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Author Topic: I believe I have reached my exhaustion point  (Read 501 times)
Oncebitten
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 09:37:42 PM »

skip


Believe me I know I need these tools and I am using this time apart to learn them.  We are speaking again and I know all to well that it is to easy to jump back into old habits with her.  And I also know that it has to be me to change the dynamic.
Also want you to know I really appreciate your input and advice.
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 09:48:15 PM »

Watched the video. This girl is as stunning as her sweater. But seriously she does have some good points to make about having BPD. She owns it though. Many never do. Do you think that is more prevalent in people that have the NPD cross-over?
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2017, 06:57:35 AM »

Skip,

I am going to try and type out what our main conflict/fight always is. I will start with her.

She will get sad and I will ask what is wrong?
"I just think about what we have and how much I love you and how I want more.  And then I think about where we should be in this relationship, and it makes me mad bc we arent there.  We should be on vacation together and we should have already done these wonderful things.  I was so looking forward to our trip, that was everything to me.  Amd you took that away from me, you took that from us.  Why did you have to do what you did this summer, why couldn't you just sit and feel all that pain by yourself just like I did (anger is slowly building at this point)... .but no you couldn't do that you had to go and involve yourself with that stupid slut.  You took everything from us, I will never be able to trust you again, you are nothing but a liar and a cheater.  A weak spineless man, why would I want to be with you?  A man who has no standars, one who is ok with associating with trash.  You are spineless and weak nothing more than an impulsive child.  I am better than that, I am better than you and I deserve better than you, I need to go be with people like me and you can go be with the trash that you love.

As she starts to tell me whats bothering her I validate at the begining.
Yes honey I know you want more, I want more too.  I hate that we have so much distance between us and I cant wait for the day when we can be together.  And share a life.   Yes I know how you feel, I too think about what we should have at this point.  I hate that we had to give up our trip, and I know why we did.  I hate that I took that from us... .(I do a lot of listening during this part letting her get her emotions out).  I know I should have handled this summer differently.  Believe me I wish that I had I know how different everything would be if I had.  I know you don't trust me, and I want to continue to work to rebuild that trust.
you are right I have lied to you, but no more... .
(then at some point I get defensive)  I dont love her I never loved her. I dont want her, I never wanted to be with her.  Its you I want and love its you I want a life with. 

this can go on for upwards of an hr, if I suggest we stop and talk later I am a coward.  I get told that if I care then I will be man enough to own what I did and take it. ... .eventually she gets mad declares she cant talk to me and hangs up in a rage... .if I can be calm and wait a few hrs she will calm down... .we have this fight much less now than we used to... .however when we do its just like it happened yesterday.
When something else goes wrong, in life or the r/s this is where we end up.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2017, 09:22:05 AM »

I'm not sure what your goal or desire is in your relationship.  If she's a broken record, the message is the same, the issues are hers.  Why listen?
I don't believe you have an endless obligation to validate and support her for the same thing over and over.  Am I missing something?
It sounds to me like she will keep playing the same record over and over until she gets more of what she wants.  There's no future in that.
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 09:38:51 AM »

"I just think about what we have and how much I love you and how I want more.  And then I think... .// ... .you are a man who has no standards, one who is ok with associating with trash.  You are spineless and weak nothing more than an impulsive child.  I am better than that, I am better than you and I deserve better than you, I need to go be with people like me and you can go be with the trash that you love.

There is a deep wound and a lot of resentment over what happened and the way she found out. I suspect, when you boil all of the emotion out of this, it is the lie (s) that is at the center of this. It is where I would focus my efforts to rehabilitate this.

From reading what she wrote it looks like the way she is trying to process resentment and hurt is to beat you down. She wants you to live her pain. This beat down is relieving some of the hurt she feels by putting it on you. Dysfunctional. Yes. But it works for her.

The problem is that while she gets some immediate relief from the beatdown, it opens the door all kinds of boundaries busting and she is losing respect for you each time you accept this. If you don't value you, there must be something wrong with you.

You keep trying to solve it as if it is puzzle and there are words that will solve it. She doesn't want to solve it, she wants to relieve her pain.

The focused question becomes, how do you rehabilitate the lies in a healthy way and how does she resolve her natural "BPD"  internal mood swings which now land on the trust issue as a target and she then seeks to beat you down to feel better?

