in the map, or the journey, or my ability to either get somewhere, finally, or just realise that the journey is maybe the thing - maybe that's all we have and that's as "good" as it gets?

I know all the things - I know we create our reality, I know we choose how we are (mostly), I know we can re-learn and re-wire and re-construct our conceptions of things. I know we can be aware and constantly remind ourselves to be kind to person #1, us. I know where it starts - with self-love. Simple, as I said.
But so much work and the edifice seems to crumble so easily sometimes.

This does feel like a huge step back for me and I am sad to post this here. Sad because, dammit, I want to be moving forward and glowing with love and positivity and to help others.  I feel something like guilt for not being that thing in this community and in my off-line life.

And that's kind of it. The pressure I put on myself to be and show how brilliant, or even just good enough, everything can be. My long thinking process on vulnerability in another thread, truth blurting, looking at my values - all of it - is good and useful, but I'm bummed out that the process is not linear. I know it's not - I know that in my head - but the feeling of disappointment of that truth is a tough one.

It's the work that discourages me. The constant going back and having to shore up the foundations. It's just never-ending. I don't seem to have figured out how to make them more solid and reliable. Or else I don't do the basics of maintenance all the time.

What do you guys do, or how do you figure it, if this kind of thing resonates either now or in the past?

[VitaminC]

Without the distraction of the dramas of a BPD relationship, I have been able to focus on myself the last 4+ months. Working out the pain and confusion of the relationship dynamic has been helped by learning about BPD. Throughout this process and even in the many months that I was actually in the relationship, I was aware that the root of everything is myself. A lot of thinking / reading / posting here has brought some things about myself into focus - most of which, I also realise, I have always been aware of.  (The relationship, I would say, provided a number of things, principle among them distractions from the bits of myself I just did not want to deal with anymore - or at least at the time in my life when I began the r/s.)

There's no avoiding it anymore. Or there probably is; we can always find ways to avoid confronting the truths about ourselves, but I neither want to nor can right now.  I don't want to for healthy reasons: I don't want to endlessly repeat the patterns, and I can't for reasons I am less pleased with: I am just out of energy.

I think that as much as I am capable of and even prone to great joy and general optimism and huge energy, both physical and mental, I am also pretty fragile in this. A couple of set-backs can shake me to my core. And I am always surprised when I am shaken and find myself doubting everything; all my choices, my abilities, even my friendships. I become far less sensible to the little beauties all around me, and more irritable and even quick to anger at the smallest of things. Usually then I withdraw and the withdrawal is because of something akin to shame, I think. Shame that I am not the powerful and engaging person that most people think of me as. Shame that I have such huge doubts. Shame that they seemingly affect my outlook on absolutely everything. Sometimes outside validation can snap me out of it and I'm good to go again, for a while. My outlook changes and I feel generally capable of dealing with whatever is going on in my life and feel like I have projects and goals.

Partly this is ok; we all need to lean sometimes and be bolstered by others. We need a kind word or for someone to just believe in us or like us for whatever. Mainly, however, I feel this is not ok - because, in my case, the difference in the feelings of "I'm ok" and "I'm far from ok" is sometimes very deep indeed.

I know what I need to do, I know what is at the core - a lack of love for and acceptance of myself. It's pretty simple. Can I meditate my way to that feeling of connection with myself? I think something like that is possible - but it is work, a lot of work, for ever and ever. And sometimes the outside forces, just life issues that would be challenging for anyone (but not necessarily affect everyone as deeply) require attention and work too.  Things happen, get us down, we connect to old feelings of not being good enough, which gets us even further down and proves what we, deep down, feel anyway: "you are stumbling through the same landscape, wandering lost, for many years. You don't have a map and when you get one into your hands, you don't know how to read it or else mislay it when you meet in a bear in the woods and have to run for your life. Then you're scrambled up a tree and the bear goes away, but you're there having lost your backpack and the poxy map and have to start from scratch". 

(I don't know why I developed that into a camping type metaphor - I don't even own a backpack and am a lousy camper)

How can I stop losing the map? How can I learn to read it and incorporate new things into it? How can I not lose faith in the map, or the journey, or my ability to either get somewhere, finally, or just realise that the journey is maybe the thing - maybe that's all we have and that's as "good" as it gets?

I know all the things - I know we create our reality, I know we choose how we are (mostly), I know we can re-learn and re-wire and re-construct our conceptions of things. I know we can be aware and constantly remind ourselves to be kind to person #1, us. I know where it starts - with self-love. Simple, as I said.
But so much work and the edifice seems to crumble so easily sometimes.

This does feel like a huge step back for me and I am sad to post this here. Sad because, dammit, I want to be moving forward and glowing with love and positivity and to help others.  I feel something like guilt for not being that thing in this community and in my off-line life.

And that's kind of it. The pressure I put on myself to be and show how brilliant, or even just good enough, everything can be. My long thinking process on vulnerability in another thread, truth blurting, looking at my values - all of it - is good and useful, but I'm bummed out that the process is not linear. I know it's not - I know that in my head - but the feeling of disappointment of that truth is a tough one.

It's the work that discourages me. The constant going back and having to shore up the foundations. It's just never-ending. I don't seem to have figured out how to make them more solid and reliable. Or else I don't do the basics of maintenance all the time.

What do you guys do, or how do you figure it, if this kind of thing resonates either now or in the past?

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY VITAMINC:   

Sounds like you could use a hug    I think many of us define ourselves by a romantic relationship, a long-time job and other various relationships.  I think if we haven't adequately defined ourselves separately, we have work to do when there is a breakup in a relationship, a job is lost or there is a death in the family.

Usually then I withdraw and the withdrawal is because of something akin to shame, I think. Shame that I am not the powerful and engaging person that most people think of me as.

I think it is a rare person that can maintain a positive persona 24/7.  Yes, some seem to have won the "brain chemistry lottery", and are stuck in happy mode.  Most of us kind of bounce back and forth, and encounter some challenging times.

It can be comforting, when you hear about famous people who have the same struggles that many of us have.  Fortune and fame don't necessarily bring you happiness. I listen to a talk radio show that has a psychology segment.  I found it interesting to hear the psychologist recently talk about her personal abandonment issues.  So even psychologists have their own issues.

A few exercises that can be helpful:
Make a list of what you like about yourself
Make daily positive affirmations
Make a list of what you are thankful for.

Partly this is ok; we all need to lean sometimes and be bolstered by others. We need a kind word or for someone to just believe in us or like us for whatever. Mainly, however, I feel this is not ok - because, in my case, the difference in the feelings of "I'm ok" and "I'm far from ok" is sometimes very deep indeed.

What are you doing for yourself?  Are you getting exercise?  Sometimes, getting involved in something new can help.  A new hobby, volunteer work (where you work with others, face-to-face), meet-ups to just enjoy a hike or adventure with some other people (not romantic).

It can be easy to just want to hide under a rock, but sometimes just faking it until we make it can work.

[VitaminC]

Dear Naughty Nibbler,

Thank you for your very sweet and smart reply. I guess I have been in need of a hug for a couple of days, yea.

I realise (again, groan) how very self-critical I am. How impatient I get with myself. In ways I would never be to a family member, friend, or random acquaintance. I know what you say about taking care of myself and faking it till I make it. That's all doable and generally how I proceed. And it mostly works quite well, except for sometimes when it suddenly doesn't.

It always catches me off guard, the sudden feeling of "eek, I can't do this, it's too much". I'm always surprised by it! And then I begin to think a little more deeply and think, yea, this is familiar, oh wait, it's the same thing as always! And then I think how little progress I've really made.

Maybe it's just accepting that feeling amazing all of the time is not actually possible. I know, no brainer, right? Maybe I need more practise and to really commit to it as a lifetime's work, since I don't seem to have won that lottery you mention 

This is the key thing anyway, for me.

