Face to Face Meeting

[Depression = 72% of members]

She texted me last night,  asking if we could meet in person.  Other than the occasional school function, I usually only see her once every other week at church.  

Last month,  we finished up 3 months of weekly classes for "Bad Parents." I'm being cynical, but they said that almost 100% of guardians who completed the classes required no further services (family therapy). I was relieved to stop attending the weekly classes, sitting next to her like we were still a couple. We were the only parents who lived in different homes,  out of probably two dozen couples and caregivers who rotated through the two rolling sessions (meaning you start attending at week 3, say, and you attend 5 more weeks to finish,  so people were coming and going).

Basically,  she wanted to know when we could meet in person without the kids.  I asked why.  She responded to talk about the kids and get some things off her chest.  Uh-oh. More apologies, but not over the phone this time,  but in person?  I hope her T didn't put her up to this.  I feel used,  responsible for her feelings,  in advance.  Then again,  she's not responsible for my feelings of being used.  I agreed to the meeting.  Mod FOG. They are always fine with me,  but there are issues.  I need to reread the boundaries discussions.  I told my buddy at work,  who divorced a likely BPD wife 15 years ago,  and he said,  "tell her to talk to her therapist."

She asked me to watch the kids Saturday morning,  her day,  which is fine.  I'll always take any extra time with our children,  half of whose childhood was stolen from us due to her unwise choices.  And here we have the real root of my anger. I can forgive her for how she hurt me,  but the kids,  almost three years later still indicating that they want us back together,  still angers me.  Sunday,  :)4 said,  "you didn't want to be with Mommy anymore." Kind of out of the blue.  I responded that it was the reverse.  As my T commented about what my ex said about me,  "sure,  there's 15% truth to what she's saying about you, " I was so bayern down that it was more than 15% truth that I didn't want to be with her anymore,  before I found out about the other guy,  now the kids step dad.  

Is easy to see the "truth" of the other side (in my case because she was so open to talking about it at the time, and then two years later with the apologies through tears). Harder still to look at my own truth.  

[Turkish]

She texted me last night,  asking if we could meet in person.  Other than the occasional school function, I usually only see her once every other week at church.  

Last month,  we finished up 3 months of weekly classes for "Bad Parents." I'm being cynical, but they said that almost 100% of guardians who completed the classes required no further services (family therapy). I was relieved to stop attending the weekly classes, sitting next to her like we were still a couple. We were the only parents who lived in different homes,  out of probably two dozen couples and caregivers who rotated through the two rolling sessions (meaning you start attending at week 3, say, and you attend 5 more weeks to finish,  so people were coming and going).

Basically,  she wanted to know when we could meet in person without the kids.  I asked why.  She responded to talk about the kids and get some things off her chest.  Uh-oh. More apologies, but not over the phone this time,  but in person?  I hope her T didn't put her up to this.  I feel used,  responsible for her feelings,  in advance.  Then again,  she's not responsible for my feelings of being used.  I agreed to the meeting.  Mod FOG. They are always fine with me,  but there are issues.  I need to reread the boundaries discussions.  I told my buddy at work,  who divorced a likely BPD wife 15 years ago,  and he said,  "tell her to talk to her therapist."

She asked me to watch the kids Saturday morning,  her day,  which is fine.  I'll always take any extra time with our children,  half of whose childhood was stolen from us due to her unwise choices.  And here we have the real root of my anger. I can forgive her for how she hurt me,  but the kids,  almost three years later still indicating that they want us back together,  still angers me.  Sunday,  :)4 said,  "you didn't want to be with Mommy anymore." Kind of out of the blue.  I responded that it was the reverse.  As my T commented about what my ex said about me,  "sure,  there's 15% truth to what she's saying about you, " I was so bayern down that it was more than 15% truth that I didn't want to be with her anymore,  before I found out about the other guy,  now the kids step dad.  

Is easy to see the "truth" of the other side (in my case because she was so open to talking about it at the time, and then two years later with the apologies through tears). Harder still to look at my own truth.  