Every one of the beat downs is like a cancer. It instilling a bad relationship dynamic between the two of you. Its harmful to you - both in how you see yourself and how she sees you.
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 11:58:37 AM »

I think Skip makes a good point about how she is reliving the trauma of the situation and projecting that pain on to you.

I think we do have some grief when what we hoped for didn't happen in a relationship. I've experienced this end of the forgiveness issues over my H painting me black after we first got married. I imagined that we'd have this wonderful newlywed foundation instead of what felt like a nightmare. Over time, this disappointment has dissipated, but I did bring it up - I wanted my H to hear how it felt on my part. It wasn't a right/wrong thing, but I needed him somehow to understand how I felt. He on the other hand, wanted me to forgive, forget and move on faster than it took me to achieve that. This was a battle of "should have would have"- he shouldn't have done that. I should just get over it. But "should have would have" isn't a solution"- just an expectation to be different than we were, which isn't accepting who we are. Neither "should" considered the people that we are- me being someone who needed to work it out my way. Him not wanting to be subjected to that.

If this happened last summer, then it is still emotionally fresh for her. This grief may be cyclic. Instead of expecting it to go away, you might want to consider that it will cycle and the cycles may get less frequent. Can you stay calm and centered when she does- and not defend yourself- while also not becoming a whipping post and being disrespected?

On one hand, she needs to process this and hopefully move on, but it is possible that she may not be able to- at least to the point where it isn't being brought up constantly. You can't really control how she does this or if she can. You also have a choice in this. How long do you want to be put in this situation on the basis of this incident? It may take a long time, but how long you wish to be working on this is up to you.

I don't think you can go wrong by learning the tools and gaining relationship skills- these will help your no matter what- with her, without her. I agree with Skip that to give this a chance, you need to not go back and forth about committing. It may come to a time where you feel you have done all you can, or she decides she can't get over this, or things improve for both of you, but for now, since you are still invested in the relationship- learning the lessons, the tools, working on resolution- when she cycles into this, can some healing occur even if she isn't ready to forgive- seems like a good direction.

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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 01:26:53 PM »

I went through this with my x too. She wouldn't forgive what she perceived to be cheating and lies. Many of the conversations during our four-month break-up centered on the subject.

I finally accepted that she will forever believe that I cheated on her and lied to her. There is absolutely nothing that I can about that. What I also realized was that the more I engaged with her on the matter, the worse things got for me. When I stopped engaging, she all but stopped bringing it up to me. Things got better. She started to forgive. Then I made a bad choice and talked to the ow again and it all came back with a vengeance.

I learned that what was actually going on was that my x thought that I chose the ow over her. It never was about what I did, it was about how my x felt. She couldn't forgive me because there was really nothing for her to forgive and doing so would likely have forced her to acknowledge her own faults. We all know how well that goes for a dysregulated pwBPD.

I can't say that this is what is happening in your world, but the similarities between our experiences borders on scary, soo... .

I want to caution you though; trying to fix it may cause you more harm. By trying to tell her that she's always been your choice, you would be telling her that she's wrong. The cycle repeats.

It's best to try to validate how she feels (validate the valid) and not what she perceives that you've done (don't validate the invalid). Makes sense?
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 01:50:40 PM »

My wife still judges me and tries to use it as punishment by not forgiving me for my past behavior with another girlfriend - from two years _before_ I met my wife.  So, for the record, there are no rational boundaries to a disordered person's manipulation.
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »

My wife still judges me and tries to use it as punishment by not forgiving me for my past behavior with another girlfriend - from two years _before_ I met my wife.  So, for the record, there are no rational boundaries to a disordered person's manipulation.

Taking it out of generalities - there were compound lies in this case. There is a reason for the resentment and it would be a serious problem in many relationships. We have to be careful not to bury life issues under the BPD blanket.

It would seem to me that the BPD dysfunction is centered around the effort of projecting her emotional hurt on to her partner. That is the unhealthy part.
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »

Skip

I agree with you completely it is a very deep wound(yes the lie bothers her more than the act). And I know she wants me to feel that with her.  I understand that, and this issue is a cancer that continues to eat at US... .it eats at my patience and hers.  It has gotten to the point where she questions how much she likes me anymore.  But what do I do about her constantly wanting to relive the pain?  I can validate till the cows come home but once she starts its tough to get out of that loop with her.  when  she just mentions it bc she is upset with me, i.e. go call her dont bother me with it... .is it best to just ignore those off hand comments?

