Desperate to save myself and my marriage

[misterblister]

Hi, just over two years ago I posted my intro here. My uBPDw was threatening to leave at the time. I stepped in and she stayed, but I quickly returned to walking on eggshells. In hindsight I see she was splitting as a sort of preemptive abandonment strike.

Now I see I have enabled my marriage of ~14 years to survive by turning both cheeks and defusing the bombs, and by being unnaturally flexible through my lack of self-respect in my unconscious role as rescuer/fixer. I don't know how I kept it up. I cannot do it that way anymore but I want to make a last stand.

Whatever she did wrong, I failed to deal with the dysfunction head-on in a mature and healthy manner. That means I need to start responding firmly but lovingly with boundaries and self-respect. The problem is that when I started trying that recently, it seemed to trigger worse episodes in her. So I pushed pause, so to speak, and backed off and returned to walking on eggshells.

This is where I am at right now and some points I need help with:

1. I must re-gain my self-respect and establish boundaries with her. I realize this may unleash hell, but at the end of the day I want to have a clean conscience knowing I was acting and responding in a healthy, mature manner. Can someone point me to methods and techniques for relating and resolving conflict with a BPD spouse?

One extremely frustrating thing she does when I don't take her bait and try to keep my cool, is that she says I am using the wrong tone of voice. By that point I am twisted in a knot and end up asking if we can't just write letters (Nope).

Another question weighing on me heavily recently is how am I supposed to love and be loved by a spouse who doesn't forgive me? Isn't that a requirement (a boundary) ?

2. I want to save this marriage for the children's' sake. We could debate this for hours, but rather than list all the reasons why, I am convinced that my children will pay a higher price if I leave due to how my wife will respond. She is high-functioning and would no doubt get custody.

My suspicion is that I will revisit this question if my approach in #1 backfires but I am curious to hear from others who succeeded or failed in saving the marriage for the children's' sake.

3. I think my wife wants me to grovel and always be the initiator, the one who initiates all touches and hugs, who forgives but doesn't demand she forgive. I basically feel like I am the parent and she is the crushed unreasonable toddler. That is extremely difficult for me at this stage. Is it because I am a bad husband or have finally found my self respect? Last time I reached out like that it triggered some sort of fear of vulnerability and she viciously accused me of putting on a show of affection for the children. Her conviction was absolute and I was helpless to convince her of my sincere motives. Exasperated, I begged her to provide me a criteria of behavior she would accept as being sincere. She couldn't or wouldn't answer that.

My eldest child even points out I am not affectionate enough. Do I just wince and keep doing it and hope on the 1000th try my wife will magically believe my sincerity and won't knock down the castle I've built? The thing is, all I have read about BPD (and my own experience) tells me that the very thing she wants--intimacy--is the very thing she'll claw me into shreds for threatening her with! It scrambles my brain and heart.

Right now I cannot afford individual counseling, so I dearly appreciate your insights and suggestions and links to resources. I am desperate to move forward and do the right thing for myself and for my family.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

Aside from not having children with my dBPDw, I empathize with you.

When I read your first point about establishing boundaries it struck a chord with me, and made me think about a post I read yesterday about "Extinction Bursts", and how when we establish or re-establish boundaries, behaviors sometimes get worse before they get better.

Your third point about you feeling like her 'parent' though, hit home with me as well.  If I had a dollar for every time I've felt that way, I have a whole lot of money.

So my message to you is you are not alone, do the best that you can to take care of yourself... .easier said than done... .I know.

[SamwizeGamgee]

In many ways, I am noting that I was where you are, with all the fears, caution, uncertainty and inner turmoil.  What you are going through is real.  You are not in an unusual place. It took me a few more years than you have to start peeling back the the curtains.  I felt like you probably feel like according to what you have written.
My ideas about your posts are:
1) - yes.  Previously sheltered BPD abusers do not like you to have boundaries (which are limits on what you will do / accept). It feels like torture to be held accountable for their behavior and choices.  It will not get easier as you get better.  I think of it as setting a bone.  It hurts more than leaving it alone.  There are sources all over the knowledge section of this website.  I think you can get to the answers of your own questions for the specifics.  My wife says that she forgives me, for sins that are very important to her in her mind, such as what I did with a girlfriend two years before I even met my wife!  So, if you've done wrong, fix it and move on.  You can't make her forgive you - and since shame and guilt are her hooks into controlling you, she will never forget them, and I suggest, never really forgive them.  You have to decide how you are going to deal with that idea.  You didn't cause her BPD, you can't cure her BPD, you can't control her BPD.

2) - Stop right now.  Don't assume she'll get custody.  It is perfectly reasonable to expect something like 50/50 custody.  Most dads get defeated in custody because they feed into the traditional divorce where mom gets the house, the kids; and dad gets the bills, and evicted.  Get a good lawyer when needed.  Also, don't stay married "for the kids."  That's making them responsible (scapegoats) for your life decisions.  You may decide to stay married so that you can do such and such for the kids, but, do not assume that the kids are better off if you stay beaten down in marriage.  True, kids thrive better when they are sure of an intact home, but, i suggest that an intact home can be with one parent, sharing custody. 

3) - I hear you!  An early casualty in these abusive relationships is true intimacy and affection.  I learned eventually that fear is not love.  I was expected to do all the initiating and all the "work" which I did out of desperation.  And that's only when she deemed it was okay with her.  Which due to her sullen, passive aggressive, inhibited nature was rare.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey mister blister, Beware of F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), which is the three-pronged pitchfork that a pwBPD uses to manipulate a Non.  If she senses that you are rocking the boat, I predict that you will experience an influx of F-O-G, so get ready for it.  Don't fall for it, or you may find yourself back at square one.

LuckyJim

[misterblister]

@CrossroadsGuyMn - thank you for listening and your encouragement. It matters a great deal.

