now or later?

[earlgrey]

we have agreed in principal to divorce, but because of circumstances will be cohabiting until june 2017.

I have given her my lawyer's draft and the main issue is custody, I want 50/50, she says no way. That's where we are. From a family judge's POV, there is a very good chance I will get 50/50 according to my lawyer. But it will be a fight with STBex. BTW we are not in US. (france FWIW)

We are cohabiting and on the whole it is manageable, and as she is now having to get back into a work environment I am doing a lot of the schools runs etc for D7. My time is my own so I can and am happy to do that - will also look good for the family judge!

Now that the principal of divorce has been reached (that in itself was a huge struggle for me - I initiated) what is the benefit of starting the custody fight now while we are still together, or carry on as is, and let the fight begin when we are actually separated?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

[rarsweet]

I would not start any "fight" while still living together. Why take the chance of it going south? I would see this as time to build yourself up even more as a stable, capable, involved parent. Please make sure to protect yourself while living in this situation.

[Turkish]

No "fight" but rather negotiation. I lived with the kids' mother for almost 5 months until she could afford to move out,  similar to your situation.  We continued talking about it,  though in her case she was happy because she was living a double life and looked forward to moving out to fully embrace her White Knight. Despite having at the time 1 and 3 year olds, I interacted with her as little as possible. I supported her financially those months,  even for most of the groceries,  while she saved up.  I even put $1k down on her new car.  Otherwise,  I tried to keep it like two ships passing in the night.  I communicated the joint custody of what was best for the kids and also her.  That helped validate her a lot Document everything,  however it's done that's legally admissible in French courts. I kept my journal in the safe only I had a key to. 

Still use the Improving Lessons.  They helped me,  if nothing else than not to be invalidating.  Think of it as another aspect of being validating,  but with some detachment. 

[sad but wiser]

I think you running your daughter to school etc will become a habit for your ex.  The realities of dealing with work and a young child once she moves out may well cause her to rethink the 50/50 custody.  In the end, a good mother will do what is truly best for her child.  Good luck!

[earlgrey]

Thanks everyone for replies I can really relate to. It just seems to make sense not to rock our rickety boat.

That helped validate her a lot... .Still use the Improving Lessons.  They helped me,  if nothing else than not to be invalidating.  Think of it as another aspect of being validating,  but with some detachment.

Could do with some help here. She still comes out with harsh stuff towards D7, rewrites our history, paints me black, while seeing only white her side... .all pretty regular stuff. I'm not too bad at keeping a distance, but sometimes I crack, jump in and try to put things straight... .really good idea . What should I be doing?

FWIW: yes she is having to go back to work and return to her own place (solid lease until 6/2017) - I am paying all bills and will until she goes.

[david]

Make sure you document everything you are doing with/for your daughter. You may also want to document what mom is doing and not doing with daughter. Example: if mom is going out for hours and you are staying with your daughter. If you can record when she is coming out with harsh stuff, etc.
When it comes time for court all that information needs to be put on a single piece of paper, if possible, for the court to see. Of course, you need all the other documentation with you but a single sheet is easier to deal with. It would be up to the other party to decide whether to contest what is on that sheet and you have everything to back it up.

[sad but wiser]

She knows how to push your buttons, after all, she installed them.

[C.Stein]

It just seems to make sense not to rock our rickety boat.

I agree EG.  If you don't feel you can discuss custody issues with her without creating massive conflict then don't, if for no other reason than to keep the household semi-peaceful for your daughters sake.

That said, the longer you delay it the longer it will be before this is all resolved.  Weigh the benefits of the two approaches and pick the best one that minimizes the fallout.  Maybe a mix of the two will work?

[Fie]

Hi 

Make sure you document everything you are doing with/for your daughter. You may also want to document what mom is doing and not doing with daughter.

