Seeking advice

[Dougie]

     I'm taking some advice and seeking a bit of help from others who have experienced similar roads. I have been in a relationship with a woman who has BPD for 3 months now. She didn't tell me about her diagnosis until we were together for a few weeks. A bit of backstory on me: I am a recovering alcoholic and have been sober for almost three years. As our relationship hits its lows, I feel myself slip a bit. My fear is that I will lose my sobriety if I don't find ways to effectively communicate with her. I feel like I am unable to express my feelings without it leading to some form of anger.

     I'm not the most stable person myself, so when we an argument arises, we both shut down and fail to see the others perspective. I have found myself taking ownership for a majority of our disagreements and I'm afraid if I continue to go this route, I will lose some of the ground I've already made. Arguments arise over the pettiest circumstances. For example, her rent went up a good chunk of change as her renewal notice came out. She has been pressuring me to move in with her for a few weeks now. I figured this might be best for us considering we would be forced to talk through our problems when they come up instead of one of us running away. I love this woman very much and I want to help her, I just feel like I am taking all of the responsibility when problems arise.

     Last night, I had a meltdown of my own when she packed up her bags and left my apartment. This has happened numerous times, and each time it brings me down lower. I know it's wrong, but I responded in anger and packed her bags for her. I then placed the bags outside the door and told her to "get out of my life." I feel terrible for this, I didn't mean it, the anger just became too much to keep in. She ended up waiting in the parking lot for a few minutes and came back in to see my emotional breakdown. She consoled me and told me she would never leave me. As we woke up this morning, I expressed that I was embarrassed over my actions. She was hurt that I was being "selfish" and said I was talking a lot about my feelings but failed to realize how I made her feel. Keep in mind, I spent the night apologizing for the way I had behaved and we seemed to be over the situation. As I told her, I was about to get to how I made her feel, she packed her belongings up and left again.
    
     I find myself afraid to express the way I feel and how my actions have affected her. It seems like whenever I do it results in an argument. I want to make this work, but I find myself wondering if the dynamics of our relationship are too toxic. Do any of you think there is any hope?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

That's a tough place to be Dougie. I too would be concerned about a relapse if I was in your position. In fact, I did relapse when I was in your position. It wasn't worth it.  It didn't solve or cure anything.

Many of us have found ourselves in very similar situations. If you read the threads of others on here, you'll quickly realize that you're not alone and what you are experiencing isn't unique to you.

There is always hope as long as you have hope. But, hope is just the beginning. It takes work, and a lot of it. It takes learning new ways to communicate and look at your own life. It also takes a strong person who is self-confident enough to not be effected by the hurtful things.

I don't think that moving in together at this time will have the effect that you desire. It won't force you to work anything out and not run. In fact, walking away when a conversations gets overheated is a handy tool for bringing emotions back to a manageable level, so that's not a bad thing to do. The caveat to that is that you need to take a time-out in a healthy way.

Perhaps this 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict would be a good place for you to start. There are also many other tools (a few are in the sidebar to the right) around here that will help you get through this with the best chance of success.

If you have any questions, please ask!

[Oncebitten]

Dougie


I am going to give you some tough advice.  But offer you some hope.  First off you need to make sure that you take care of you.  Your sobriety is important to you and 3 yrs is an accomplishment.  To do this you have to set some boundaries with her.  If you feel yourself getting angry and you feel that you can't deal with her in a calm fashion then you need to walk away.  Tell her in a calm voice, that you are upset and can feel yourself getting angry and step back for a while.  Be sure to explain to her that you are simply stepping away to cool off.  Many pwBPD have abandonment issues so don't just leave her or you are opening a new can of worms.  

If you can set boundaries and hold them, and step back until you are calm enough to talk with her rather than just fight you will see improvement in your r/s.  Be warned the first time you do this probably even the first couple it may cause a bigger fight than normal. Remain calm, don't reach for the bottle, and remember despite what she says she does love you.  

