I need BPD to be incurable

[Depression = 72% of members]

Well put Snowmonkey
I have read some stuff on sites for BPD sufferers and just as on here there are varied opinions usually dependant on the stage they are in of their treatment. Some are sad and horrified at the distress and pain they have caused those that loved them, some say that they hope one day to forgive themselves and be forgiven as they accept it was a mental illness that caused this. Some are angry and still in denial and vilify nons for not being understanding, in fact there is one thread were our site here has caused outrage and anger with statements like " who do they think they are these non monkeys talking about us as if we were monsters. It's all a mess. They are all there for a reason, the same as we are here, sadly my ex will never be on any site as he is one who will never ever concede that there may be something wrong with him.
I don't blame him, I can't, I still hurt and I do mourn the loss of someone I loved, who briefly loved me as much as he was able and is very very lonely. However I have let go. He is still in my thoughts, how could he not be, only time will take care of that but it doesn't now impede my progress of moving forward with my life. I wish that for all here and for all the sufferers of BPD. I wish a cure could be found, they would have to learn to deal with what they had done just as we have to learn and deal with why we allowed it to happen to us. You are doing well Snowmonkey, really well.   x

[Sadly]

Well put Snowmonkey
I have read some stuff on sites for BPD sufferers and just as on here there are varied opinions usually dependant on the stage they are in of their treatment. Some are sad and horrified at the distress and pain they have caused those that loved them, some say that they hope one day to forgive themselves and be forgiven as they accept it was a mental illness that caused this. Some are angry and still in denial and vilify nons for not being understanding, in fact there is one thread were our site here has caused outrage and anger with statements like " who do they think they are these non monkeys talking about us as if we were monsters. It's all a mess. They are all there for a reason, the same as we are here, sadly my ex will never be on any site as he is one who will never ever concede that there may be something wrong with him.
I don't blame him, I can't, I still hurt and I do mourn the loss of someone I loved, who briefly loved me as much as he was able and is very very lonely. However I have let go. He is still in my thoughts, how could he not be, only time will take care of that but it doesn't now impede my progress of moving forward with my life. I wish that for all here and for all the sufferers of BPD. I wish a cure could be found, they would have to learn to deal with what they had done just as we have to learn and deal with why we allowed it to happen to us. You are doing well Snowmonkey, really well.   x

[Skip]

You wrote this a while back... .

If she follows, adapts and gets better - share what you have with her. If she doesn't, leave her behind and keep moving forward."

To me, this sounds very much like something a counselor said to me. He has tried to get me to engage in the process of "differentiation", as explained by the psychologist Dr. David Schnarch. Hopefully, I can find renewed strength and follow through with that.

Building your recovery on the foundational belief that everyone's ex, child, parent, spouse is hopelessly incurable is not that. It's creating a false reality to cope with life. Many of the ex's here don't even rise to the level of clinical BPD", so in that sense, they are already cured. Studies show that upwards of 80% of people with BPD will drop out of the diagnostic range after 10 years - meaning not having 5 of 9 DSM criteria. One of our moderators is walking tall with her recovered 19 year old daughter. Do you need her to agree with this reality, too?

At a very basic level, you lost someone you loved. Worse yet, she exited the relationship and that level of rejection is extremely painful - most everyone here has felt that pain. Whether she was a member of Mensa or institutionalized in a mental ward, you would be feeling the same loss. The pain is inside you... .

There is a evolutionary reason that this hurts so much - there is a lesson to be learned about mating. It's important to learn it for you to grow and thrive.

Here is an article on differentiation: https://www.thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/differentiation-of-self/  You may not be ready for this right now, that's OK, but take 5 minutes to read it and plant that seed that you talked about last March.

We're all in this together.

[JQ]

  Valet / Skip, After getting to the other side of my r/s with my exBPDgf, I can say I am more empathic for her, my step mother, my step sister & 1/2 brother, "all BPD".  I certainly don't hate them, but I do truly feel sorry for them for they are very broken people with really no chance of maintaining a r/s with me or many others who have come in & out of their life.