That was also my initial idea. But then I'm thinking, this will also burden your mind, always being busy documenting things that you actually are doing only because you want to spend time with your child.
Do you think it might be a good idea to contact your lawyer so he/she can advise you on this ? Don't forget to mention that your ex is BPD and thus high conflict.


I don't know about France but I'm in a country close to you and here we have so called mediators now. These are people coming from different backgrounds (lawyers, psychologists, ... .) who are trained to intervene in family disputes. The main idea is to avoid escalation and to avoid battling in court. They strive to find a common ground, especially regarding the children. I have recently gone to a mediator with the father of my child (after 6 years of separation we found ourselves stuck regarding the situation with our daughter) and even after only one meeting we are able to talk civil again (mind you, he's not BPD).

So what happens is the couple goes to a meeting with the mediator, who lets them both talk and tries to see if there is a common ground to reach. Nothing is forced, it's both parties who decide on what they want to agree on - the mediator cannot force anything upon them. If the mediator is a lawyer he/she can tell their clients how the judicial system works - in my country nowadays 50/50 for the children is the norm.

If after a few sessions an agreement can be reached, it can be written down and this written agreement can be given to the court for validation. But again, the whole mediation is there to avoid the courtroom, so it's not obligatory to validate the agreement in court at all. Some people even prefer to not make a written agreement (f.e. me, for my own reasons I won't bother you with)

Do you think that would be something that could help you ?

[earlgrey]

Again I thank you all for your very relevant comments... .they really help.

It is very difficult to know the best way to approach potentially conflictual situations with a pwBPD. Mediation looks to be a very good approach, but probably works best with people who understand the concept of give and take

I would say from my experince obtaining what you want in a direct/negotiating type way is not normally very productive. By my nature I tend to think more than less about any given approach, and so advance slowly. But already our cohabitation is giving us ways of coping, and as W. is going back to work, I am automatically having more time with D7. There is no fight just a changing of the roles and I get plenty of D time. Once this becomes routine it might just establish a way of operating and continue in a non-conflictual way post separation... .who knows? I think what might help this succeed is the fact that there is no fight or loss of face, and i think the pwBPD copes very badly with losing, and probably will do many counterproductive things just to avoid a losing situation. Cut off your nose to spite your face has been a regular banner in our parts.

Anyhow tonight there was some news... .the tenants, who W. had become pally with and were fighters, the robust antithesis of me (ie they were hanging in with their couple despite conflict not dissimilar to our own!) are separating and so want to leave the flat asap. This is 'good' on 2 counts (BTW I have no ill will towards these people) because a) their model of a couple is actually no different to ours (despite W's claims to the contrary) and b) the cohabitation period could be greatly reduced!

[earlgrey]

Things HAVE moved on quickly; flat will now be available for W. as of 1 feb 2017.

So this morning we start 'talking' settlement.

W starts by saying she has certain rights as to financial settlement, that she intends to apply. We have a pre-nup and I am pretty aware of the rules, so I think we should be able to reach an agreement.

As a counter I say OK (as in I'm listening and we can work this out), and then say yes but we need to work on the 50/50 custody.

This flips her out. No, not possible, don't want, you can't have etc etc etc. Things at this point degenerate and no further useful exchanges happen, other than comments like "this is going to be war" etc.

So, as we are still under one roof for a couple more months I see no benefit from daily strife like this and so try to calm things down.

How to exit this impasse? Bring in lawyers and the law? I think the 50/50 represents more than just a child share matter. I think it troubles her world deeply, pushing all sorts of buttons (abandonment, loss of husband, loss of child, bad mum... .who knows what?) and going by the vigour and nature of the arguement I am not certain getting 50/50 might be in my best long term interest. Yes I could fight it in the court, and proabably win, but at what cost?

Maybe use it (via dropping the 50/50) as leverage to improve the financial deal could be a way forward... .and in actual fact the custody split (which she is happy with) looks like 2-3 weekends a month and every wednesday, which has every chance of running from tues night to thursday morning. If you divvy that lot up, it comes to +/- 14 nights a month anyhow, pretty close to 50/50.