Thanks again for your cheerful and thoughtful reply!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Vit. C, It's easy: suggest you start by learning to love and accept yourself, just the way you are, from which many positive benefits flow.  For example, if you love yourself, you won't allow yourself to be the object of someone's abuse.  If you accept yourself, you don't need anyone else's approval to feel good about yourself.  You are worthy and valid, and always have been, but it may take some practice to get the hang of it.

LuckyJim

[VitaminC]

Hey LuckyJim,

Thank you for that - that's about it, put very nicely and simply. Sometimes that's easy to do and other times not so much and that's when it feels like the never-ending engineering project.  Need more iron struts over here, guys! Quick, more giant nails! Aaa, the foundation is giving way, more sand, hurry!  Who's got the plans? What goes here?

Etc.

I don't really know anything about building things, except for a fascinating documentary I saw years ago about some engineering wonders of the world like the charm Dam and that crazy indoor ski slope in Dubai. But I'm using my imagination. Because sometimes it feels like fixing that pesky core is just like that - building work that never stops. The thought of which I find tiring and tiresome, sometimes.

So that's my struggle at the moment, I suppose. Just being a bit tired of finding a crack I thought I'd sealed up 3 years ago, once again needing sealant. *Sighs heavily and rolls eyes*

Either we find joy in the building work and see it as part of the beauty of the structure and like working out the puzzles as they crop up, or we figure out a simpler, more holistic, approach to it.   I think that holistic approach is what eastern philosophies excel at. I'm not sure, though, what a holistic approach to building a bridge across a valley would be. I bet there is one.  Any actual engineers out there that could help me out with this metaphor?

You're right in what you say, LuckyJim: "If you accept yourself, you don't need anyone else's approval to feel good about yourself.  You are worthy and valid, and always have been, but it may take some practice to get the hang of it."

[Naughty Nibbler]

VITAMINC:   

I revisited the link below today.  I shared it with someone else and thought you might find it helpful.  It is from a DBT Self Help Website, with a lot of information.  The specific link within the website has some interesting mental exercises that can be done to "Improve the Moment"

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/improve_the_moment_worksheet.html

[schwing]

Hi VitaminC,

Throughout this process and even in the many months that I was actually in the relationship, I was aware that the root of everything is myself.
The relationship, I would say, provided a number of things, principle among them distractions from the bits of myself I just did not want to deal with anymore

we can always find ways to avoid confronting the truths about ourselves, but I neither want to nor can right now.  I don't want to for healthy reasons: I don't want to endlessly repeat the patterns, and I can't for reasons I am less pleased with: I am just out of energy.

These are great insights.

I'd like to suggest that when you are feeling out of energy: rest and regather yourself before the next undertaking. What you are endeavoring to do is worthwhile, and best exercised with patience and diligence. You are worth this effort.

I think that as much as I am capable of and even prone to great joy and general optimism and huge energy, both physical and mental, I am also pretty fragile in this. A couple of set-backs can shake me to my core.  

Of course you will feel fragile, you are working on aspects of your foundation. If you do not occasionally feel fragile, then you are not digging deep enough. After all you are "confronting the truths" about yourself, truths that you were willing to endure a BPD relationship in order to avoid facing.

Usually then I withdraw and the withdrawal is because of something akin to shame, I think. Shame that I am not the powerful and engaging person that most people think of me as.

You are powerful and engaging. But you can also be vulnerable and withdrawn. There will be a different characteristic to each season of your growth. You are not supposed to be anything besides yourself, regardless of other people's notions.

Partly this is ok; we all need to lean sometimes and be bolstered by others. We need a kind word or for someone to just believe in us or like us for whatever. Mainly, however, I feel this is not ok - because, in my case, the difference in the feelings of "I'm ok" and "I'm far from ok" is sometimes very deep indeed.

I think your wounds are still relatively fresh. It is ok to take a slower pace at times. There is no hurry. The journey is perhaps more meaningful than the destination.

I know what I need to do, I know what is at the core - a lack of love for and acceptance of myself. It's pretty simple.

Knowing something intellectually is very different from knowing it at an emotional level. This is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Just because something is simple, does not mean it is not also difficult. Practice makes perfect.

Can I meditate my way to that feeling of connection with myself?

Meditation is just a word for the training of your mind. You can train your mind to do many things. Somethings may be more useful in your endeavor than other things. Learning to still the mind is a good lesson.  I don't think it's an easy exercise to cultivate and sustain any mind set that has not also been greatly practiced. Love and acceptance of oneself is a very valuable meditation. And a vessel must be emptied before it can be filled.

"you are stumbling through the same landscape, wandering lost, for many years. You don't have a map and when you get one into your hands, you don't know how to read it or else mislay it when you meet in a bear in the woods and have to run for your life. Then you're scrambled up a tree and the bear goes away, but you're there having lost your backpack and the poxy map and have to start from scratch".  

(I don't know why I developed that into a camping type metaphor - I don't even own a backpack and am a lousy camper)

Maybe because you feel like you are in an undiscovered country?

How can I stop losing the map? How can I learn to read it and incorporate new things into it? How can I not lose faith in the map, or the journey, or my ability to either get somewhere, finally, or just realise that the journey is maybe the thing - maybe that's all we have and that's as "good" as it gets?

When you feel lost. Look for what seems familiar and safe. This is not the time to gauge your progress. Unless you really do feel that you are clearly going in the wrong direction.  Judge your progress during the times when you do not feel lost; how do you feel then?

When you feel vulnerable, focus on love and acceptance of yourself. So you are lost for the moment. That moment will pass. And at another time you may re-find your bearings and move on.

This does feel like a huge step back for me and I am sad to post this here. Sad because, dammit, I want to be moving forward and glowing with love and positivity and to help others.  I feel something like guilt for not being that thing in this community and in my off-line life.

I'm bummed out that the process is not linear. I know it's not - I know that in my head - but the feeling of disappointment of that truth is a tough one.

I think the priority of your endeavor, your recovery is more important than some other responsibilities. You are here, first and foremost, as a member of this community. And I believe we often urge our community members to take care of themselves firstly, as much as can be done.

I think the antidote to that guilt you feel is love and acceptance of yourself.

The process is not linear. I think it's more like a dance. Some times it feels like you are just going in circles, then you realize it's just a waltz.

The pressure I put on myself to be and show how brilliant, or even just good enough, everything can be.

No pressure. Love and acceptance.

It's the work that discourages me. The constant going back and having to shore up the foundations. It's just never-ending. I don't seem to have figured out how to make them more solid and reliable. Or else I don't do the basics of maintenance all the time.

The work can be discouraging until you begin to see the fruits of your labor. Perhaps it's never-ending, but it does get easier. With practice. Persistence. Patience. And diligence. I've run out of space to write. Best,S

[VitaminC]

A whole lot of wisdom there, schwing. Thank you very much.

On way to work, but wanted to thank you. I'm going to re- read this post a few times, that I'm sure of!

[woundedPhoenix]

Hey VitaminC,

I can feel your frustration in this process, it seems to be somewhat out of our control, and holds us back to get ourt 'old life' back.

Probably prior to our BPD we were rushing through life as seemingly strong and always busy busy persons, going from one experience to the next providing what seemed to be a fullfilling life.

And then our BPD r/s kind of put a maelstrom effect on it, we were spinning wildly in the beginning before being sucked in a downward spiral to end up in a deep and dark place.

Could it just be that we always had problems with being centered on ourselves, that we in the past just always created more and more extreme distractions for ourselves to avoid exactly the type of core work that we have no option but to address now?

Probably it is one of the key breakthroughs to realise that the way we have been going through life before was filled with avoidance, that we may have been running from ourselves or certain inner feelings and perceptions for a long time already.

We have always been looking for healing outside of ourselves, while it can only happen from within.

And that we have trouble loosing control and trust this internal process?

