Self respect and open warfare

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So... .I get home a bit before 5pm.   I hear my wife's booming voice telling the kindergartner that the kindergartner knows what a cylinder is "she just doesn't want to say it for some reason... ."

Some sort of school lesson.

I need to grab gas and cash... .so I head back out and text my wife that I will be back to get them at 530 to go to church.

Placed a call on the way back... .didn't get her.  Got in touch with son and had him pass phone to mommy.  When I pulled up, they were coming out of the house.

As she gets in van... .the big booming voice... ."where did you go"... .I smiled and pointed at pretzel (from Sams club)... .tried to lower tension level by saying something about a goodie.  She becomes more booming... .where did you go.  Evenly and factually said "I went to Sam's club to get gas, get cash and I picked up a pretzel for you... .there's the mustard that you like"

She literally turned up nose at it... sniffed a bit and was silent.  Some kids asked me if they could have some... .I said "no... .I got that as a special treat for mommy... .it's all hers" (we are driving to dinner at church)

Kids ask her for some and she distributes most of it to them.  They were all "thank you mommy... .thanks... .!"

She was again just loud and nasty as she talked to me and then... .very harsh tone.

We pull up to church and I said "Hey... I'm going to drop you guys off.  I need some time to myself to relax and chill out"

Wife is indignant  "You mean you don't want to come in and eat with us?"  I repeated I needed space.

[formflier]

So... .I get home a bit before 5pm.   I hear my wife's booming voice telling the kindergartner that the kindergartner knows what a cylinder is "she just doesn't want to say it for some reason... ."

Some sort of school lesson.

I need to grab gas and cash... .so I head back out and text my wife that I will be back to get them at 530 to go to church.

Placed a call on the way back... .didn't get her.  Got in touch with son and had him pass phone to mommy.  When I pulled up, they were coming out of the house.

As she gets in van... .the big booming voice... ."where did you go"... .I smiled and pointed at pretzel (from Sams club)... .tried to lower tension level by saying something about a goodie.  She becomes more booming... .where did you go.  Evenly and factually said "I went to Sam's club to get gas, get cash and I picked up a pretzel for you... .there's the mustard that you like"

She literally turned up nose at it... sniffed a bit and was silent.  Some kids asked me if they could have some... .I said "no... .I got that as a special treat for mommy... .it's all hers" (we are driving to dinner at church)

Kids ask her for some and she distributes most of it to them.  They were all "thank you mommy... .thanks... .!"

She was again just loud and nasty as she talked to me and then... .very harsh tone.

We pull up to church and I said "Hey... I'm going to drop you guys off.  I need some time to myself to relax and chill out"

Wife is indignant  "You mean you don't want to come in and eat with us?"  I repeated I needed space.

[formflier]

More later

[formflier]

Anyway... .she gets out of van with kids... .rummages through her purse and announces with a derisive... .demanding voice that she needs me to give her money for dinner.

I pulled out my wallet and asked if she would appreciate it or be able to be thankful... .especially since she didn't appreciate or thank me for the pretzel.

She shouted out me... ."You should be kind to me... ."

I said "your choice... ." and put away my wallet.

She slammed the doors and they walked in... .I drove away.

later... I get the following text

 Honey I am sorry I didn't say thank you for the pretzel... .I appreciate you thinking of me in that way. I do not understand why you left is at the church... .without money to eat... .did something happen today while I was at work that I am unaware of? 5:38 PM

Me: We should just talk in person 6:39 PM

ff wife: Kids and I will be home a little after 8 6:41 PM

notice all of the "fight lines".   

"you left us at church"

"while I was at work"

They are back home... .she hasn't spoken to me yet.  Yep... .I've heard the booming voice off in another part of the house.

It just sucks that "this" is back... .trying to stay out of way. 

Sigh...

FF

FF

[ArleighBurke]

I do admire your boundaries - being able to completely say "no" when needed... .

When you dropped them at church and said you needed time - you didn't give her any indication of WHEN/HOW LONG. I see that as a problem. I'm guessing you weren't planning to join her at all at church, so I would have said that and "Ill pick you up at X time", or "I'll see you at home after".

For my wife, that would completely throw her. If she expected to be at church with me, and at the last minute I said I wasn't going to join her - my wife would need time to adjust to that. Perhaps telling her when you got in the car, so she had the car trip to think about it?

Was it also 1hr between when she apologised and when you texted back? I'm guessing that was a typo. I also don't really like your response to her text (sorry). It leaves too much open for her to worry about. She apologised! which is great - even if she did it with fighting words - that is just the BPD way. The fact she apologied is great. But your response of "we'll talk later" would cause worry. Again, if it was my wife I would have said "Everythings OK - let's talk tonight".

The hardest thing about my wife I've had to learn is that her "fighting words" as you say - she truely believes them. There's no point trying to correct them - it just leads to many more arguements. Technically you did "leave her at the church"... ."While I was at work" - just leave it alone!

[formflier]

I was on the phone when she texted... .data does come through if I am using voice.

I told her to call me when she was done and I would pick her up... .so I left time up to her.

100 percent of our counselors since 2009 have said no apology via text.

If she brings it up in person I clarify that I don't accept or consider text apologies.

I don't pursue her on them though.  I ignore them.

This evening she got home... .was Uber nice to me.  Gave me pedicure.  Nothing was mentioned.

FF

[formflier]

I was hoping she would calm on the ride over... .it got worse. 

So... .I made the decision in the parking lot.

No warning  for me or her.

FF

[Notwendy]

You didn't leave her with money, but I haven't heard of anyone starving at a church supper. Surely they got to eat?

[Notwendy]

Anyway... .she gets out of van with kids... .rummages through her purse and announces with a derisive... .demanding voice that she needs me to give her money for dinner.

I pulled out my wallet and asked if she would appreciate it or be able to be thankful... .especially since she didn't appreciate or thank me for the pretzel.

She shouted out me... ."You should be kind to me... ."

I said "your choice... ." and put away my wallet.


That was adding gasoline to the drama. I see where you were irritated that she was grumpy and didn't say thank you, but this line reflects irritation which didn't diffuse the situation. Do you see where it escalated- and she shouted, then you reacted.

You don't have to be a doormat but in the heat of the moment, reacting just fans the flames.  Did she ask you to get a pretzel? Maybe she didn't really want it- and so didn't show appreciation.

If you wanted to let this just play out, it could have gone this way:

Anyway... .she gets out of van with kids... .rummages through her purse and announces with a derisive... .demanding voice that she needs me to give her money for dinner.

You could then have given her the money. It was not an unreasonable request. Someone paid for and cooked the food for supper- the money wasn't for her- it was to the church- and the church was providing a meal and religious activity for your family.

And then gone on your way. Win- win.

[Notwendy]

Open warfare?

FF, I am going to poke at you, because you can't change your wife, but you can change you and you have done some really great work.

Your wife getting pissy is not a war. The war you fought was abroad, and if you are seeing things in military/war perspective, then the war you are fighting is the war you brought back with you.

Your wife being pissy isn't a war. It's her being pissy for a number of reasons- maybe not even about you.