[valet]

You're super brave, Turkish. When I think about all the challenges you've faced navigating this, it's super inspirational. Keep up the good work.

As far as the meeting is concerned, I would feel that she'd owe me a more solid premise for meeting other than the vague one she gave you.

If she still needs to talk about the relationship she should be talking to her therapist. I don't think it's responsible of her to come to you as if you still had a romantic bond (that she herself played a big part in breaking).

I know what you mean when you say that it's hard to look at your own truth. That's the struggle though... .and that's why no one is perfect. What do you want to do here? Meet or not? Or ask for clarification then re-evaluate?

[Mutt]

I was relieved to stop attending the weekly classes, sitting next to her like we were still a couple. We were the only parents who lived in different homes,  out of probably two dozen couples and caregivers who rotated through the two rolling sessions (meaning you start attending at week 3, say, and you attend 5 more weeks to finish,  so people were coming and going).

Before I got divorced, I didn't see that there was a whole other side with families and parenting because I wasn't on the other side of the fence yet. How many of those two dozen couples may find themselves on the other side of the fence, like us, if you look at the divorce rates, I wouldn't feel ashamed of being on either side.

As far as the meeting is concerned, I would feel that she'd owe me a more solid premise for meeting other than the vague one she gave you.

You could meet and find out what she wants, if you think that she's overstepping boundaries, tell her what your boundaries are face to face and tell her to talk to her T, it should discourage her with coming to you in the future, you already told her, so if she oversteps your boundary then defend it.

[C.Stein]

Harder still to look at my own truth.

I feel compelled to ask, what is your truth?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Turkish, is it possible for the two of you to meet in a public place?  That way, it's easier to leave if things get tense.  Let us know how it goes.  LJ

[Turkish]

My truth is that part of me was relieved she left,  I was so tired of her,  I couldn't imagine another twenty years until the kids were grown,  much less retiring with her into old age.  Another truth is that me emotionally withdrawing triggered her.  Not excusing what she did,  but acknowledging my role.  I will of course meet her in a public place.

She came to pick up the kids after lunch.  S6 wanted to show her something on YouTube he was interested in (we watch it on the TV through the PS3). I had warned the kids that they needed to be ready to go when she came.  She asked to change D4, so she did it in the living room.  She said,  "you should open a window so it isn't so stuffy in here. " I have a small house.  Both the front and back doors were open,  and there was palpable airflow through the living room.  We're in between storms here so it's windy. S6 still wanted to show her something but I said "mommy needs to leave before she pisses me off." This is similar to what I got last week,  D4 smelled "stuffy," which she told me when we were outside with a breeze.  To her credit,  she said "sorry!  My bad habit."

Of what,  constant criticism about anything?  I'll update tomorrow.  Maybe it will be nothing and I'm making it out to be more than it will be. 

I have this fantasy about asking her to come over and help get the third room ready for our daughter,  because she really needs her own room now.  Painting,  putting a princess bed together,  putting decals on the walls and glow in the dark stars on the ceiling (I did the last one by myself in our son's room). Yet even if I got Merry Maids to disinfect the house,  I think she'd still criticize something and ruin it.  The little therapist on my shoulder keeps saying,  "stop expecting her to be someone she is not."

[C.Stein]

My truth is that part of me was relieved she left,  I was so tired of her,  I couldn't imagine another twenty years until the kids were grown,  much less retiring with her into old age.  Another truth is that me emotionally withdrawing triggered her.  Not excusing what she did,  but acknowledging my role.  I will of course meet her in a public place.

You know Turk, this is partly my truth as well.  As much as I may have loved her a part of me was relieved when it was over.  The anxiety, fear and stress of being in a relationship with her had been impacting me mentally, emotionally, physically for 2 years, the last 6 months being the worse by far with the addition of depression and I was exhausted in every conceivable way.  Her lack of concern and caring for my well being just drove that all home.  She took away my hope.  I also have no doubt that my emotional and physical withdrawal triggered her, but it will never excuse or justify her behavior/actions.  :)isorder or not, she knows the difference between right and wrong ... .and she chose wrong.