[VitaminC]

Hey VitaminC,
I can feel your frustration in this process

Yes, I am frustrated. And impatient. They go together well

Could it just be that we always had problems with being centered on ourselves, that we in the past just always created more and more extreme distractions for ourselves to avoid exactly the type of core work that we have no option but to address now?

Absolutely yes to both. This dark and empty place I have driven myself to, deliberately and knowingly for the most part, during the long "bad times" of the relationship. I knew what I was doing, it felt self-destructive but I knew there was more to it than that.  I knew that I was circling closer to something at the center of it all and that I wanted to confront it and leave myself no way out.

So here I am. I have arrived. At a familiar place, I've been here before, and I can see very clearly how what I've previously done to get out of here in a hurry (Taxi!) is not something I either want to do or feel capable of doing. I can't just start another round of distractions. They would feel empty, even if I had the energy for them. I would see through my own tricks.

Probably it is one of the key breakthroughs to realise that the way we have been going through life before was filled with avoidance, that we may have been running from ourselves or certain inner feelings and perceptions for a long time already.

This is true.

We have always been looking for healing outside of ourselves, while it can only happen from within.

And that we have trouble loosing control and trust this internal process?

Absolutely. Everyone here is saying the same thing. Hell, I've said it myself to others and knew what I meant and meant it. And yet, when I stand before my own mountain to scale, I am looking up at it and thinking "oh, no, it's too big".

I used to have this belief, kind of a magical one that was sort of cute in it's childlikeness, a feeling I was protected by some kind of fairy dust ( I know, right?). I just believed that I'd always come out ok and someone or something would 'rescue' me.  I'm not sure who or what did at times, but I managed to hang on to that kind of optimistic way of being in the world.

Maybe I always knew it was a bit fake or delusional or absolving myself of responsibility. I WANT to be responsible for myself. I really want to take care of the different things in my life and know what I'm doing and have a sense of purpose and believe in the things that matter to me. Enough to see them through. To have some staying power. To not need the applause so much.

And I have to admit that when I feel like this, support is less valuable to me than applause in my life generally. I think I am going to admit what I fear to admit, even though it's possibly obvious to everyone else already, and that is that I have some tendencies, some of the make-up, of a narcissist. EEk! I've said a bad word.

Don't hate me! I swear I am capable of such love.

[VitaminC]

Oh dear, I feel like I've outed myself.
And that my membership here will be summarily withdrawn.
"Get out of here you lousy narcissist! We don't like your kind around here. Shoo!"

[schwing]

Hi VitaminC,

I used to have this belief, kind of a magical one that was sort of cute in it's childlikeness, a feeling I was protected by some kind of fairy dust ( I know, right?). I just believed that I'd always come out ok and someone or something would 'rescue' me.  I'm not sure who or what did at times, but I managed to hang on to that kind of optimistic way of being in the world.

I have had this experience also. I always thought that if I met the right woman, she would make me whole. And in my way of thinking, the only way this would work or be fair, is if I rescued her also. This belief was one of my ways of avoiding to take care of my own issues -- I thought that my only issues came from the lack of a girlfriend. While I was in my BPD relationship, I had a massive cognitive dissonance: I was convinced I should be happy, but was not.  That was a major bubble that needed to burst.

Maybe I always knew it was a bit fake or delusional or absolving myself of responsibility. I WANT to be responsible for myself. I really want to take care of the different things in my life and know what I'm doing and have a sense of purpose and believe in the things that matter to me. Enough to see them through. To have some staying power. To not need the applause so much.

Maybe you are like me; I depended on the validation and approval of others because I was conditioned to depend upon the validation and approval of my parents. As a child, if I paid attention to how I felt, then I would have had to consider that some of what my parents were doing was not right (e.g. taking care of my mother's and father's emotional needs/wants) And I couldn't accept that. Not for a long time. In my mind, I had a blessed childhood; after all, I was spared all the pain and suffering that they had to endure in their childhood - to be otherwise would mean I was a thankless, selfish, spoiled child.

As adults, we are responsible for ourselves. We are responsible for and accountable to our own feelings. Maybe you find this difficult because you were taught otherwise as a child. For example, maybe you were taught to put the feelings and responsibility of others ahead of your own. As a parent, I'm trying to help my daughters navigate their own feelings in the context of their family and society; and first they need to recognize and accept their feelings -- and as their parent, I need to recognize and accept their feelings (first).  The tempering of these feelings (if necessary) comes after the validation.

I don't blame my parents for not teaching me these things (this comes only after being angry first). I see that they do not have the self-awareness. They are lost in their own issues. I wish I could help them. But for now I just manage.

And I have to admit that when I feel like this, support is less valuable to me than applause in my life generally. I think I am going to admit what I fear to admit, even though it's possibly obvious to everyone else already, and that is that I have some tendencies, some of the make-up, of a narcissist. EEk! I've said a bad word.

I don't think you should feel embarrassed to admit this. This could be an example of expressing your current needs for support. You'll need to be your own judge to determine if this need (if ever) effects you in a way that does not serve you.

That said, I am very thankful that you are serving as Advisor for this community. I believe this community is very important; it is at the fore-front of fostering public awareness/knowledge of issues that greatly impact a large portion of our society. I believe that many of our society's woes are a (direct and indirect) result of the expression of these issues.

I am also glad that you are making the effort to heal what I think are some of the wounds of your past. I don't think what you are doing is easy. If it were easy, it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. This is worth the effort. I'm proud of you. I think you should be proud of yourself. Again, it's not going to be easy. But I promise you, it will get easier.  One way of looking at it, is you are going to re-parent a part of yourself that didn't get quite what you needed. And you mustn't underestimate the necessity and importance of being a parent.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[VitaminC]

Thank you for not posting this guy   in response to me.

I always thought that if I met the right woman, she would make me whole. And in my way of thinking, the only way this would work or be fair, is if I rescued her also. This belief was one of my ways of avoiding to take care of my own issues -- I thought that my only issues came from the lack of a girlfriend.

Yes, we can have such huge expectations of relationships. The key to having any kind of one, whether with friends or family or partners, is being aware of those expectations and how they play out, right? I tend to think of myself as independent and capable, until I'm in one. And only then do I begin to see that how I take care of someone, how I share of myself, how I express my needs, and how I expect those things to be acknowledged and reciprocated is in equal measure motivated by genuine selflessness and also a deep desire (need?) to be taken care of. I resent my own needs - and so end up expressing them badly. Bit of work to be done there for sure.

1) identify need
2) see all the different ways it could be filled
3) distinguish between needs and wants
4) decide which needs I ought to be filling myself and which are reasonable to expect a relationship to fulfill

I'm gonna say I'm at stage one there.  

For example, maybe you were taught to put the feelings and responsibility of others ahead of your own.

I was taught, or I learned, or assumed that that was the best way. Whichever thing happened, yes, that is probably the truth of it. I have often thought this before: I became, for a variety of reasons, the person in my family that somehow ended up with a lot of responsibility for others. I did not have anyone I could turn to for support when I needed it, and never learned to ask for it and am only now, in the last few years, learning to do that and to begin to think that it's ok to ask for help or need it at all.

Hence my negative self-judgement when I am not performing the way I want to. I very easily forget that I've learned it's ok to ask for help.   I never think others are not capable or ok for asking for help, on the contrary, I admire people for it - whether I am the one being asked or not (so it's not that I get to parachute in and sort things out). I just think there's something really beautiful about people saying "I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do".  Usually my heart just swells up for them - kind of like they are a deep deep pool and really clear all the way to the bottom and it's a precious thing to be allowed to see it.  

Obvious question: why don't I give this to myself? This is one to think on.
Somewhere along the way I learned that my own needs are ugly; just having them is something to be ashamed of. It's not safe. It's certainly not "interesting" or like the poetry I see in other's expressions of their needs or sadness or whatever. So other people get to make poetry and I get to write doggerels.
Boy, am I unfair to myself or what.

