Oh boy...

[obliv326]

So... .

Long story short... .I had a several month long LDR that blew up when my ex decided I was too scary to see in person when she was in town, I suppose. It dragged on, but a few weeks later she decided she "needed space". I gave her 6 months.

She eventually reached out to say I wasn't forgotten. We talked for a bit.

Last week we were talking and she mentioned that she was strapped financially and having anxiety attacks. It is difficult to know she is having trouble and not help, so on wednesday, i reached out and offered to meet her on thursday to give her some money, fill up her gas tank, and buy her dinner. Her birthday is next week, so it would be an early birthday present.

She was kind of rude when I asked about where she'd like to go. An hour after we were supposed to meet, she said that a friend was dealing with a break up, and asked if we could do it the next day. I had plans, and she had agreed to them, so I said as much, and that we should do this today.

She accused me of trying to "forve her into a corner". Apparently, because I had told her I would be in her area thursday and Friday, she assumed the plans were flexible (I said I would be up there, but I did say a specific time and date. She agreed to it. There was no mention of changing.) She was not "obligated" and hadn't "signed anything" and somehow, waiting until an hour after we were supposed to meet to ask if we could do t tomorrow was somehow respecting my time.

I told her we needed to talk on the phone about things. This has been an issue. She took forever to give me her number, and does this kind of BS when we are supposed to meet. It makes me feel like I am some kind of stalker or weirdo that can't be trusted.

Last night, I told her as much. I used DEAR MAN to tell her how I felt. If she wanted to have me around, and she keeps pulling me back into her life, but only talks to me via text, that was going to have to change. No more text only. I get treated like everyone else in her life, or I'm not putting anymore effort into it.

This is really hurtful. I was going out of my way to help her, and I get treated like some kind of guy who is hiding in the bushes outside her house? She is more than happy to talk to guys who have a very clear agenda to get into her pants and act like they are some kind of hero. I am maybe the only person who has ever wanted to know her for her, and I am treated like this? I am not even worth seeing if there is money involved?

I am deeply hurt and angry. As far as I'm concerned, she deserves to hurt over this, not me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Turkish]

She was rude, it sounds like she's using you; even worse,  on her terms.  You sound sound angry,  too, especially after trying the tools.  Do you feel differently given a day or so to process this? 

[obliv326]

I was pretty devastated yesterday. Most of today was being hurt and angry. Tonight I got kind of down, but in the last few hours I feel better after reading some things here.

I am kind of wondering if I handled it correctly? I didn't engage with her when she was being rude, even though when she acted like I was being demanding about how she spends her time I felt about as horrible and worthless as I ever have.

When I got home I sent her the message I described above. I'm pretty sure she'll feel bad and write me again soon. She has had some stress in her life, although that doesn't excuse her rudeness.

I also wonder if there was a way to tell her she'd been rude in a way that she would hear, and not just see as an attack from me and use it to split me black?

Regardless, I told her no more time and energy until she is willing to treat me with respect, and let me actually be a part of her life. She might think she's already doing that, despite her actions the other day. Or maybe she's not willing to do that. Regardless, I'm standing my ground here. I'm not going to be treated like that. I deserve better. My feelings matter and I told her so. Balls in her court.

[C.Stein]

Without respect you have nothing.

[patientandclear]

You identified two issues: that she only texts; and that she blew off your plans and took your time for granted and prioritized the other friend.

On texting: pwBPD can have real aversion to certain forms of communication with people they are close to. You can gently nudge on this, but making it an ultimatum ("talk by phone or I'm not in your life" is not recognizing this very real discomfort. This one is not about respect, I'm 95% sure. My ex got incredibly loathe to talk by phone for a long stretch in our post-r/ship dynamic. I always made clear I thought phone worked better for us for some things, and eventually he opened up on that. An ultimatum would have been counter-productive.

On her rudeness: she was rude. A well-calibrated boundaried response to that would be to say, ok, plans are off. See you next time. You don't have to go nuclear with "you're either going to make no mistakes or we're done," which is super shaming and feels like you are always on the verge of walking out the door. The natural consequences of what she did is she doesn't get to see you or get the money. Oh well.