I have this fantasy about asking her to come over and help get the third room ready for our daughter,  because she really needs her own room now.  Painting,  putting a princess bed together,  putting decals on the walls and glow in the dark stars on the ceiling (I did the last one by myself in our son's room). Yet even if I got Merry Maids to disinfect the house,  I think she'd still criticize something and ruin it.  The little therapist on my shoulder keeps saying,  "stop expecting her to be someone she is not."

Maybe it is best to leave this a fantasy?  It is probably not worth the can of worms it would open.

[Mutt]

I have this fantasy about asking her to come over and help get the third room ready for our daughter,  because she really needs her own room now.  Painting,  putting a princess bed together,  putting decals on the walls and glow in the dark stars on the ceiling (I did the last one by myself in our son's room). Yet even if I got Merry Maids to disinfect the house,  I think she'd still criticize something and ruin it.  The little therapist on my shoulder keeps saying,  "stop expecting her to be someone she is not."

Sometimes I wish that I had some help from mom too with D10 because I feel like a fish out of water with some things.  I recall when I was shopping for girls clothes right after the split, D was 7 then and I was so frustrated because I didn't know what to buy for her with all of the different things like skirts, skorts, leggings etc... .Luckily I have my sister and my mom that I can fall back on, but I eventually figured it out. Do you have a female friend that could help with with the decision making and / or decorating D4's bedroom?

[Turkish]

She couldn't find anyone to watch the kids so we had lunch at a café. Part of it was she wanting to change S6's school.  I felt like saying that whatever school he was in,  she was going to find problems.  This was due to him peeing his pants last week in class.  I talked to the school secretary. They were working to find a solution, not mad. She's making drama.   A subject for the co-parenting board.  

We got the kids to her car.  Outside,  she told me the real reason she wanted to meet,  which sum up as she wanting to complain about her r/s. I don't understand if she's reaching out for help or just talking to the one person who gets it.  

Apparently,  he being sent to therapy, she continuing to see her T and whatever couples' counseling they were doing through the church haven't changed much.  She basically communicated that whatever he did angered her.  She said that his therapist called her at his behest.  She said it was told that someone had anger and abandonment issues.  I didn't get a chance to ask if that was her or him.  It started raining rather than lightly sprinkling.  

She said that she was. ... I can't remember the adjective, but maybe frustrated, or that she never understood that her choices affected so many people.  She mentioned the kids,  and she repeat the mistakes of her parents' marriage. She said she told her husband the reason she left me was because she saw herself being hyper critical and angry and she didn't want the kids to experience that.  This is a partial truth.  No comment upon the lack of wisdom and foresight that this dynamic would and will play out in any r/s she has. Awareness isn't enough.  

I said that if she needed to make an exit at some point,  that she needed a safety plan.  Yes,  I was blunt.  I didn't ask,  "are you still in love with him?" I know the answer.  She kind of looked at me and repeated what she told me on the phone last month,  that he believed marriage was for life and that he wasn't going to let her divorce him.  I know when she lies and exaggerates.  I believe he told her that. She paused.  I said,  "you feel trapped. " Yes.

I said,  regarding she being angry at what he does, that he is who he is.  He didn't change, she did.  I told her what my T said regarding her and me (he saw her twice before she quit), that as much as I disagreed with what she did,  she was still an independent agent,  free to do what she what she wanted.  I said that thinking like that helped me.

Then it started raining harder.  The kids were in her car.  I thought about offering her my rain coat, but thought better of it and didn't.  She might have complained about some smell since it's been in the cedar closet all year.

I drove up the freeway afterwards, in analytical mode,  trying to understand how this would play out,  and play out it will.  Neither of them has the wisdom to see this through.  Nothing she said indicates a positive outcome and the kids are in the middle of it.  My mind set was similar to if I were talking to someone here,  trying to distance myself emotionally not to inflame by relating to much and injecting my own pain,  but empathizing all the same based upon my experience (have I given away my trick?).