@SamwizeGamgee - Thanks for your responses. I don't know how you managed to endure longer. My wife's BPD made me first feel like a baffled bad person, then a stupid bad person, then simply a bad person, until finally I just felt I was crazy and incapable of doing right. To your specific replies:

1) So you are still married? How do you handle that day to day? My wife will bring up things I did before I married her, of which I was totally unaware, and interpret them as some sinister act I did to intentionally hurt her. How do you cope with those skeletons dancing in front of you? How do you endure being the falsely accused bad guy? Do you just forgive and forget and accept it's never going to change?

2) Divorce is tough for me conceptually. I was a child devastated by divorce. It was taboo in my world view. I never imagined it a possibility when I got married. I was determined to give my children what I didn't have, a secure and healthy marriage where Dad is always there as a pillar. I have struggled to shake that idealism. I am slowly grasping the concept that me staying and suffering for the kids' sake can be a form of burden/blame on them. I think part of my question in posting here is to find out if it is possible for me to behave in a manner that makes me happier/healthier in this marriage, without worsening the marriage itself.

3) I still can't get my head around BPD. I thought love conquered all? My wife isn't a monster. She can be very kind and considerate and understanding, with deep insights. I don't understand why I cannot just sit down and tell her I love her and that I understand her fears and that she can trust me to be honest and fair and hold her hand while she works through this junk?

@Lucky Jim - thanks for the warning and reminder. My struggle is holding it together when things hit the fan. I am a very sensitive and empathetic type so I quickly feel overwhelmed when things hit the fan, but in particular when I am broadsided by false accusations. I am going to try emailing her to open up communication doors more safely.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Mr. B,

I'm a sensitive and empathic person, too, so I can relate to your fears about holding it together when you are under assault.  It took me a while to get a thicker skin!

Also as you describe, I was committed to my marriage and my kids, and never considered divorce as an option.

What I neglected to consider was the toll that marriage to my BPDxW would take on me physically, emotionally and financially.  I depleted my reserves and ran myself into the ground, at which point I was no help to anybody, particularly my kids.  I'm telling you this by way of caution and to suggest that you take steps to make sure you care for yourself, which is easy to overlook in the throes of a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim

I'm relating this as a caution to you, that it's important to

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'll have to reply more fully later, I have only a little time now.  Advance warning: I might be at a different life stage than you are, and I can't advise much on restoring and improving a relationship.

Quickly though.
I am still married, 19 yrs.  I find my own joy and happiness (and purpose) in things other than my wife and my marriage.  I have kids, and I immerse myself in being super dad.  I figure out what is good for me, and good for them, and do it.  I don't intentionally ignore my wife, but I cut the anchor chain since she really holds back most things I should do. 

As for forgiveness, I didn't really do anything against my wife. Once I grasped that, I forgave myself as needed, and it became irrelevant what my wife thought / said / did about it.  I did do some bad husband things (losing my temper, controlled money too much, wasn't empathetic and validating as I should have been) but, in the grand spectrum of human behavior, I finally accepted that my "Sins" are actually human frailties, or natural human behaviors.  I have matured a lot over the many years, and I realize that I'm actually ok - with more work to do of course.  And again, I turned off the guilt buttons.
I guess you could sum it up as over the recent past, I have fireproofed, bombproofed, guiltproofed, fearproofed, and feelingproofed, myself from my wife.  That's probably not the happiest marriage formula. But, I needed it.  I disconnected just about every attachment I had to my wife. She seemed to operate on a basis of "She's not happy unless I'm not happy."  That had to go.  Meanwhile, she still projects and blames me for whatever suits her mood.

As for me, I am not trying to restore my marriage, rather I am trying to either survive it or end it.  Likewise, I am not trying to save my wife, rather, I survive her.  This may not apply to you or your situation, so my mindset might not be useful for you to hear.
 
I also do long distance running to meditate, cope, and stay healthy.  I also have done more meditation and mindfulness training.  It works for me.  I am choosing to be happy and have meaning regardless of who is around.  I have some old favorite hobbies that I got back into which helps round out my life.  Self care is so very important.

Listen to your gut, as you do it gets stronger.

I will add this bit of wisdom - I told you things I do to make me better, happier, stronger, and more complete.  If I had a good marriage, all the above things would make the marriage stronger, more vital, more fun, and richer.  Stronger healthy people make stronger healthy marriages. The fact that strengthening me and the kids makes the marriage weaker and hurts my wife is a good sign that it is an unhealthy, toxic marriage. 

And of course, my wife is not a monster.  She's smart, talented, capable, and shines from time to time.  To the world she's another Dr. Jekyll.  She has many desirable traits, and we have had good times.  There is however, a Mrs. Hyde that makes the good not worth it.  It's the spoonful of sugar that helps the poison go down.

[misterblister]

@Lucky Jim - Thank you for the reminder. My emotional and physical health has been a concern. I tend to trudge along no matter what, not thinking about my own health; it was only when people were asking me what was wrong, or I had actual health scares, that I started realizing I had limits and could be broken.

@SamwizeGamgee - Thank you for sharing how you have coped. You are further along than me but in fact what you describe seems like where I am headed if I can manage it. A few years ago I actually saved my sanity by discovering (without knowing what it was called then) mindfulness and forcing myself to meditate on the here and now, and taking up a hobby with maximum intentionality. I did not go full tilt with that, however, and found myself unable to surmount the negativity at home.

Given your heroic efforts, I would ask you what motivates you to stay? For me, I picture that somehow if I manage to be strong and healthy enough, it is better for my kids that I am there as a balancing pillar despite the tension and lack of affection with my wife. Is that what helps motivate you?

My worry is from what I have read a lot of people say, in that even if I manage to cope well and survive her and be Super Dad, what am I teaching my children about how a marriage relationship should be, or how a man should love a woman? That seems to be the chief argument against staying for the kids' sake, but of course it presumes that if I leave I will somehow end up in a healthy romantic relationship that I can expose my children to and reverse the damage, right?