On the money ... .Strongly urge you not to give her money. Those dynamics are rescuer dynamics, and they create a power inequality and sense of debt that at least some pwBPD can come to resent. And it puts you in the role of dad, not friend/partner. Is that what you want to be?

[obliv326]

Thank you for your response. I have had a lot of issues surrounding the phone thing. She seems to have no problem talking to other people on the phone, and it made me feel as if she didn't trust me. Same with avoiding spending time in person. That really hurt.

I will say that I think there is a difference between what I did and going nuclear.

First, an ultimatum last spring caused a huge problem, so I tried to not make this a "do this or we're done" situation. My position is that she is not treating me in a way I feel is respectful. Keeping a layer of distance between us by only communicating via text is hurtful to me. I allowed it to continue because I wanted to make sure she was comfortable with our situation. But it has always been hurtful to me, so I am asking to be treated like everyone else in her life. Rather than say "do it my way or we're done" I tried to make it more of an "until you do this, I won't invest anymore time or energy", which I think is a distinction that bears pointing out. I made the point several times that I like her company and want to keep  getting to know her, but that this behavior hurts. It has caused many problems in the past, so it's not like I am throwing something at her out of the blue. One of the issues I had before was establishing boundaries, and this felt like the best way to get that across.

At any rate, that's what I've done now. I hope it didn't come off as an ultimatum, but more of a choice to not reward a behavior that I can't handle anymore.  I now worry that it came off that way again, which I was trying to avoid.

[obliv326]

I've now started wondering if I should clarify... .Send a text message that says "I want to clarify that I'm not giving you an ultimatum. It's more that I don't feel like you're ready to have me around, so I'm giving you space until you are"... .Something like that? I know ultimatums are bad and I don't want to do that again.

[obliv326]

I thought I would post my response t her here and get an opinion. As I said, I used DEARMAN bc there is something I want from the interaction and I feel like I needed to assert myself because she was rude and I felt the need to stand my ground and make it clear that I did not deserve that treatment and wouldn't allow it. I don't think I did it perfectly but it was my first time doing it and I was very upset at the time. I think I was able to keep that at bay at least. Anyway, here's what I wrote:

So here's how it is. I understand that you've been stressed. Maybe you had some things happen today. But none of that was my fault. I was trying to do something nice for you. If you need to break plans, that is one thing. But to suggest that I was somehow out of line for expecting you to keep plans we had made is not something I am going to validate for you.

This made me feel very bad about myself. The issue of being reticent to meet with me or talk on the phone has caused problems before. When you act as if you have some reason to avoid me, it makes me feel like you see me as either someone who scares you, or as someone you find repulsive. I am neither and don't deserve to feel this way.

I deserve to be treated the same as anyone else you know. I will not be relegated to communication only via text. I will need to feel like I am welcome in your life, which I do not right now. I want to be able to talk on the phone and hang out when we get a chance.

I have said that I wanted to get to know you... .All of you. You can't really do that via text. Many issues we've had have been due to communication, or lack thereof, and text basically encourages bad communication.

I love the fact that we've been talking again. Is been a lot of fun. I love your company and you are really the first person I want to share a lot of things with. I want to keep doing that and see where things go. I've told you many times that you are very special to me. I really want to keep getting to know you, and I'm pretty amazing as well.

But I can't give you my time and energy until you can treat me fairly. I am not asking for anything unreasonable, and I have provided a lot of support for you. I did all of it to try and earn your trust and I didn't ask for anything in return. Being able to spend time with you and feel like I'm welcome to contact you is something I've had with everyone who has ever meant a lot to me, and it's how you get to know people. I've let you have this to make you comfortable, but it has affected me in a negative way, and I don't deserve that.

I can't imagine that I'll stop caring about you ever. But my feelings matter too, and I can't ignore that anymore.

That's it. Again, do I need to follow up that I wasn't giving an ultimatum?

