Vindication, or Just a Mess?

[Turkish]

She left coming up on three years ago.  Two years ago after new year's was the last time she was angry with me. I confronted her a year later after she went overseas with her beau and got engaged. I took care of the kids of course.  I told her that only 10% of remarriages to affair partners lasted longer than 6 years.    I also ridiculed the idea since he was 8 years younger than she,  18 more than me.  I later found out, just this past summer,  that the spread was 10-10-10, him being 21 when they first hooked up,  she 31 with two little kids.  Not my best moment,  but the last time we had anything close to an argument.  She was so sure of herself.  I thereafter let it go.

Things haven't gotten better since she assaulted him two months ago.  Tonight,  she said she's making plans (to leave).

Though he has his own anger issues,  she triggers him by shaming. S6 talked to me about some stuff this past week.  He was sympathetic to him,  not her.

So did I get what I wanted?  That it wasn't me?  If course some of it was me,  detaching while in the r/s, so sick of the shaming and WOE not knowing who I'd awake to on a Saturday morning even if the previous night was good.  I didn't always handle it well. I'm a super independent person.  My failure was taking words at face value while not seeing the truth underneath.  That's in the past,  moving on... .

So we are left with his huge,  unnecessary drama.  I'm not even saying what I've wanted to say for three years,  anticipating this,  "you've sure made a mess of all of our lives." She knows it.  No need to shame further.  The danger is that she's still hiding this,  trying to control it,  not having told her family this yet. I think this is a mistake because her H seems sold on the fantasy of this family unit.  He's using religion to forbid her from divorcing. Never mind the whole adultery (I'll concede this one given that we weren't married), but the coveting commandment for sure. I think he's been punished (by her) enough.  If he's smart,  he'll let it go and get on with his life.  She doesn't even trust him to watch the kids by himself anymore.  

It's all but done,  no matter all of the therapy and recent couples counseling. I can take the drama and deal with it (I grew up with a BPD mother after all which was constant drama), but our poor kids don't deserve this.  Like me,  and like her (with BPD parents), they'll just have to play the hand they've been given.  I'm not angry at this point,  I'm just sad for our children.  

Edit: she just asked me if she could move back in for 6 months to save money.  Huh?

[valet]

Funny how another person's misery never really acts as vindication to us as we grow older and wiser, isn't it?

That does seem like a mess. And it is largely her mess. I'd say it's time for charts and arrows for you in figuring out a plan for the kids. They've been you're number 1 priority for a while now in this ordeal. I don't mean to minimize this too much, but it might help to just think of this as a bump in the road despite how you feel about the predictability of the situation. This was a likely outcome... .given the circumstances. And you have already shown that you're more than capable of setting appropriate boundaries and doing your best to ensure that they have the best future available to them.

And I definitely would say no to that last second move in request, but I think you already know that.

[jhkbuzz]

Edit: she just asked me if she could move back in for 6 months to save money.  Huh?

And how are you feeling about that^ ?

[Pretty Woman]

Funny how another person's misery never really acts as vindication to us as we grow older and wiser, isn't it?

No truer words written!

[Turkish]

How do I feel? Surprisingly not surprised, shocked, or angry. I waited until this morning to answer. I probably went too long explaining it. I stressed a safety plan. She said she thought about it later last night and agreed bad idea. A little while later she said she needed to fix this (Meaning herself) and apologized for putting me and the kids through this due to her poor choices.

[Warcleods]

At face value, it appears to be a "grass is always greener," failure story.  Now she's trying to weasel her way back in.  I think it takes audacity to do that and then try to reconcile with the exact same person that was betrayed.  It's almost like saying, "you weren't good enough, your replacement wasn't good enough and now I'm going to settle for something that originally wasn't good enough." But hey, at least I'm in familiar territory  If it were me, I'd tell her to "F*** Off."

[Turkish]

Well, there is that,  Warcleods, and a friend at work who divorced a likely Borderline 15 years ago thinks similarly.  However,  we have kids,  4 and 6. Besides, I'm tired of being angry. 

That being said,  I further texted today.  I asked her if she was sure,  that she wasn't being impulsive,  and that I wasn't encouraging this, that I wasn't trying to control her,  but my only concern was that she was safe,  which means the kids.  I asked her if she had anyone wise in her life to talk to,  other than those who from my view were dysfunctional enablers the last time.  I know exactly whom she talked to then because she shared some of it with me at the time. 