I'm curious to know (if you are willing to tell) how do you handle the day to day? For example, do you cordially greet her, hug her, even when she's entirely cold? Do you just power through it like an arranged marriage as part of your duty? Does she complain you aren't paying enough attention to her or being romantic enough and if so, what do you say? What do you tell your kids about the relationship?

[SamwizeGamgee]

You have landed on some very important questions.  I wonder what I'm teaching by tolerating or contributing to a home for my kids in its current state.  
You ask what I am doing and how it works.  I  must emphasize that all I have found now is methods to survive, and even thrive, but knowing full well I haven's arrived.  Some of my tricks are just part of Stopping the Bleeding step - which you'll find more about on the links to the right.
I stay for these reason:
1) Fear of making things worse by leaving and motivating my wife for revenge.
2) A place holder.  When I'm married to her that prevents her from shaking up with a drug addicted pedophile - a wild exaggeration for sure, but, the point is, I want to be present and the man raising my kids.
3) financially I'm supporting everyone, which will continue after divorce for a long while, but splitting the household and increasing expenses. The dreaded "cheaper to keep her."
4) Deeply embedded belief in marriage.  I should have considered divorce in the first year of marriage when problems were clear, but, out of duty, I stayed. Problems grew.  Now with kids, my sense of duty to marriage and children are even stronger.
5) protect the kids.  As you say, if I can model positive parenting and support the kids, I hope they can learn to recognize and benefit from it.  I am still conflicted about what I am modeling though, should they all troop through a cold angry marriage because dad did?  My older HS and college kids seem to not form any romantic interests, much less relationships.  I know it's not for everyone and they don't need to be in love or curious, but, is my example turning them off to companionship?  Maybe.

I do not believe that if I divorce (or not) that I could one day model a healthy relationship by having another marriage that was happy and healthy. I don't think kids understand adult relationships enough to take notes on what dad's doing, and what marriage is supposed to be.  Seeing you happy later I do not think will reverse damage done, maybe add to the confusion and doubt if anything.  There are a few recommended books on parenting in divorce.  "What About the Kids" - Walerstein; "Putting Children First" - Pedro-Carroll, to name two.

To use your phrase, I feel like I'm powering through an arranged marriage, maybe, but I haven't seen one up close, so I don't know for sure. I do know my wife changed when we married, so, in some sense it's a surprise / arranged marriage.

Generally, I still show affection to my wife, with hugs, not kisses (that takes two), kind words, normal greetings, asking about stuff and following up, being empathetic (though my wife would argue here that I do not).  I am who I am, and keep going.  She does complain that I'm not giving her romance, and time, and listening, etc.  I try, but, it is sort of a cycle.  Which comes first, me feeling loved or her feeling loved, then who shows it first to the other and starts it?  Who fakes it best?

In general, I let my DGAF meter creep up, and up, until I started just living my own life.  

I have had occasions in which I had to tell my kids that mom's behavior is not normal (disappearing for the day, crying, lashing out, etc.) and not okay, but, dad will be there and love you and take care of you the best he can.  Sometimes talking about marriage has a "do as I say, not as I do" feeling.

*DGAF - Don't Give a F&&K

[mmcnulty]

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.

I like.
Can you pull the fuse out for me?

[misterblister]

I wanted to share an update since I last posted in January.

SamwizeGamgee's devotion to his children and ideals inspired me to re-enter the fray with renewed purpose and the strongest DGAF armor I have ever worn. Over weeks and months this carried me further--and matured me more--than anything in years. It gave me hope that I can still be a positive role model and father for my children in our household, and stay reasonably sane married to a woman who likely will never be able to love me or allow herself to be loved by me in any lasting mature and healthy way.

Unfortunately my heart isn't protected by this armor. Recently I tried to get closer to her and for a few days it seemed to be happening. My hope was rising and she was even reciprocating a bit. It almost felt natural. You can probably guess what happened. She split me black in What the heck sucker-punch style that dropped me to my knees.

As others here know, when they do that you sort of put them at arm's length and shake your head at how abnormal and unhealthy it is, then you realize you vowed to love them and never forsake them. Then you realize your love and your not leaving is apparently hurting them deeply, but you'd better not stop loving/hurting them or dare leave them because you (and likely your children) will get hurt in unimaginable ways.

The wisest strategy I can think of at this point is to keep wearing the DGAF armor in combination with strictly enforced boundaries but maintaining a careful balance and don't become too tough.

Problem is, last time I stayed firm and stuck to my boundaries, I thought I had discovered that her bark is worse than her bite. In truth what happened is she began painting herself as a victim of emotional abuse, feeding that to her sympathetic family who are nice people but who believe she is the best person in the world. When I got wind of that, I never felt so alone and helpless in my life.

There are no easy answers but I can say I truly respect SamwizeGamgee and understand quite a bit of what he's gone through, although I suspect he is made of stronger stuff than I am.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. B, I admire your courage to reenter the BPD ring, so-to-speak, armed with your DGAF attitude, yet it seems like you wound up flat on your back again, or at least dropped to your knees, which sounds discouraging.  What are your gut feelings?  How do you see this playing out for you?  You don't say anything about your own happiness.  Is that not part of the equation?  It seems like you are living a life of quiet desperation again, which is what I did for many years.  As I mentioned above, it's important to take steps to take care of yourself and recharge your batteries, because it's easy to get run down and depleted, as I did, in a marriage to a pwBPD.  Keep us posted.

LuckyJim

[misterblister]

Hey Mr. B, I admire your courage to reenter the BPD ring, so-to-speak, armed with your DGAF attitude, yet it seems like you wound up flat on your back again, or at least dropped to your knees, which sounds discouraging.  What are your gut feelings?  How do you see this playing out for you?  You don't say anything about your own happiness.  Is that not part of the equation?

Thanks for asking, Lucky Jim. Forgive me if this is long but I'm sure you understand the desperation.

My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father. I have no hope in marital counseling (or resources for prolonged counseling), having already tried it and watched my wife outfox the counselors while nailing me to the cross.

