when I think things can't get any stranger

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My grandson is 5 months old now. My daughter and SIL live out of state (5 hour drive). So we can't just do random visiting.

My wife has this issue if I refer to my grandson as "my grandson". Say for instance I was showing pics of the baby to someone visiting the house and I said "hey check these cute pics of my grandson"

I would get the serious crap thrown down on me for not referring to him as "our" grandson. She wouldn't "call me out" in front of the company. I could understand contempt if I said "I am going to see MY grandson" in a way that tries to exclude her.

My wife will not push to make plans to go visit "the baby". Last week she told me that I was due a visit down to see her mom and I said well I want to go to North Carolina first. That pissed her off big time. I just said it as calm as could be. She bit back " YOU can go there and I will go to moms"

To me this is all strange behavior... .for instance my daughter got me a mug for my birthday this past December that read " the best dads get promoted to grandpas" ever since then my wife has been kind of obsessed with getting mug that has her "nickname" on it. My wife would even go on Facebook and troll around looking to see if my ex wife's husband got any kind of coffee mug that had anything to do with being a grandparent. I think she quit doing that.

That I know of, my wife never just picks up the phone and calls my daughter to see how the baby is doing. I think she texts a little.

Also the other weird thing. If my daughter happens to text (only) me a video or pics of the baby, my wife gets offended. SO when I get a pic or video I try to decide if I want to share it because I will get asked about why it was only sent to me.

My daughter group messaged a cute video of the baby today ( sent it to my wife). I get a text later asking " did you send me the video" I said no ( daughter) sent it. She texted back I know, to you, right?  I said no to both of us

just more strange behavior

[byfaith]

My grandson is 5 months old now. My daughter and SIL live out of state (5 hour drive). So we can't just do random visiting.

My wife has this issue if I refer to my grandson as "my grandson". Say for instance I was showing pics of the baby to someone visiting the house and I said "hey check these cute pics of my grandson"

I would get the serious crap thrown down on me for not referring to him as "our" grandson. She wouldn't "call me out" in front of the company. I could understand contempt if I said "I am going to see MY grandson" in a way that tries to exclude her.

My wife will not push to make plans to go visit "the baby". Last week she told me that I was due a visit down to see her mom and I said well I want to go to North Carolina first. That pissed her off big time. I just said it as calm as could be. She bit back " YOU can go there and I will go to moms"

To me this is all strange behavior... .for instance my daughter got me a mug for my birthday this past December that read " the best dads get promoted to grandpas" ever since then my wife has been kind of obsessed with getting mug that has her "nickname" on it. My wife would even go on Facebook and troll around looking to see if my ex wife's husband got any kind of coffee mug that had anything to do with being a grandparent. I think she quit doing that.

That I know of, my wife never just picks up the phone and calls my daughter to see how the baby is doing. I think she texts a little.

Also the other weird thing. If my daughter happens to text (only) me a video or pics of the baby, my wife gets offended. SO when I get a pic or video I try to decide if I want to share it because I will get asked about why it was only sent to me.

My daughter group messaged a cute video of the baby today ( sent it to my wife). I get a text later asking " did you send me the video" I said no ( daughter) sent it. She texted back I know, to you, right?  I said no to both of us

just more strange behavior

[byfaith]

I didn't finish my thought here. I am wondering how to approach this subject

Is this where I should ask a question such as "help me to understand" why you feel upset when... .

She has not been excluded from anything. All invitations that have been sent to us to go to "events" with the baby my wife has declined or made some excuse not to go

[Cat Familiar]

My husband has this weird sense of not being included too. A month ago, I invited a couple that he considers his "best friends" over for a swim and dinner.

I thought he'd be happy, but no. I wouldn't invite them on my own, since I really don't enjoy their company that much. I thought I was doing something nice for him, but his response was, "I guess they're your friends now." And he acted as if he wasn't even going to be around.

The afternoon they arrived, he'd been acting put out all morning, even though I was the one who did all the housecleaning in preparation for them.

Just another notation for the "No good deed goes unpunished" journal.  

[Cat Familiar]

FF cautions against the why word and in this case, I think it could come off as confrontational.

With my husband, he's so paranoid sometimes that he's not "wanted" that the only way he feels "included" is if somebody makes a big deal over him and how important his presence is--and that typically doesn't happen.

[byfaith]

or, OR... .I could say "help me understand your feelings when I get sent pictures and you don't"  "I want to show them to you but you seem to get upset, then I don't show them to you and then you get upset if you find out later I got pictures"

or help me understand your feelings when I may refer to "the baby" as my grandson. As it stands now I will just use the baby's name when talking about him around my wife to others.  I have never said "our grandson" She has not invested any personal time into him yet.