[thefixermom]

So you already sent her that response?  My opinion is that it overstates your position.  She's already been told and she knows.  People do a lot more thinking in silence then they do when they are being sent long notes and explanations.  Same with respect. It doesn't come from writing those communications.   I agree with Patientandclear's post. A nonreactive (non emotional) response of "ok, plans are off. See you next time," would be more effective. She'd probably be chasing you right now just to make sure you weren't going so far as to not be able to reel you back in.   To keep restating and clarifying makes it look like you are chasing her, which you may be doing.  It puts the balance of power in her court.  If you are feeling hurt and upset by her treatment of you, then I would recommend that you work on yourself some more.  When I was finally able to love (everyone) with detachment, I discovered that not a single word or phrase can be said which hurts my feelings.  I might feel sadness, or concern, for the hurt person lashing out at me, but the act of not taking it personally, is liberating and ads clarity and steadiness to interactions. It doesn't happen overnight but with practice, it becomes real.

I agree about the money, too.  As a fellow funder (in the past) I understand how difficult it is to let them figure out things on their own.  When we give them money, they lose the opportunity to get motivated enough to get their act together. Plus we end up telling ourselves that we are a good person for helping them and we want them to see that and reward us with affection, attention, respect, etc.  Whether we admit it or not, we are trying to buy the relationship.  We love them so much and it's a chance to show it.   They sense our hidden or even subconscious motives and are quick to give us reasons why we must be held at bay no matter what we do for them.  It could well be that the whole reason "you haven't been forgotten," as she said, is that she knew if she played you a little bit, the wallet would open at the right time. And then when you start expressing anything that can be seen as an expectation, she starts feeling resentful and lashes out because she doesn't want to be that close with you and is looking for a way to distance you till the next need arrises.  I wouldn't be surprised if her friend's issue was all made up or embellished to break the date with you.  She knows she has your heart.  And she probably does care on some level but from where I'm sitting you look a lot like an asset in the wings.

You have no reason to feel bad about yourself. You are starting to see the kind of relationship you want and deserve and hope for.  But it's a process getting there.  People are who they are and it's important to see them as the people they demonstrate themselves to be so that we can accept the reality of it.  The only person who can honestly make you feel better is yourself. I'm proud of the effort I see you putting into this.  You'll get there. Probably (hopefully) a lot quicker than I did.  I spent a lot of years banging my head against a wall and it sure hurt.  But I was the one banging it, I finally realized.

[obliv326]

Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate everything you had to say.

This is the response I sent her. The only one I sent her. I did my best to remove my emotion from it so hearing you say that it comes off emotionally shows I have a little more work to do, I suppose. And the reason I would want to clarify is bc someone above said it sounded like an ultimatum. I didn't want to give that impression. I really just wanted to state my opinion and let her know that the way things have been going in that area is something I don't like.

I don't want to come off as chasing her, so if further clarification gives that opinion I'll not do that.

And I can't disagree that by helping her with money I was trying to show how much I cared. I agree that she could be using that against me... .And the friend thing? Almost 100% made up. She never mentioned it at all until an hour after we were supposed to meet. I don't believe it happened at all. Her method of dealing with stress is just to avoid it. This was classic avoidance, and part of the reason it bothered me so much was bc I was really hoping it wouldn't happen and she was serious about meeting. For her to pull this at the last minute, when I had already driven there... .

Anyway, I am hearing not to do anything? Don't write? Don't clarify? Should I do anything at all?

[obliv326]

I guess I'm asking... .Did I do anything right? Is there anything to work with here? Or did I just do what I've done before, even though I tried to avoid shaming and JADE?

[obliv326]

Help? Anyone?

[obliv326]

The longer I go, the more I feel like I should send a message that says:

I want to be clear that I'm not giving an ultimatum. I just can't stand being someone who stresses you out.

I get the feeling that I would be over explaining again... .And at the same time I feel like I should make sure she knows it's not an ultimatum, since someone mentioned that before.

And let me say... .It is so confusing trying to figure out what to do. On the one hand, DEAR MAN seemed the thing to do, since I felt I was asking for something that was untenable to me. I have watched her act scared to meet me and push back on the most basic parts of getting to know someone in a relationship... .And then give al of that away and more to a guy she met in a sketchy club. In a matter of minutes. If that guy can get it, I feel perfectly justified asking for the same thing.