My gut knows I am happier without her. In fact despite all my missteps these ~14 years, I have managed to grow as a person. When I taste life out from under the toxic shadow of this relationship, I am shocked how happy I feel. It's like sunshine on the face of a freed prisoner. I am reminded once again that I'm not a bad person. These convictions are deepened by the fact I am also no longer the pathetic boy-knight in shining armor who sacrifices his health and happiness to save the damsel he cannot save.

My gut also knows my wife is unhappy in this marriage too. Her high-functioning BPD makes the unhappiness more paradoxical, but as best I can tell she fully believes that for ~14 years the man she married undervalues her and mostly doesn't love her. She has more or less tested me to divorce her several times over the years, but my convictions and fear for my children made that taboo. Yet we are both weary and unhappy.

The part I struggle with is that I don't believe divorce would be better for my children, certainly not my youngest. While it's rough for me, I deflect, bite my tongue, swallow my pride, and turn the cheek enough to keep the house fairly calm (albeit tense). My oldest already knows Mom has "issues" but having watched other fathers destroyed by unjust divorce courts (and false accusations by ex's), I can easily see getting less than 50% custody while my wife spins out of control and exposes the kids to much uglier scenes than they witnessed in our marriage. My life experience has taught me that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, except a BPD woman scorned. I could easily see her hooking up with some questionable guys based on past irrational behaviors when she was feeling rejected. I don't think I could live with myself if that happened, and I have no resources for a legal battle. On the other hand, she is high-functioning with many positive traits that may provide enough counter balance. And if she really is that unhappy with me, I expect she's going to feel that delicious sense of freedom too.

So to answer your question, my gut feeling is that I should stick to my boundaries and use the inevitable clashes and splitting to gently test the divorce dialog and watch her behavior as she digests the idea as a real possibility.

I would appreciate hearing your opinion.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Mr. B., Well, I was once in your shoes so I know the quandary in which you find yourself, which can get discouraging.  Yes, I understand your desperation.

My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father.

This actually happened to me, which is why I concur that you can't go on indefinitely in this fashion.  Like you, I was married with two small children.  I depleted my emotional, physical and financial resources to the point where I had nothing left in the tank, so-to-speak.  It's no fun to have a crash landing, believe me.  Fortunately two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me, which brought me back from the brink.

I'm sharing my story as a cautionary tale about what can happen if the deterioration goes unchecked.  Yet you have a lot more self-awareness than I did, which is a positive sign.

I have more to say, but have to sign off for now.  I would like to relate a crazy fantasy I used to entertain about escaping from the toxic BPD soup.  No, you are neither a bad person nor a failure.

Hang in there,

LuckyJim

[dealingwithit]

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.

Best.quote.ever.

[SamwizeGamgee]

MB - it's good to hear from you again.  I read your post and was struck with how well you describe your situation as you have made an assessment, and then more impressed with how I can identify with your comments and feelings.  My wife outfoxing the authorities, while nailing me to the cross is about how I would expect my divorce ordeal to go.  Very well spoken.

I would point out that I think there's no way to gently test the idea of divorce. At least not the reality.  I think we all know that pwBPD hear what they are feeling they are hearing, so, you might think that you are saying something testing, and exploring the idea of divorce, while she might be hearing you apologize for some past deeds. We know that talking to a toddler is different, and they just don't grasp some topics. It's the same with pw BPD, they hear what they want.   

And thank you for your praise, though I shouldn't want to enable someone to stay in an abusive relationship longer than necessary.  So, don't follow me, I'm lost too
Thank you for your kind words though.  We'll keep going and figure this out.

[Grey Kitty]

If you want to save yourself and your marriage, including doing the best you can for your children, there is something they say on every airplane trip:

Put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others.

My point is this--if YOU aren't healthy, if you aren't strong, you cannot make your marriage any better. You cannot do the right thing for your children.

My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father.

And that is key. You need to find a way to make your marriage work that lets you not just survive, but heal (emotionally) and grow stronger.

That means taking care of yourself first.

Taking the ":)GAF" approach often encourages you to stay present with her and try not to be hurt by the rejection, verbal abuse, etc.

While the detachment is good for you, even needed, you still cannot experience this crap without a cost to you. You need to remove yourself more promptly from this kind of abuse. As you practice this, you will get stronger.

In addition, you say you are committed to staying in the marriage for your children. If you do this, please re-define what your marriage will be under these circumstances:

Unfortunately my heart isn't protected by this armor. Recently I tried to get closer to her and for a few days it seemed to be happening. My hope was rising and she was even reciprocating a bit. It almost felt natural. You can probably guess what happened. She split me black in What the heck sucker-punch style that dropped me to my knees.

Your marriage can 'work' but it you will have to hold back part of your heart, knowing you cannot trust her to be gentle with it. She isn't safe to be an open soul mate you share everything with. She isn't capable of doing that.

You need to plan on a marriage where you do not get this from her. Instead, you will be taking on a bit of an emotional caretaker role for her, because emotionally she's not an adult, not somebody you can treat as an equal.

You can't even acknowledge this directly with her or talk about it with her.

[misterblister]

My point is this--if YOU aren't healthy, if you aren't strong, you cannot make your marriage any better. You cannot do the right thing for your children.

And that is key. You need to find a way to make your marriage work that lets you not just survive, but heal (emotionally) and grow stronger.

That means taking care of yourself first.

Taking the ":)GAF" approach often encourages you to stay present with her and try not to be hurt by the rejection, verbal abuse, etc.

While the detachment is good for you, even needed, you still cannot experience this crap without a cost to you. You need to remove yourself more promptly from this kind of abuse. As you practice this, you will get stronger.

Great insight and advice. Can you recommend any resources for learning how to do this?

For example, if I distance myself too far, she becomes incredibly insecure and lights pre-emptive fires that make life hell or lead us to divorce discussion.