My own very rarely acknowledged needs make me kind of ashamed to admit to them. Even the use of the word "admit" - it's hard to admit. It's all there, isn't it? Admission is something I wring from myself with a kind of violence almost. I hate it, having to admit that I do not have a clue sometimes and that I am floundering.  Oh yea, there was a long discussion about vulnerability.    I just keep circling the same two or three things. I've got to pin these little buggers down. And what? Love them into non-existence. Smother them with my love.  

I don't think you should feel embarrassed to admit this. This could be an example of expressing your current needs for support.

Thank you for saying that. I am more than embarrassed, schwing. I expect repercussions! Isn't that mad?
After I wrote my earlier post, I burst into tears, the kind I know come from my heart, because I thought "I'm a monster!". The tears surprised me.  But cleared my head too
If I was a cartoon dog, I would be doing a bad thing in one panel, and cowering expecting a smack of a weekend edition of a broadsheet newspaper in the next.

I guess I need support, yes. But it's really more a sense of having to come clean, to confess. I can't live a lie  - (we need a drama queen emoticon).

_---_

I confess that I feel weak and kind of crappy in my core.
I confess that I am seeking answers.
I confess that I have wanted a magic solution and believed in its existence.
I confess that I have sought the answers in book-learnin' and in the insights of others.
I confess that I have, sometimes with awareness and sometimes without, sought the answers in my partners and their way of being in the world.
I confess that I have fed my need for validation with sometimes empty applause, by encouraging the admiration and even awe of those that fell for me.
I confess that eventually their awe would grate on my nerves and I would begin to feel contempt for them.
I confess I got hooked on that powerful drug with my BPD partner and when that began to wane, I panicked like never before.
I confess I chased it, partly because I wanted it back but mainly because I knew I wouldn't get it and that I had to learn something really important from the chase of it.  

_---_

That's all I can confess to at the moment. There's more, but I haven't figured it out yet.

Btw, I have read here how the BPD/NPD mix is a particularly volatile one and leaves some really juicy chaos behind for both parties.  Reminder to self: it's a spectrum, man, we're just talking about a spectrum.

One way of looking at it, is you are going to re-parent a part of yourself that didn't get quite what you needed. And you mustn't underestimate the necessity and importance of being a parent.

Good way of thinking of it.  I know you speak as a father, and you sound like a good one.  Thank you.


  Ms. Nibbler, thank you for coming back to post that link. I have the site open, it looks like a real treasure trove of material there!

[schwing]

Hi VitaminC,

Yes, we can have such huge expectations of relationships. The key to having any kind of one, whether with friends or family or partners, is being aware of those expectations and how they play out, right? I tend to think of myself as independent and capable, until I'm in one. And only then do I begin to see that how I take care of someone, how I share of myself, how I express my needs, and how I expect those things to be acknowledged and reciprocated is in equal measure motivated by genuine selflessness and also a deep desire (need?) to be taken care of. I resent my own needs - and so end up expressing them badly. Bit of work to be done there for sure.

I wonder if you might be in a habit of denying your needs when you are not in a relationship (I've done that). And when you are in a relationship, that is when you feel (or allow yourself to feel) your needs more clearly.  I would consider using the context of being in a relationship as a means to get in touch with your needs, but with the goal of learning how to meet the majority of your needs within yourself.  In truth, our needs are a bit different when in relationships, but they should not be profoundly different.

The danger of not becoming aware of and meeting the majority of our own needs is that when we are in a relationship, we might feel that it is the responsibility of our partner to address (the majority of) our needs. And this is a mistake: our feelings/needs are no more their responsibility, than their feelings/needs ours.  After all, if we do not know how to make/keep ourselves happy, how can we expect someone else to be able to do so?

I never think others are not capable or ok for asking for help, on the contrary, I admire people for it - whether I am the one being asked or not (so it's not that I get to parachute in and sort things out). I just think there's something really beautiful about people saying "I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do".  Usually my heart just swells up for them - kind of like they are a deep deep pool and really clear all the way to the bottom and it's a precious thing to be allowed to see it.  

Obvious question: why don't I give this to myself? This is one to think on.

Perhaps it is self-judgement? You hold yourself to a higher standard than you hold others?

The next time you feel like you are becoming aware of a need or want, or any emotion that also triggers a negative, self-judgmental resent or distain, check yourself. Tell yourself, this is how you feel/need and that is alright. It is better than alright, it is beautiful; and it must be honored. A movie scene comes to my mind: in "Good Will Hunting" when Robin Williams' character is telling Matt Damon's character that "It's not your fault." You keep telling yourself the antithesis of your self-critical internal dialogue until you get a release of emotions. It won't always happen; you won't always be able to reach that part of yourself. But when you do, make the most of it.

Thank you for saying that. I am more than embarrassed, schwing. I expect repercussions! Isn't that mad?
After I wrote my earlier post, I burst into tears, the kind I know come from my heart, because I thought "I'm a monster!". The tears surprised me.  But cleared my head too

A release more or less like the one described here.

Somewhere along the way I learned that my own needs are ugly; just having them is something to be ashamed of. It's not safe. It's certainly not "interesting" or like the poetry I see in other's expressions of their needs or sadness or whatever. So other people get to make poetry and I get to write doggerels.
Boy, am I unfair to myself or what.

Yes, unfair. But I don't think that self-critical dialogue belongs to you; rather I believe you can let go of that unhelpful dialogue and replace it with one that will help you.

One possible exercise is to use a unfamiliar creative outlet as a means to draw out the self-critical dialogue and practice replacing it with a new internal dialogue.

I confess that I feel weak and kind of crappy in my core.
I confess that I am seeking answers.
I confess that I have wanted a magic solution and believed in its existence.
I confess that I have sought the answers in book-learnin' and in the insights of others.
I confess that I have, sometimes with awareness and sometimes without, sought the answers in my partners and their way of being in the world.
I confess that I have fed my need for validation with sometimes empty applause, by encouraging the admiration and even awe of those that fell for me.
I confess that eventually their awe would grate on my nerves and I would begin to feel contempt for them.
I confess I got hooked on that powerful drug with my BPD partner and when that began to wane, I panicked like never before.
I confess I chased it, partly because I wanted it back but mainly because I knew I wouldn't get it and that I had to learn something really important from the chase of it.  

I think we all have an aspect of narcissism within us. And I think it is helpful to understand the processes that happen for people with narcissistic personality disorder (just like it is helpful with pwBPD). We might not have the same depth of injury that pwNPD/BPD have but we can all exhibit similar behaviors for more or less the same reasons.

PwNPD, as I understand it, like pwBPD, create a "false" self with which they use to hide or supplant their authentic self.  They do so as a way to deny/displace/avoid facing the injuries of their authentic selves. And for pwNPD, they "puff up" their false self such as with grandiose ideas (basically seeking approval and validation), and their pain is soothed for a time. In a way I imagine this is a little like imagining what it might look like to feel "right," "perfect," "fulfilled" even when presently we feel pretty vulnerable. And this needn't necessarily be a bad exercise, as long as this behavior doesn't displace the need to heal and do what we need in order to heal.

However, you can see how after seeking approval and validation from others using good deeds (et al), and after we are given this approval and validation, we might begin to feel contempt for them. Because we might think that they are not praising us, but rather our actions. They are not validating our authentic self but rather the a puffed up self that we present.

So don't feel embarrassed to write about the times when you feel weak and crappy. I (for one) hear you, accept that you feel this way, as I have felt and continue to feel so from time to time.  And speaking as someone who believes that I have been where I currently see you are, believe me when I tell you that it does get easier.  You will feel better.  So long as you continue to take care of yourself well. Without judgement. With compassion.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[VitaminC]

I wonder if you might be in a habit of denying your needs when you are not in a relationship (I've done that). And when you are in a relationship, that is when you feel (or allow yourself to feel) your needs more clearly.  I would consider using the context of being in a relationship as a means to get in touch with your needs, but with the goal of learning how to meet the majority of your needs within yourself.  In truth, our needs are a bit different when in relationships, but they should not be profoundly different.