[Mutt]

Hi Dougie,



I's like to join   Meili and Oncebitten and welcome you. You have good advice so far and I agree that 3 years of sobriety is an accomplishment. Nice going! You're sensible if you're reaching out for help, don't be hard on yourself. Sometimes we can try all of the different tools, validation, no JADE'ing, nothing is working. I just wanted to leave you with article on a topic that Oncebitten brought up on taking a time out.

How to escape, take a time out

You're not responsible for someone else's feelings. A pwBPD are born with no emotional skin, nothing that protects the person from real or perceived emotional attacks and have difficulties with regulating their emotions or self sooth.

I also wanted to add " How do you feel about moving in with her?" I understand that you're looking at the positive side that it may help with your r/s but we shouldn't be pressured to move in. What does your gut tell you?

[Dougie]

   I feel like I’ve poured my soul into this relationship. I have researched so much and read Stop Walking on Eggshells by Paul Mason. I have tried to incorporate the techniques I have learned, but still struggle communicating with her when I have had enough. I will make sure to read the articles you all have provided in case I hear back from her. At this point, I don’t want to contact her. I want to work on our relationship, but I need her to take responsibility for her share. It feels like I have taken ownership for 90% of the relationship. That isn’t right. All I want is for her to acknowledge the actions she takes. Is this even possible?

   I really appreciate you guys taking time out of your days to bring my mind some ease. I have felt like I’ve been losing my mind over the course of this relationship. At times, it feels like some of those extreme feelings have transferred over to me, but I know my feelings will never compare to the continual pain she feels each and every day.

   I haven’t been taking good care of myself over the span of this relationship. I have placed her as priority number 1 and it’s starting to affect my job. I can’t sleep, can’t eat, hell, I can hardly even smile at this point. I started seeing a therapist 3 weeks ago and that helps, I just feel like I need more of a support network. I moved to my current location a year ago and filled my time by completing my graduate program. I haven’t had much time to meet new people, so when I’m not with here I find myself isolated with my thoughts. It’s a dangerous place to be for a recovering alcoholic.

   I find myself wondering if I should even contact her, or wait for her to show she’s ready to communicate. I was told that we wouldn’t see each other again, but as I assume all of you know and have experienced yourselves, this has been said countless of times. I don’t want her to suffer; I wish I could bear all of her pain.

   To be honest, I am open to moving in with her. I do believe it’s a bit early in the game, but I didn’t know what love was until she came into my life. I thought I did, but it doesn’t compare to how she makes me feel. She is truly the love of my life, which is why it’s so hard for me to walk away. Normally, I would have been a bit freaked out over the request to live with a partner this early, but there’s something special about her.  I do feel a bit pressured to move in with her and wonder what would happen if another episode like this took place. It’s a big decision if that time ever comes because I’m not quite sure if I can trust what she says at times. As a whole, I trust her, it’s just when those episodes hit, I have a hard time believing what she has said when she wasn’t experiencing an episode.

   I can’t express how nice it is to read through all of your comments. They have eased my mind a bit. I am still hoping to get the chance to talk to her again. I’m not sure if the dynamics of our relationship will lead to a healthy one, but I’m willing to put the work in to see where this road leads. I just want to make sure I don’t slip on my own end. I believe using this resource will allow me to keep a clear mind and give me tools to use if that chance comes.

   Much thanks!

[Mutt]

Hi Dougie,

I'm happy to hear that you started seeing a T ( therapist ) and you're finding that it helps, it's good to see a T concurrently with a support group. It helps to talk to people that can relate with you, it's hard to talk to family members or friend if they have not been in a r/s with someone that suffers from BPD. I turned to family and friends for support and they meant well, the advice was good, but it was good for someone that has a partner that doesn't suffer from mental illness.

Have you talked about not being able to sleep with your MD?