She said this is why she is sharing with me,  that most of the people meant well, but they weren't helpful. I should have left it there,  but I asked what she meant. 

A few hours later,  she texted back that she shared with them her feelings,  and that they told her to move on and find her own happiness.  I'm sorry l but life isn't Eat, Pray, Love. Then she said that she realized that it was her desire to be about her rather than fighting (herself?) for our family. Really?  We had a 1 and 3 year old at home.  S then 3 used to ask.  "Where's Mommy?" D then 1 articulated stress as she could.  What a bunch of empty,  self centered people.  Though most of them were girlfriends, not all were.  I see one of them at birthday parties twice a year.  I was angry earlier, then t not,  but am again.  However, I'm smiling,  because I think I'm acting like that unnamed  character from The Simpsons who used to say,  "what about the children?" Humor=internal self-soothing technique.

[patientandclear]

Both vindication, and a mess.  What you wrote about "you sure made a mess of all of our lives" is so simple and yet it pretty much sums it all up.  It's a waste, but it happened.  Her analysis that people encouraged and supported her to take the easy way out and indulge her impulses is very interesting.  So sad.

[1989]

Turkish,

I hope you will not allow her to move back in.  That is the 'fixer role' again.  She made her messy bed and now she needs to lie in it.  She can find her own place to live, even if she has to move in with several friends/family.

She is once again looking for a quick fix.  If you allow her to move in, regardless of what you tell the kids, they will believe in their sweet, innocent hearts that all is well.  That Mommy and Daddy are getting back together.  And it will CRUSH them when she decides that what she thought was the answer was not.

You need to let her go.  She is the mother of your children.  Nothing more.

[flourdust]

Both vindication, and a mess.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's not a show you can watch from the safety of your living room, enjoying the vindication. It's something that has plenty of potential to grab you in its tentacles and pull you in. Do what is necessary for your kids and avoid entanglement in everything else, no matter how tempting.

[Herodias]

I know what you mean about waiting for this moment to arrive... .I think I will be waiting much longer than you, but I do think it's a vindication.  I doubt it feels as good as we thought it would. She could recycle him too... .sounds like she is trying to get you back into the mess. Try and stay calm and non reactive if you can. I heard the two best lines for dealing with them and their actions; " It's not that they aren't aware, it's that they don't care" & "It's not that they don't see, they disagree"... .Hope everything works out for every one involved.

[Turkish]

Anyone with a lick of common sense could have predicted this. I did, and predicted the violence, too. In other news, I got a call from the neighbor, and my mother took a bad fall and the ambulance just took her away. So problems here, and problems 130 miles away with a pwBPD who's painted me persecutor. They may not even call me due to medical privacy laws. Wonderful.

[Grey Kitty]

I see the vindication. Evidence that it wasn't you that caused all this last time 'cuz it was as bad or worse without you, and that you were correct in seeing that this wasn't likely to go well.

And no, it doesn't taste all that good, and any "good" feeling about it sure doesn't last long.

All that is left is the mess. And that your children will suffer from it. Sigh.

Edit: she just asked me if she could move back in for 6 months to save money.  Huh?

I'm assuming you have joint custody with her. Can you offer to take the kids 100% as long as she needs when she first moves out? It should be cheaper/easier for her to find a place for just herself than for herself plus two kids.

[Turkish]

I offered that.  When she assaulted her H in front of the kids and told D4's T in front of me,  the T suggested they stay with me until things calmed down.  My ex refused.  She doesn't have me,  she's detaching from her H. She only has the kids.  This isn't simple. D4 called her tonight.  She sounded ok, but that doesn't mean anything other than what it is for today.

[KateCat]

I know you knew this crisis was coming in one form or another, Turkish. Would it make sense for you to add some extra sessions with your own fine therapist to help keep you on track until your ex gets herself resettled?

[Turkish]

I have an appointment this afternoon.  I need insight on how to explain this to the kids as well (yet again),  which sounds like soon. 

[KateCat]

You've been so steady. Yet this is really tough. 

[Turkish]

Talked to the T today.  His rates are going up to $200/hr the first of the year.  They already went up,  but he's given me a break since I'm a good customer.  Silicon Valley. 