  SnowMonkey, I have a very dear long time friend of mine who conducts training to staff on BPD & conducts therapy sessions for those who suffer from BPD with and without comorbidity's both one on one & group therapy.  She has told me they are very broken people. My research into everything BPD has led me to find multiple MRI studies by world renowned institutions such as Harvard Medical School & others that have said that the neuron highways within the brain have off ramps that don't connect to anywhere in addition to finding area's of the brain that have been retarded in growth, i.e. they're smaller than normal. I believe that it's a combination of events that causes BPD. It's a combination of the physical abnormalities & neuron highway off ramps that aren't connected, a traumatic event  or events early in their life, abandonment by a parent or loved one early in their life, hormones or lack there of and the inability to process all of it in a "normal" fashion. How could one not feel empathy / sympathy for a person who is so severely broken in so many ways. I actually started to feel more of it after my EMDR refresher training for the record.

In a good majority of what I read in the forums most of the stories revolve around a r/s with a BPD that ends after several months or a handful of years. In most of the cases, BPD behavior starts to present itself in the r/s within days or weeks.  I can't speak to the 80% of BPD's will dropout of the diagnostic range after 10 yrs of therapy as everyone is not the same as the other. If someone arrives on these boards after a BPD r/s that lasted only months or 2-5 yrs I would say that 10 years might seem like 3 life times to them.

There is a sliding scale for people who present with varying levels of DSM criteria. Some might present all 9 DSM criteria but on a scale of 1-10 might have 5-7 on the intensity level. Yet another one might present with 6 DSM identifying conditions but they might have the intensity level of 7-9 or 8-10. And as with any birth defect they present on other sliding scales for all the symptoms. Example, everyone born with cerebral palsy is not at the maximum level of diagnostics but present with different levels of the condition. The same is said for those with BPD who's neuro-highways off ramps & other brain abnormalities. Maybe one has 70% of the off ramps connected but another might have 90% or even 30% connected. It is a sliding scale which means different levels of management of the Cluster B Mental Illness with different methodologies of treatment. If someone has lets say 30% of the off ramps connected with 9 of the DSM criteria at 80-90% of intensity are they likely to be able to manage their Mental Illness. Most would say no. But if they have 75% of the off ramps connected with 6 DMS criteria at a intensity level of 45-55% then it might be possible to "Manage" the mental illness. TO Snow MOnkey's point here, BPD is NOT curable but in SOME cases can achieve some level of "Management" of the mental illness which in some cases SOME people would say it's a "cure".

I certainly don't believe this is creating a false narrative on reality when one is faced with such a horrific Mental Illness. I would not disagree in that some cases some NON's do whatever it takes to get to the other side of recovery. As with varying levels of BPD, there are different levels of being a Codependent & possibly other comorbidity within the NON so as I said in some cases, some get to there other side quicker than others for countless reasons. I don't judge anyone for trying to get to a better place for themselves ... .I might not agree with the method but I can certainly agree with the result.

J

[Skip]

I am struggling mightily with depression and to go more than a few minutes without her dominating my thoughts.

Mind you, I don't need any more logical reasons to detach from her, of those there are plenty. It is just that my emotions have nowhere near caught up with my mind.

  JQ

I was responding to the above. I don't want to hijack this thread by responding to your comment, but if you want to start a thread on on the questions board, PM me and I join in.

  snowmonkey

I think you know that no amount of logic is going to fix this - you say that above. Strength will. That is what your therapist was getting at when he spoke of differentiation in March.

Let's be honest, no matter how much doom and gloom you spell out here, you're not buying it and if she reaches out, you're going to go back in. Right now, you still think, deep down, it can fix and that is what is driving your anxiety - the uncertainty and the hope and the powerlessness.

32 days is painfully long, but not terminally long. It's sorta like running after a bus but not yet being at the point to accepting that the bus is pulling away and you can't catch it.

What we need during this "nowhere zone" is inner strength. This is the differentiation that your therapists was talking about. Realizing that you are a whole human being without her. That you have no control right now but are man enough to live in the uncertainty and that you are man enough to work through whatever card is finally dealt. Man enough.

This stage of a breakup is hard and it hurts. This is the bargaining / depression transition stage.

I hope this road map helps to pull this together.

As Sarah McLaughlin says, hold on to yourself, this one's gonna hurt like hell.

Skip

[snowmonkey]

Thank you again JQ and skip, I appreciate all your inputs regardless of differing opinions.

  skip, I do completely agree, much of my anxiety is caused by being in the nowhere land, half between craving her and despising her. To be perfectly honest, I do not know what I would do if she called my tomorrow. Part of me wants her back, part of me wants her to call so I can reject her and part of me wants her to call so I can take her back but only to hurt her as much as she hurt me.