This is veeeery good.   
That's on my thinking list for the next week.

The danger of not becoming aware of and meeting the majority of our own needs is that when we are in a relationship, we might feel that it is the responsibility of our partner to address (the majority of) our needs.

Of course! It's so obvious now that you've said it, and I've applied it to my situation.

The next time you feel like you are becoming aware of a need or want, or any emotion that also triggers a negative, self-judgmental resent or distain, check yourself. Tell yourself, this is how you feel/need and that is alright. It is better than alright, it is beautiful; and it must be honored.

You keep telling yourself the antithesis of your self-critical internal dialogue until you get a release of emotions. It won't always happen; you won't always be able to reach that part of yourself. But when you do, make the most of it.

Need to slow down the process of judging to see what I'm doing, so I can interrupt it. BUt I can do that, yes. Excellent.

One possible exercise is to use a unfamiliar creative outlet as a means to draw out the self-critical dialogue and practice replacing it with a new internal dialogue.

Can you say more about this? I don't understand.

Because we might think that they are not praising us, but rather our actions. They are not validating our authentic self but rather the a puffed up self that we present.

Yes.

Thank you, schwing.

[schwing]

One possible exercise is to use a unfamiliar creative outlet as a means to draw out the self-critical dialogue and practice replacing it with a new internal dialogue.

Can you say more about this? I don't understand.

The intent of this exercise is to do something unfamiliar but possibly enjoyable; basically you want to do something new and perhaps fun.  Something that allows you to also be creative.  Think activities for young kids: painting, pottery, music, dance, sporty activities, etc...

Chances are you already have some skills at something creative. Don't do that. You want something with which you don't already have a familiar approach. And the point is, let yourself explore and see how inclined you are to self-criticize during this exercise.

Questions you can ask yourself: do you feel silly? why?  Because you are an adult? Why cannot adults learn/explore/try something new? Do you allow yourself to fail? (i.e. attempt to do something but it comes out differently).  Does this internal dialogue change when you are attempting to creatively exercise in a more public context?  Do you need to "act" in a manner that some part of you (i.e. internal critic) deems "appropriate"? Again, this is something you've never done before and only had an idea that perhaps you might enjoy it. Do you have an internal dialogue that tries to shut down that exploration?

If you can allow yourself to try something unfamiliar, to make silly mistakes without self-judgement, to perhaps even find enjoyment in something you had not expected to find, and do so with encouraging self dialogue... .then you can endeavor to do some other things which may trigger even more self-criticism, such as dating outside of familiar (and perhaps unhealthy) dynamics.

Does this help?

[VitaminC]

Chances are you already have some skills at something creative. Don't do that. You want something with which you don't already have a familiar approach.

What if you're just brilliant at everything?

 

Questions you can ask yourself: do you feel silly? why?  Because you are an adult? Why cannot adults learn/explore/try something new? Do you allow yourself to fail? (i.e. attempt to do something but it comes out differently).  Does this internal dialogue change when you are attempting to creatively exercise in a more public context?  Do you need to "act" in a manner that some part of you (i.e. internal critic) deems "appropriate"? Again, this is something you've never done before and only had an idea that perhaps you might enjoy it. Do you have an internal dialogue that tries to shut down that exploration?

If you can allow yourself to try something unfamiliar, to make silly mistakes without self-judgement, to perhaps even find enjoyment in something you had not expected to find, and do so with encouraging self dialogue... .then you can endeavor to do some other things which may trigger even more self-criticism, such as dating outside of familiar (and perhaps unhealthy) dynamics.

Does this help?

oo, you're a hard taskmaster. 
I don't like not being good at things.

It's not so much that I feel silly, it's that I feel a failure!

And yes, I do see how that's a problem and why I need to get better at being not amazing at everything I turn my hand to. And sometimes being downright crap. I did try a pottery crafty thing recently, as a matter of fact. I sucked at it. And while my friends around me got on with sculpting their misshapen little figurines, I sat grumpily smoking a fag. I got grumpy! I don't recall feeling bad or sad or inadequate or like a child or anything specific, other than pure grumpiness. It was not something I particularly cared about even before we started, but it still made me grumpy.

And that is my usual reaction, actually. I'm not grumpy at anyone else for enjoying themselves or whatever, just in a bad mood with myself.

How do I unravel this feeling? I actually don't know. It's so instant and then so all-encompassing. Completely instinctive. Primitive even, I would say.

[schwing]

I don't like not being good at things.

It's not so much that I feel silly, it's that I feel a failure!

Even the things that you are currently good at, at one time, you were not good at it. Were you motivated to improve with encouragement or something else?

Look into *WHY* you feel like a failure.

Consider that you are trying to reshape the way you relate to yourself and future significant others. You *will* (must) be interacting in new ways, in ways that you will not be terribly good at initially.  You *cannot* approach these changes while feeling like a "failure" just because they are not yet familiar to you.

And that is my usual reaction, actually. I'm not grumpy at anyone else for enjoying themselves or whatever, just in a bad mood with myself.

I think you are being grumpy *at* yourself.  I think you are disappointed with yourself and that part of you which feels deeply the disappointment might be injured to the point that it has shut down, like a battered puppy. You will need to revive that part of yourself. Patience, diligence.

How do I unravel this feeling? I actually don't know. It's so instant and then so all-encompassing. Completely instinctive. Primitive even, I would say.

You'll have to experiment.

Maybe start somewhere not so public so you can be still and perhaps less guarded with your own thoughts. When you are feeling "grumpy" tell yourself that you are loved and cherished. That your status as a loved and cherished person is not changed just because you are not excellent at doing something new, or anything for that matter (even though you are brilliant at a great deal of things).

There are some words that will get you. I don't know exactly which words. But I suspect that some part of you feels that you do not deserve, you are not cherished, unless... .you need to do away with this "unless" requirement.

All your gifts and talents do improve your value.  But even if they were all stripped away, you are still of great value and deserve to be loved.

[VitaminC]

Even the things that you are currently good at, at one time, you were not good at it. Were you motivated to improve with encouragement or something else?

What motivates me is approval. A stated belief that I am "made" for this thing.  

If I'm not great at it, then I am a failure.

Here's a thing:
I've started thinking about it in terms of walking into the discomfort. When I want to learn something and think I will find it hard, I try to walk into that feeling and notice my excitement (old fashioned use of word, meaning emotionally stirred up) and then think i) oh, I feel quite alive, and ii) it's good to feel alive!

It's working, and was kind of a natural realisation, but coming back to this post has made me think how this is a steep learning curve for me, because of this:  

Look into *WHY* you feel like a failure.

Because, when I was a child, the attention I got was for being good at something. Sparkly, funny, clever. The rest of the time I think I felt invisible, when I wasn't being chastised for being moody or for having a smart mouth.

So, to be seen at all I had to impress the adults with my clever ways. Not only that, but it had to be surprising. If there was any evidence of hard work, no one would be impressed; hard work was boring and not something that got spontaneous and delighted applause. So I learned to work in secret.

Trying to become good or better at something in secret meant I couldn't really ask for help, and so would become overwhelmed at how much there was to learn. I became more efficient and focused on things I could master more easily and then surprise everyone with.

Effort was not praised, not noted, and just not on the scale at all. I was i) invisible, ii) moody or otherwise annoying, or iii) brilliant. Those seemed, to me, to be the possibilities.

And that is how come I have spent years wondering if I'm lazy or what my problem is; why I have never really reached my potential, given my intelligence and education.  The connection between brilliance and effort was something I learned about much later, but it stayed a concept for me, not internalised at all.