But then I come here and I'm told I'm going nuclear and that I overstated and was over reactive. And I'm not saying they were wrong. I'm just saying that you seem to get a lot of mixed messages and it's impossible to know what to do.

Now I'm worried that I've given her the impression that I've made an ultimatum, and I've made that mistake before. I want her to come back, and I feel like, if I've given her the impression that she's facing an ultimatum, she won't

At the same time, I don't want to back down because I did nothing wrong.

What the hell do I do? Did I screw up? Is there any way to pull this out of the fire?

Anyone?

[patientandclear]

For what it's worth, as I was the one who used the term ultimatum, I no longer see it that way, after reading the message you sent her. I think rather the poster who said you would be better off being more perfunctory and just imposing natural consequences has the right read on the message you sent. So yet more explaining doesn't seem like the way to go.

She was rude. Who knows exactly why. So you should not be falling all over yourself to get her to resume. Your response though was unloading months of pent up anxiety and hurt onto this one incident. No one is going to want to spend time with someone who has so many rules about every component of the interaction. If you can be a little more iterative--if she behaves in a way you don't like, show her the consequences rather than giving her a lecture--you may have a smoother path.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree wanting her to treat you like everyone else in her life and being annoyed if she can't. BPS is a disorder pertaining to intimate connection. She may be fine talking and keeping plans with more casual acquaintances but finds it much harder with you. If you're practicing radical acceptance, this is just part of the landscape. You can't will away her attachment issues through exercise of boundaries or stomping your feet at her.

In the end you have to decide if you want to be closely connected to someone who you know reacts and processes this way. If you decide to, that decision is your responsibility.

[obliv326]

Thanks patientandclear. I really appreciate your response.

My question is what to do? Is there any hope for me? Did I do anything right?

I get that she may have some issues connecting or whatever. However, I'm not willing to have that kind of relationship with her. If I am doomed to be a guy whe just texts and everyone else gets to have fun with her in person, I'm not okay with that. If that means it ends then that's how it goes.

Obviously I'm learning. And as much as what I wrote comes off as angry, I did my best to try and get away from the emotion and use DEARMAN. If you're all seeing it as angry and feet stomping I must have screwed up. Is there anything I can do at this point?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm struggling pretty badly here.

[Turkish]

So yet more explaining doesn't seem like the way to go.

^^^^ this. 

Another message or further explaining yourself isn't likely to go over well,  and BPD or not,  may come off as desperate. You said what you said,  it's out there,  and waiting for the response is the best thing to do now.

[obliv326]

Thanks Turkish! I really appreciate the feedback.

I guess one thing I'm wondering that no one has touched yet is if I did anything right here? I mean, I stayed calm initially. I didn't react angrily or emotionally. I waited until I got home and sent the message above.

I tried to use the tools I had to get what I needed from her. While I am hearing a lot of things I can work on, and I do honestly appreciate EVERYTHING that has been said, I do wonder if I did anything that might be effective or useful? Anything that might have the kind of effect I was seeking? Or did I just do something that's going to push her away, as if I had JADEd her?

[Turkish]

I would only say that talking about your own feelings too much might be too much for her.  Being brief is better.  It's a smaller target. 

[patientandclear]

What you did right is not the same as what may draw her to you or appeal to her. (What you're doing now that you might want to reconsider is worrying so much about her reaction to all this.)

You asked for what you want, and didn't stuff your own wishes and feelings out of fear of her reaction. That, in broad strokes, is healthy.

I relate to your feelings. I've come to see, though, that how bad I felt about choices my ex made and behavior he engaged in was something for me to work out with me--not something I need to spell out for/with him. Some of it is down to him, some is exacerbated by harm done me by others long ago that his behavior just hooked into. But the point is, it's btwn me and me. Going forward, you might consider being true to your own self and feelings, but not necessarily processing all that with her. Decide what to DO and do it; you can explain the back story of the why of it (what you deserve, that the situation you find yourself in with her makes you feel bad) mostly to yourself.