You walked in the house to hear her being pissy with one of the kids, for something probably not related to you. So you go to Sam's club, come home and she is still pissy. You give her a pretzel and she is still pissy about something, and you see this as dysrespectful. So now, you are irritated. But she isn't shooting missals at you.

Where is the war? Do you have to go on the defense or attack? Perhaps you could have said something in the moment- honey, sounds like you had a hard day.

Or she is paranoid. That is not something she can control. You went to get cash, gas, go to Sams club but she didn't know where you were. So her imagination went wild and she asks. But now, you see this as an offense and are irritated and reactive.

So, you drive the family to church, and she is expecting a family church supper. Whose value is this? Both of yours. You want family time and so does she. So, she doesn't expect that you will drop her off with this kids.

It is fine to take some time to yourself. In fact, it is good, because at that point you are angry and reactive. It isn't good for you or your family to be there all grumpy. But some of this isn't about her, it is your reaction. So take some time to cool off.

But she's surprised and probably feels abandoned. Also, if the church wants a donation for the supper, it's pretty embarrassing and rude to show up without one ( unless there is financial need- I haven't heard of a church turning down a hungry person at a church supper ) She could say she forgot her wallet and will bring the money later. But she probably wanted to give it to the church. She probably feels abandoned at this point.

When she is in a bad mood, there are choices. You can't control her feelings, and eventually she will calm down. But taking them personally and as some kind of attack or battle may be turning your home into a war zone.

[formflier]

 But taking them personally and as some kind of attack or battle may be turning your home into a war zone.

Yep... .I can see this... .and I did have a choice... .and I made one.

I choose to value my self respect... .to value me over her or "doing the right thing".

It's been a long time since I have been "yelled at" and gave in to the request or "ignored the yelling" and did the right thing.

Value:  I don't give money to people that are disrespectful to me.

While I totally agree I didn't present the choice in the best... .or even better way... .the choice is not unfamiliar to my wife.

From prior experience and from my words she knew there was money available and there was a transactional cost to getting it.  She made a choice to not go through with it.

My role is not to save her from her choices.  I also shouldn't persecute her for her choices.

So... .I've not asked how they solved the issue... .and don't plan to.  

I will tell you that my wife was the nicest and most pleasant she has been to me in several days once she got home.  In our conversation a household "admin" issue came up, she got defensive and I steered conversation away from it.  She quickly relaxed and went back to being pleasant.

So... .back to my title.  The "open warfare" is what I have been experiencing since Sunday evening and "self respect" is that there are certain things that I normally do without thinking about it (handing over cash) that I refuse to do under those conditions.  

Consequences of my "self respect" will be what they are... .but I stood up for me. 

FF

PS... .Keep poking or giving other opinions. 

[Notwendy]

I understand your boundary, but

You didn't "give" her money, marital funds are owned by both of you.

It isn't your money- it belongs to the church - that bought and prepared food for your family.

She wasn't asking you for money to take a Caribbean vacation. She was asking for money to pay for taking your children to church.

That is something that benefits your family.

I see your point of view, but there are other ways to look at this.

[formflier]

 
I do see all of your points... .they are all valid. 

It will be interesting to see if I "feel" the same way about this in a week or longer.

Fairly common theme that has emerged as I have "learned" about BPDish stuff and how I adjust and understand my new reality.

There are things I'm just not going to do.

I don't present it in a right or wrong kinda way but in a "this is who I am and if you want to do things with me... .this is how things work" kinda way.

I do get that many can look at this and see me as a selfish (fill in the blank) or unreasonable (fill in blank). 

I'm ok with that.

Notwendy... .please keep up the alternate point of view thing.  It does help me to see the other side... .or how my wife may view things.



FF

[KateCat]

Value:  I don't give money to people that are disrespectful to me.

Might others experience this as, "I breach a contract when my pride is wounded." Might it result in more conflicts in your life than are strictly necessary? (For instance, that conflict between you and the woman to whom you sold the baby stroller.)

You and your wife seem so evenly matched in terms of this type of battle. I picture Godzilla and Rodan battling eternally over the city of Tokyo, while human residents below cower and dive for cover.

This one situation, just as you described it here, might be an excellent one to discuss with the psychologist. And maybe it could lead to a discussion of the importance in general of "respect" for you and how you might regain the feeling of being respected in your life in spite of your wife's behaviors. (Personal aside: no way could I live with your wife.)

I also think you are doing great work in general. Struggling honestly with yourself in a way that few people will undertake in a truly sustained manner.  

[formflier]

I also think you are doing great work in general. Struggling honestly with yourself in a way that few people will undertake in a truly sustained manner. 

Yep... .the thing that stuck out to me in your post was being able to "sustain" a level of effort.

I've seen lots of variations in her BPDish presentations over the years.  I have become much more self aware as I've gained knowledge and really tried to tune in to me.

So... .I'm pretty good at understanding where I am at right now.  So... .I know my "capacity".  I'm also quite aware of my wife's "appetite" to consume my "capacity". 

As I see my wife's "appetite" outstripping my "capacity" I actually "worry" less about it.  Rather I acknowledge it, take action to protect me and let life happen.

Note:  First time I've ever tried to describe it that way... .makes sense to me.  Very curious to see if others are like "do what?" or "get it".

Baby carriage caper:  I'll make a point of bringing that up to P.  I don't think I have ever mentioned it to her.  Will be interesting to see what she says.

In both situations someone wanted something from me.  That someone was being difficult.  I clearly laid out a pathway they could both follow to get what they wanted where I would also be happy.

More of a negotiation point of view.  I had made a determination that I would define my involvement in ways that I would exit the "transaction" in an acceptable way.

The big difference was that the buggy lady had never dealt with me before in my life.  She obviously didn't think much of my methods.

My wife has been dealing with this type of thing for a while, no shock to her for me to do this.

Which does bring up another thing to discuss with P.  If I had done something "shocking" to my wife... .and handed over cash.  What is best way to do it... .best message to send... etc etc.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I've got to jump in on this because I was kinda shocked at how you added fuel to the fire about the church money situation. You've been so steady and even in your interactions and this struck me as a very nasty response from you. It surprised the heck out of me.

Regardless of how your wife is behaving, she and your children all need supper. (Maybe she's extra crabby because she's hungry. Maybe she's perimenopausal and her moods are a bit out of control--she's at the age when this can start happening and some women get very emotional with "no good reason"--and of course she's BPD.)

For you not to give her money to provide dinner to your children seems like a violation of a very important parental and spousal agreement. She was already upset and to not be able to pay for her and her children's meals was undoubtedly humiliating and she might have needed to lie and say she forgot her purse. (And lying in church... .) THIS SEEMS LIKE A VERY UGLY POWER PLAY ON YOUR PART.

Yes, she was super nice later, but did it occur to you that this might be a "false niceness," the niceness of a captive to a master?

I was married to a very dominant man who used these sort of power plays against me. It's vile and repercussions follow. It's unlikely she will forget this and possibly she will be planning her revenge.  