Of course, the overwhelming possibility is that if she did call me and I did take her back is that I am just going to be hurt and betrayed again. Of this fact, the vast majority on this board would agree. When my heart catches up with my mind and I radically accept that she will never get better, then I am free.

On the topic of the curability of BPD, I am not aware of any cases that a highly disordered person has been cured. Sure, skirting around the edges of those on the cusp of formally being diagnosed we will see that sometimes people might drop out of this classification. But I am not talking about partial remission for any short length of time or management of symptoms when I say cured.

I know that you have read a lot more than I on this topic, so perhaps you have come across some case studies. Are there any that demonstrate long term efficacy of a particular treatment? moreover (and to my OP) how would such a person deal with the fallout from being cured and the insight that their previous behaviours were abhorrent?

[Skip]

Directly to your question... .


Relationship Quality and Stability in Couples When One Partner Suffers From Borderline Personality Disorder
Sébastien Bouchard, Stéphane Sabourin, Yvan Lussier and Evens Villeneuve

The main goal of the present study was to examine and compare the psychosocial functioning of 35 couples where the woman was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (BPD) to that of a nonclinical control sample of 35 couples.

The BPD status of women from the clinical group and the prevalence of personality disorder in their partner were ascertained through the SCID-II. Participants completed self-report measures of couple functioning.

A majority of couples in which the woman suffered from BPD (68.7%) evidenced frequent episodes of breakups and reconciliations and, over an 18-month period, nearly 30% of these couples dissolved their relationship.

Nearly half of the men involved in a romantic relationship with a woman suffering from BPD met criteria for one personality disorder or more.

When compared with non-borderline couples, borderline couples showed lower marital satisfaction, higher attachment insecurity, more demand/withdraw communication problems, and higher levels of violence.

[enlighten me]

I dont wish to take away hope from people as I do feel that some sufferers of BPD can improve with therapy but as jq said I dont at this moment in time think it is curable. For me the definition of cured is that all the symptoms have gone and you dont need to do anything. I do not think it is the case with BPD. Yes they may not reach the clinical criteria but they still have to work on it. They have to be more mindful of their behaviour than a so called non. I liken it to someone losing a leg. They may get a prosphetic leg but their not cured. Everyday they have to put the effort in. They may function like everyone around them but its a struggle.

Snowmonkey at this moment in time you are struggling to cope. You want answers. I can appreciate that. I like so many here have been through it. Its little comfort but it does get better. It takes time and everyday can be a struggle. One day you will wake up and she wont be the first thing you think about. After that she will be less and less in your thoughts until eventually her importance to you will have dwindled.

[snowmonkey]

Hi all,

I've been really trying hard to detach since my BPDexgf discarded me 41 days ago. We've been NC (by both parties during that time).

Today I received a call from a number I didn't know, it was her friend asking to be able to pick my ex's stuff up from my house.

I started crying on the phone and told her some of the things my ex had done to me and that I still loved her. I feel traumatised all over again and feel that I have taken many steps backwards.

I wasn't doing well before, just putting one foot in front of another but now I feel totally triggered again and that a huge panic attack is just around the corner.

I don't know what to do. How can I get back the marginal progress I have made in the past 6 weeks?

[jasmine-1234]

I'm not an expert, but this is exactly how I wound up blocking my ex's phone number the other day and changing the locks on the door.  Hopefully once the stuff is dealt with you can protect yourself some how.  I know it's really sad and difficult, but ultimately it's your life   I cried a lot the next few days... .sending big hugs!

[snowmonkey]

Thank you Jasmine, big hugs received and returned.

I wish I could cry, this is only the second time since the final discard. The other was in front of a nurse while I was sitting at the hospital as I described how she had assaulted me. I was begging for a prescription for Xanax as my ex had taken all of mine.

[Skip]

It might help to post every day... .let your true feelings out. Your feelings are hurt, but don't be afraid of them.

Picking up the stuff really doesn't mean anything, one way or the other. We often seen it as a sign of finality, but its just picking stuff up.

What did she leave behind?

[snowmonkey]

My true feelings?

I simultaneously want to hold her in my arms forever but also hope that she would hurry up and kill herself so that I no longer need to feel anything towards her.