All in all,  I'd describe this as fascinatingly stupid.  Fascinating in that whatever arm chair pathologies I see,  valid or invalid,  play out.  I've been reading Dr. Craig Childress and his attachment based "pathological parenting" model of parental alienation.  It's playing out not with me,  but with the kids' step-dad vis-a-vis she replaying her childhood trauma. Stupid, in that the answers seem obvious to me.  The only answer I can control,  however,  is how I help our children.  

My thoughts are , I'm well aware of my rescuing tendencies.  On the other hand, I don't think she's capable of handling this and keeping the kids safe.  Her H first saw his T when he was arrested with the incident with his brother in May, before the recent incident where she punched him.  I feel that she's kind of at a loss where to go.  Like I said,  I'd treat her as a co-habitator, work on improving tools (but I get that she's punting almost everything into his court to fix,  like she did me,  her self awareness notwithstanding).  Keep safe as appropriate.  If we didn't have kids,  I wouldn't even talk to her. 

[Mutt]

I think that you have a good understanding of what's going on. I agree be careful of rescuing. I'm not positive of it what you have in mind is coaching? I was thinking what if the roles were reversed? Would she want to hear about your r/s if you treated her how she treated you? Probably not. She doesn't telegraph that she can put herself in your shoes but she probably has a lot going on inside and she's not aware of others around her, it sounds like she knows to a degree that she is short sighted with how her choices impacts others.

[C.Stein]

My thoughts are , I'm well aware of my rescuing tendencies.  On the other hand, I don't think she's capable of handling this and keeping the kids safe. 

I'm curious.  Do you feel obligated to be her sounding board/dumping ground with regard to her dissatisfaction with her current relationship? 

[Lucky Jim]

As much as I may have loved her a part of me was relieved when it was over.  The anxiety, fear and stress of being in a relationship with her had been impacting me mentally, emotionally, physically for 2 years, the last 6 months being the worse by far with the addition of depression and I was exhausted in every conceivable way.  Her lack of concern and caring for my well being just drove that all home.  She took away my hope.

Like what you're saying there, C. Stein.  I was together w/my BPDxW for 15 years...   After we separated, my primary emotion was relief, as you and Turkish describe.  It was peaceful to return home after work without the expectation of a confrontation.  I never seriously considered going back to what was for me an abusive situation.

LuckyJim

[Turkish]

Things got loopy today.  Got a call from a deputy,  my mother,  whom I haven't spoken to since mother's day,  off the rails. The usual accusations... .my ex is a piece of cake to handle compared to my mother,  but that's another story for another board. 

I think with regard to my ex,  I don't feel obligated,  so if you see my complaining they it's her or FOG, call me on it.  I realize that I am in complete control of my crisis here. 

Yes,  on the one hand I still feel like I want to help guide her.  If I engage further,  that's 100% on me.  I could say,  "talk to your therapist,  or your enabling friends." Still,  she volunteers way more than I would if I were in her place.  It's data.  No matter how goofy -nice her husband projects to the world, I saw through it before when meeting him.  I only pray that his love,  no matter how misguided,  for the kids,  keeps him from doing things even more foolish than he's already done.

I think back to what she told me while still living here,  "I need someone to lead me and guide me," the unspoken implication being that I failed.  I was shocked that she thought a 23 year old could be that for a 31 year old professional woman with kids.  Only this year did I find out he was 21 at the time. 

I'm not going to do anything proactive at this point,  like,  "when do you want to meet to talk more?" The kids were a little rambunctious today,  but they are,  only calming when I have them for a couple of days.  I ask them in general terms of everything's ok,  but they are 4 and 6. I'll continue to focus upon our family constellation of 3. The drama will come,  it's guaranteed. I'm trying not to worry about it.  Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[C.Stein]

I think with regard to my ex,  I don't feel obligated,  so if you see my complaining they it's her or FOG, call me on it.  I realize that I am in complete control of my crisis here.