[KateCat]

Baby carriage caper:  I'll make a point of bringing that up to P.  I don't think I have ever mentioned it to her.  Will be interesting to see what she says.

It's a good one to bring up. The psychologist is watching you and listening to you. That is her training. She figured out your wife in a speedy manner, and she's zeroing in on you too.

I admire your ability to "tell all," because I remember how uncomfortable I felt when doing this with a psychiatrist. They really don't want you to hold back or to attempt to appear as reasonable or adult, or be anything other than just your stark ol' self.

That is how they can best help their clients. It really is an "analysis." And self-protective narrative on the part of the client is a waste of time, in my experience.

[formflier]

An interesting observation was given to me by the P yesterday.

She asked me to be less scrupulous in my dealings with my wife... .and life in general.  She said that I thought of others "too much" and sent them so much detail/information in an effort that they would have all the information that I would want to have if I was in their shoes, that I was actually clouding things up... .making it more confusing.

I was making an assumption that they would want to know what I would want to know.

At the same time I was setting myself up for a big fall from my wife or those that would attack my "honesty" or "scruples". 

Much better strategy to send over the highlights and make sure others know there is more info and I am available to share it.

How I practically put this into action is on tap for future sessions.


FF

[formflier]

While my P has never severed in the military, she has done extensive training (continuing ed stuff) on military families and specifically members that have served a long time.

She shared an article with me the other day that emphasized the importance of a civilian provider recognizing that I am from a "distinct subculture". Then she "flipped" the lesson to make sure that I understood that I am not like the vast majority of the population.  Not in a judgmental right or wrong way, but just to acknowledge a truth.  I have had experiences that most haven't and I need to take that into account as I am evaluating how I interact with the world.

While veterans are not a monolithic group, they do constitute a “distinct subculture” based on—among other things—shared language, shared beliefs, values, and behavioral norms, and shared training and socialization experiences (Strom et al., 2012). Military service is a significant dimension of personal identity. To prevent misunderstandings and misperceptions and to build effective working alliances, mental health professionals should apply principles of cultural competence to their work with veterans, striving for greater awareness, knowledge, and skills, and examining their own assumptions, attitudes, and biases about this population. This is particularly important in psychotherapy, given that a strong client-therapist alliance is one of the best predictors of successful treatment outcome (Duncan, Miller, Wampold, & Hubble, 2010).
 
Strom et al. (2012) summarized a number of cultural considerations for clinicians and trainees working with veterans. Factors that should be incorporated into assessment, case conceptualization, and treatment include: branch of service; occupational specialty; active vs. reserve status; rank; cohort differences (e.g., Vietnam era vs. OEF/OIF era); and number and nature of deployments, if any. All of these factors convey critical information about stressors veterans have been exposed to, the intensity of their socialization experiences, and the complexity of their reintegration experiences.   Strom et al. also emphasized the importance of understanding common, and dearly held, beliefs and values among military veterans. These include: prioritizing the mission and the welfare of others above oneself; placing great importance on discipline, hierarchy, order, and rules; and remaining stoic in the face of very distressing circumstances.

FF

[KateCat]

Hmmm, something tells me it won't be like pulling teeth to get you to continue with this psychologist.  Truly a godsend.

[formflier]

These include: prioritizing the mission and the welfare of others above oneself; placing great importance on discipline, hierarchy, order, and rules; and remaining stoic in the face of very distressing circumstances.

Cat Familiar,

Hey... sorry to stir the pot with you and dredge up nasty old memories.  I do see your point of view.

I completely see how my wife can see it as "being controlled"... .there is validity to that view as well.

In my heart of hearts... .I was not doing this to be "mean" to my wife. (this being letting her know how you get money from me).

I do see how a reasonable conclusion is that my goal was to "be mean".

I see one of my roles is maintaining a structure for "how things work" in my family... .and 100% certain that my role for myself is to define my structure.

So... .when my wife is being a grump and demanding money my thoughts were "Wow... .she is outside of the structure of how things are done.  It's dangerous for her to be out there (me thinking of her).  I need to let her know where she is and define pathway back to structure"'

Once I felt comfortable in my mind that she understood where she was and the pathway back to structure... .the choice was left with her.

The old me would have said "my wife is outside of structure and I'm going to run across the battlefield to carry her back to safety"  Then would have thought I was doing good to carry my wife kicking and screaming back to "safety".

And... .last... .my P would also exhort me to chill out about "my need to be understood".  Look at the effort I put into the post above so that Cat Familiar would understand I'm not an evil ogre. 

Nod... .smile... . 

In true southern fashion... especially from the women.  "Bless his heart... FF is just not getting it."

FF






 

[formflier]

Hmmm, something tells me it won't be like pulling teeth to get you to continue with this psychologist.  Truly a godsend.

To keep seeing her... .very easy.

To apply lessons and see actual change in FF life... .well... .I am trying.

Sigh...

FF

[KateCat]

But this too is an essential realization, I think. Part of the mindfulness necessary to do this work.

I don't think the psychologist could do this work with you without 100% of your willingness to self-examine. Your situation is unusually complicated, with such a large family, and the problems are so ingrained that it would be difficult for you to even see most of them without expert outside counsel.

[Notwendy]

FF - I see your response to "outside the structure" as controlling.

You two are married, and while one should not be abusive, being at one's best all the time with one's spouse isn't realistic.

Your wife has BPD, and she has 8 kids, and even a mom with any number of kids can have a bad day.

So, you came home and saw she was having a bad day. The way she reacted to you made you angry because you don't want to be treated that way. And now, war is on... .
 
From that point, it is war and in  war, one fights to win. You won. And you just blew up your marriage.

We used to have such battles, with my H fighting to win, and you know what? He won. Why? because he who has the money has the upper hand, and if you use that power play, the result is that the one who is scared for the welfare of the kids will do what it takes to survive.

So, you got your pride, your structure, your control, and IMHO did some damage.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I too have been a menopausal woman with kids and if my H dropped me off at a church supper with no money and I expected to feed the family there, I would have considered telling him not to bother to pick us up- except for the fact that the kids and I needed him- and I would have just behaved for their sake. But that isn't the kind of love a man wants from his wife. It is just control.

My guess is that they didn't go hungry and you knew it, so you could use this to make a stand. I don't believe you would really let your kids go without supper. I have never seen a church not feed someone at a church supper. If a member showed up and didn't have a donation, I would expect they would send a check later- but would not be turn them away. If a stranger showed up and didn't have money, you are supposed to feed the stranger and the poor. So they did eat. The money was not for your wife, but the church. A couple of times my kids "crashed" a church supper with their friends. They were never turned away. We just sent  a donation later.

I hope this doesn't sound like a gang up FF, it is said out of concern. For years, my H also won the battle, but nearly lost the marriage. Some of this may not be all about BPD. My H comes from a military family, relatives wounded in battle, and they fight to win and fight to the finish. I hope you can see that battle tactics don't work well in marriage.

[formflier]

Your situation is unusually complicated, with such a large family, and the problems are so ingrained that it would be difficult for you to even see most of them without expert outside counsel.