In addition, you say you are committed to staying in the marriage for your children. If you do this, please re-define what your marriage will be under these circumstances:

Your marriage can 'work' but it you will have to hold back part of your heart, knowing you cannot trust her to be gentle with it. She isn't safe to be an open soul mate you share everything with. She isn't capable of doing that.

You need to plan on a marriage where you do not get this from her. Instead, you will be taking on a bit of an emotional caretaker role for her, because emotionally she's not an adult, not somebody you can treat as an equal.

You can't even acknowledge this directly with her or talk about it with her.

This to me is the crazy-making part of this. I cannot have a soul mate who is emotionally part three-year-old. And to be unable to mention this to the person whom others see as a wise soul who offers sage advice, is maddening and exhausting.

I think I have resisted this reality and found myself unable to stomach being the caretaker because it seems wrong in so many ways to think of your spouse as another child in your house. I know it deep down but I don't seem to accept it. Plus there's the risk of being patronizing, using the wrong tone, etc. I'm constantly facing these damned if I do, damned if I don't scenarios.

My parental instinct for her last episode would be to say, "Your behavior was completely unacceptable by any adult relationship standards. You were selfish and spitefully cruel. What's more, you never apologized or even acknowledged your part in the episode. You obliterated every kind thing I did, dredged up ancient faults, and behaved like a three-year-old child. Try to imagine how you would feel about me if I did this to you, or held that in front of your nose, or behaved that way in front of our children... ." etc.

Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her. This could be my own flaw but it's the natural course for me and offers a bit of solace, yet is contrary to my notions of love and devotion I want to have for my spouse.

I have read a few stories by people in situations similar to mine. If I manage to pull this off, I think I have a 50/50% chance of her demanding a divorce. She is mostly push these days. I get very little pull, although I appreciate the scraps of kindness when they come.

It took me a long time to learn that love does not conquer all and that shining armor is best suited to the battlefields of war, not love. And yet my children exist because I wore that armor and made those assumptions about love.

My instinct still says if I don't stick to this and embrace the cactus, so to speak, my children are going to become burdened down and robbed. I remember when my parents divorced. It was fun to hang out with dad and invigorating to witness his increased vitality, but when I returned to Mom she was barely holding things together. Life's foundations became spongy and uncertain. It no longer felt as safe to be a kid anymore. I instinctively became Mom's emotional caretaker while Dad became my friend, and I never learned how to take care of myself.

But saying that, I realize I have a chance of demonstrating to my children how an adult takes care of himself.

Now if only somebody could show me how to do that within my own psychic and physical boundaries.

[Lucky Jim]

Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her. This could be my own flaw but it's the natural course for me and offers a bit of solace, yet is contrary to my notions of love and devotion I want to have for my spouse.

Agree w/that, Mr. B.  Towards the end, I came to see my W as a selfish a**h**e with whom I would never want to hang out if we weren't married, which is a sad state of affairs for a marriage.  Yet as one gets healthier, it's hard to avoid that conclusion.  I lost all respect for her (maybe she did for me, too).  Now I can see that it's all part of her disorder, yet it became impossible for me to live with the constant abuse.

I'm not suggesting that you should follow in my footsteps; rather, I'm saying that I understand where you're coming from and will try to help point you in the right direction.

LJ

[Grey Kitty]

For example, if I distance myself too far, she becomes incredibly insecure and lights pre-emptive fires that make life hell or lead us to divorce discussion.

You can't avoid that. Or at least you can't avoid all of it. If she can beat you down by lighting fires and threatening to divorce you, you lose. When you try to enforce boundaries, she WILL resist, she will escalate her bad/abusive behavior.

You have to pick your issues, take your stand, and power through it. (NOTE: There is a lot more detail to what and how, more tools, and we can help you plan for it... .but the start is deciding that you are willing to do what you can to make things better in the marriage that you have.)

This to me is the crazy-making part of this. I cannot have a soul mate who is emotionally part three-year-old. And to be unable to mention this to the person whom others see as a wise soul who offers sage advice, is maddening and exhausting.

Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her.

You are attached to the idea of an idealized soul mate partner who is devoted to you and is an emotional equal. Perhaps she exists. But the woman you are married to isn't capable of that ideal. Not even close.

Your choice to stay in a marriage for your children is your choice to have a different kind of marriage than that. Yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow, and maybe you cannot do it.

But pretending that she is somebody she's not and is capable of things she's not will only make for more suffering for you, and her as well. As you said, she's not happy with the status quo either.

[insideout77]

Mrblister:

It sounds like your doing an amazing job working on yourself and getting your life straight.

I can empathize with what your going through being in my 2nd year divorced from a exBPDw high functioning. we we're married for 14 years and i have 50/50 custody for the 5 kids ages 13 and younger.

Don't believe the naysayers that the courts will believe her, as she has convinced you that she is as close to perfect as they come, it has nothing to do with why you get custody and everything to do with what is best for the kids.

Work on taking care of yourself and building up your self esteem. A healthy you would not even consider staying with an abusive spouse.  Yes it will be challenging for you and the kids, but at-least you have a shot while now, you know you don't.  

My Ex continues to act as the victim with the kids so they kids DO feel bad for her, but on the flip side, I'm not their friend, rather I remain the Father. I'm trying to teach them healthy boundaries, self respect, empathy and confidence so they don't repeat the cycle when they grow up.  They don't have to love me now as their friend (a mistake many make) they just have to respect me as a father and someone who only wants the best for them.

Once you get out of the FOG (Fear, Guilt & Obligation)  you will see the world in a whole different way. Your biggest struggle will likely be forgiving yourself for why you waited so long. But you will also know that you are human and you can only do the best you can and that the best gift you can give to your kids.

as for SamwizeGamgee Your deep in the FOG. Know that the kids see right though it all and what will you tell them when they grow up, meet a disordered spouse and think its normal b/c its the same as mom and dad. then you come running and tell them not to repeat your mistakes. Would you believe it?