I have in equal amounts love and hatred.

My brain tells me I am best to be rid of her, my emotions scream out for me to be with her. I had gone almost 6 weeks without reaching out to her, in the hope that as time passed I would forget. But now I feel that I have to start over.

She left many, many things at my house; boxes of things from when we lived here together.

[kc sunshine]

This abstract by Skip led me to read the whole article which was super interesting. Here's the discussion section (I've bolded parts that struck me as interesting):

Discussion

This preliminary exploration provides one of the first empirically based glimpses on relationship processes and outcomes in couples with a BPD partner. Up to now, research efforts have lagged behind the rich clinical descriptions of the marital context of BPD. Three key findings emerge from this study.

First, our results showed that BPD was associated with a pattern of episodic relationship instability. Almost 70% of the couples with a BPD partner reported, once every 6-month period, incidents of union termination followed by reunion. These severe commitment problems are consistent with clinical hypotheses of disruptive couple formation processes in BPD (Fruzetti & Fruzetti, 2003; Kernberg, 1995).

The second major finding of the present study was that nearly half of the men romantically involved with a woman suffering from BPD were diagnosed with a personality disorder. The expected prevalence of personality disorders in the general population goes from 9% to 14% (Charitat & Schmitt, 2002). Thus, in most likelihood, the partner-choice process in BPD is not random. Whether assortative mating in women with BPD is guided by genetic factors, social homogamy, or psychodynamic processes, or by a combination of these causes, remains to be determined. Another important finding was that half of the men met criteria A for antisocial personality disorder (conduct disorder before age 15). This finding could, if replicated, help explain high levels of revictimization and intimate violence in couples where the woman suffers from BPD.

Third, couples in which the woman suffers from BPD differed from control couples on a diversity of psychosocial variables: attachment representations, intimate violence, self-reported communication patterns, psychological distress, and relationship satisfaction. More specifically, our first hypothesis concerning attachment insecurity was mostly confirmed. As compared with control couples, both members of couples where the woman has BPD evidenced higher rates of insecure attachment. These results replicated those of Meyer and Pilkonis (2005), who found that BPD is more strongly associated with rejection anxiety than with avoidance of intimacy.

In the present sample, women suffering from BPD were also generally paired with men reporting both high levels of rejection anxiety and intimacy avoidance, as compared with control couples. Nearly 70% of these men adopted insecure attachment representations. The nonrandom pairing of individuals with insecure attachments suggests the presence of massive affect regulation difficulties characterized by a chaotic mixture of rapidly evolving hyperactivation and deactivation strategies. Pervasive preoccupation with perceived abandonment, fears of dependency, bursts of rage, devaluation, and behavioral avoidance probably alternate so that these couples get locked into vicious interpersonal cycles leading to low relationship quality and persistance. These hypotheses will need to be tested in future studies.

The hypothesis concerning the high prevalence of intimate violence in couples with a BPD partner was partly confirmed. There is a high rate of psychological violence but a consistent rate of physical violence (minor assaults) in couples where the woman has been diagnosed with BPD. These results replicate and extend those of other studies showing an association between intimate violence and borderline personality traits in men (Dutton & Starzomski, 1993; Holtzworth-Munroe & Meehan, 2002). Few studies have addressed the problem of intimate violence in women with personality disorders. The distribution of violence was highly heterogeneous in our sample. Seventy-three percent of our sample of women with BPD reported not being submitted to physical violence in the last year, but still a minority of couples exhibited high levels of mutual violence. Future studies will be needed to explain this heterogeneity.

The hypothesis that relationship satisfaction would be lower in couples with a BPD partner was confirmed. We also observed that these couples evidenced less mutual communication and more general avoidance of communication than control couples. Couples where the woman suffers from BPD also had a tendency to report more frequently a pattern of communication characterized by woman withdraw/man demand. This result is opposite to what is generally observed in distressed couples (Christensen & Shenk, 1991). However, even if couple dissatisfaction and communication problems were significantly higher in couples with a partner suffering from BPD, a large proportion of these couples, 51% for women and 60% for men, could be classified as satisfied with their union. This finding is somewhat surprising in light of some highly dysfunctional clinical descriptions of borderline couples (Lachkar, 1992) and considering that in the present sample, many other psychosocial factors traditionally associated with poor relationship functioning were observed: high rates of attachment problems, intimate violence, and psychological distress.