Yep... .she expressed the same feeling.  Said she enjoyed working with me... .but from a professional sense was "worn out" after our sessions.

She then pivoted and said  "I only know too well what it is like to personally live with this... ."

FF

[KateCat]

Exhausting.

I agree 100% with what Notwendy is kindly continuing to emphasize. There is no way forward with a battle-stance on your part.

[Cat Familiar]

In my heart of hearts... .I was not doing this to be "mean" to my wife. (this being letting her know how you get money from me).


I really didn't think you were trying to be "mean."

It's just that your refusal to give her money to feed your family seemed so hierarchical and representative of archaic toxic masculinity. The message it sent was that "Unless you are nice to me, I won't take care of your and our children's needs."

I know you don't mean that or believe that, but women have had many experiences throughout their lives of men behaving in a controlling manner and from the outside, that's what it looked like to me, and it appears that I'm not the only one who noticed this.

I understand the need to not be overly involved in worrying about someone's thoughts and feelings, as your psychologist mentioned "being less scrupulous in dealings with your wife." This is a lesson I'm having to incorporate as well with my husband. That said, I know that hunger is a huge trigger for him. He will become rapidly irritable and unreasonable if he's hungry. When that happens, I now don't take his remarks to heart and I realize that he just needs to eat something and get on an even keel, and he does.

Not having the life experience of a forty-something woman with rapidly changing hormones, you can't possibly imagine how emotionally out of sorts that can make women. (I can't either because luckily I didn't have to endure much of that.) However, I did observe the crazy emotional out of control swings some of my friends have had due to the approach of menopause. I remember having a fairly routine phone conversation with a friend when she suddenly started sobbing uncontrollably and her husband had to get on the phone and explain that this was happening frequently and had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Another friend came unglued in a restaurant. Neither of these women have personality disorders--it was just a function of fluctuating hormones. So that is something that I want to caution you about.

"Wow... .she is outside of the structure of how things are done.  It's dangerous for her to be out there (me thinking of her).  I need to let her know where she is and define pathway back to structure"'


This is military thinking, very black and white. And hierarchical. You had the money. She didn't. She was your subordinate in this instance. You were withholding the funds for basic needs, not only for her, but for your children.

You see this as a boundary. I see it as being unkind.

[formflier]

Notwendy,

I do see that.  But... .just like the P has admonished me to realize "this is the woman you married".  I am the the man she married.

If you walk into the supply department and demand things and refuse to follow the supply departments procedure... .to expect to leave with your supplies is not reasonable.

My responsibility is to make sure the procedure is known.

You have no idea with how much trepidation I write this... .

I do, from time to time let my kids choose to go without supper (or other meal).  Yes I try to influence things so it doesn't get to the point of a direct confrontation where such methods are needed.

So... .kid says "I'm not eating that... .make me something else... ." (yes you can hear other kids gasp) will result in an explanation of "that's your dinner... .I hope you make a wise choice."  Then switch to another topic.

So... .I will go out of my way to make sure that behaving child gets a dinner they are really happy with (I'll honor good behavior) and will be exceedingly obvious that bad behavior is not rewarded.

FF

[KateCat]

I missed Cat Familiar's first post to this thread and now read her additional contributions here.

I share the sense of shock she expresses at your actions during this latest conflict with your wife. And so feel that it is a perfect conflict to explore in real depth with the psychologist. This is red meat for her analysis.

Everything about this episode. All the follow-ups JADEs you have now given here. Even the fact that your moniker on this forum is "formflier."  )

Hang all this laundry out. It seems that the psychologist is close enough to you in values to be the guide you need.

[HopefulDad]

Throwing in my 2 cents... .

I see exactly where Cat and Notwendy are coming from as I also saw part of this as a power play on FF's part.

But I can relate to FF's situation in that his wife snapped at him in front of the kids and this simply can't go on.  He's kind of teaching his kids that it's okay to yell at people to get what you want if he gives her the cash.  From that standpoint, I'm glad he did what he did.   

Lots of gray area and ultimately can't fault or praise FF on how the situation was handled.

[KateCat]

But I can relate to FF's situation in that his wife snapped at him in front of the kids and this simply can't go on.  He's kind of teaching his kids that it's okay to yell at people to get what you want if he gives her the cash.

It's a terrible situation. Formflier, do you have any sense yet if your psychologist believes you can fix this from inside the marriage?

[Notwendy]

It's difficult. I see it from both sides having lived with BPD mom and wishing Dad would have put his foot down more. I also experienced an H being IMHO controlling and while it got him the control he liked ( a Stepford wife basically- who only complied to keep the peace and out of fear) he didn't have a real wife or one who loved him like he would have wanted.

You got your wife, and she got you, I get it.

You can discipline your kids however you like, but I hope your church doesn't turn away hungry people because that just seems against the spirit of the church. I know it can't feed the whole town without some means of financial support, but I hope they fed your family.

[empath]

If you walk into the supply department and demand things and refuse to follow the supply departments procedure... .to expect to leave with your supplies is not reasonable.

My responsibility is to make sure the procedure is known.

I'm sure that you know this... .   a marriage is not a business arrangement or a contract. While it might be perfectly appropriate to not give money to a business person who is being demanding and crabby, it is not always appropriate to do the same with a spouse who is doing the same thing.

Secondly, your children did not do anything to be left without money to buy dinner. This isn't the same as the kids who decide that they don't want to eat whatever you fixed; in that case, their actions have consequences for them. In this case, your wife's actions affected the children as well.


One of the things that my h has said is that he sometimes thinks that if he can explain the situation enough, I will agree with him. This results in very long explanations on his part, repeating the same information multiple times. Regardless of how many times he repeats and gives details and how he feels, I might still disagree with him.


Do you think that you might have played into the "FF is bad" tape that your wife has?

[formflier]

I intellectualy understand how all of these options make sense.

When your world gets small and the pressure is on my ability to evaluate these other things gets smaller... .you go with what you know.

I know that no good comes from abandoning structure.

I also know from experience that acts of kindness or grace are usually enabling and exacerbate bad behavior.  Not always... .but usually.

Go with what you know.

FF

[MaybeSo]

To me, it sounds like you were 'triggered' by your wife. In that context, it would be your job to manage your own triggers.  It's not your job to try to manage or control your wife's tone of voice.

The way it ended up being approached, best I can tell, was an attempt to manage her ... .Give her a snack, hope it  'calms her down'  or hoping that with snack offering she will move into a different state like 'appreciation' instead of having the experience she was having which was pissy/harsh tone  (again, managing her means trying to change her state instead of focusing on managing your own state/triggers directly). 

When attempts to "manage her state" didn't work as you anticipated and she was still pissy... .you got even more triggered.  This resulted in refusing to provide money from wallet for dinner and you left again and missed a meal with her and kids and they didn't have cash to pay for meal (but worked it out on their own, anyway, good for them.) 

It seemed to have not escalated in the end, but, honestly I'm surprised.

People have their own experiences.  In my opinion, it is our job to be clear on our own triggers and to keep working to manage our own triggers, and stop trying to manage others. 