[Dougie]

Hi Mutt,

   I started seeing a therapist to help with some issues of my own. I also wanted to find ways to make this relationship work. I have talked to my T about my sleep difficulties and she is supposed to compile a list of psychiatrists for an evaluation since she can’t prescribe anything to me. I am also nervous to take any pills considering my addictive personality.

 My T has mentioned that I could possibly have PTSD along with a possible anxiety issue. I mentioned earlier that I had a bit of a meltdown on Saturday night. During the meltdown, my gf w/ BPD mentioned I had PTSD. Now, I normally wouldn’t give much thought to this, but she has a degree in Psychology, so I started to become curious over it. I have a session with my T on Wednesday and I couldn’t need it more. This has been a tough weekend for me and I honestly don’t even know how to go about communicating with my gf. I feel like she wants me to take ownership for something I already have. To be honest, I’m tired of carrying the load. I feel like it’s her time to show some effort. I have been confused so many times over the past few months because she’ll tell me one thing and expect the opposite in return. I honestly have no idea where to go from here. It’s difficult to get your mind off something when that something is the love of your life.

I appreciate you taking time out of your day to chat. It really means a lot.

[Mutt]

Hi Dougie,

No worries. I'm glad that this forum is here, I could have used it when I was married to my pwBPD Unfortunately, I found it after the split but it was a lifesaver. It helps me to talk to people that are in similar situations  like parenting after the split and I pay it forward too.

It’s difficult to get your mind off something when that something is the love of your life.

Did your T give you some strategies to cope with anxiety?

[Dougie]

Hi Mutt,
   My T hasn’t given me any strategies yet. I’ve only had two sessions with my T, so it’s been more about me telling my own background. I have never taken therapy serious until this relationship came. I chose to go to therapy because I was nervous over the possibility of a relapse. I’m hoping to hear about some strategies during my session Wednesday.

[Mutt]

Here's a link for self help https://www.anxietybc.com/

Select self help at the top. It'll give you tools to manage with anxiety.

[Dougie]

Awesome, thank you very much. I appreciate all of your help and advice.

[Mutt]

Dougie,

You're welcome. My last bit of advice, make sure that you take really good care of yourself too.

[Dougie]

        I appreciate the encouragement Nibbler. I have tried writing my thoughts down. The problem is, writing tends to lead me back to some pessimistic mindsets. I have used writing as therapy for many years, so I’m afraid I may need to find a new release. I recently completed a graduate program for some of that good ol’ writing. I think I’m a bit tuckered out from it.

   Honestly, I haven’t taken very good care of myself over the length of this relationship. I used to exercise daily, but haven’t felt up to it with all of the energy I used on this relationship. I did go for a hike on Sunday. That seemed to help a bit. Thank you for providing those articles. I’ll make sure to give them a read tomorrow.

   Still haven’t heard from her and I’m starting to think that may be a good thing. It’s not fun having a relationship end in such turmoil. Maybe something will be gained from this in due time. Thanks again Nibbler!

[Mutt]

Hi Dougie,

Honestly, I haven’t taken very good care of myself over the length of this relationship. I used to exercise daily, but haven’t felt up to it with all of the energy I used on this relationship. I did go for a hike on Sunday. That seemed to help a bit. Thank you for providing those articles. I’ll make sure to give them a read tomorrow.

You probably already know this, self care is really important for your mental health, some people may misunderstand as being selfish, I thought it was selfish, it's self compassion. If we're taking care of ourselves, it telegraphs to friends and family to do the same. When we're happier the people that are close to us are happier.

Something else that I appreciate about the gym is that it my time without interruptions, I don't pick up calls or respond to emails and texts, I focus on exercising, it's a good way to relieve stress and boost your mood.

I know that it's not easy to get into the gym when we feel depleted. That's good to hear that the hike helped I like weight lifting, I found that once I stepped into the gym it gave me the momentum to keep going back, it was that initial step that I found hard and I had to push myself.

[C.Stein]

At this point, I don’t want to contact her. I want to work on our relationship, but I need her to take responsibility for her share. It feels like I have taken ownership for 90% of the relationship. That isn’t right. All I want is for her to acknowledge the actions she takes. Is this even possible?