It's not her job to take care of your feelings. It's yours. If the way she acts makes you feel bad--don't participate. Don't explain to her that her taking you for granted makes you feel like crap--people know that already.

[obliv326]

I appreciate what you are saying. I will say that in this instance, I was trying to use DEARMAN to deal with an issue that was untenable. Part of that is to describe the situation, and to express how it makes you feel.

It is pretty confusing, then, to be told that the very steps you are told to take with a specific tool are the things you should not be doing. Can you see why this is kind of frustrating and difficult to understand and process? I've done my best to use the tools that are presented here, but I'm always doing it wrong. It's difficult enough to try to grasp the actions of this person who means a lot to me and seems to be undertaking a method of action designed to personally damage me as much as possible, let alone to try and use the tools that are supposed to help you interact with these people and to always be doing it incorrectly.

Please don't take this as criticism of your advice. I appreciate it and can't thank you enough for it. But I hope you can see where I am coming from?

[C.Stein]

I understand the second questioning obliv, I've done plenty of it myself.  No matter what you say or do, you will find a way to second question it.  Do you see the egg shells you are walking on? 

[obliv326]

Of course I do. I see it with almost everyone who writes here. It is difficult if not impossible to understand what to do. Almost all of us in this particular forum are dealing with someone who doesn't treat us the way we expect. It throws our entire spectrum off. Yet when you treat them the way someone who acts like they do should be treated, it doesn't work. At the same time, we all want these people in our lives. I know that I love this girl more than I have pretty much anyone for maybe 20 years. Yet nothing I do works. I normally would react negatively to being spoken to like she spoke to me. But if I do that, then I'm JADEing and shaming. However, if I validate, I don't have her respect. And she hands her respect to other people who don't deserve it. So yes... .I'm walking on eggshells because every single thing I do seems to somehow be the wrong move, and for some reason this girl means more to me than almost anyone I've ever known.

And I get that the question is why she means so much, but you need to realize... .I want her, and I don't know if I screwed up and she's gone. Or if I didn't and she's just letting things settle. If she cares for me. If she only wants to use me for what I provide. It's frustrating and enraging and terrifying all at once. I have no idea what to do, and in reality, she's the one behaving badly.

So yes, I see the eggshells, because she's extremely important to me, she hurts me very deeply, I want to change that. There is every reason I should be able to say "what the heck is wrong with you? You know how to behave! You've done it before! How dare you treat me like this?" but I can't. So I come looking for tools, and every single one I try to use is also somehow wrong. So yes... .I'm absolutely confused and frustrated and I have no idea what to do. I just wonder if I can fix it.

[patientandclear]

Effective use of the communications tools takes practice, DEARMAN in particular. Withdrawal language ("I can't/won't ... ." wouldn't typically fit there. I'm no expert! And my r/ship ended. Maybe others here can give more specific coaching. I don't think the early days of re-establishing a connection would necessarily be the time to go to this level of processing. In any event, less is often more. "I appreciate it when you show you prioritized our plans; it makes me want to keep doing things together" works just as well to get across your point.

In DBT they teach that if you're making a hard ask for something, make sure the other person can give it, or that you really need it, or both. Because otherwise you paint both of you into a corner. If it's something you'd like but it's not essential, and the other person will find it hard, make it a request, not a condition. I suggest you look at her preference for text with you in this way. Again, she is working against some resistance here that is not volitional. Her aversion to real time talking is a self protective mechanism that comes from somewhere (not necessarily to do with you and not necessarily that she is aware of).

[C.Stein]

I just wonder if I can fix it.

I know you know this, but it bears repeating.  You can't fix her (it).  She is who she is.  Your choice now is can you accept her for who she is?  It takes time to learn how to use the tools effectively but understand they may not work, or at least work to your satisfaction.

I get how you feel Obliv.  I have never loved anyone as deeply as I loved my ex.  I see now how I was walking on egg shells as well and it came at a very high cost to me.  When will the cost be too high for you?

[obliv326]

I want to thank both of you for your input. Again, it is really appreciated.