There is a quality to this that does bring in the same kind of rationale that was used with the baby buggy incident.  Many, many reasonable folks on this forum found your approach to be unproductive and unnecessarily provocative in the buggy incident. It's food for thought.

In many homes, someone walked in the door and heard a partner use a frustrated/harsh tone at the end of a busy day and didn't:

-Personalize it.
-Become as triggered by it or if they did get triggered owned it 100% as THEIR trigger and their responsibility.
-Adhere to a internal narrative that led to a role of victim or persecutor or rescuer vis a vie a story about how someone shouldn't be having the experience/tone they are having and it's your job to make it stop or else.  Stay off the drama/control triangle and accept (radical acceptance) that this person is having their own experience.  Period. If it bothers you or brings up anger, tension, anxiety... .that's your job to manage.  If she's spilling blood of course, you would take action, but this is 'tone of voice' we are discussing right now. 

One way to manage our own triggers (besides just leaving)  is to challenge some of your own "thoughts and beliefs" ala CBT, narrative therapy, rational emotive behavior therapy, DBT,  etc etc etc.  We get ourselves into trouble by getting overly attached or rigidly attached to every thought or belief we have as though it's concrete and 100% true at all times and for all situations.

Another person's tone of voice doesn't HAVE to tell a story about disrespect toward you or anything else, unless we choose to tell ourselves that story and choose to believe that narrative/story/thought/belief no matter what.  This is why therapy is SO hard.  It makes you question yourself, your thoughts, beliefs, patterns, assumptions. People find it uncomfortable.  Yup.     

We all come from cultures and environments with rules/attitudes/values/behaviors that may suit us or work well in one setting, but not be as effective or productive in another setting.

The litigators job is to argue his point to win in court.  "Warfare".  That same tact used in a intimate relationship would be the kiss of death.  The relationships would be "structured" perhaps but also it would be controlled, possibly be felt as abusive, cold and eventually... .probably dead.

For me, the key is flexibility of response given the situation, environment, etc. and a focus on managing self.

[empath]

Well... .  bless your little heart.

[chump]

I'll admit to being baffled by the pushback on the money issue. FF, I understand your wife works, has some kind of income, is capable of planning for the need for cash for the church supper. I think it's a perfectly reasonable boundary to quietly withdraw from a person who is being confrontational, provocative, b___y, whatever. Simply don't participate.  I wouldn't hand cash to someone who was being disrespectful to me.  If you then began insulting her, fighting back, feeding into the drama, then yes, I'd be critical of that, but to simply drop your end of the rope, withdraw and return later makes complete sense to me.

I wonder if this is a little gendered?  If a man was being demanding with a woman, maybe for money, maybe for affection (or more), and doing it in an aggressive, confrontational way, I'm pretty sure most people would support a woman in her right to set a boundary and take a step away from that situation.

I just don't see how you harm a person by simply temporarily withdrawing from the situation.  I see how a pwBPD would PERCEIVE that as harm, or abandonment, but I'm surprised by the pushback here.

Chump

[formflier]

It's not your job to try to manage or control your wife's tone of voice.

Correct... .I 100% agree.

www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/the-reactions-that-can-make-or-break-a-relationship.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo

It is my job, IMHO, to appropriately show that I am "bidding" or "leaning in" to my wife.  That was the pretzel.

Basically... I told her in a "light way" (as opposed to a dozen roses in a card... .which would have been over the top)... .I like you... I'm for you.

There was nothing... .zero... .in her demeanor that indicated any appreciation.  Anger and contempt were showing (IMO).

  This resulted in refusing to provide money from wallet for dinner and you left again and missed a meal with her and kids and they didn't have cash to pay for meal (but worked it out on their own, anyway, good for them.) 

It's interesting to see what details people pick up on and what people omit.

There was no refusal... .

There was clarity in how the cash leaves my wallet.  Nothing new there.  

Other people can interpret it all they want in other ways.  If you don't put money in the coke machine and then rage at it and hate it because a coke didn't come out... .it's not the coke machines fault.

Yes... .an extreme example... .but I think there is validity there.

Sunday night was the start of the latest round of "open warfare" where there was little evidence of trying to hide her contempt for me in front of kids... .or in private.  

So... .did I hope a pretzel or the other nice things I tried would break some ice... sure.  Was there emotional involvement... .sure.  

Did emotions drive my decision... .I would say not.  If I was inconsistent about doing things in the face of blatant disrespect... .then I think an argument could be made... .that it was a decision based on a trigger, vice something I've thought about.



FF

[formflier]

 FF, I understand your wife works, has some kind of income, is capable of planning for the need for cash for the church supper.

She pays... .roughly... .1/4 to 1/3rd of the time at church.  Almost never by agreement ahead of time.  We have large family and sometimes kids need to go potty on the way in... .sometimes I take them... .sometimes mommy does.

In football... .this would be an audible.  It just makes sense at the time.  So... .I come into gym (where we eat) with a kid or two in tow and my wife and other kids are getting food and drinks out.  Usually my wife will say... I've already paid.  Occasionally... .hey... .can you go pay... you owe them (fill in blank).

I'm a "southern gentleman" so I hold doors, chairs and that kind of thing.  Granted... .when kids are around... .that can slide based on childcare needs.  In other words... .hold a door or chase a kid down... .you chase the kid down.

On a date night with my wife and I, she will usually sit in her car seat when we stop and I walk around and open the door... .etc etc.  Sort of an "unwritten contract".  I teach my boys and my girls the same thing.

Back to money thing.  She has her own job... .her own account that I have no access to.  I contribute money to that account as well.  How she spends that money is her business.

So... .all of the money she makes goes into her account and some of mine.  I have no oversight nor do I want any, of that account.

I have my own account.  

We have a joint account that household expenses are paid from.  I contribute 100% of money to that account.

Does my wife pay for things for the family from her account.  Yes she does... .regularly.  I thank her and show appreciation when she does and I become aware of it.  

When she has asked for additional funds for things and is pleasant (or better)... .it is rare that she is ever turned down and when there is a turn down I make sure and give or show a reason other than (I don't like it).  Go through compromise steps... .etc etc.

If she has asked for funds because she deserves it, or any kind of threat... .disrespect... .imagine dysfunctional behavior.  I have a hard time remembering any time in the last year or two that I have said yes.

Sure... it's an unwritten contract, but a familiar one to the relationship.

Just to give a little bit of a big picture view of money, as opposed to the "soda straw" to this one event.

You may not like my methods... .but I do believe I am consistent.

FF

[Notwendy]

Did they get to eat at  the church? I sure hope the church let them eat.

[formflier]

Did they get to eat at  the church? I sure hope the church let them eat.

I have no idea.  I don't plan to ask.

I would be shocked if church denied them... .bit that really wasn't a large part of my thinking. 

FF

[empath]

FF, have you read Leslie Vernick's books on marriage?

[formflier]

FF, have you read Leslie Vernick's books on marriage?