Notwendy

you are right, she sees me as the trigger of her pain, and so she wants to project it all back on me.  The cycles are getting far less frequent.  When she brings it up that we shouldn't still be fighting over it I agree, I remind her that we have that fight far less frequently, and that we are in fact getting better.  Too which she usually says if you had been a man we would never have this talk. Its tough to let her work through this without her, not defend myself.  I have no problem validating her concerns of trust, or admitting my faults from the summer.  But once she starts in with name calling it gets tough.  Its not so much that the names really hurt my feelings bc they dont but its tough to let her feel and not be a doormat at the same time.  I am committed... .she is the one up in the air.  But I know that never again with her is not a definitive.  she keeps pushing for less of a commitment, which I can back up a bit with her and slow down.

 But this was the last we talked about it... .her"how about we just be really casual about us? no labels no commitments, just a fwb type thing".  I hesitantly said ok, what all would that entail?  she continued, you do you and I will do me.  I paused and said we can try it but thats not what I want.  (Keep in mind I am trying to feel her out here, she knows I want a commitment, and I thought she did too, so is this a test or would removing the label alone make her feel better... .which if thats all it is fine.)  She said what do you want, I want to be with you... .why would you want to be with someone who is free to mess around with others? 
To which I said I DONT.

Her questions are always loaded... .she knows how I feel.  I know others have said if she doesnt want a label then give her that... .which again fine... .but I refuse to have that used against me later.  Perhaps I am all wrong in this but I would rather stand by what I want, and loose her.  Than appear whishy washy over what I want and loose her bc she feels I am not serious about us.



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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:30 PM »

Meili

I completely agree with you... .and thats what makes all of this so hard.  You are right this is all about her feelings... .and that is her belief I chose the OW over her... .which I didnt.  She gets upset with me bc I havent fixed anything, but I have in fact have.  There is nothing left for me to do... .she has to come to terms with what is going on inside her own mind... .I dont know if she can.   Not sure if this is a situation where time apart would heal it or not... .I have suggested that.  She counters with time apart will only allow her to detach from me and move on.  Keeping me in this limbo which she claims to hate...
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 04:38:12 PM »

Skip

Yes I agree that our problems are not centered around the condition.  In fact I know they would cause problems in any relationship.  Whether you define what I did as cheating or not it would in fact hurt any woman.  The ISSUE is the way she chooses to process her hurt doesnt allow me much room to help or fix.  Like I said in my reply to NW... its hard too allow her feel the pain and feel that with her while being called everything under the sun.  I got no problem with feeling it with her... .in fact I have encouraged her to bring this to me when she feels like this... .and honestly the name calling doesnt bother me but it is a huge violation of boundaries and yes I believe it makes her think less of me.  If calling me names makes her feel better and doesn't make her think less of me I don't give a **** I got thick skin.  But I dont want to become those things in her eyes. 
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 07:25:20 PM »

and honestly the name calling doesnt bother me but it is a huge violation of boundaries

If she's ignoring your boundaries, and you are letting that happen, that's on you and not her. Well, it's on both you because she shouldn't do it, but you can't control her or what she does, only what you do, so let's focus on what you do and you can control.

Why do you allow her to violate your boundaries?
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2017, 07:57:03 PM »

A boundary is a "rule" for you, not her.

An example might be "I won't spend time with someone who is calling me names." Or "I will take a break from communication with someone who is calling me names."

"You can't call me names" is not a boundary, because clearly she can. Boundaries are actually enforceable, because they are rules for yourself.
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2017, 05:38:42 AM »

If you want to proceed with this relationship- then there needs to be some way to productively discuss the issues that are repeatedly being brought up. Avoiding them and then trying to deal with them when she is upset and dysregutating isn't working- because when one is upset, they are not processing. When she is upset, the conversation deteriorates into name calling.

Setting the boundary to not engage in this is a good one, but that leaves a blank- the issue doesn't get discussed. So, this episode is likely to repeat itself. Saying " I will not have this kind of discussion" is fine, but the question is then- when and how to resolve this.