I talked a little first about my mother.  I wasn't going to share this here and mix boards, but he agreed with my actions, even not wanting my BPD mother back in my home,  "you're not a hospital." Digest that as you will according to your detachment from your romantic partner.  I'm digesting it given mine. 

All in all,  he observed that me being stable, not to mention kind,  was attractive (Objectively), so it wasn't surprising that my ex is reaching out,  though I really don't feel this is a recycle.  She's vulnerable now on so many ways: emotionally, financially.  I feel that in some way I could push a recycle.  Recycles take two,  however.  I'm not a victim,  but a survivor. 

I bemoaned the fact that yet again I'd have to explain a husband going away.  My T said that it was better in the long run (even though I told him about S6 being sad how his mom treated his step dad. ... a concept which I had to explain to the kids). That SD was basically a boy and as he grew,  SD wouldn't likely be able to provide what S6 needed.  He's 24. I'm 45, but even at his age,  I was far ahead of him in so many ways.  So was my ex (at least externally). What was she thinking?  My T said that everything I predicted came true.

[KateCat]

As always, your therapist is giving solid, practical counsel regarding your mother. (In my opinion, anyway.)

You and he then spoke about your ex's vulnerabilities at this time. That part sounds solid too.

I'm not following as well the discussion about your own vulnerabilities to this new situation. You knew it was coming in some form, and you had a plan for meeting it. But now you're facing it for real. And it's potentially open-ended as a situation/choice/temptation. That could be perilous even to strong resolve. And it seems that the thing you are having to ask yourself to resist is the thing that you have wanted most in your life: a complete family.

[Turkish]

Thanks for throwing water in my face KC. I hadnt thought of that,  my deep desire or need.  Like when my ex said that (in retrospect) she should have fought for our family rather than chasing her own desires. As much as I couldn't stand being in the same room with her the first year,  I let that feeling go away.  it would be unhealthy and dangerous for us to be in close proximity again,  not because I fear being punched.  

My T asked me today what I've done lately for fun.  I should have anticipated that, one of those therapist "tricks." I just gaped at him.  He said,  "what,  nothing?" I did the Peanuts trombone "wah-wah-wah-wah." He laughed.  

I signed papers to refi my house today into a 15 year loan.  Next is deciding how to disposition it to make sure my ex can't get control and likely mess it up.  A lawyer.  More money.  :)ecisions.  Where's time for "fun? " the question really was,  "what are you doing to take care of yourself?" I haven't a clue,  and it doesn't register with me.  It might seem hypocritical that I ask the same question here of others on occasion, but I'm concurrently searching for an answer myself.  Maybe there is no answer that anyone else can give us.  

[Unstoppable]

Turkish, I would just like to commend you on your ability to let your anger go and putting your children first. I know that is not an easy task with a pBPD mom to your children. In the end your children will come out the winners with your stability. 
Try to schedule some "me" time to recharge your batteries. This situation has the potential to be very draining!

[KateCat]

My T asked me today what I've done lately for fun.  I should have anticipated that, one of those therapist "tricks." I just gaped at him.  He said,  "what,  nothing?" I did the Peanuts trombone "wah-wah-wah-wah." He laughed.  

 

My sister is a fan of the genre of "memoirs of really horrific childhood," or something like that. So she sends me her copies of stuff like The Glass Castle. I think she is on a perpetual quest to convince herself our own childhood wasn't that bad. (And god knows it wasn't.)

But yours was that bad. I think that like the author of Glass Castle you may fall into that rare bird category of adult who went on to "thrive" following such a childhood. But really, those of you who did aren't like the rest of us. And maybe in some ways even beyond the complete understanding of a therapist who has not had a similar experience.

I was kind of wishing a new woman had entered your life by the time this inevitable dislocation of your ex's life presented itself. This is going to be really tough.

That's all I've got.

[Panda39]

I'm not trying to offend here but, to me you seem very involved with the ex and her life and her drama.  I get that you want her stable for the kids and that yes you must have some relationship with her because of the kids but I question your roll with their mother. You are not her husband, lover, father or in some ways even her friend... .she is your ex-wife.  For the next 10+ years are you going to be her caretaker, support, advice provider so that she is stable for your kids?  What are your boundaries around this relationship?   What are you getting out of the relationship the way it is?