We have very different parenting approaches - particularly for things like homework. Her arguement against the 50/50 is that D7 will not adjust to both ways. What i think that means is that D7 may well prefer my technique and so give mum a hard time when she tries to apply her way. By avoiding doing homework with me the comparaison does not exist. Yeah!... .but what about tuesday and wednesday night homeworks with me? I think none of this is relevant.

I think it comes back to her deep concerns about things and her very private view of the world; and 50/50 is just too painful a nail in the coffin, some kind of affirmation of all things bad.

So maybe sidestepping is a valid approach.

I am thinking out loud here, but if anyone is reading and has any ideas I would be pleased to read you.

[C.Stein]

We have very different parenting approaches - particularly for things like homework.

Can you provide more details on this?

[earlgrey]

Sure one of us rushes, shouts and belittles. While the other tends to encourage and have fun... .

D7 tends to prefer the latter!

[C.Stein]

Sure one of us rushes, shouts and belittles. While the other tends to encourage and have fun... .

So she feels threatened?

[Fie]

Hello,

I am not an expert on this, and I'm sure you'll get some good advice from other members.

Personally I think it's important to put one person first : your child. It might be a good idea to consult with a child psychologist. I did that when I separated from my daughter's dad. I didn't take my child there, as she showed no signs of dealing bad with the situation, but I went beforehand myself, to hear how I should proceed and what would be a good approach for a child. I'm happy I did that.
Since your wife is BPD, that might even be more important.

How to exit this impasse? Bring in lawyers and the law?

I would not do that right away. Personally I would opt for a mediator. It might take some sharp edges off for both you and your wife.
People sometimes think that lawyers will just talk civil amongst each other, and the couple is left out from the discussion. Not true. The dad of my daughter was a lawyer before, and o boy the stories ... .

Sidestepping from the 50/50 might at first side seem better for your child if it can avoid fights. At the other hand, be careful. Your daughter might consider this as giving her up. I think it would be wise to ask a child psychologist, they'll know better then me.

Why not suggesting a mediator to your wife, telling her she can choose one ? This might give her the feeling of being less powerless ?

[Moselle]

EG.

There is some great advice here. Mine is dangerous and uncooperative so my frame of reference is different to yours. She threatened my life and Co-hab was thus not an option.

However some things are in common.

- they have the emotional maturity of a child, so remember to adapt your negotiating style to reflect this. With a child, consistency is crucial. If you stick to the 50/50 and do not yield, just like a child, she will likely yield to the adult eventually. I like Turkish's approach. Make things easy for her to do, and help her feel like she is choosing the way. I know it would be hard for you  but the sooner she finds someone else the more reason she has to settle. ie she is not really interested in what's best for anybody else. Our job is to help them see that this is the best for them.

- I would be careful not to show any willingness to compromise on 50/50. After the divorce you can change the arrangements to suit you. Do you really want to give sole parenting rights to a borderline?  It's dangerous water if you ask me.

- A child to a borderline is an extention of them. Any 50/50 arrangement is percieved as losing their extention 50% of the time. It's loss of control they fear. And loss of a body ( the child) to project their intense emotions onto. Part of good negotiation is understanding why the other party is insisting on their stance. Try to allay this sense of loss.

- Set deadlines for the negotiation. Borderlines need the structure. Open ended discussions are difficult and become circular.

Good luck

[earlgrey]

Again my thanks to you all - this is quite difficult territory.

From the legal aspect for kids (where I am) there are two matters, 1) is parental authority, which will be joint (50/50) for us, and the other is 2) residency, where the child lives. So our 50/50 struggle is concerning residency not authority. Not sure exactly how authority works; but that will be 50/50.

Do you really want to give sole parenting rights to a borderline?  It's dangerous water if you ask me.

I think I have avoided this scenario.