I didn't like to be seen "trying hard", I didn't like for that to be noticed or commented upon, even kindly as teachers and other people like that would occasionally do. I would brush it off in derision. If it was something I didn't particularly care about, some part of me would call the commenter an idiot (quietly, to myself). If it was something I cared about, it was harder to know what to do with such a comment.
There were few enough people in my life whom I respected enough to allow that comment through in any kind of a positive way.  

"Trying" was for losers.  :)o you have the saying "God loves a trier" stateside? It's uttered in a gently pitying manner where I make my home.  

[As I grew, a gulf between what I considered worth being good at and what my parents considered worthwhile began to appear. I wanted, needed, to please them, but also increasingly felt myself moving in a different direction. In our community of friends and neighbours, there were no other kids or young adults who seemed to question things as much or the way that I did. They appeared happier with their parents' choices and lifestyles and happier to fit in. My curiosity about everything seemed bigger and I was perpetually dissatisfied with the options my family saw as normal. I wavered between thinking I was 'special' and that there was something wrong with me.]

Ok. I think these are good insights, because I have that slightly dizzy feeling I get when I've realised something big and true.  I can't quite connect it all up yet - have to stay with this for a day or two and see how my lovely brain fares.

Thank you for reading!  

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Vit. C, In my view, relying on approval from others is an unreliable way to live.  I strive to get my self-esteem from within.  Am I being authentic and true to myself?  If so, that's all the approval that I need.  LJ

[VitaminC]

Yes, Lucky Jim, you're quite right, I know that (now). But working out exactly how to work that out so that I genuinely feel that way, and don't just say the words to myself, is what I have to do.  If it was as straightforward for me as that, hell, I'd be flipping perfect! 

[schwing]

Look into *WHY* you feel like a failure.

Because, when I was a child, the attention I got was for being good at something. Sparkly, funny, clever. The rest of the time I think I felt invisible, when I wasn't being chastised for being moody or for having a smart mouth.

Effort was not praised, not noted, and just not on the scale at all. I was i) invisible, ii) moody or otherwise annoying, or iii) brilliant. Those seemed, to me, to be the possibilities.

Then as I understand it, you chose to be brilliant in order to avoid the pain of having been "invisible" and "moody/annoying" to your parents. I see that as a type of neglect and slight denigration. It is painful to be "invisible" to your parents when you should be cherished simply because you are (their child). I imagine your "moody" and "annoying" behaviors were appropriate expressions of this treatment, because you knew something wasn't right about being "invisible" unless you did something surprisingly brilliant.

You are not a trained (flying) monkey.

Your accomplishments are not for your parents' pleasure. And until you find a way to heal the wounds from having been so treated, you will find it difficult to truly appreciate your own brilliance. You are valuable and cherished simply for being.

And that is how come I have spent years wondering if I'm lazy or what my problem is; why I have never really reached my potential, given my intelligence and education.  The connection between brilliance and effort was something I learned about much later, but it stayed a concept for me, not internalised at all.

My guess is, the longer you spend displacing the neglected side of your personae (the side you feel is "lazy" or problematic), the worse you will feel in spite of completing goals worthy of your intelligence and education.  Reconsider if it is truly "approval" you are seeking and not the avoidance of whatever it is you feel you'll be (self-)labeled if you do not win approval.

I didn't like to be seen "trying hard", I didn't like for that to be noticed or commented upon, even kindly as teachers and other people like that would occasionally do. I would brush it off in derision. If it was something I didn't particularly care about, some part of me would call the commenter an idiot (quietly, to myself). If it was something I cared about, it was harder to know what to do with such a comment.
There were few enough people in my life whom I respected enough to allow that comment through in any kind of a positive way.

"Trying" was for losers.  :)o you have the saying "God loves a trier" stateside? It's uttered in a gently pitying manner where I make my home.

If "trying is for losers" how do you cultivate excellence and persistence in those who do not shine as brightly?

Are there not endeavors we must undertake without the judgement of others?  Will there always be someone around to tell you if you are brilliant or else trying too hard?

How do we know if we are happy?  Are we happy if everyone around simply agrees that we are indeed happy?  And what if you are not?

My sister was engaged to an impressive man for more than a few years. And every once in a while, in tears, she'd confide in me that she had strong reservations about marrying him.  To me, she was clearly unhappy. Her relationship, as hard as they would try, left her wanting and she was torn. She thought that if she broke up with him, that she might be making an awful mistake. Because all of their friends and family thought they were a "perfect" couple. She said "What if I really am happy and just don't know it?" And I thought that this was absurd. Do your friends and family, know better than you, what will make you happy in marriage?  I don't think so. And I told her I didn't think she should marry the chap.

I could be wrong about this but consider that perhaps you are dealing with a large cognitive dissonance. (1) You have a suspicion that if you do not change your approach in courtship, you may end up in a relationship that plays out poorly.  But (2) if you don't get in a relationship that doesn't start off easy, brilliant, and (thus) worthy of approval, then you are trying too hard (does this make you a loser?).

And how can you change your approach if you are not given the opportunities to try to figure out what new approaches work for you?  How can you become brilliant, if you are not allowed to practice and make mistakes?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Vit. C, Well, we're all human and it takes time to work this stuff out, but for me the process started when I came to see that it was important to love myself, and to accept myself just the way I am.  If you start from the premise that you are worthy and valid already, and always were, then there is no particular reason to seek approval from someone else because you've already approved yourself, from within.  Took me a while to get the hang of this line of thinking because I was raised to be an over-achiever, which caused me to define myself by outside markers of achievement, e.g., the A's on my report card, the first place trophies, etc.  Yet marriage to, and subsequent divorce from, a pwBPD caused me to rethink how I get my self-esteem after nearly destroying myself emotionally, financially and physically in a BPD marriage.  Anyway, that's how I came to source my self-worth from within.

LuckyJim

[VitaminC]

Then as I understand it, you chose to be brilliant in order to avoid the pain of having been "invisible" and "moody/annoying" to your parents. I see that as a type of neglect and slight denigration.

Sure. They were slightly different times and my parents were young. Plus they were a product of their own upbringings etc etc. But yes, it felt denigrating and I was angry for years, without really understanding why.

It is painful to be "invisible" to your parents when you should be cherished simply because you are (their child). I imagine your "moody" and "annoying" behaviors were appropriate expressions of this treatment, because you knew something wasn't right about being "invisible" unless you did something surprisingly brilliant.

Again, yes, most probably. I can see it in kids now, how so often acting out or being moody is a reaction to some messages they are getting, which spawns more of the non-validating parental messages, which leads to further acting out.  It's so clear sometimes, when we stand on the sidelines.  And the parents can be trying really hard and still failing badly to provide what their child needs.

You are not a trained (flying) monkey.

No, I'm not. And it's true that for years I felt a pressure to be 'together' and cheerful, amusing even, to lighten up and relax the often tense family dynamic. I've said it often before that for most of my life I never felt there was anyone wiser and more competent than me on whom I could occasionally lean. There just wasn't.   I see how independent this has made me outwardly and a few layers down, but somewhere near the centre of me, I am looking for someone to be both strong enough for me and impressed by my own strength.   It's a big, conflicted, ask. And that is a big issue for me, in terms of potential relationships.

... .until you find a way to heal the wounds from having been so treated, you will find it difficult to truly appreciate your own brilliance. You are valuable and cherished simply for being.

That's exactly what I have to figure out. How to heal that. I do not accept it when I am good at something, not really. My most recent academic achievement is as nothing to me. When I learned of it, I thought, 'yes, great, but I could have done better'. That's not the first time it's happened.  The applause must be loud and wild, and then I am sated. But when it dies down and the crowds go home and the theater lights begin to be turned off, I slowly empty out.  

My guess is, the longer you spend displacing the neglected side of your personae (the side you feel is "lazy" or problematic), the worse you will feel in spite of completing goals worthy of your intelligence and education.  Reconsider if it is truly "approval" you are seeking and not the avoidance of whatever it is you feel you'll be (self-)labeled if you do not win approval.