These findings of a higher than expected rate of relationship satisfaction and, for some couples, of long relationship duration, regardless of their highly unstable and conflictual functioning, raise questions. Past studies have revealed that, as compared with securely attached couples, couples where both partners are insecurely attached (which is the case for 68.6% of our BPD sample) can generally stay longer in an unsatisfying relationship (see Davila & Bradbury, 2001). It could well be that personality disorders and attachment insecurity in both partners have a more complex relation with union duration and satisfaction than what clinicians normally expect. An autonomous, sensitive partner expecting emotional support when needed, feeling strong enough to separate if too uncomfortable in a relationship, and not sharing the fundamental mistrust of others is not necessarily the ideal “understanding” partner in the mind of a patient with BPD.

Replication studies in other treatment settings with a larger sample of couples are necessary. Nevertheless, the direct assessment of personality disorders in both partners, using a well-studied standardized diagnostic interview, represents a strength of our study. Many studies focused on self-reported borderline personality traits. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first study based on a sample of couples where the women have the full syndrome of BPD, reliably diagnosed by two independent raters. The present findings underline the importance of integrating personality disorder research with couple studies. Finally, the complex relation between men’s personality characteristics and the clinical symptomatology observed in women diagnosed with BPD should be scrutinized in longitudinal studies to test multiple models of influence. Whereas these preliminary findings are important, the small size of this sample composed of women with BPD recruited in a treatment setting limits their generalizability.

[Skip]

She left many, many things at my house; boxes of things from when we lived here together.

So it is reasonable, even if the breakup were only to be for a few weeks, that she would want her stuff. It's also reasonable that she is sending a neutral friend to pick them up. If you still have feelings for her, even just basic ones, it makes sense to let her have her stuff. Try not to be injured or re-injured by this - its not a major event - its her personal affects.

My true feelings? I simultaneously want to hold her in my arms forever but also hope that she would hurry up and kill herself so that I no longer need to feel anything towards her. I have in equal amounts love and hatred.

And you want her to be incurable (as you say above)... .

It's takes a lot of strength to realize that you have these feelings... .  I think what would help is if you could get in touch with the "why" and what would resolve them. You can't hold her forever and have her kill herself.

It almost sounds, and I mean no judgement in this, like yo want her to "want you" so that you can reject her on your own terms. You won't be the first person to travel to this place. It's called an ego wound.

What do you think - any of this resonate?

[Woods77]

You sound similar to me, have you looked at co-dependency for yourself? Worth a look. Maybe not right now but when you feel a bit better.

Can I make a suggestion? Put the boxes outside your front door just before they come to collect them (if it's safe/dry) if not too many. This will speed up the process and also you may not need to talk to the collecting people. This helped me anyway. Or in hall ready if not.

[snowmonkey]

Thank you for your thoughts everyone,

  skip, I don't really care about her belongings going one way or the other to be honest. What bothered me was that I was triggered by speaking to her friend and that I broke down on the phone. I was trying really hard to detach and the thoughts of picking up the phone to call her had largely subsided but now I am having thoughts of re-engaging. However, I believe that she is undoubtedly involved with at least one other man by now and I use this to prevent myself from contacting her. I had largely been able to put such hurtful thoughts aside through very strict NC (I don't even log onto FB) let alone attempt to find out anything about her. I also refuse to even speak about her with all but a few people.

I think you are correct in your assertion that I would like to reject her on my own terms but part of me still wants to be with her. The truth is, I wish I could erase all the terrible things she has done and just be with the beautiful part of her. Of course, this is completely impossible. What I am finding the hardest to deal with is the mixed emotions I have towards her. It is the exact opposite of splitting; I love and hate her simultaneously. But truthfully, none of this matters because she has decided that we are not to be together, she has control just like she did throughout our relationship. That is also a painful reality.

  woods77. Oh, I have no doubt whatsoever that I have many codependent traits. I find happiness in being intimately involved with a beautiful and intelligent woman. We talk on this board about going to do the things that make you happy and that you used to do before you met your pwBPD, but what made me happy before? Long talks through the night, sharing romantic meals with my gf, working towards a future with my gf, going to the movies with my gf, going on holidays with my gf etc... I am 43 and have not had more than a month or two of being single since I was 15. So, for the last 28 years I have derived much of my happiness from activities with the person I love.