Just a little clarification regarding some things that might help clarify a little... .The aversion to real time communication and meeting in person are limits I am not willing to accept. It has caused lots of problems before, and led to the biggest, most damaging argument we had. She knows this is a big issue for me and that it hurts me a great deal. She knew that when she agreed to meet me. I went to DEARMAN because this is a deal breaker. If she is not willing to have an actual, real life relationship with me, then I'm not interested in being in her life at all. She has known this and has had a year to accept my position on it. The fact that contact has recently been reestablished, frankly, only solidifies my feeling on the matter. She asked for a lot, most recently several months of "space", essentially giving me the silent treatment because some friends of mine called her out for her inexcusable behavior. As far as I'm concerned, she has known how I feel and has had plenty of time to come to terms with it. If she couldn't handle it she could have been honest and said so, at any point in time, instead of making up some dumb excuse. I am frankly sick of having to ask about it. She agreed to meet. She knows how plans work. It's time that this stops being an issue. I was more than patient. She's had plenty of time. I don't see what giving her more time to accept the idea is going to do but keep it from happening. She is already of the opinion that it's always better to avoid things and do it later, so letting her get away with it over and over is only going to lead to more avoidance. This situation made it clear to me that if given the opportunity, no matter what the cost to me or her, she will always opt to stay in her comfort zone. That is untenable to me, and I decided that now is the time to put my foot down and say what I want. With all due respect, the timing may not have been perfect, but it will never be perfect. She is never going to get there on her own volition... .Or if she does, it will be years down the road. I'm not okay with that. If she can't have an actual relationship with me then she gets no relationship with me.

And my comment about fixing it was more about what damage I may have done in what I've said. I know I can't fix her. I can accept her for who she is, but I have feelings as well. They matter and I've sacrificed them for a long time. I figured the renewal of contact was a good time to start a new set of behaviors. This is a chance to change the way we interact since we've had several months to break those patterns.

So, again, I used DEARMAN because this is something I have to have for the relationship to continue. I hoped by broaching the topic and asking to meet with the bonus of giving her something she needed, it would be a chance to start a new set of because and expectations. When she acted like she did, I decided that was a time to establish a boundary, before it gets ingrained. So I used that technique.

If she is incapable of having a real relationship with me, I will walk. Her life will be much worse for it

[Conundrum]

Hi Obliv,

I remember when you first started posting. I think it's commendable, the effort you've put in attempting to incorporate tools. However, you might be getting a little too hung up fretting over whether you're utilizing them perfectly. None of us, will ever be perfect in our interactions with our pwBPD, and you're entitled to cut yourself some slack too in this process.

When you want to invest in someone--there's a great aspirational presence lodged inside our beings/hearts. Can you see/feel that desire and let it comfortably rest for a bit without intruding into your perception.

The vibe I get from your posts are that you feel--you're a good guy, who can offer her much more than her casual other guys and that she's making a host of poor decisions--and would be much better off being with you.

On some levels that may be a true perception, however--said reasoning may mean little to an untreated pwBPD (and isn't she also rather young too--I think you previously mentioned that?)

Though, what if the validation she feels from being with/playing with/having drama with a number of guys trumps her interest in being with one stable guy. That type of "playing around" isn't all that unusual within many subsets of people--and age, maturity, values, and the presence of a disorder (or traits) will certainly play a factor.

What if at this point in life she is relationally incapable of valuing what you have to offer (not because of who you are) but because she has not matured into that level of development in her own life.

Clearly perceiving a relationship's limitations is a condition precedent to radically accepting the foreseeable structure that will develop. If it all went your way, how would you envision this relationship developing? Do you see her morphing into a stable angel--being all that you want her to be--or do you envision another probability?

Power dynamics are in play here. Offerings, be it money, gas, whatever--when there isn't that type of close domestic arrangement--doesn't help. It creates an artificial dependence that subtracts from the substantive connection that you're looking for. Look, it sounds as if she is able to receive validation from guys on demand. You cannot, nor should you feel that you have to compete with that. Those are her relational limitations and/or the life path that she has chosen for herself.