The best thing you can do for kids is to let go of fantasies. the dream of the perfect marriage with a disordered spouse is not going to happen and show the kids the although life can throw you many curve balls, its totally up to you to hit them out of the park. Striking out or being the Co-dependent and walking is simply NOT an option.

Stop feeling bad for yourself. Make bold decisions and don't second guess yourself. Money, your friends, house and all the toys are all replaceable but your TIME never is.

[misterblister]

Thank you all for supporting me and offering wisdom from your experience. It's a lifeline right now.

@insideout77 - Your story gives me hope. We align closely in years married and children count and age. I hope you can follow this thread and offer your insights and opinions.

A recent episode with her reminded me that her core dysfunction--that fragile, bitter, unforgiving, score-keeping, vengeful inner child--remains ever present. It sabotages any and all attempts at true emotional vulnerability, intimacy, and maturity. It attacks, blames, distorts, evades, justifies, and projects its faults.

As I see it I have two options:

1) Stay in the marriage. If I stay, I think I can handle:

- Accepting I will never have a soul mate whom I can love or be loved by deeply, freely, and happily even though I feel entirely capable of such love.
- Accepting that my children will never witness deep and meaningful love between their parents, but will at least get to see practical expressions (dates, gifts, favors) and occasionally spurts of closeness and fun (and the inevitable splits they won't understand).
- Accepting that I will have to be armed with DGAF and work hard on my self-esteem and self-care, and learn to avoid many "normal" relational interactions with my wife.
- Accepting that much personal happiness (or potential for happiness) will be deferred in order to be there in the house for my children. I will be busy keeping my powder dry and being intentional, hoping they at least look back as adults and see I tried.

If I stay, I may not be able to handle:

- The sense of faking it. My children will know if I'm not happy.
- Pretending to love someone I don't respect. Maybe I can change my love lenses to just focus on her good qualities and forgive all else, but that's going to take work. I do love her, or try anyway. But she will never stop reminding how she isn't feeling perfectly loved, and that might be too much for me while I'm increasingly sacrificing.
- Trudging on with self-sacrifice and using up my last good years while she continues to resent me and refuses to even work or take care of herself physically.
- The gnawing sense of how much happier I'd have been if I'd left and curated my own happiness.

2) End the marriage as strategically and as gently as possible. This one is all about things I would not be able to handle:

- My wife alienates my children from me and robs them of their childhood by requiring even more emotional support from them. I become the bad guy. I don't think I'm strong enough to handle that reality knowing if I had stayed it would not have happened.
- My kids end up living with some guy who at best will rinse and repeat our marriage, and at worst introduce negative influence I cannot control. This is likely because she hasn't worked a FT job in years and she claims even PT is taking too much of her parenting time.
- Knowing I'm missing out on the daily dainties of fatherhood. 50/50 custody would take at least half of these away. To not be there when they stub a toe or need a boost of courage or just some dad silliness is tough, especially imagining my wife is painting me the bad guy the entire time. I picture myself spending my 50% of custody undoing damage from her 50%.

Please let me know your opinions. I am at a crossroads here and in life circumstances which could change significantly depending on which options I choose.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. B, There is no map.  We can't tell you what is the best option for you.  I suggest you listen to your gut feelings.  Get centered and work outwards.  What assumptions are you making that might be limiting your options?  Despite what you may have been told, there's no particular requirement that one's marriage has to follow a certain pattern.  It's up to you to find a format that works best for you.  Others don't really know what it's like on the inside of a BPD marriage.  I do, and many others here do as well, so keep us posted.

LJ

[insideout77]

misterblister:

Your very detailed post sounds to me like your doing alot of thinking and trying to plan things out. looking at the many options and not sure which road to take.

I am going to share a thought about the last point you make b/c the ones that deal with you staying in the marriage can be debated for hours and ultimately  only you know your marriage.

I believe that when you live with a BPD many of their bad traits actually start to rub off on you after many years. The experts call it Flee's. I am sure you would agree that your BPD wife is always trying control you. Yet if you look closely at yourself you will realize that in our defense of that control we counter with control of our own.

One of the biggest challenges I had in leaving the marriage was trying to control the outcome and it took a while for me to hold tight and finally realize that I con't control anything. I can barely control my own life never mind anyone else's. To me that is a huge relief. Because while at the beginning of the divorce I would stress about every scenario that may or may not happen.

I have 90% let go of that and I am free b/c of it.  I don't stress anymore about what will or won't be b/c I don't control it and I have little say over what will or won't happen. What the ExW will or won't do. What the Courts will or won't rule. I can make a strong case and I did and I ultimately got everything I wanted. But it wasn't my brilliant control that made it happen. It was actually letting go of the control and focusing on the thing that I can control  "ME" and focusing on making me a better person.

Bottom line: you have absolutely zero clue how the divorce will play out and you don't control her reaction and nor are you responsible for it. A person is only responsible for their action. Her re-action no matter how great the excuse is and how much she will try to lay the guilt on, is not on you!

Once you free yourself of this guilt, obligation and  fear, the sky will be the limit for you in your life, b/c im willing to bet there are few challenges you can ever come across in life that are greater than the one you face today!

hugs - IO

[misterblister]

misterblister:I believe that when you live with a BPD many of their bad traits actually start to rub off on you after many years. The experts call it Flee's. I am sure you would agree that your BPD wife is always trying control you. Yet if you look closely at yourself you will realize that in our defense of that control we counter with control of our own.

Bottom line: you have absolutely zero clue how the divorce will play out and you don't control her reaction and nor are you responsible for it. A person is only responsible for their action. Her re-action no matter how great the excuse is and how much she will try to lay the guilt on, is not on you!

Thank you. A great reminder of some lessons I began learning in the last few years. For some reason I emerged into adulthood thinking I could fix people and situations. Gradually I discovered I was very bad at it, then gradually I realized I couldn't do it at all. At first I felt like a failure and then I realized I was just on a fool's errand. Even with people I loved dearly, it did not work. It dawned on me that I was the only person I had any control over. Even my kids, on the surface at least, don't appear to be under my sway in the sense I imagined.