I agree with your T there is a lot of focus on other people what about you? 

Just some food for thought.
Panda39

[Sunfl0wer]

My thoughts are along the lines of Panda39, yet, I was worried about appearing offensive, so I'm cheating and chiming in after it has been said.

I always relate to your story Turkish, I too was adopted, and to a woman with uBPD.  I was raised to believe that my value, my worth, was in what I could provide to others in some form.  Having needs, desires, enjoyment for myself was not really a part of my upbringing.  I too find it hard to take time for myself to enjoy life.

After my breakup, I am facing a reality that there may be a better way to assign myself value.

I am trying to find value and appreciate myself without that being DEPENDENT on me "giving"/"helping" others.

Not saying being a giver or helper is bad.  (I think I even recall your T reaffirming this script of yours)

Just that I feel it is important that I have a sense of Self beyond it being attached to other people and such. 

I hope that makes sense.

[Grey Kitty]

Recycles take two,  however.  I'm not a victim,  but a survivor.

And it seems that the thing you are having to ask yourself to resist is the thing that you have wanted most in your life: a complete family.

Storytime: I've got a dear friend. She has a 4yo son now. ~Three years ago, she went from victim to survivor, got her abusive BPD/NPDh out of the house, legally separated and over a couple years went to thriving. Son was doing great. Her career was taking off. Found a good non-abusive boyfriend. Broke up with him cleanly because he wasn't right for her, and went forward. Is spending time and energy on amazing friends. Even finding peace with BPDmom, a combination of kindness and good boundaries. BPD/NPDh was doing pretty well, was responding to boundaries well. Did well at coparenting (still mentally ill, so flaked out occasionally, but whatever. He was 100X better than when they were married and living together.) Son really loved his dad.

A career change pushed them into a situation where it "made sense" to move back in together, as more of a coparenting, companionate marriage. They did so, ~six months ago.

A month in, my friend knew it was going badly. Never quite as bad as when she was a victim, but it was going badly. And she was trying to convince him to go gently. She was afraid that if she forced him out, he would have a complete meltdown and it would be bad for her son. They went back and forth... .he would agree... .then dysregulate and not leave. Five months went by. This weekend she plans to move herself and her son out. Final divorce paperwork/negotiations are underway.

This friend wasn't a victim. She wasn't even surviving. She was thriving. Nobody in my life is stronger, or has better boundaries.

And she just acknowledged to her self (and me) that her r/s with NPD/BPDh is unhealthy and has to change.

That she even tried this is almost insane. That she did this without falling back into accepting abuse is an amazing indication of how strong she is.

If I asked her how she felt about this whole situation, I'm pretty sure that looking back she would say that it turned out like a bad idea/mistake. She knows it harmed her son, (emotionally) although he should recover. It cost her too, although I don't think it harmed her.

Turkish, she's as loyal to her pack as you are to yours. I don't think she would regret giving NPD/BPDh this chance. She still cares about him. Even though she is more DONE with him today than she's ever been before in her life.



Turkish, it sounds like you are currently surviving well and starting to ask yourself how you can thrive in this world. Keep at it. Please don't kid yourself that you are strong enough to "manage" living with your ex again. Even if you stay 100% strong, centered, and grounded, think about your ex. A pwBPD's behavior gets worse with people the closer they are. Letting her move back in with you will make her worse. Even if you are strong enough to take that, don't subject your kids to it. No matter how enticing the fantasy sounds or looks.

[apollotech]

Hi Turkish,

Wow. I don't really have anything to add, but I am sorry to hear that you and the children are going through this. You've helped me quite a bit on these boards. Just sorry to see you in this. Wishing you and the children the best!

Apollo

[Turkish]

Thank you all for your support and feedback. 

GK- you are right that she still cares about him but is more done than ever. 

After a school function this morning,  I talked to her.  The pretext, and I planned this, was giving her our son's school pictures.  She asked how much she owed me. I said it was fine,  that it sounded like she might need to save (here my tone was careful to not trigger her). I asked her what was going on,  would they work it out.  A 1 bedroom apartment is at least $2k/mo in our town.  That's mid level.  She's still been paying almost all of it,  I'm sure a huge point of contention. 