While a bit simplistic, the most effective element that you can demonstrate towards her (at this point) is that you want her less than she wants you. How you go about illustrating that that is up to your discretion, though it doesn't have to be disingenuous. Sometimes just modeling that you have your life together--and she's invited to share the ride is message enough. But when the object of your desire knows in her bones that you're life isn't going to be derailed, or turned upside down due to disordered mechanics--that a strong demonstration of leadership. Leave her wanting more than you're offering. I wish you well.

[patientandclear]

It's great that you have a clear sense of your own boundaries.

I would just flag that it's unlikely that her "thinking about it" is going to make a dent in her aversion to direct contact.  Slow progress with positive reinforcement for what you want, and non-shaming boundary enforcement when it doesn't go as you need it to, is probably what would be counseled on the Improving board.

[obliv326]

Thank you both again for your input and feedback. It means a great deal to me.

To just answer some of the questions you posed... .The reason I have the feeling about being a good guy vs some of the guys she has been so willing to trust is because she has told me a few times, and even written about it, that guys are more than willing to use her sexually. She has wanted someone who wanted her for her. That's what I am. And the other guys are the former. She has talked about how it is damaging to her. Not only does it damage her self esteem, but it is compulsive behavior she engages in when she is triggered. After we had our big fight, she engaged in a bout of reckless behavior that began with a bunch of sexual acting out, continued to irresponsible purchases, and eventually led to her quitting her job and moving. Her current situation, where she is stressed and having anxiety attacks, is directly attributable to her poor decision making, and sexual acting out is part of that. So as someone who is concerned for her welfare... .Let's face it. I'm head over heels in love with her... .I hate seeing that happen, not just for me sake but because I love heard her say how damaging it is.

I get that she is getting woke validation from these encounters and that it might be a relatively normal course of action. I could accept that, but honestly, I would want to be included in that group. The fact that I'm not just hurts.

I can accept also that maybe what I bring to the table is not necessarily what someone in her age and with a disorder finds appealing, per se, except for the fact that I am attractive and bring a lot of that type of energy. Still, I may be seen as the stable, reliable type, and she wants a bunch of wild, no strings attached type encounters. Fine. She does keep bringing me back, though, and shares things with me that seems to indicate a certain level of trust. I do get the difference, but for me I don't want to be on the outside of that circle. I let her have her way about it because she said she took awhile to get comfortable with people, but she also knew it bothered me, as I said before. Once she started giving away the contact that I had worked so had to attain to guys she met in sleazy clubs, it started to seem pretty personal. I'm just not okay with that now. Hence my reaction.

I guess my answer to your question about whether I possibly may not be what she's looking for is just that. I'm not willing to be the stable guy on the outside anymore. Even if I could accept that it may be part of her disorder, by this point it just has too much attached to it for me to be okay with it. Not to mention I believe she used it as a way to hurt me knowing it was a sore spot. So I need that weapon removed from her hands. If she wants me around, and she certainly seems to, even if it is only bc I have her money, then this is something I need. I feel the time to draw the boundary is right. I just spent months without her. If she's going to reject me on those grounds, I'd just as soon it be now before I get too attached again.

If it all were to fall my way, I would not see her as a stable angel. Not at all. I would just hope that the fact that I know a bit more of what I'm doing, and want to be with her through thick and thin, will help me get over the rough patches.

And referring to her thinking about it and the aversion to direct contact, what you are suggesting is exactly what I did. For months I let her move at her pace and slowly open up. But as I said, she knew this was a serious issue for me and it finally came to a head last spring. I wrote about it here, but it had to do with this very issue. She came down to visit (she's from my general area) made plans to visit with everyone else but didn't make plans with me. I was in a stressful situation and snapped, just unloaded on her, and gave her an ultimatum, which is why I am so aware of NOT doing that now. It turned into my worst nightmare and just kept getting worse, culminating in 6 months of silent treatment while she went on her wild sex binges. She reached out to me in September and we started some contact, which is currently not happening since last Thursday and the "flake" incident. My point, I suppose, is that she has been given plenty of opportunity to do things at her pace. She has been very aware that it hurt me deeply and that it has caused a lot of problems, and she had 6 months where she had as much space as she wanted. There was a similar incident earlier last week where I was going to meet her to help out and initially she wanted me to meet her at a meeting. When the meeting was cancelled, suddenly she was too tired and couldn't give me a time. She knew this bothered me even earlier in the week. She knew it when she agreed to meet me. So I guess, she's had time, her own pace, and knowledge that it would cause problems as incentive to get past it. And now she knows it is a boundary for me. As we all know, this is a behavioral disorder, and can be learned. At some point, she would have to venture out of her avoidant posture if she cared about spending time with me. And honestly, I don't know what else I can give her. She doesn't seem to have given any indication that she's going to even make an effort to change the behavior, and giving her more time or space just seems to be giving her more of a chance to duck and dodge and avoid. So I really don't know what else I could have done, honestly. As I said, it's not something I'm okay with. It has to stop, for my sake. Allowing it to continue without comment seems to almost be encouraging the behavior at this point. We are reestablishing contact so the pattern isn't ingrained... .It seemed like the time to take this step. Is my logic faulty?