I keep having to read this over. I'm having trouble understanding. Could you say more on this?

If "trying is for losers" how do you cultivate excellence and persistence in those who do not shine as brightly?

I know! I believe this applies for everyone else, just not me.  
I'm always amazed when I meet people with far more challenges than I have, who are cheerfully persisting and taking pleasure in every bit of progress. I wonder where on earth they get their belief from, their sense of purpose, their sense of being ok.

Are there not endeavors we must undertake without the judgement of others?  Will there always be someone around to tell you if you are brilliant or else trying too hard?

How do we know if we are happy?  Are we happy if everyone around simply agrees that we are indeed happy?  And what if you are not?

Absolutely. I know that. I know it's not logical and doesn't add up.

I could be wrong about this but consider that perhaps you are dealing with a large cognitive dissonance. (1) You have a suspicion that if you do not change your approach in courtship, you may end up in a relationship that plays out poorly.  But (2) if you don't get in a relationship that doesn't start off easy, brilliant, and (thus) worthy of approval, then you are trying too hard (does this make you a loser?).

This reasoning is too fast for me, schwing.  
I can't imagine a relationship right now - not one where I'm not seeking the answers I never got, but ultimately have anyway and have to and can give myself.  This is no place to operate from vis a vis another human.
 
You're right about the cognitive dissonance. But right now I'm stuck on those old wounds and thinking about how that can be healed.  I feel like I have to nail it - exactly what the dissonance is, the different notes and tones, and get that very clear without all the attendant and confusing contextualising details.

I'm pretty sure all my mechanisms stem from my youngest days and feeling that the only way to be "good enough" was to perform and delight the grown-ups.  

I was a sensitive and dreamy child with a powerful imagination and inclinations for writing and dancing that go back as far as I can remember. I can and do indulge both those things now, and have done for some years, but how different it might all have been if I'd been born into an artistic family with books and music strewn everywhere, and people coming and going, and being serious about what they loved - instead of knuckling down and tending to duties, and the children being gently encouraged and feeling a part of the big family instead of somehow isolated and wrong.  

I'm just daydreaming a little about what would have been my ideal childhood; the one that would have nourished me in the way I needed. It's the kind of life I give myself now pretty much and something I notice myself giving with such joy and love to the young daughter of my BPD ex. I'm happier than I can say that I get to continue my friendship with this 10 year old.

In a way, the facts don't matter. My family were immigrants and had to learn two new languages within 10 years - there were huge pressures on them and they did very well. Just for a little context. But it doesn't matter in the sense that a different person would have come out of all that with v different mechanisms, quite possibly and not felt lacking all their lives.

This is a very helpful thread for me - I hope one or two others too. I feel as if I've peeled back everything and now gawping at the hole in the center of me, the one I've always known is there. It feels good, clean.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Vit. C,

One approach to Healing might be to forgive yourself, to accept that you have flaws and make mistakes.  It's not selfish to practice self-forgiveness, yet often we opt instead for guilt and shame.  The way out, I suggest, is to embrace one's humanness and imperfections, which means taking responsibility for ourselves.  It leads to personal freedom and allows us to show up compassionately with others.  It takes effort to practice self-forgiveness, but it's worth it.  You might try it!

LuckyJim

[schwing]

Hi VitaminC,

My guess is, the longer you spend displacing the neglected side of your personae (the side you feel is "lazy" or problematic), the worse you will feel in spite of completing goals worthy of your intelligence and education.  Reconsider if it is truly "approval" you are seeking and not the avoidance of whatever it is you feel you'll be (self-)labeled if you do not win approval.

I keep having to read this over. I'm having trouble understanding. Could you say more on this?

My hypothesis is as follows:

(1) You have a wounded inner child. The wound is kept deep (suppressed) and only rare circumstances will draw it out (i.e. seduction by a gifted BPD individual).

(2) The wounded child is guarded by a denigrating "adult" personae. This is your inner voice that tells you that you are "lazy" or have a "problem" when you are not being sufficiently "brilliant." I imagine this is the personification of your parents behavior of not seeing you, or finding you "moody" and "annoying" when you were not surprising them with your accomplishments.

(3) Up to this point, you have depended upon "approval" as a source of respite from the pain of your wounded child (which you might not be able to consciously access).  However, the approval you seek doesn't heal your wounds. It only allows you to maintain the dynamic from your childhood which you've internalized.

If the pain from your past wounds go unhealed, or worsen (from self-neglect), the approval you seek will bring you less relief.  And at this point you might be driven to find another way to recreate the dynamic of your wounded childhood in the effort to heal this wound.

This is what drove me to consistently (unconsciously) seek women with BPD qualities.

I do not accept it when I am good at something, not really. My most recent academic achievement is as nothing to me. When I learned of it, I thought, 'yes, great, but I could have done better'. That's not the first time it's happened.  The applause must be loud and wild, and then I am sated. But when it dies down and the crowds go home and the theater lights begin to be turned off, I slowly empty out.  

What you wrote here describes point (3) somewhat. At some point no applause will be sufficiently loud or wild enough for your pain to be relieved. And you may feel depression or emptiness. Behind that depression/emptiness is the pain.

How to heal the wounded inner child is the question.

I found "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" to be a useful book.

The crux in my process has been to find a way to interact with my wounded inner child that allowed me to get in touch with my pain (this was/is difficult; I find myself to be a tough nut to crack).  I guess you could say my goal is to learn a new (and better) way to relate to myself; the old way was not working (it never did, but it kept me from falling apart as a child/teenager).

There was a time that I felt like my wounded inner child did not trust me. It wanted what it wanted and so it became my motivation for seeking destructive BPD relationships.  To relate to myself in a way that allowed me more say in these unconscious choices, I had to earn the trust.  And I did so by consistently attending to my own emotional needs, needs I was barely aware of (or denied existed). This meant (for me) taking care of myself in ways that was unfamiliar to me. It also meant shutting down the internal critic/judge who was harsh and bitter.

Raising kids have been incredibly helpful in this process. I imagine if I didn't get a handle on this, I would be very disappointed in myself as a parent. And to be honest, I'm still catching myself behaving in ways that I still need to change. I catch myself interacting with my daughters in unjustified harsh ways that have more to do with my own insecurities than with their behaviors.

I found that when my kids hit certain age ranges (right now they're 9 and 11), certain stages of development "resonated" with me and helped me become aware of issues I imagine I must have had to deal with when I was of that age.  I felt degrees of anxiety, fear, anger that felt displaced; it felt like these emotions came from somewhere outside of my present context.  This is the closest I've gotten to possible "suppressed" memories.

When you are able to interact with your wounded inner child. You heal the wounds, by being the parent you need... .to yourself.

The alternative is to find someone who recreates the parent your wounded inner child accepts and struggle to "earn" the love (or whatever it is you seek) from that parent. More often than not, this becomes an exercise of drawing water from a rock.

I'm just daydreaming a little about what would have been my ideal childhood; the one that would have nourished me in the way I needed. It's the kind of life I give myself now pretty much and something I notice myself giving with such joy and love to the young daughter of my BPD ex. I'm happier than I can say that I get to continue my friendship with this 10 year old.  

You might be experiencing a bit of this when you are interacting with your BPD ex's daughter. An approach would be to continue giving what you feel compelled to give, and direct some portion of attention that back towards yourself, to your wounded inner child.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[VitaminC]

The way out, I suggest, is to embrace one's humanness and imperfections, which means taking responsibility for ourselves.  It leads to personal freedom and allows us to show up compassionately with others.  It takes effort to practice self-forgiveness, but it's worth it.  You might try it!

Thank you, Lucky Jim. You state the truth simply. It really is as simple as that. It's a bit like a mathematical formula, isn't it, a bit like e=mc2; wonderful in it's simplicity - once you understand the individual components and their relationship to each other.  So buried in that clear statement is a world of knowledge and understanding. People like  you intuit it, people like me - when applying it to themselves - have to look closely at all the turning cogs for a really long time to figure out what each of them is doing and how that is affecting the rest of them.