She said he refuses to go to couples counseling, since he thinks she will use this as an avenue to support divorce. He still goes out at all hours of the night,  not even being there for dinner when the kids are.  Her T, whom she saw 2 days ago,  said it sounded like he was having an affair (I think this too, but didn't say it). I did say,  "maybe,  maybe not, but it isn't like a gym is full of eye candy."  Then she expanded upon the story of where she told me he supposedly "accidentally" slapped her hand.  Here is where I'm not sure where the truth and lies lie. 

They were arguing.  The kids were asleep in the room.  She got so angry she threw her phone at him.  Like last time,  he cried,  "you just battered me!" I was thinking, "dude, this is twice now.  Can you just call the cops?" She stopped and read crawling on the carpet under the table looking for her phone.  Then he punched her hand hard.  He said it was an accident and that he meant to punch the table. Even so,  even if she is also the aggressor (criminally so), punching objects is still DV. So I said,  "so it's still mutual."

She said that she told her T that when she and I would argue,  it never once crossed her mind to get angry enough to hit me.  I'm a calm person.  Almost Zenith  (which drove her nuts in other ways, but I knew when to stop because I read her and the situation).

She said she's told him several times that he needs to leave or she needs to. They are equal on the lease.  It sounded like rents have gone up so she's stuck. She said she can't go back to her mom's house, as her mom would drive her nuts. I agree.  And she pointed out that her brother,  the one who likely molested D4, was there as well. 

As to your point,  GK, I said that it sounded like she didn't love him,  or wasn't in love with him anymore.  She didn't deny it,  though she said she still cared for him.  She might have added "somewhat" but her affirmation was weak. It sounds like the end of next month is her plan. They're both bad actors . I checked his Facebook page and he posted a pic of them,  commenting how beautiful she was and how much he loved her.  Really? He's not taken charge of his home.  Still phoning it in as a H and step-father? He's lost and as stuck as she is.  He's the one I should be helping ("leave, before she further ruins your life or you end up in jail!".

After all that has happened,  she told me that she can't control herself around him (the anger,  battery). And she's telegraphing that she needs physical seperation, also telegraphing that it will get worse. It will.  I told her again that there were no the strikes here.  So the kids were in the other room asleep.  I said that if it were viewed that they were in danger and I didn't take action,  the kids might end up in foster care while we were both evaluated. 

Here's where popcorn gets thrown at the screen: I sensed that she wanted a hug. She asked,  so I accepted. I told her she needed to be safe. 

I thought about this for a few hours.  She admitted to the T before that she punched her H. It was almost reported to CPS. She knew what the likely outcome would be.  She was lost.  She's still lost.  Maybe me taking action would force this.  And help her not be stuck,  though that isn't my motivation.

We had talked about the kids not understanding him not being there.  I agree,  but though they like him to a degree,  they never attached to him as a step parent.  I don't think they'd be traumatized as much as confused.  This is all around the holidays,  too. Typical drama 

[heartandwhole]

Turkish, it sounds like you are currently surviving well and starting to ask yourself how you can thrive in this world. Keep at it. Please don't kid yourself that you are strong enough to "manage" living with your ex again. Even if you stay 100% strong, centered, and grounded, think about your ex. A pwBPD's behavior gets worse with people the closer they are. Letting her move back in with you will make her worse. Even if you are strong enough to take that, don't subject your kids to it. No matter how enticing the fantasy sounds or looks.

+1 for the above, Turkish. I'm sorry you are going through this. I can imagine how difficult it is to find time for your wellbeing and growth in the midst of working so hard to do what's right for your kids. I really admire your strength and balanced actions/reactions.

This situation reminds me of a test: are you going to revisit your past, hoping to evoke a different outcome this time? Or are you going to do the in some ways much harder thing and keep moving forward, growing and learning how to turn toward yourself? For many of us, our default mode is to turn toward others for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes it's really hard to stay put, to keep looking at ourselves and find answers within. That has been my experience; I wonder if it resonates at all?

heartandwhole

[KateCat]

Oh no, where do people come up with these situations to torment you?

Is there another source of aid your ex can turn to, including social services, during this time of transition for her?

 

[flourdust]

You are so clearly taking the role of Rescuer in the drama triangle. Surely you see that?