Yes... couple of them.  The last "reading assignment" that the BC gave us was Vernick's book on

"how to act right when your spouse is wrong".  Good book.  I devoured it quickly... .read it a few times.  Wife apparently went about a 1/4 of the way and quit.  I've tentatively asked a time or two if she wanted to discuss it... .no desire at all.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307458490/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I've also read

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307731189/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0307731189&pd_rd_r=13MCPFE5XZW0RWR1Y0PT&pd_rd_w=Pjswf&pd_rd_wg=Ox5uG&psc=1&refRID=13MCPFE5XZW0RWR1Y0PT

But it's been a while.  Almost a year.  I remember shaking my head through most of it... .and doing some adjustments to "find my voice"... .

Empath,

Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?


Personally... .I'm really attracted to Townsend and Cloud in Boundaries series.  My wife hates them... .even though she initially thought it would be great idea and pushed... .(until doing Bible study and started reading... )

Each person defines themselves... .which defines responsibility... . In that light... I'm responsible for defining my wallet.  If my wife wants to "come inside my boundary" and get something from the wallet... .she knows she is "inside" my boundary and should "respect" that.


Same is if I wanted to get something from her purse.

I get it that my couple lines are a bit simplistic... .but you can see where my mind goes.  To try to get full nuance of my thoughts would take too much space...  

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I really get why you wouldn't want to hand over money to someone who is treating you poorly. And she could have planned to have adequate funds for dinner for herself and the children. That she didn't seems to indicate that she planned on you being there and providing money for everyone.

I think what is concerning to me about your response to her, FF, is that it appears that you are more focused on winning a battle, rather than focusing upon the direction the war between the two of you is going, and it does appear to be a war.

As HopefulDad pointed out, it's totally inappropriate to be snapped at in front of your children. Yet from another perspective, might not a child feel insecure that Dad can deny Mom funds for their dinner? I don't think that's modeling healthy behavior for your children either.

My thought is that by being so rigid about being treated with respect and that her voice tone was inappropriate and that she showed no appreciation for you doing a kind turn for her, you are undermining your marriage.

I learned to "toe the line" with my ex, but obedient behavior does not equate to love. The more I felt that he manipulated me, the more I was "radicalized" and grew to hate him. That your wife could suddenly be warm and compliant makes me wonder if this stems from insecurity. Seldom does it seem that a pwBPD can recognize and admit to their own faults.

[Notwendy]

I think if it was just one woman saying what some of us are saying, then it would be easy to dismiss it as just one person's opinion. Yet several women are expressing a similar response. This also happened with the stroller situation.

I see your point of view, FF, but your wife isn't a general on the other side. She's a woman, and even though she may have BPD, would it make sense to look at things from a woman's perspective? Some of us are expressing how it feels to be on the receiving end of that kind of behavior.

Your wife said " you should be kind to me" but you were too angry to hear her.

When we are powerless- we fight back in other ways. For me, I just faked being nice while for the sake our survival, but I didn't feel any of it. This too was damaging the relationship.

You did win this war "FF" outright, but your wife has other ways. Now I don't have BPD, but if I did, I might be doing some of the things she is doing- like telling the church people things about you, breaking into your e mail. You are overtly winning, but I think she has her own way of fighting back. However, since you have the power, I don't see this stopping until you choose to lay down arms.

[KateCat]

On this evening you describe, a struggling family almost made it to a church dinner together. I refuse to believe you feel good about your part in what happened instead, formflier.

[Aussie0zborn]

What a horrible situation you've allowed yourself to be in. I see a few mistakes here due the conditioning of the NON in becoming a servant and punching bag... .

Pretzel is a treat for mum? What about the kids? Treats are for kids FIRST, adults SECOND. You said no to the kids when they ask for pretzels, she however shares with the kids and they thank HER because she said YES and the nasty guy in you said NO. You bought them, she shared with the kids, she got the kudos. Think about what this example means... .she is on a pedestal and gets worshipped. She has probably made it known that she is more important than anyone else in the family and that her feelings and wishes override everybody else's and you're feeding that.

Snapping at you in front of the children is probably the norm and this would have been established a long time ago. My observation is that this is often done to show everybody around you that you are useless, mean and nasty and that she suffers by being with you.  I mean... .you wouldn't give them money for food and I'm guessing you did that in front of the kids and then went off to sulk. What do you think she said to the kids at that point? That you're a great guy or that you're a useless piece of sh!t ?

The best part of your story is that she then sends you a text full of manipulations and twists. ":)id something happen at work today darling that you didn't tell me about?" See how it's all "your fault"?

It seems me that you are too far gone and any attempt to balance the relationship and maintain your ground will be the onset of WWIII with a very negative outcome for you.

Do you have any plans, strategies?

[formflier]

 I don't see this stopping until you choose to lay down arms.

To be clear... .years ago I laid down arms.  "It" got much worse and I think contributed to "feeding" the monster that I am not a person but an object that she can abuse and will still "perform" to her whims... .regardless of her behavior.

Relatively speaking... ."this type of thing" from me... .IMO has resulted in better behavior from my wife (relatively speaking).  

Provide a consistent structure for how the world works... .and let my wife choose to operate within that structure... .or run outside that structure and do her own thing.

I do think that it helps to see a woman's perspective and I value that.  I do hear it.

I heard my wife  If "hearing" is defined as doing or acceding to what they want... .well... .I reject that.  

I will tell you that I have talked with P ... .actually she has talked more to me... .about having "emotional agility"... .or working on having more of that.  We practice it often.  Perhaps I'm somewhat better.  

But... that would be for issues "on the periphery" vice core issues.  Maybe eventually I'll be able to do it with core stuff.

Core stuff would be

Threats
Blatant disrespect
Health and safety issues.

Basically things in my mind where "clarity" is more important.  Times in the past where I tried to be "kind"... .the clarity got really messed up.  Struggling to think of an example... .I guess I'd have to go back about 3-4 years when my wife wanted to pack a bunch of kids in back of a pickup truck and send them across town (not rural) with my oldest at the wheel.

I was gentle in telling her and explaining that it wasn't a good idea.  It happened anyway... .police pulled them over... .

My wife "dodged" with some validity because I didn't say no... .I just "recommended".

Anyone think my "nos" get confused now in the relationship... .?  

Please don't take that last sentence in a "punishing" kind of way.  My no means no.  Men and women alike need to have a "no" that is respected.  

FF

[formflier]

On this evening you describe, a struggling family almost made it to a church dinner together. I refuse to believe you feel good about your part in what happened instead, formflier.

Feeling "good" is probably a poor choice of words.  Definitely.

By same token... .we don't want to teach people to feel "bad" for standing up for themselves or boundaries.

Let me think and see if there is a better word... .

I get what you are saying.  I'm NOT happy about it.  It is what it is. 

FF

[formflier]

 I mean... .you wouldn't give them money for food and I'm guessing you did that in front of the kids and then went off to sulk. What do you think she said to the kids at that point? That you're a great guy or that you're a useless piece of sh!t ?
 

Do you have any plans, strategies?

It's been happening since 2009... .which was about year 15 of marriage.  Long story.  Natural disaster was catalyst.  