The hard part for me is no matter how hard I try to control my words or actions, with my wife it strikes her as negative, either striking a new blow or opening an old wound. It always contradicts my inner intent. This is the crazy-making recipe that sabotages self-esteem and self-trust.

Of course I can keep learning to improve my tone or word choice, but in a healthy relationship these misunderstandings and speed bumps are resolved through forgiveness and trust and other loving qualities. In the BPD relationship that doesn't seem to happen. Instead it feels like all I can do is rebuild sand castles too close to the tide while shouting "I'm sorry" until I'm hoarse.

Control and letting go are definitely challenges for me. I suspect those are profound personality deficits that, once excavated, may elevate my happiness and freedom to new heights.

[misterblister]

Well that was quick. A couple of conversations later, my wife is now asking for a separation.

I am embarrassed that only a couple of days ago I was assuming I had control over this relationship. No doubt more than one of you told me the truth, but old habits die hard.

Regardless, things are different this time and here are some observations:

1. I realized that for most of this marriage, I have been tip-toeing and ducking and forgiving and basically defusing this inevitable situation. In other words, had I behaved and responded appropriately and with boundaries, she would have found the relationship intolerable and I would have found her behavior intolerable. Her behavior right now is completely familiar to me, but I previously rode out the storms and made awkward peace which allowed her to pull back.

2. I realized I am stronger now than before. I don't know why but I think it's a combination of growth through some tough challenges over the last few years, combined with a rising sense that time is short and life is too precious to waste.

3. I have managed to keep my cool. Aside from hanging up on her when she called an unkind name, I've not knowingly done or said anything out of spite or revenge. Sometimes I'll test the waters and try to engage in a normal dialog but so far she's all claws and teeth, so I mostly steer clear.

4. insideaout77's advice about letting go and control are empowering me to be able to accept this reality. It's part of what's making me strong. The sense I have is that so long as I stay strong and stable, not much else is within my control but things will work out OK.

5. My wife is doing that surreal thing where she suddenly is like Mary Poppins to everyone else, as if nothing is wrong, but is privately vicious and calculating hurt on me. I realize this is her coping method but I also realize it's not healthy. She doesn't see that others, including the children, can often see through it.

6. Interacting with her during emotional times has convinced me there is nothing I could say or do to make her like me, much less love me. Nor can I ever defend myself or even get apologies accepted. While I should know this after ~14 years, keep in mind I've mostly avoided these confrontations.

7. She is teaming up with her family and filling their ears. They're generally good people and more mature than her, but she remains perfect in their eyes, and thus the victim. This part is especially hard for me. Experience has shown me blood is always thicker than water, but I do have a little hope that if I keep my cool and play fair, they may provide some counterweight that makes this smoother.

8. Practically speaking, her bite may be as bad as her bark this time. I feel I need to plan for her to up and leave, empty bank accounts, etc. I suspect this because this time I think her family is encouraging her to stand up to me.

Once again please share any advice you may find useful to my present situation.

[SamwizeGamgee]

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?
1. I am discovering that I'm mad at myself for letting me get to where I am now.  I look back and say that no self-respecting man would have put up with what I gave into, and worked around - even from the start.  It was bad, I knew it on some level, but I just stayed in it. And look where I am now.  Deeper.  So, I get your first point.
2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?
... .
5. Mary Poppins.  You married her too? On the outside, she's everything. Mrs Hyde lives inside.

I am sorry you're in this situation.  I think I have been tricking myself into believing that I have the upper hand and the initiative - and the deciding vote - on my marriage or divorce, but, once angered, she might surprise me with a new wave of wrath and things could get bad much faster that I can ever imagine. 
I wish you well.  It's times like these when it can come down to you and your gut, and that's the home team roster. 
good luck!

[insideout77]

I am embarrassed that only a couple of days ago I was assuming I had control over this relationship. No doubt more than one of you told me the truth, but old habits die hard.

Once again please share any advice you may find useful to my present situation.

There is no need to be, you are doing amazing and be proud of how far you have come. Divorce is harder than anything you have ever faced, but it actually ends, the pain ends and the light at the end of the tunnel is shining bright (as opposed to the dark hole your in now).

If your spouse is High Functioning as you said above, I'm going to throw in some personal experience pointers.

1. No one is going to believe you no matter what you say, so protect your integrity and clamp your lips. Her family is going to be there for her and that's just life. No one can ever understand what your life was and no amount of explaining to people will make a difference. You will likely lose all mutual friends. but just know, that all friends that run with her drama are taking the express train out of your life. That is good for you and you will make new and healthy friends that will accept you however you are and won't care that you are divorced from a seemingly perfect woman.

2. In my personal opinion and that which I have discovered through research, your Wife is not calculating in the sense that she is trying to figure out how to screw you. She is simply focused on herself as she always has been. Its not about you and never has been. It may help you not take everything so personally especially when the lies about you start circulating even more. She is simply a toddler who is having a temper tantrum. Tune it out. Even if there are half truths. you do not need to defend yourself to anyone and nor does anyone care to hear. People just want gossip.

3. Kids:  I have found my relationship with the kids improved dramatically after the divorce and with 50/50 I am spending alot of time with them. I can be their father with no influence from her and its refreshing and invigorating. Keep the kids out of it. Hold firm and don't let her bait you into discussing anything with the kids. remember every fight and conversation needs two people and if your not willing to engage, it sucks the air out every issue very quickly. Like teaching your kids, hold firm to your boundaries, b/c you know when you give into your kids even once, your essentially starting all over again from scratch.

4. Last but really first. RUN to your lawyer or interview one if you don't have one and get your right in order. There is plenty of advice out there on finding one if you need it.  But do not give in on anything , including moving, separating etc, until your lawyer agrees that its right for you and protects your rights. Do not believe anything she says as she will lie, cheat and deceive to get her way. To her this is an act of desperation, b/c she is preserving her perfect persona for all to to see. She doesn't even want the kids, she Just needs them so she can look like the perfect mother. You will not recognize her in a short time.  Do not tell her you are speaking to one and do this on your own. start looking out for you and the kids only.