The hard reality here is probably not.  This is the nature of being in a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature.  I recommend you take a healthy step back and look long and hard at what you want from a relationship and if she can provide it for you.  Moving in together is probably not a good idea at this juncture, especially given the likelihood the issues you face now will get worse.  Be aware of the role you will need to play in this relationship and understand she will probably never be able to meet you half-way.

[Dougie]

     I definitely agree that moving in with her wouldn’t be a good move now and I won’t be pursuing that until we are able to effectively communicate when one of us is feeling down. I did hear from her today through text message. She asked if I was alright, if I was still sober, and then put a zinger in there about if the therapist has taught me any anger management techniques. I was taken aback by this, so I didn’t respond.

     She sent another message, thirty minutes later, apparently annoyed at my lack of response but wished me a good night. Now, I did react in anger over her walking out, but it seems to be a bit of a stretch to talk about anger management techniques. Am I wrong to think this? I figured it was best for me to simply ignore the question so the situation didn’t get out of hand. I have told her when we discuss matters like this it needs to be in person. Every time we chat over the phone after an argument, the words are twisted from each other’s interpretation. I feel like her reaching out shows she still cares though. I also felt like she was hoping I would apologize and take ownership for the situation. I won’t be doing that this time.

     As the weeks have passed, I have become a little bit more comfortable with the possibility of not seeing her again. Just a little. Yes, it’s heart breaking, our connection is something I’ve never experienced before, but at some point I have to look out for myself. I don’t think I would be able to continue a relationship with her until she realizes how her actions affect me during those dust ups. She seems to just walk through them and think she hasn’t done anything wrong. I’m not one to listen to apologies because actions are more important, but it is nice to hear those words on occasion. I find this is especially true when those actions fluctuate between the highs and lows. I hardly ever hear her express regret.  My role in the relationship will be heightened, and she may never be able to reach me half way, but is it too much to expect to see some form of regret?
Thanks in advance 

[C.Stein]

She sent another message, thirty minutes later, apparently annoyed at my lack of response but wished me a good night. Now, I did react in anger over her walking out, but it seems to be a bit of a stretch to talk about anger management techniques. Am I wrong to think this? I figured it was best for me to simply ignore the question so the situation didn’t get out of hand. I have told her when we discuss matters like this it needs to be in person. Every time we chat over the phone after an argument, the words are twisted from each other’s interpretation. I feel like her reaching out shows she still cares though. I also felt like she was hoping I would apologize and take ownership for the situation. I won’t be doing that this time.

Projection and shifting attention away from themselves (actions, words, behavior) seems to be consistently reported here.  My ex did it to me consistently.  It is OK to feel anger, it is what you do with that anger is what counts.  My ex had an uncanny ability to push me over the edge and while it didn't happen often I do regret letting her do that to me.  Sometimes it is best to ignore what people say, especially when they are looking to get a reaction from you.  This is the kind of stuff you just let pass over you, not through you (i.e. don't process the words internally).  In this manner it is far easier to not get emotionally caught up in what is essentially verbal garbage. 

As far as taking ownership ... .own what is yours to own, nothing more, nothing less.

As the weeks have passed, I have become a little bit more comfortable with the possibility of not seeing her again. Just a little. Yes, it’s heart breaking, our connection is something I’ve never experienced before, but at some point I have to look out for myself.

I understand this and sympathize with your dilemma.  I, like many here, also felt that "once in a life time" connection.  It is difficult to walk away from this no matter how damaging it becomes.  The danger is you will find yourself excusing things you shouldn't excuse, letting things go you shouldn't, allowing your own emotional well being to be trampled on and generally ignored.  For myself I allowed my own emotional well being to be marginalized and ignored by my ex.  This was wrong for both my own well being and the well being of our relationship.