My wife has... .from time to time... .told my kids that (your useless comment... .and other things)... .with no actual input from me.  

So yes... .I do have some affect on that... .but I'm not "responsible" for it.

The things my wife has said, emailed and otherwise said about me to others over the years is shocking... .it is what it is.

The current plan is to "hunker down" until legal stuff gets resolution (again long story)... .and then see where it goes from there.

Perhaps tomorrow my wife and I may do some marriage planning with my P... .we have an appointment with her... .we'll see if my wife shows.

There was no sulking.  I drove to a restaurant and enjoyed a meal by myself.  Called a friend of mine.  Yes we talked a bit about the incident, but this guy is familiar and I ask him to be deliberate about helping me steer mind/conversation to something else... .vice ruminating on "the issue".  Practically speaking that means we talked mostly about other subjects and a lot about him... .vice me.

When I say things about "deliberate self care"... .that is the kind of thing I talk about.  I have a "plan" or "structure" that I activate when things seem to be going haywire. 



FF

[ArleighBurke]

FF: You've certainly taken a lot of critism from this event. I hope that you can see that there are a variety of opinions, and whilst it is easy for us to pick at what you did - we didn't live it. It is up to you to decide whether there is wisdom in what we say or not.

Of course I also want to weight in  ... .
I do find your dealings with your wife heavy handed. That may work for you, but perhaps they work from fear and control rather than love and support. I am also in the military and have been told my approach to my wife and kids is too authoritarian.

If there were no kids involved, then denying your wife money at the church was probably okay. It was a slap in her face - and she would probably be embarassed to turn up to church with no money and no husband. However, you also have the kids to think about. Perhaps you could have given the money to the eldest kid instead - that's you not abandoning your responsibility for your children. Even if it was your wife's responsibility to pay "from her share", she didn't have cash on her - a minor lack of planning - completely predictable - she shouldn't be punished for that.

But I also wonder what YOU get out of not going - do you go to church FOR HER, or for you/kids/community. If you wife was out of town for some reason - would you still go to church with your kids? If you ONLY go to church for her, then not going with her is an appropriate action: you are withdrawing yourself from HER company because she is behaving inappropriately. But if you go to church for any other reason, then your actions were a PUNISHMENT to her - and not OK. The better action would have been to go to church, but tell her "I am finding your tone/manner/mood disrespectful. I will not talk with you until you choose to talk respectfully" - and go in with her and the kids.

We can have boundaries, and we can allow "natural consequences", but we should not punish.

Please keep posting. We are all learning from this.

[HopefulDad]

As HopefulDad pointed out, it's totally inappropriate to be snapped at in front of your children. Yet from another perspective, might not a child feel insecure that Dad can deny Mom funds for their dinner? I don't think that's modeling healthy behavior for your children either.

This is a problem.  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  And no matter which view you take, the kids got triangulated into their problems.  That's not good for their well being.

But that being said, I think I've been the only one to raise this issue in this thread.  It doesn't appear to be the focus of FF's concern.  I think it might behoove FF and his wife to discuss with his P how to avoid triangulating the kids into their issues.

[formflier]

One protest:

I didn't deny my wife money.  She had a choice.  For her own reasons... .she decided to stick with her manner of approaching me knowing that she wouldn't get the money.

I get it the impact is the same... .but for people to say I "denied" her money... .is (IMO) making me a bigger (fill in pejorative term) than I was.  Absolutely agree and was intentional about being "authoritarian"... ."clear"... .etc etc.

When I have done things before out of "love and support"... .usually it goes south (bad).  Not always.

I go to this church for several reasons.  Many times I have taken kids when wife is gone.  

In my r/s... .explaining my "findings" or "opinion" on my wife's actions is usually not good.  

I own my need for space and sometimes I will identify the issue... but I don't "assign" it.  

"I'm not able to continue this conversation while there are threats between us"

Vice

"I'm not able to continue this conversation since you threatened me... ."

Note:  This change was insisted upon by current P.  She is adamant the "issue" be identified... .but is not my job to "hand" it to my wife.  I identify the issue... .and I'm obvious about not picking it up and owning it myself... .then my wife has a choice of what... .if anything... .to do with the issue.

FF

[formflier]

 You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  

Exactly!  And in situations like that... .it is my recommendation to pick your poison and then be consistent.

If sometimes my wife (or anyone) was disrespectful and I would give money... .and other times I would keep my wallet shut.  Could you imagine the chaos?

Seriously... .think about the big picture.  With disrespect... .my wallet stays closed. (heavy handed... but simple)

As opposed to... ."disrespect is ok if at church... .but not ok in front of a restaurant.  It is not ok on Sunday because my wife has time to recover... .but I let her disrespect me on Monday and get money because I know she is going to work.  Yet on Tuesday I "clamp down"... .because you can't let these things get too far out of hand... ."

So... .it's a given that my kids have no idea what is going to come out of my wife's mouth... and her actions.  They adjust and pretend it's "normal"

Anyone think people have a hard time predicting what I will do?  Yes... .they may think I'm an a$$... .very similar to someone that may cuss a guardrail for "being there".  Especially if the ground just beyond the guardrail is flat and wouldn't have damaged the car.

I set a structure... .they can count of that.  It's got it's good points... .and it's bad points.

FF

[empath]

I didn't deny my wife money.  She had a choice.  For her own reasons... .she decided to stick with her manner of approaching me knowing that she wouldn't get the money.

Did you both plan for you not to go along with the family to church in advance? This wouldn't be a big deal if the kids weren't innocent victims of their parents' issues. She may have told the church people about your 'badness', too.

Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?

Yes, the idea of developing your CORE strength when we are dealing with destructive marriages.

I will be:
C = committed to the truth
O = open to feedback, instruction, growth
R = responsible for myself, respectful to others
E = empathetic and compassionate toward others without enabling abuse and disrespect

[formflier]

[quote
Did you both plan for you not to go along with the family to church in advance?

Normal is we are both there.  90% of the time this is normal.  Not always... but close.  To be fair... .we also didn't make advance plans for me to be ready for several days of "her behavior".  

Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?

Yes, the idea of developing your CORE strength when we are dealing with destructive marriages.

I will be:
C = committed to the truth     (the truth is well known about how to get money from me)
O = open to feedback, instruction, growth  (we have talked about this before... it's well known)
R = responsible for myself, respectful to others  (my wallet, my responsibility, I provided a pathway to solve the needs to others)
E = empathetic and compassionate toward others without enabling abuse and disrespect  (I did NOT do a good job of expressing empathy at that moment.  To be honest... .I was likely empathied out from several days of effort.  No chance I enabled disrespect

[/quote]

I'm totally open to having others "mark up" the CORE in the way that they see it.  In fact... .I would ask they do so.  

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Being the pugilistic b* that I am, and that I have to suppress this part with my BPDH, and knowing that you're a worthy arguer, I just cannot let this go without adding my two cents.

O = open to feedback, instruction, growth

It's my feeling that you give lip service to looking at this situation from "the woman's perspective" and your immediate response shows (to me, at least) that you are not spending much time "trying on" this situation outside your own reference point.