Of course, at this point, she hasn't responded and probably won't until she has de-stressed or needs something from me or feels guilty or misses me. I was considering sending her a message today that would allow her to avid a confrontation... .Something like "look, I know you're stressed and this isn't the kind of thing you want to deal with ever, let alone at a time like this with all of these things happening. So here's what I'll do... .You know what I'm saying I need you to do. If you will make a concerted effort to move my situation to where I'm not just a guy you text, but to have a real life relationship when you are in a more stable situation, then you can respond to the paragraph below", which will have nothing to do with the level of contact situation.

I'll then make reference to something else... .Star Wars, walking dead, something else we have in common... .And that way she avoids the discussion, which I know she's doing, and I'll feel better. Thoughts?

Yes, I know she might lie, but I'd like to do what I can to de pressurize the situation, esp since it seems I could have handled it better.

Otherwise it might be months. Or, if she thinks I'm angry, longer. I would anticipate her reaching out at some point, but I don't want another 6 months of the silent treatment. It really should be a boundary as well, frankly. I just don't know if taking that step is wise at this point.

Anyway, I'm guessing that it's probably a bad idea, and I'm open to that discussion. I don't think it seems particularly desperate, as it is mostly an attempt to give her a voice that she is loathe to use. And since I'm not begging or chasing really, but trying to open contact again. I think my chances are better when we're talking... .Although maybe not? It also seems to me to be a "take the bull by the horns" move rather than a sit back and wait thing.

Yes, I know I'm walking on eggshells. I hate it. I hadn't  had these feelings for anyone in over 15 years until I met her, and I honestly don't know if me heart will let it happen again. So yeah, every step is drought with life or death... .And actually, if it was only that important, I'd be less nervous. I feel like my eternal soul is at risk. She tore me to pieces once, and then sought me out again. I lived without her for 6 months but it was barely living. I need to see what this can be, and so yes... .Every step is terrifying.

I do, sincerely, thank you for your feedback. It does mean more than I can say and I take every word to heart. So thank you again, not just for me, but for everyone here. If it weren't for this board I don't know what I would do!

[obliv326]

My brain is trying to convince me that the message I mentioned above is the right way to go. I brought it up to one of my female friends and she said it sounded okay. So if you have opinions and words to keep me strong... .Anyone!... .I could really use it.

Or maybe it is a good idea? I don't know... .Lost in the wilderness here. Help!

[patientandclear]

Are you changing your boundary as previously stated?  (If so, that's rarely a good idea.)

If you're not changing it, why are you reiterating it?  You already said what you need ... .as you point out here.

The structure of "if you'll capitulate you can have this goody" certainly gets my back up.  It feels controlling.

You already said your piece.  And if you guys have a good time together, if there is anything compelling about this, she already knows what it is.  You don't need to put another piece of bait on the hook, which is how this feels to me.

You don't like that she isn't responding favorably, or at least not yet, to your last message.  That is your own feeling of discomfort to deal with.  Another move more or less in the same direction isn't likely to improve matters.  And if the new message undercuts the last message, that is its own problem.

Seems like you might need to work on becoming comfortable with uncertainty and the possibility that she doesn't want to meet your needs.  I know that's hard.