I don’t think I would be able to continue a relationship with her until she realizes how her actions affect me during those dust ups. She seems to just walk through them and think she hasn’t done anything wrong. I’m not one to listen to apologies because actions are more important, but it is nice to hear those words on occasion. I find this is especially true when those actions fluctuate between the highs and lows. I hardly ever hear her express regret.  My role in the relationship will be heightened, and she may never be able to reach me half way, but is it too much to expect to see some form of regret?

This is a good realization Dougie.  The thing about emotional immaturity is the person cannot see the consequence of their actions before they act.  They will act/behave on impulse, thinking only of their own emotions and perceived needs at that moment, much like a child will.  My ex was very much like this and when she saw how damaging her behavior and actions were after the fact she would either completely shut down and go into victim mode or back peddle with excuses, blame shifting and finger pointing.   Odd thing is she would accept responsibility for things that she was clearly not responsible for ... .I suspect because there was no emotional consequence and she clearly believe she wasn't responsible.

To accept responsibility, to hold ones self accountable for not only your actions but the consequences of those actions requires emotional maturity, something that a borderline struggles with at best.   A borderline is also generally unable to separate the action from their own personal character and will see themselves as a bad ... .bad action = bad person.  To accept responsibility in the mind of borderline is to accept they are also a bad person and this is to be avoided at all costs.  This I believe is the reason why it is so difficult for a borderline to empathize and show regret, particularly when there is emotional consequence involved.

While my ex at times did appear to show regret, it was fleeting and generally insincere ... .and it never came with an apology for the emotional consequences to me.  I believe in her mind when she saw how much her actions/behavior and words impacted me she would convince herself that it wasn't her fault.  To show genuine and sincere regret/remorse would mean she would need to accept she is a bad person, which is not true, and she would do just about anything to avoid feeling that way.   

So to answer your question, is it too much to expect to see regret I would have to say yes.  The important thing though isn't even an expression of regret/remorse, be it insincere or not, it is what one does as a result of the regretful action/behavior.  It is how one learns and grows from it.  An expression of regret means nothing when there are no following changes in behavior to avoid doing it again ... .and that requires emotional maturity.

[Dougie]

    It definitely is best to ignore what is said. That is something I will have to work on. I usually do this, but I find it hard to do when someone I care so deeply about utters those words. I opened up completely to this woman, so when I hear those words they sting tenfold. We talked on the phone yesterday and it was more of the blame game. I was hung up on, and haven’t heard from her since. I don’t really expect to at this point. She said she no longer had any time or emotion to spend on this. It’s a shame as I have put my heart and soul into this relationship.

    When I first started learning about BPD, I really thought this was something I could help with. As time passed, I became more mentally, physically, and emotionally drained. I felt like she had a lasso and was pulling me back a few steps when the episodes hit. This week has gone a bit better and I’m starting to feel like I’m climbing out of that pit. I know if I see her again I will completely crumble. My head is telling me to walk away, but my heart is clinging to that hope that we’ll make it work. I typically go with the heart. That’s worrisome for me considering how those lows make me feel. I’m currently going to just go with the flow and see what happens. To steal one of her lines, I’m not sure if I have any more time or emotion to spend on this.

    I also get the sense that my pwBPD convinces herself that it isn’t her fault. She doesn’t see the problem of her continuing to walk out and threatening that she’s going to be gone forever. She doesn’t see how that is a trigger for me. When we talk about any disagreements I must take responsibility for the whole debacle. I did that the first few times, but I can’t do that anymore because it’s driving me nuts. I appreciate you taking time out of your day and sharing your own experiences. It helps to know there are others that have traveled these roads.

    All the best

[C.Stein]

   It definitely is best to ignore what is said. That is something I will have to work on. I usually do this, but I find it hard to do when someone I care so deeply about utters those words. I opened up completely to this woman, so when I hear those words they sting tenfold. We talked on the phone yesterday and it was more of the blame game. I was hung up on, and haven’t heard from her since. I don’t really expect to at this point. She said she no longer had any time or emotion to spend on this. It’s a shame as I have put my heart and soul into this relationship.