[enlighten me]

Hi snowmonkey

Is it you want to reject her on your own terms or is it that her rejecting you makes you feel insignificant?

Ivknow I still want my ex to want me in some way. This confused me for a long time. Then i realised it was because if she still wanted me then i was worth something. I wasnt an object that she used for her own ends. It would mean there where things about me that made me worth missing.

[snowmonkey]

Hmmm... .

It is a good question but I'm not sure that my reason fits into either of those categories nicely. Why do I feel like I would like to reject her?

1) because I would feel like I was taking back some of the power from an extremely power imbalanced relationship
2) because it would make me feel that the situation was more just. I think most of us here feel we've been totally used and taken for a ride.
3) because I want to cause her pain for all the pain she put me through
4) but also some of the ego stuff too

What you said makes sense regarding your ex. I did so much for my ex and I know that I was more than worthy of being her partner. I would feel better about myself if she realised that she screwed up a relationship with a man that who truly loved and cared for her and could have provided everything she needed. Of course, no man can provide everything that she needs, as she has proven throughout her life that time and again she will always need validation from more and yet more men.

It also strikes me that I need to feel that everything I did to care for her and all the pain I went through to be with her wasn't in vain and wasted effort. That can longer be provided by her being a beautiful partner for the rest of our lives, but in some way I might get compensation if I knew that she knew that I gave her all anyone could and that ultimately our demise was caused by her own actions.

[enlighten me]

I can completely empathise with your feelings. Where things may differ for us is I dumped my ex and its been over two years. The wanting her to hurt has gone. My dented ego is not as battered as it was and ive seen her have a number of relationships that have all ended.

Ive had longer to struggle with the question of whether I was a good boyfriend and have found peace in my answers.

I also have a uBPD ex wife so going through it twice I have been able to see recurring patterns which others may not after one ride on the merry go round.

It does get better. You can find peace with yourself and can come out the other side a little bit wiser.

[once removed]

hi snowmonkey,

nice self awareness. i commend you for digging deep and tackling this stuff - i know its painful.

i read regret in your list/thoughts. do you think perhaps some of your anger and sense of injustice is at yourself?

[snowmonkey]

Thanks for the question once removed.

Do I have anger towards myself?

Truly, I feel that I have little anger towards myself. Certainly in hindsight I can see that I could have done things differently at times and certainly I see I gave too much and expected too little in return. But I am not angry at myself for that.

I see little point in self-recrimination when my ego is already so low and besides, I almost always put 100% into this relationship because I believe love and relationships are worth fighting for. I don't see me ever changing that behaviour in the future, although I may certainly change the type of person I have a relationship with... .Not that I can see me being with anyone else for a LONG time.

The regret I have is that I allowed myself to believe that this was the one. Part of me still feels she was my soul mate... .And I have been in a LOT of relationships. But I can't be angry at myself for that either, I have never gone into a relationship with thoughts that this is ok for now but it will come to an end soon.

I am finally coming to the realisation that there was nothing I could have done to make this work... .I couldn't fix her. So it seems pointless in being angry with myself.

Knowing what I know now, I would behave differently if I met her afresh tomorrow. But my point is, that I didn't know these things when I first met her. You learn a lot at BPD school that life has never taught you before!

[Skip]

I am finally coming to the realisation that there was nothing I could have done to make this work... .I couldn't fix her. So it seems pointless in being angry with myself.

Snow, I don't want to push too hard - but I want to push some.

1. You knew this in March. You told us.

2. You have explained that if she kills herself you will feel redeemed and in less pain, and surely the inverse replies, if she meets a great guy and has a great relationship, you will be devastated.

This is codependency. Your feelings are self worth are based on her failing.

When dogs do this, its called chasing the tail.

[earlgrey]

This abstract by Skip led me to read the whole article which was super interesting. Here's the discussion section (I've bolded parts that struck me as interesting):

any links to source much appreciated

thanks EG

[kc sunshine]

Sure earl grey! Just msg me and I'll send you the pdf.

This abstract by Skip led me to read the whole article which was super interesting. Here's the discussion section (I've bolded parts that struck me as interesting):

any links to source much appreciated

thanks EG

[snowmonkey]

I am happy to be pushed skip.