I can see why you might put up with it in order to get an idea of what your kids are exposed to when they are with your exW.  I guess it comes down to how much do you really need to hear in order to make this determination?

[Reforming]

Sorry to hear about your mother

It's very a challenging dynamic. There's a fine line between modelling healthy behaviour and boundaries for her and your kids which is positive and helpful and rescuing which is not. Your thinking seems healthy and self aware.

Good luck

Reforming

[formflier]

Perhaps you can turn the conversation to a safety plan for your kids, vice a generic safety plan.

I totally get what you mean that if there were no kids, you wouldn't be involved.  You need to keep your finger on the pulse of this situation.

If there is a reminder that you need to keep "putting in her mind" is that it's not about her, it's about the environment that she is "choosing" for "our" kids. 

Like it or not... .there is a connection between you two.  I would take every opportunity to gently and repetitively define that connection.

Hang in there man... .looks like there may be a season of life coming where your plate is getting fuller. 

FF

[Turkish]

We all spent almost half the day together.  :)ental appointments for the kids,  a break where we had breakfast,  then a therapy appointment for our daughter. It was OK.  "Business" is how I look at it,  the business of raising the kids.  :)4 brought up an incident where I bought Mommy a pink iPad cover  (to go with the iPad I had bought her). My ex asked about that,  saying D was in mommy's belly when that happened.  No,  it was the last Christmas we had together.  :) was a baby.  This isn't the first time she's misplaced a year in the past.  My ex said that she remembers that,  and looked at me.  I looked away.  It was a potential angry incident which was only stopped when her future SIL called her out in front of the family,  "why are you mad?  He got you an iPad!" When I looked away,  she said,  "mommy was stupid back then." I didn't say anything.  The meal went on.  

Yesterday,  she called me to invite me to go to Disneyland with them this weekend.  Plane ticket,  park ticket,  and hotel free.  Her sister's baby daddy dropped out (he was coming from another state). I couldn't quite get if my Ex's husband was going.  It sounded non commital which is odd with a plane ticket.  I politely declined.  Today was OK hanging out.  

Yesterday,  I picked up D4 at S6's school.  She called me on the way to say they were running late,  complaining about our son asking her for school book money at the last minute.  I validated that it would be frustrating,  and said that we needed to sit down with him next time to have him fill things out the night before.  

I was in the school yard waiting and our son came shuffling in.  I patted him and asked if everything was OK.  No,  "mommy is mad at me about the books." I hugged him and sent him to class.  I would pick him up a few hours later.  

I got to the street and D4 ran to me,  jumped into my arms and buried her head in my neck. It was the opposite of what she usually does,  clinging to her mom,  not wanting to go with me. Her mom was still complaining about our son to me,  even though I had told her on the phone how to deal with it: put the ball in his court and tell him they'd do better next time.  Short. End it.  But she wanted to keep it going.  I well remember many school mornings where I was sent to school despondent over my mother's morning anger episodes.  

Maybe the trip will go well,  I hope it does.  I don't want to deal with walking on eggshells,  however,  awaiting a possible blow up, even if I'm stronger and being out of the r/s is a natural boundary (i.e., I don't have to go home to her).

It's a weird position to be in,  being painted whiter than my "replacement." Knowing her, I don't see that changing on their side.  A few people in my real life,  more than a few,  commented early on that she'd want to come back at some point.  This isn't that.  It's me serving her needs.  After the therapy appointment,  there was a pause where I could have hugged her after the kids were in my car.  We were talking about serious, emotional things during the appointment. The moment passed.  

If I were to summarize,  she wants me back only insofar as a role (or object) in the nuclear family which relationship she chose to "tank" as my T put it.  That there is something like parental alienation with regards to the kids step-dad coming from her is both sad and pathetic.  And here's a thought: how right is it to invite the ex on a two night vacation while husband probably stays home, especially given the extreme conflict between them over the last four months?  That doesn't sit right with me,  notwithstanding the conflict. I actually respect the fact of their marriage,  no matter how it came about.   