What I hear is JADEing about disrespect, voice tones, rules and regulations, not being consistent, etc. I do understand the need for boundaries and limits and respect.

What I don't hear is compassion for your children's possible humiliation from not having money to pay for their dinner. I don't hear understanding about your wife feeling embarrassment that could have been avoided. Like others have said, it is possible to say that being spoken to like that is unacceptable, yet take the high road and pay their way for the food they eat.

I know you're trying hard to establish boundaries with your wife, but your children might see your behavior as unreliable and abandoning.

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, and that's what those of us here are doing. In the heat of the moment, we all make decisions that may not be the best, had we had time to think things through. As much as I like to pat you on the back for how much improvement you've made in bringing your best self to the game, I'm finding that in this topic, it seems like you want to hold a hard line and not really examine how your behavior appears to others.

[KateCat]

Same here. I don't understand what seems to be an abandonment of hard work done on your part.

Instead, I see your kids, in the future, talking to friends, partners, spouses, or therapists and saying, of their chaotic childhood and battling parents: "It never ended, it never ever ended."

[Verbena]

I think you were right in removing yourself from her presence given how she was behaving; however, not giving her money was not a good call because it was for the children's food, too.  

Even with strong, consistent boundaries with your wife, the level of chaos in your home still seems very high.  I could only imagine how much worse it would be if you didn't have those boundaries. 

I just have to wonder at all the damage being done to the kids.  That's always been the biggest concern for me as I read your posts.  Would they truly be better off spending time with their parents separately? 

[formflier]

Quick update.

She comes out of kids rooms and I did a small "bid".  

She stops but doesn't speak.  One more small bid.  She turns to me but doesn't speak.

I up the ante and say " couch space available for snuggling".

She stood still for 5 min.  Then walked over to me.

We cuddled for 45 min.  No speaking.  She stopped snuggling... .spoke to a child... .back to snuggling.

Went to bedroom... .snuggle... .sex.  No speaking.

I said a couple small things... .then let it go.

The no speaking thing is new.

FF

[formflier]

Perhaps she is struggling with what she and her mentor talked about today.

I know the training... .it is about showing love and respect when you don't feel like it.

There is about zero chance mentor would encourage her in any of her recent behavior.

She seems fearful... .anxious.


FF

[formflier]

Head over to new thread.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299300.new#new

FF

Mods... .might want to lock this up

[Notwendy]

Several women, including myself, have expressed how we would feel after the incident before the church dinner.

It may be a clue to how she is feeling. Maybe she will tell you if you ask her.

Yes you got sex, but as I mentioned before, when one feels powerless in a situation, they can "behave" on the surface just to keep things as stable as possible and keep their feelings to themselves.

As I mentioned before, if I had gone to church with my family, expecting to attend as a family, and my H had dropped me off with the kids and no money, I would be feeling a lot of things, and they wouldn't include warm and fuzzy ones for my H. I'd be mad as heck if he then expected me to get all sexy with him, but at one time, I'd have done it anyway, because I was afraid that saying no would threaten the security of our family.

Did you show any concern for them? Did you even ask if they got something to eat? Consider the different thinking about what happened. One of the first things I asked was if they got something to eat, if your church treated them kindly. I guess that's a typical thing for a mom to think, but your wife is a mom and she may have been concerned for them too. Did you show any concern for them later? The kids didn't do anything "wrong" according to you.

I can imagine if it was me walking in there after that. I would have been in tears by the time I got in the door, probably cried through the dinner.

[Verbena]

I've never understood how the sex continues after these episodes as if nothing happened.

[formflier]

Mods,

If possible to move a couple of the entries above over to new thread... .to preserve the "all" button in this thread.

We'll keep going over there.

FF

[Harri]

Sorry, posted this on the wrong thread.  already copied and pasted to other.



Hey FF.  I am going to respond as a child of a UBPD mother who was very similar to how your wife sounds.  I will admit to being very surprised that it took about 5 pages of the other thread before someone actually wrote about the effect of these situations on the kids.  I am disappointed that the kids were only brought into the discussion as a way of proving the points being made and not as a primary concern from the beginning.  Yes, the focus changed... .eventually.  I am floored that not one person, either with kids of without kids has commented about the following:

1)  When you got home, you heard your wife speaking to the kindergartner with a booming voice.  You then proceeded to leave the home, leave the children in the care of a woman who is speaking to them in a manner you will not accept for your own self and seem to think you are teaching the kids proper behavior.  If that tone is abusive and unacceptable for an adult (that would be you FF) it is abusive and unacceptable for a child to be talked to in that manner.  It is unacceptable to remove yourself from such a situation and leave the kids with her.  IMNSHO of course.

2) at some point in the original thread (I think) you mentioned that you were setting a boundary and teaching the kids that your wife's behavior is unacceptable.  Well, as a kid of, I can tell you that the kids are quite possibly viewing you as abandoning them to the rages of your wife.  this is something I have read in some of your other threads (such as when she is raging and you lock yourself in a room) as well as threads by others here who are married to pwBPD (so you are not alone in this).  It boggles my mind.  Your wife engages in verbal abuse and parental alienation on a regular basis, often using her role as mother and her responsiblility as a person of God to justify her abuse as she tries to 'teach' the kids that certain things are not acceptable.  PA, as hard and as difficult as it is for an adult parent, is devestating to a child and it is child abuse.  FF, my concern is not about how you look in your kids eyes (tho it is important),  Rather I am concerned the kids are getting very bad messages and in essence are being left to deal with two parents who are exhibiting poor parenting behaviors.

3) You ask what else you could have done rather than leave them at the church.  One suggestion would be to turn the car around, drive home, get out and tell the kids you are going to BBQ for them instead and let your wife stay home or go to the church on her own.  another would be to drive home and ask any kids if they want to stay home with you or go with you to a different place for dinner, and let your wife take whoever wants to go to the church.  I am sure there are other options that would not have bewildered the kids, added to their possible perception of you as abandoning them to their angry mother and taking yourself to a place of safety rather than protecting them.

A point that is not about the kids but is still coming from an adult child who grew up in a similar abusive powder keg of a house, is the following:  I would have felt like you were setting me up to look like an ogre if you had bought me a treat and given it to me in front of the kids and then said no the kids could not have any because it was just for mom.  I swear fire would have been shooting out of my eyes at that point and I would have gotten out of the car, taken all the kids and marched them home or called a friend/cab at that point.  And I can promise you there would have been no apology and no sex.  

FF, I want to echo what someone else said.  I do not see this relationship changing for the better in a sustained and consistent way.  I feel for you, I really do.  Yu are in an incredibly difficult position and you are trying your best.  Your openness here is truly inspiring and I learn so much from you.  I respect you greatly and my greatest hope for you is that you get some peace and serenity on a consistent basis.  And yes, I do believe that is possible even with 8 kids!  I think that when you are alone with your kids, you provide them with stability and structure which is very important.  I understand that you are working on being more flexible and perhaps 'softer' with the kids and that is great too.  I just see the dynamic between you and your wife as highly damaging to everyone.

Wishing you peace.