 

[formflier]

Several things to respond to here... .

Number 1 piece of advice.  Go to her and make a "statement"... .not an apology... .that you are so glad that she wants to hear "our" grandbaby.  Assure her that you will make best effort to use her requested language... .

Tell her you feel good about the request because it indicates couple-hood... ."our"... .together... .connected.

Let her know how good it makes you feel that she wants "our" to be the way you look at the world.

Assure her that is the case.

Note:  This is direct and to the point.  Not lovey dovey.


By same token... .you need to take a principled boundary led look at the issue of your daughter texting habits.  Validate the frustration your wife feels and encourage her to contact your daughter.  Then stay out of the way.

Circle back to admiring "our" baby.  When wife brings up texting... .validate quickly... encourage communication and then spend majority time on "our" baby.

I would also take a firm... .but loving stance on "being due" to visit people.  Is that the language that was used?

"Are you asking me to come on a trip with you?" would be a good response.  I wouldn't "fight" the notion of "owing" people trips... .but I sure as heck would agree with it.

Don't worry about what kinds of trips you wife wants or pushes for.  If you want her to go somewhere... .ask.  Then you go.  Don't "play her game"... .live your life.

If she wants you to go, she will ask.  Go if you can... .politely decline if you can't.

You do need a healthy "response" vice "reaction" for when there is an attempt at "guilt" or obligation being used to get you to go on a trip.

If she sticks with trying to use "FOG" on any level to get you to go on a trip or do something.  Don't do it... .


FF

[Notwendy]

By Faith,

While I think it is important to be validating, my own opinion is to not validate or indulge things that I truly believe are strange or not emotionally healthy. You said it in this post- this idea of "ours" with your wife being included in conversations with your daughter, getting offended if someone says "your" grandbaby instead of "ours" feels strange. It is possibly wanting too much enmeshment. Maybe she wants it- and you can validate her feelings, but do you have to comply with it? ( I will let you answer that).

My H and I are both the biological parents of our children, but that is a given. Our kids are also his kids, and they are my kids. If he mentions " my child" to someone- that does not negate the fact that the child is mine as well. All three pronouns co-exist.
In the same place. Your wife is having black and white thinking. Do you have to support this?

I have been a stay at home mom- and so have spent more time with the kids when they were little than my H did. Some of this was his own choice- he would resist watching them as he felt it was "my job". As a result- the kids will turn to me with some personal questions because they are used to that. Then, I would hear things like "you are separating me from my kids" to which I would respond by trying to be understanding and accommodating and planning things for them and him. But really, the kids are right there for him to engage whenever- but he has to make the time and the effort. So eventually I told him that his relationship with the kids was his effort to make and left that to him-to make plans with them. and he did. This was not my issue to "fix" for him. The kids have a good relationship with him and they do things on their own. ( he also visits his parents on his own. Sometimes we go together and sometimes not)

And separate is OK. If there was an outing, my H used to insist on us being all together all the time. I recall a time when I had a virus, and didn't want to go and he yelled at me insisting we all go as a family as there was no other option. I had not worked on co-dependency skills yet, but the truth was- I should have rested- but I forced myself out of fear- and to accommodate him. Now, I look at these things more broadly. There needs to be family time, and family time is good, but in addition, there can be time with Dad, and time with Mom. The kids can have their own individual relationships with each of us without it changing that we are both their parents. It doesn't have to be in black and white. In addition, there are some confidences that are OK to keep- ie, female things with a daughter don't need to be shared with my H. Dad is not going out to buy Tampons and this does not impact his relationship with a daughter.

BPD relationships can involve triangulation and being on the drama triangle. FOO's can be very enmeshed and with confusing roles. My mother has this idea of all included in everything too. She has not ever gotten along with my father's FOO-in fact, they dislike each other. They had a family event and invited us and not her ( this was after my father passed away or they would have been included as a couple). When my mother heard that this person ( who she dislikes and they have not gotten along in decades) did not include her, she was furious- so furious that she went NC with everyone involved- us included. She also said she would send no more birthday or holiday gifts to our kids. All this because we had planned to attend something we were invited to.

My response to this was a bit different this time. I did not indulge her. First, I let her have her period of "NC" which was really a form of the silent treatment. I didn't reach out, or plead or ask her forgiveness- for what? All we did was attend something we were invited to. The host can invite who she wants. Eventually she came around, and I validated how this could hurt her feelings. Then, I brought up cutting off the kids. I told her that the kids don't need presents,  but they need consistency-that her doing this to punish them would ultimately harm her relationship with them more than it hurt them to not get a gift. She could choose to send a nice card, and that would be enough. Then left it at that.