[Grey Kitty]

Geez, what a tangled web! Reminds me of something I once said to my wife... .that I couldn't be both her husband and her therapist. (At the time, I wanted to be a husband. Today I'm not looking to have either role.)

I have offered friends relationship advice before. (And even heard in response "Gee, my therapist said that too!" once or twice; I guess I learned a thing or two, many of them here!)

I gotta say that hearing your ex's relationship issues with your replacement or advising her there is ... .well ... .I dunno ... .asking for trouble? OK, listening and validating without offering advice seems pretty safe, 'tho I might want to steer clear anyways. At least go really light when it comes to offering advice!

Good to know that you aren't interested in or looking for a recycle now. And good that she's not *really* pushing for it, even if you are painted white. At least I hope she's not going to go there. (Yes, the Disney invitation seems like a horrible idea! Glad you didn't accept it.)

One question for ya--Besides the "work" aka coparenting with her, do you want anything? How far are you willing to go as far as being nice/generous/etc. to make the "work" go better?

[formflier]

I think the conversations should continue, but somehow work a "pivot" in there where Turkish asks "How does this situation affect our parenting?"  or "How does this affect our kids?"

I don't think he should be asking how "she feels" about it... .or "how it affects her".

Thoughts?

FF

[valet]

That is strange, Turkish.

I think you're on this one here. It's odd that she'd invite you considering the circumstances, but you good well know how this all works by now. My ex did similar things when I still talked to her. We'd hang out but she'd always be setting up other coincidental meetings on the side where another guy would show up. I thought it was awkward and a little disrespectful to everyone. But that's how it was... .

I like formflier's take, although it might be a little risky—by invoking her H into the conversation you might trigger something; it is a tricky subject to bring up. This is a pertinent question though, since for you this seems to be mostly about making sure your kids as raised well. What do you think?

[Turkish]

I think the conversations should continue, but somehow work a "pivot" in there where Turkish asks "How does this situation affect our parenting?"  or "How does this affect our kids?"

I don't think he should be asking how "she feels" about it... .or "how it affects her".

I think this is a good boundary,  and totally valid. 

GK- other than being firm a few times,  I've swallowed a lot and been patient.  I know she appreciates this,  because she is aware of things now,  and does have guilt (shame). Nothing good can come by triggering that further.  Her own mind punishes her enough.  I could certainly hurt her emotionally,  latching on like a lamprey to her shame and anxiety about being a good mother.  I'm not that person,  though I am certainly capable of that. 

valet- this is like the inappropriate contact she had with her previous bf when we first got together.  It's the inability to see what's proper insofar as another's feelings,  her H in this case. I could have accepted.  He might even had no problem with it.  Aside from being slightly afraid of me,  he likes me.  It's an odd situation to be in.  I'd have to try hard to make up the dynamics here if I were writing a drama. 

She and her H picked up the kids this afternoon.  She told the kids not to dirty the car since H had just detailed it.  I said that I should have him detail my car.  She said that he started a side business doing that and that I should ask him.  I asked,  "a car detailing business? " She said yes,  because he wanted to be an EMT  (emergency medical technician), but that only started at $15/hr and it wasn't enough.  I said that everyone started at "starting pay" and that I did,  too. 

When I met him last month,  he told me he was working to be a personal trainer.  The EMT thing is new.  I actually admire that,  the emergency rescue  progressions.  Then there's their MLM "business" where she told the T the other day she wanted to work at full time and quit her job to watch the kids more.  They're both lost,  IMO, adrift. I'm backing out of the room slowly... .

[formflier]

Sounds like they are both grasping at/for easy solutions. 

Although EMT is not "easy" it takes a while.

One of the frustrating things is when they (Bpders) say "All you have to do is... ." and something very complex and hard comes out in a minimalistic and "easy" way.  Of course, they aren't signing up for it, but they are convinced you should. 

Sigh. 

Sounds like you have a handle on it and are self aware.  Your "distance" to this issue will likely vary based on how you are feeling about it and perceived impact on kids.

Gently stating that boundary might also help both of them clue in to how their actions affect kids.

FF