I agree that I am codependent. However, I am taking as many steps as I can to reverse that.

But firstly, I would say that I don't think it is my self worth that is mainly linked to her, rather it was my feelings of happiness and being contented. Not necessary my feelings at that present moment but I thought I was working towards a future that would be happy and thus I was content. I believe I am intelligent, people seem to enjoy my company, I am attractive, good at sport, well travelled, speak another language, good job etc. All this is to say that I am not down on myself. My feelings (and the feelings I would be filled with if she had a great life) are more about the total injustice I feel.

I will tell you a brief story to illustrate this. About 12 years ago I left my wife who was kind, intelligent and very attractive. I ran off with a girl who was 13 years younger than myself. Of course, that failed after a few years. But my wife, she was in a new relationship with a professor from university after a couple of months. They are happily married, two beautiful children and travel the world. My heart is full of gladness and happiness for her. I got what I deserved, a failed love affair, she got what she deserved, true and long lasting love. I feel so much remorse for my actions when I left her but I have not a hint of jealousy or anger towards her.

Back to my exBPDgf. The devastation I would feel at the scenario you offer would be around the complete injustice of the situation. I have a very strong sense of fairness.

To remedy my codependency with my exBPDgf I have implemented a number of things:

1) I have listed all the reasons why she will never be able to give me the life that I want. Eg. She would never have a child with me, she will be unwell for many, many years, she will always seek attention from other men, she will never contribute in a meaningful way financially etc...
2) I have gone complete NC. I allow myself to know nothing about her whatsoever.
3) I am on a journey of further self improvement. Being on here helps me emotionally, catching up with old friends, learning another language, working out, eating right, renovating my house, learning to ride my motorbike etc... .

Would be very interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on what I have written above.

[drained1996]

"About 12 years ago I left my wife who was kind, intelligent and very attractive. I ran off with a girl who was 13 years younger than myself."

Ok, I'll ask the the obvious question here... .what made you do that?  I'm not judging at all, just a thought you may like to ponder as it seems you imply that you didn't make a good judgment there... .

And obviously... .we are all here because we didn't make great decisions or notice things we should have, so please don't beat yourself up because of this question as it's not meant in that context, but rather... .why... .why have we all made some not so good decisions to do what we have?  

Why did I stay with my exBPD for 3 years after I knew the diagnosis?  Why do any of us put up with the emotional, mental, and sometimes physical abuse?  :)on't we know we deserve better?

Why do we end up making decisions that are not in OUR own best interest?  

For me, that path led inward down a rabbit hole of my own past.  BPD relationships is what forced me to seek professional help and get some guidance to the answers I needed.  And of course sharing and reading here helped tremendously.

I feel your pain snowmonkey, I can close my eyes and feel it, smell it, touch it, because like many here I've been there.  It sucks, and the answers to your pain lie within yourself.  

My biggest hurdle was learning that I am in control of how I feel... .meaning nobody can "make" me feel anything.  I am in control of how I allow myself to feel/react to someone else's actions. No person or thing holds the ability to make me to feel bad or good, unless I choose to allow it.   I'm sure some more senior folks here can add some links or point you in a direction to read about such.

I hope you take this post in the context it's meant, which is non-judgmental at all, just something that you may take and help you turn the path you are on towards YOU.

And there is nothing FAIR about a pwBPD's life... .so if you are looking for fairness, let me know when pink elephants begin to fly.  I thought I needed mine to be incurable too... .but I realized I just needed to cure myself. 

[snowmonkey]

Thanks for the comments drained. And do not worry, I am far harsher on myself for my decision to leave my wife than anyone.

I left her because at that point in my life I felt I had been corralled into marriage, I felt it was all for her and the life she wanted. I wanted to travel, to finish my Ph.D. To just enjoy life for some time without going to the next step of bringing children into the world. Along came a gorgeous foreign girl and I fell in love with her. I stilled loved my wife dearly, but I was no longer in love with her. Now that I am more mature I see what a huge mistake I made but at that time it felt right for me.

I am sorry that you too have felt this pain, I feel such empathy for everyone on this board. I feel empathy too for some with BPD... .But not my ex who has refused to accept the diagnosis and hence allowed herself to hurt others.

[earlgrey]

nice thread, I get a lot of it, and snowmonkey I echo a great deal of what you have written... .I too found immense happiness in the early days of my r/s (I could not tell you exactly why though... .just felt good!)