[VitaminC]

My hypothesis is as follows:

(1) You have a wounded inner child. The wound is kept deep (suppressed) and only rare circumstances will draw it out (i.e. seduction by a gifted BPD individual).

... .It only allows you to maintain the dynamic from your childhood which you've internalized.

... . the approval you seek will bring you less relief.  And at this point you might be driven to find another way to recreate the dynamic of your wounded childhood in the effort to heal this wound.

This is very good. To some degree, every relationship draws this out, but you're right that the one with the pwBPD did so most effectively.

At some point no applause will be sufficiently loud or wild enough for your pain to be relieved. And you may feel depression or emptiness. Behind that depression/emptiness is the pain.

How to heal the wounded inner child is the question.

I found "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" to be a useful book.

I am getting this today.

The crux in my process has been to find a way to interact with my wounded inner child that allowed me to get in touch with my pain (this was/is difficult; I find myself to be a tough nut to crack).  

Again, 

... .And I did so by consistently attending to my own emotional needs, needs I was barely aware of (or denied existed). This meant (for me) taking care of myself in ways that was unfamiliar to me. It also meant shutting down the internal critic/judge who was harsh and bitter.

Yes, this is what needs to happen. Very good.
I'm interested to know if the internal judge can be convinced to retire from their long-held post, to hang up their robes and hand over their engraved gavel, and be replaced by someone with more compassion.

Raising kids have been incredibly helpful in this process. I imagine if I didn't get a handle on this, I would be very disappointed in myself as a parent.

Kids are so magic. Although I'm not a parent, I have a lot of kids in my life through various very long friendships - and I see the great, and difficult, jobs that my friends are doing. And also the self-questioning that the parents often engage in. It's a privilege to be close to that.

When you are able to interact with your wounded inner child. You heal the wounds, by being the parent you need... .to yourself.

Quoting this for my own benefit. I have nothing to add at this point.

The alternative is to find someone who recreates the parent your wounded inner child accepts and struggle to "earn" the love (or whatever it is you seek) from that parent. More often than not, this becomes an exercise of drawing water from a rock.

Yes. This alternative was the dynamic that developed in my BPD relationship, without a doubt. It had never happened to anything like that degree before. I was not remotely prepared.

You might be experiencing a bit of this when you are interacting with your BPD ex's daughter. An approach would be to continue giving what you feel compelled to give, and direct some portion of attention that back towards yourself, to your wounded inner child.

I'm on it, schwing.

  Thank you.

[drained1996]

Vitamin,

It's hard to even express here... .but JUST like you... .I struggle with me.  To express that reading these last few days of exchanges on this thread have resonated with me would not be justice... .it's more like an earthquake that is high on the richter scale.  Like you, I am broken unless I'm brilliant, and I lost the desire to be brilliant a long while ago.  Being brilliant only brought temporary applause... .nothing lasting, as it was then onto the next thing I was expected to accomplish with brilliance.  
Schwing has broken this down with such precision it's scary.  Our inner child needs hugs and love... .that we never really got growing up.  I can see clearly how and why I feel the way I do at times... .my difficulty lies in how to be brilliant now?  How do I brilliantly hug myself... .how do I brilliantly give myself the affirmation that just being me is good enough?  
Lucky Jim breaks this down so simply... .to get our self esteem from within.  That's my fundamental issue... .as my childhood made me feel I had to make my mother feel good in order for everything to be ok.  I was made to feel responsible for her feelings at an age where I don't even have memory.  It wasn't about me... .thus I was invisible... .unless I was brilliant (temporary applause)... .or... .I was stuck muddling through life directed by her feelings... .which rarely were positive... .and somehow that was my fault.  Shocker we fell for pwBPD right?
I hug myself a lot now... .but it only brings temporary applause.  I'm not stuck, but the 40+ years of tapes in my head of "I'm not good enough"  make my improvement feel like walking in mud at times.  I'm slowly burning those tapes though... .with the understanding that what is captured on that film... .is just a bad movie.  

[fromheeltoheal]

Whoa, meaty thread here, late to the party but I've enjoyed it and it's sparked more than a few thoughts.

I'm not a fan of terms like fixing, fixing implies broken, and believing we're never broken, in fact we're inherently perfect, exactly who we're supposed to be, is much more empowering, and can allow us to realize that although we sure can run some disempowering patterns sometimes, patterns are changeable, and they're not us, not who we are.  And who we are is who we say we are.

I had very low self esteem and self confidence when I was younger, and accordingly I looked pretty much exclusively for external validation, correlation there, the more highly we think of ourselves the more we look internally for validation, the less, the more externally.  So I got very good at being 'liked', not respected always mind you, but liked.  And it worked, that facade I'd created, different depending whom I was around, people liked me, I got the external validation I depended upon, although I never felt I was being open and pure, but hey, we use what we have and do the best we can.

Interesting though, I've always had plenty of confidence in my intellectual ability and with technical things, I'm good and I know it, and although the key is to just shift that belief to include who I am as well as what I do, we're human beings after all, not human doings, it took fumbling through a few decades to arrive at that, but I did; it goes back to what we've been discussing on other threads, values, beliefs, appropriate focus, build a solid core with the right belief system and then protect it with boundaries.  It worked.

And then my ex showed up and the wheels fell off, right back to that scared little boy, dependent again on external validation and getting nothing but external invalidation.  Yuck.  Screw this I'm out.  But moment once again; sure, we can create a rich inner landscape, create our own empowered reality so we're not dependent on external validation, but the other piece is not to tolerate external invalidation either, shore up the boundaries to keep the crap out; if you don't want what's best for me, you're gone.  Now. 

And still, even in the thick of it, I realized who I was at my core was pure and clean, but boy could the beliefs I was running on top of that, brought to the forefront by someone I was emotionally enmeshed and therefore made matter, make life suck.  Solution: we speak of our "inner child" a lot around here, and a belief I find helpful is that when we become an adult we don't replace "child" with "adult", we add adult to child; our inner child is alive and well and ready to play in that mud puddle in the middle of the path instead of b___ about it like the adult does.  And the adult we add becomes the parent to the child, and that parent is either critical or nurturing, and if it's critical, where did that crap come from?  Our parents and other early influencers most likely, but now that we're our own parent we get to question that as appropriate.  I used to screw up and the word that would pop into my head immediately was "idiot" (one of my mother's favorite words, hmmm), so I addressed that directly by imagining my mother, or my internal parent, saying "idiot" with a squeaky cartoon voice, a tiny body and a huge head, with circus music playing in the background, over and over, repetition is the mother of skill, and it worked.  Now when I screw up and that word pops in my head, my first impulse is to go "pfft, silly", no energy behind it anymore, and I can focus on the solution right away.  We're programmable.

So I was thinking about emotions too.  We experience emotions, they are not who we are.  I got another lesson in that last week, I was physically sick for a few days (that nasty burrito from the food truck, I'm sure), and my emotional state went to all those dark places, life sucked, yadda yadda, and then the following day I felt better and suddenly I'm on top of the world.  What changed?  The emotions I was experiencing, influenced by my physical state, nothing more.  I've been working on this for a while, but that was a visceral example; we are not our emotions, and if we cultivate the ability to stand off to one side of them and watch them float past, we can thank them for the message they bring and send them on their way, with our core as pristine as ever.  And another piece is having and fully associating to a compelling future, not as a goal necessarily, the goal is to relish the journey, but as a target, a beacon, something to aim for, so when we go temporarily into the muck of disempowered emotions, we can see our way out, and the emotions will pass, they always pass, it's just important to not let them leave the residue of a disempowering belief.

OK, there's my caffeinated brain dump for the morning, I look forward to other's musings... .