I found counseling to be helpful with this kind of thing- because trying to bring up any issues was triggering, led to both of us feeling defensive, circular arguments and no resolution. If my H got angry at me, all that accomplished was for me to not bring things up. But this isn't a good way to solve issues between people. A counselor served as a referee- kept the conversation on track, kept it from deteriorating to insults.

Feeling like infidelity occurred, or that you were not truthful about things is emotionally tough- for anyone- not just pw BPD. It may be that neither of you has the skills to talk about this without getting upset about it. What the two of you are doing is not working- if it did, it would work. Maybe being pro-active and setting up a way to discuss this when both of you are not upset might work.

It seems that you want this relationship no matter what, even if you will be dealing with this for the long run. Maybe take the bull by the horns- with boundaries. When she isn't upset, sit down and say " we keep having this conversation, and I understand that you are very upset about this issue. I would like to try something different to see if we can do better. Would you be willing to go to counseling with me to discuss this? Maybe a counselor can help me understand this better" ( note the emphasis on "me".

Now she may react, call you names. The boundary can be " I don't wish to have this discussion this way, but I care about understanding how you feel and would like to discuss this another way" and then disengage.

What I am thinking is that just setting a boundary on the circular discussion doesn't offer her a solution. Saying this isn't working but can we seek out something that may work-indicates that you wish to work on this but a different way.


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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2017, 07:03:16 AM »

NW

I have suggested counseling and was told no, I created this issue, why should she go to counseling.
We talked yesterday and this topic was brought up again, I used some of the techniques (as best I could) and while she still hung up angry the conversation did not escalate to the point of no return like it usually does. 

I let her vent did my best to listen with empathy, validated her feelings when they had a real basis and stayed silent when they were completely invalid statements.  I didn't get angry or defensive ... .I essentially let her have her tantrum and wear herself out like you do a small child... .checked in a couple hrs later and she acted as if nothing had happened.   Typically that talk/fight would take 30 + mins and she wouldn't talk to me for 24 hrs... .this lasted maybe 10 mins and we spoke 2 hrs later.
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2017, 08:02:43 AM »

Typically that talk/fight would take 30 + mins and she wouldn't talk to me for 24 hrs... .this lasted maybe 10 mins and we spoke 2 hrs later.

The tools will help you both.

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2017, 08:16:49 AM »

Skip

thank you... .I know they will help and they did... .Just a couple of things kept the fight from escalating.

Did I do the right thing by simply ignoring the completely wrong and baseless statements?
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2017, 08:34:04 AM »

Did I do the right thing by simply ignoring the completely wrong and baseless statements?

Have you corrected them before?

Where any of them violating to you (spineless, trash, etc,)?
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2017, 09:04:38 AM »

I have corrected those statements that are violating to me, such as the name calling, doesn't always go well but I feel like I have the right to defend myself against slanderous comments even if she is hurting. Yesterday was a sticks and stones approach... .again did multiple things at once, stayed calm, didnt validate the invalid, listened with lots of empathy... .so hard to say what worked or if it was just all of the above.

My question was in regards to being accused of things I didnt do... .ie fooling around with this other woman who I do not even know.  In the past I would say i dont even know her and I dont know what you are talking about... .which in hindsight seems like JADEing... .yesterday I simply ignored those comments all together and she didn't fixate on them.
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2017, 09:48:54 AM »

My question was in regards to being accused of things I didnt do... .ie fooling around with this other woman who I do not even know.  In the past I would say i dont even know her... .

You have told her over and over, she heard it, be confident in that. Beside, there is little point in debating when she in "drive"... .she can't listen in that mode, you just prolong and fuel the "drive". Being quiet is not ignoring, it will be perceived as listening. Don't validate the invalid - just give her signals that you are listening. She will eventually talk herself out on all of this.

She may bait you. Don't take the bait.

To me, I would tell her in times of calm that the spineless comments are inappropriate and you would like to not go there. Then, next time she does, politely exit the call. She won't like it and will try to punish you for it. Just wait her out. She'll get the message.

Be strong. Once you get this on a more stable place, you will be better able to evaluate the relationship and your compatibility with her. Bottom line, if you can get past destructive fighting, your relationship is not going to survive.

Three tools that will help:
Listen with Empathy
Drama Triangle
Values/boundaries
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2017, 10:35:31 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.
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