Anyhow onto my first mistake (I'm learning!) Moselle mentions consistency. Unfortunately I did move away from 50/50 during an earlier discusion several months ago. Coming back to it was a disaster as the consistency aspect was absent. In my defence I took what I thought to be a real negotiating stance, W throws something new in (a cash settlement) I return to 50/50 residency. This did not make sense to W. and we go into meltdown.

While we are actually trying to negotiate a suitable outcome the reality is less negotition and more about keeping the pwBPD in as stable a state as possible. Many of the discussions are going to be triggers, and so getting to decisions without just throwing in the towel needs a skill set that I hope to learn quickly here.

Borderlines need the structure. Open ended discussions are difficult and become circular.

Yes just talking, ideas, I get it. BUT for W. NO No we need action now! A common source of difficulty since forever with us. I hope I can integrate this info into our dealings now.

[Moselle]

Good luck EG.

Post if you nedd more support

[earlgrey]

Yeah! back again.

It's all gone over a cliff.

Since the 50/50 remark I went back and tried to calm things and it seemed to work (yesterday). (Tried to validate her concerns... .? don't know how good I am at that.)

Anyhow today there is a very bleak outlook. Frosty silence and black looks. We were separate for most of the day so this evening I try to get back to our discussions.

Nothing. No exchange, except very negative comments (nothing to talk about, and the victim plee). Don't quite know what this means... .a tactic or a desire to make things very difficult.

Not feeling very clever because I was aware of the dangers but didn't manage to avoid them.

What to do... .shut down and hope a little time will improve things?

[ForeverDad]

Many here, myself included, remember those "We're going to fix this tonight!" outbursts,  Those consumed my now-Ex into the middle of the night every couple weeks.  Literally anything seemed to trigger her cycles of ranting and raging.  I was unable to reason with her, she had too much perceived emotional baggage for her to listen to me.

By that late stage she wasn't listening at all.  But despite the common traits of this disorder, the levels of conflict and discord can vary for us, not just from person to person but also over time.  Unfortunately when a relationship is crumbling the less-bad days are fewer.

I agree with the others, never agree to less than you feel is right for your child or the overall outcome.  You can always step away from the confrontation and leave it for another time.  Otherwise it will be remembered and you will be guilted or pressured, coming up again and again.  You may feel you're negotiating in the interests of both but the other sees only their battle lines and their distorted perspectives, not both sides.

[Turkish]

It might help to step away from assigning numbers and percentages and talk about "joint" custody. My lawyer pointed this out to me early on.

[Fie]

This might be a very personal remark, but for me 'negotiating' over less than 50/50 for the kids would be unthinkable.
You are their *dad*. Why on earth would you have to see them less than 50/50 ?

Negotiating over less than 50/50 for furniture, the house, anything, ok, but children ?
Don't give in just because she's BPD. They are your children just as well as hers. And they are going to need a healthy parent.

[david]

I live in Pa. A few years ago the state supreme court kind of said that judges should start at 50/50 and change when there are circumstances that indicate a change from that is needed. I believe Calif goes the 50/50 route and it is up to one of the parents to prove that should not be the case. I think most states are going in that direction.

[earlgrey]

Thank you all... .but that is why I am here, I am not dealing with regular and fair, and I agree 50/50 seems only regular and fair. But there are things I do not see so clearly and need clarifying.

For example why the struggle over 50/50? Suggestions welcome.

Yes we are fighting over 50/50, yet who took D7 on summer holiday and who takes D7 off again next week for a trip, yep me, with blessing. And who organised a christmas trip 2016 without D7, that's right, not me, so D7 and I are having xmas together. COOL COOL COOL!

So we are not dealing with time share issues, or no access, or posessiveness, we are dealing with something less obvious, at least to me. And perhaps it has has more to do with what other people may think. The idea that split parenting would seem to carry a stigma, maybe? The idea of someone else doing the to-ing and fro-ing is fine, just don't let my good name as a mother be associated with it.