Can you find some way to respond to your wife's feelings- while still holding your ground- that you can have your own relationship with your D, as well as with your wife. That the grandbaby is both hers, ours, and yours and one doesn't negate the other?

And- although this post is long, I will challenge you to stand up for your relationship with your D. This is something important to me. My mother, like your wife, insisted on him sharing any thing between us with her. This meant, e mails, letters, and she listened in on our phone calls ( before cell phones ). I can understand that my mother felt left out- because I was closer to my father than I was to her. However, this was a result of her own behavior towards me as a child. I wished things were different- but my mother has a mental illness. Although my father  was in love with her - I was not in love with her. I could treat her with respect, comply with the Biblical "honor your parents" but I could not feel the same emotional connection with her that I had with my father.

My mother put my father in a position to choose loyalty to her over his relationship with me- I didn't. However her way of seeing things on the drama triangle, taking sides, made it a "her side" or "my side" thing. My father chose her. This was very hurtful. Yet, relating to my father as an individual seemed like an illusion. They were so enmeshed, they were one person.

I think this is your challenge: your wife sees your marriage as two people being the same unit, while the possibility is that a marriage is two individual people and one unit at the same time. This means that each can be their own person ( with some boundaries on other relationships)- have their own thoughts, feelings, interests and relationships as well as be a couple.

One of those relationships is with your D. You chose your wife, she didn't. She has every right to not have feelings for her. She may even dislike her- but is putting up with her because she loves you. She may not even want that grandbaby to spend much time with your wife- for that baby's sake. Yes, it is understandable that this is hurtful to your wife- and it is also facing reality. My father certainly didn't like to hear me wish to protect my kids from my mother's behavior- as this brought her disorder out in the open. Your wife probably doesn't like this and neither does my mother. And it makes sense for her to protest this. However, if you want a relationship with your daughter, and that grandbaby, you will need to stand up for your right to have a relationship with her.  

Your wife has already demonstrated enmeshement and poor boundaries with her son. This is who she is. The only person in your marriage who can demonstrate healthy boundaries is you. She may not like this, but IMHO, this is more helpful to her in the long run- to demonstrate boundaries - with love- than to indulge in hers.

[Notwendy]

While it is not appropriate to discuss politics on this board, I want to mention ( without debate) it as an example of enmeshement in my family. My H's family has this issue too, and being vocal about a disagreement is felt by them as being disloyal.

My kids are older now. They read the news, get input from their friends, and have heard several different points of view. I have told them that the right to vote in private is their privilege and that when they do have this opportunity- they can vote for whoever they want to- and don't have to vote the way a parent does if they feel otherwise. In addition, sometimes my H and I do not vote on the same candidate.

This time, my H feels strongly about one and dislikes the other ( doesn't matter who- that topic is beyond the boundaries of this board). I'm not so enthusiastic about either of them, but will choose the one I feel is the best possible choice. However, if I say something critical about my H's candidate - he reacts as if I am criticizing him. Then he tells me I am influencing the kids against his candidate (ie him) and I should not say those things.

In most cases, this is too inflammatory a topic to discuss, but realizing that my H is possibly personalizing my statements, I realize that they serve no purpose in this context. Yet, if the kids ask about something they read, or heard at school, I try to discuss the topic as objectively as I can- pros and cons. They "get" that mom and dad may have different opinions and it doesn't influence how they feel about either of us.

It is enmeshment that adds drama to these discussions. It's a hot topic to begin with, but with enmeshment, it is more challenging to navigate. Still, at the voting booth, I am just me, not a couple.

Enmeshment causes a person to see another person as an extension of themselves, not a separate human being. An enmeshed person can take offense when their partner has different ideas, wishes or feelings than themselves. Yet, we are all our own person in a relationship or not.

[formflier]

Byfaith,

Notwendy makes a really solid point about enmeshment.  I'm going to stick with my recommendation but if you can "dial down" my emphasis or language... .probably appropriate.

My entire point about the word "our" coming out of your mouth is it is an easy way to emphasize "connectedness" with your wife without much actual cost (like taking a trip).  If there is any chance she is  a "words" love language person... .then all the more so important.

Using "ours" without clearly enforcing boundaries about trips and other people using that word... .would definitely encourage enmeshment.

If you can use "ours" with her and the direct her to speak directly to other family members about how they handle it... .I think you are ok.

If you are not going to be able to exit the triangle of wife and other family members... .then I would be very very careful here.

Good thread... .lots of "competing interests" try and wisely work through.  On the one hand you want to "build bridges" towards your wife, but on the other hand... .with a pwBPD it is especially critical to emphasize separateness... .that your feelings and actions can be different from your wife, and that's OK.



FF