Yea, I get this in a big way.  The second time my ex dumped me she said "what a waste of time".  Those five words cut real deep because she effectively was saying I was a waste of time, that my feelings and the emotional damage she had caused me was a waste of time, that the "love" and dreams we shared together was a waste of time.  She had convinced herself that she had done no wrong and I was the one who was doing her wrong because I had distanced myself due to the emotional pain and turmoil I was experiencing as a result of her behavior and actions.  Her expectations of me were this ... .forget what she did to me and the relationship ... .forget my feelings and emotional well being ... .don't expect accountability from her ... .think of only her and what she needs.  

I also put my heart and soul into my relationship and she simply could not see that.  She is so wrapped up in her own wants/needs she cannot see anything else.

When I first started learning about BPD, I really thought this was something I could help with. As time passed, I became more mentally, physically, and emotionally drained. I felt like she had a lasso and was pulling me back a few steps when the episodes hit. This week has gone a bit better and I’m starting to feel like I’m climbing out of that pit. I know if I see her again I will completely crumble. My head is telling me to walk away, but my heart is clinging to that hope that we’ll make it work. I typically go with the heart. That’s worrisome for me considering how those lows make me feel. I’m currently going to just go with the flow and see what happens. To steal one of her lines, I’m not sure if I have any more time or emotion to spend on this.

I understand.  Your relationship sounds a lot like mine was, except I didn't know about the BPD link until after I was permanently introduced to the trash bin.  The thing you need to accept here is it will not change without serious and sustained effort on her part (ex. DBT).  I also held onto hope, hope that she would finally step up, stand by me and be my equal partner.  I needed her to accept responsibility for the thoughtless, selfish, uncaring things she did that slowly destroyed me and our relationship but she couldn't do it.  As much as I loved her she had finally broken me and it sounds like you are either close to or at the same point.  It got so bad with me the last six months it started to have a physical impact on me (anxiety, stress, depression) and I was experiencing intermittent chest pains, extreme exhaustion and finally stroke symptoms that sent me to the ER about 6 weeks after she disposed of me.

The hardest thing for me has been seeing and accepting her for who she truly is.  Most of the time she was amazing but I now realize that was all superficial surface stuff.  She told me on quite a few occasions that I would "never see her dark side" but she couldn't be more wrong.  Her "dark side" (read BPD) was always there impacting her thought processes and pretty much every aspect of her life.  I do wish I knew exactly what she meant when she said that.  Given what happened in my relationship I suspect that meant she would lie and deceive me in order to hide these parts of herself when they were expressed.  

As hard as it has been to let her go, I also know without any doubt I don't want or need that in my life.  At the end of the day it all comes down to respect and she had little to none for me.  I do not want people like that in my life.  Yet I still love her and I still even now sometimes ask myself "what if" ... .she really did a number on me, or more appropriately I allowed her to.     What are you going to allow?  How much disrespect can you tolerate before it breaks you?

I also get the sense that my pwBPD convinces herself that it isn’t her fault. She doesn’t see the problem of her continuing to walk out and threatening that she’s going to be gone forever. She doesn’t see how that is a trigger for me.

Yup.  My ex can admit she did something wrong but in her own mind she has to believe she didn't for her own emotional survival.  She doesn't have the emotional maturity it takes to hold herself accountable for her actions, particularly when there is emotional consequence involved.  This is why many pwBPD can appear completely "normal" outside of close personal/romantic relationships ... .because there is no emotional consequence involved.  Outside of our relationship my ex was amazing ... .that was the person I fell in love with but that person was not the real her.  The phrase "reality sucks" has never been more true.

All the words in the world don't amount to squat if the actions aren't there to back them up.  My ex was exceptionally good at saying the right thing but there was never any weight behind those words because the needed actions didn't follow.

So you are at a crossroad here and you should take the time you need to examine where each road will take you in the near and distant future.