I also relate to issues with codependence. I feel though that this (co-d) is quite easy to recognise and relatively easy to apply new rules.

The thing I find the most difficult with all this BPD r/s gone wrong business is the bits we have more difficulty even seeing, or understanding and adjusting. Just ask a pwBPD if anything is wrong?

Earlier in the thread there was a quote from a scholarly article about BPD couples, and cherry picking a few bits I found that nons have a higher than average chance of a PD and both will have (negative/unhealthy) attachment issues.

Codependency is in its simplest form: stop saying yes and start saying no... .I can understand that, applying it takes a little practise. But undestanding one's own attachment policy that is buried deep down somewhere is another matter. I have no idea what to look for or where I might find it, but it is one of our most important faculties and IMO the reason we end up with a really unsatisfactory r/s.

I too feel cheated and unfairly treated by 'life'. When I put all I can, emotionally and financially into a r/s and all I get is abuse. It hurts. I end it. Can I even do any better the next time. I am filled with doubt. Why? Because I am certain of one thing, and that is that my attachment model buried deep in my old brain, or whatever you might like to call it, functions in a certain way.

It is knee-jerk stuff, non rational, no explanations required, it just happens, and I don't think there are any user serviceable parts inside. You've got what you've got and that I think is very hard to alter.

That is why we grapple clumsily with detaching because the attaching process was not a conscious, rational one. It was a powerful emotional one, and our rational logical thoughts about detaching are not able to dismantle the strong emotionally significant attachment bonds that we have created unwittingly with another hurt individual.

Just my two pence.

[Skip]

To remedy my codependency with my exBPDgf I have implemented a number of things:

1) I have listed all the reasons why she will never be able to give me the life that I want. Eg. She would never have a child with me, she will be unwell for many, many years, she will always seek attention from other men, she will never contribute in a meaningful way financially etc...
2) I have gone complete NC. I allow myself to know nothing about her whatsoever.
3) I am on a journey of further self improvement. Being on here helps me emotionally, catching up with old friends, learning another language, working out, eating right, renovating my house, learning to ride my motorbike etc... .

Let me give you a possible alternative list... .

1) I have listed all the reasons why she will never be able to give me the life that I want. Eg. She would never have a child with me, she will be unwell for many, many years, she will always seek attention from other men, she will never contribute in a meaningful way financially etc...

~ Just as I left my good wife and was selfish, my ex-gf left the good me and was also selfish. We are all OK and we are all flawed.

~ Relationships aren't about the breakups, they are about course of the relationship and neither of mine were consistently stable or strong. I have a significant part in that - I choose them and I'm there participating every day. My partner had a very significant part in it too.

~ While no relationship failure is about one person, the break up typically is. Being abandoned and rejected by a long term partner, under any circumstances, is a devastating life event.

~ The breakup of any serious relationship is a life altering event and biologically and emotionally traumatic. Even more so if the breakup was cruel. Even more so if we have attachment issues. Just like a broken bone, we will suffer, we will heal in time, but most importantly, with proper care, we can be stronger. Conversely, with poor care, we will be prone to break again).

2) I have gone complete NC. I allow myself to know nothing about her whatsoever.

~ I accept that the relationship is broken up and I am committed to not trying to resuscitate it.

~ While I haven't fully accepted that there still isn't some hope of recovery and that I am in limbo, I am not going to try and fool myself into thinking I have control right now. I don't. I'm strong. I can live with that.

3) I am on a journey of further self improvement. grieving a loss.  Being on here helps me emotionally, catching up with old friends, learning another language, working out, eating right, renovating my house, learning to ride my motorbike etc... .

~ When I am feeling a bit stronger, I will embark on a journey of self-awareness. What should I have done if I could live life over - knowing that - what am I going to do going forward.

~ I am going to learn more about human psychology and what makes a good relationship.

~ I am committed to be healthier and making healthier choices going forward than those I made in my last relationships.  The first of those healthy choices is choosing a healthy healing pathway.

[One key]

Your subject title is: I need BPD to be incurable.

Is that a form of selfdefense, like if there was a small chance that she could be cured, that you want very much to continue / restart the relationship?
In the process going over all healthy boundaries?

And if you would be sure that she is incurable, that you can find closure and accept the relationship is over?