If I do demand 50/50, which I believe the courts will validate, I am certain I will be punished. That's what I envisage, and it is not an outcome that I relish.

So (and I think we are coming down to personal choices now) do I go that route and live with it, or do I go a less distressing route (for STBex) and probably get as much dad time as I actually want.

As Fie said, it is personal, and I agree. But please feel free - please do - to comment because my personal choice will be based along with my gut feeling on experiences and views I read here.

From a legal POV (not sure if this differs from US) we have parental authority to be decided (that is 50/50) and the residency issue (which is the contentious 50/50).

[Moselle]

There are two reasons I can think of. The first is money. If it's 50/50 she gets half the money. And the second is control. Borderlines need warm bodies to project their s#@& onto. If they have to share their warm body with someone,  who can she abuse during that time?

I don't believe they see children as we do. They are pawns in a horrible game of chess.

[Fie]

I would not give in on the 50/50.
Even if you in the end would see your daughter 50% of the time or more. We are talking BPD, which as we all know, means : unpredictable.

In your case I'd also be worried about what my children would think later on : why did dad not want to have me around 50% of the time ? Did he not love me enough ? What did I do wrong ? Again, maybe this is something you can ask a psychologist.
As someone pointed out, normally in court there should be a reason for not applying the 50/50 rule. In your case, you want to sooth your ex. Firstly, I'm not sure if that's really in the interest of your child, and secondly, is this something you later on are willing to share with her ? (She will probably ask about it, and it will be up to you but I think it's always better to be honest with our children).
 
50% of your genes are in your child. BPD's possessiveness is not your problem, but your wife's to deal with.

[ForeverDad]

Each state varies, but my experience was that having 50/50 didn't end the Child Support issue.  With equal time officially the deciding factor then moved to whomever earned most.  Well, you guessed it.  I earned much more than she did.  So she got CS.  I don't know what exactly she's earned over the years but having her income imputed to minimum wage probably isn't far off.

Be careful that the professionals don't get the impression that it's about the money.  Some fathers unfortunately have tried to get more time just to save some money or to spite their ex-spouses.  Don't do or say anything that may give that impression.  Always keep the primary focus on your children and their welfare.  The parents ought to be, in many respects, secondary to the children.

Also, present yourself to the professionals as the problem solver and stable parent, not the problem or 'complainer'.

In your case I'd also be worried about what my children would think later on : why did dad not want to have me around 50% of the time ? Did he not love me enough ? What did I do wrong ? Again, maybe this is something you can ask a psychologist.

As someone pointed out, normally in court there should be a reason for not applying the 50/50 rule. In your case, you want to soothe your ex. Firstly, I'm not sure if that's really in the interest of your child, and secondly, is this something you later on are willing to share with her ? (She will probably ask about it, and it will be up to you but I think it's always better to be honest with our children).

Fie made some good points.  If you're trying to soothe your stbEx then you're probably wandering down the path to sabotage yourself.  That 'soothing' has no permanence, before long Ex would be back to prior perceptions and the roller coaster would be racing again.  Of course, some soothing is appropriate, just be careful not to trade away any long term issues without first seeking legal advice and peer support responses first.

If you step out of the picture simply for financial reasons, can you imagine your ex claiming to the kids, as many disordered ex's do, "He doesn't love about you... .He doesn't care about you... .He abandoned us... ."  Believe me if you're an involved father claims like that will be hard on the kids but they will at least have a relationship with you.  If you're out of the picture, there will be nothing to counter any biased claims framing you as disinterested or a bad guy.

Perspective:  The excellent legal advice and strategies from your lawyer (and peer support here) is priceless.  What you can do is continue to do your best for the long term sake of the children... .  Father will be able, years from now when his children ask, ":)ad, did you fight for us?" then he can reply, "Yes, I did fight for you, I did my reasonable best."