All the above may or may not help. But either way, just think of the worse case scenario than recognize that even it does happen its totally out of your control even in the unlikely even that it does happen. So let go right now and start the rebuild.  The great thing about hitting what feels to be rock bottom is that it only goes up from there!

IO

[insideout77]

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?

2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?

I would like to humbly add a thought:

Just trust because you can't possibly know -

The life that you discover once you come out of the FOG is infinitely greater than you can even possibly fathom when you are in the FOG.  In my opinion that is what is also holding most of us tied in these crazy challenges. If we truly knew how amazing it could be, the decision would be so much easier. We you are trapped in chaos for 20 years, you can't possibly fathom what true freedom minus all the stress even feels like. Because trust me, if you did - you would run oh so fast.

[Grey Kitty]

Well that was quick. A couple of conversations later, my wife is now asking for a separation.

FIRST: Take that seriously, and believe that you may be in for a legal battle. Prepare yourself for it. I'd suggest two things:

1. Post on the legal board here with your legal situation, especially what you want in the way of custody if you do separate or divorce. You'll get a lot of good, practical advice there from senior folks who've been through it.

2. Talk to / interview a lawyer. Possibly more than one.  Ask your lawyer about their experience with "high conflict divorce cases". That is the industry term for what happens when a pwBPD uses lawyers and the legal process against you in a dysregulated rage.

SECOND: Has she made threats like this before? Has she acted on them? Some pwBPD are very big on threats but never or seldom follow through. I don't know your wife.

[misterblister]

@insideout77 - From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Your two recent replies are invaluable to me. I am going to keep reading them so I can remember. Some of what you said already rings very true, and having one's instincts confirmed by somebody who's been there is very comforting and encouraging.

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?
1. I am discovering that I'm mad at myself for letting me get to where I am now.  I look back and say that no self-respecting man would have put up with what I gave into, and worked around - even from the start.  It was bad, I knew it on some level, but I just stayed in it. And look where I am now.  Deeper.  So, I get your first point.

A nice hot cup of coffee with a splash of whiskey is just what I need in the trenches.

As for Why, www.gettinbetter.com/needlove.html hit the grand slam for me when I stumbled upon it a few years ago. It was like open heart surgery. May not apply to you, but many of her articles hit me with a piercing insight I find nowhere else.

I haven't earned my sage medal yet. I have been thinking about marriage as a many-layered cake that requires two chefs contributing the proper ingredients for it to avoid becoming a teetering inedible monstrosity. One chef's sugar can't fix another's toxic frosting.

All I know for sure is that I willingly married a woman who appears constitutionally incapable of real trust, real forgiveness, and real emotional intimacy with me. Why I failed or refused to recognize this before or soon after the marriage is for me to unravel, and for me to own.

Fueled by commitment and duty and hope, I put myself into automatic and held on for dear life. When children arrived, I doubled-down, ignoring my instincts. My self-trust and self-confidence eroded, but I chalked that up to self-sacrifice for family stability. I had an ideal of marriage and of my children's happiness that made divorce the Great Satan. It was literally unthinkable to me.

I have to forgive myself. I had no idea that anything as profound as BPD existed, and I did love my wife and believed we would be soul mates.

2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?

I don't know you or your wife, but my wife is high-functioning. I have no doubt that her adult side is participating in this, realizing the futility and anguish is not worth enduring for these precious remaining years. I imagine some BPD spouses are more content being in the eye of the storm and will hang on until you die from it.

insideout77 has far more wisdom than me at this stage so I would listen to him.

[SamwizeGamgee]

These last two pages of posts have drilled right into my soul.  I could have written half of it because I lived it, but my writing would not be coherent.  I thank you all.

[insideout77]

@insideout77 - From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Your two recent replies are invaluable to me. I am going to keep reading them so I can remember. Some of what you said already rings very true, and having one's instincts confirmed by somebody who's been there is very comforting and encouraging.

All I know for sure is that I willingly married a woman who appears constitutionally incapable of real trust, real forgiveness, and real emotional intimacy with me. Why I failed or refused to recognize this before or soon after the marriage is for me to unravel, and for me to own.

Your welcome. Your on to something. Keep it going.

There will be very down and dark days, yet there is something I wished knew earlier which I will share.

The light at the end of the tunnel does not mean that life will become perfect and all your challenges will go away (fantasy only) rather what will happen is, unlike now - you will know that you have the free choice to make the right decisions, clarity of mind to overcome them and a healthy respect of yourself to not let it all get to you as it has in your marriage. The soontobeEX will always be around as long as your kids are under 18, but you will come to just giggle at her crazy vs letting it effect you.

Don't worry or focus too much on why you got into this in the first place. There will be a time for that. Once the FOG starts clearing (as little as 2 months after no-contact) you will start having a clear head looking back. But first you need to focus on yourself and getting safely away from her.

You can read it everyone on these boards and I can't stress it enough:  Exercise consistently, make ME time for you only, daily, weekly etc. start training yourself that what you want and what you care for always comes first.

I agree with you on Gettinbetter dot com, It what was i discovered at first (6 years ago) and was very helpful. Some people find her insensitive, but she minces no words and says it as it is. One things that sticks out in my memory was an article in which she says "Love is an ever-expanding sense of trust in another, along with admiration and respect for their character, attributes and qualities." something you likely never had with your wife. recognize that and there is little holding back

You may want to check out Shrink4men dot com which also some very clarifying articles a even some dry humor.

[insideout77]

These last two pages of posts have drilled right into my soul.  I could have written half of it because I lived it, but my writing would not be coherent.  I thank you all.

You have the directions and the desire now comes the hard part, put the car in drive and connect the engine(brain) to the wheels(action).

[Lucky Jim]

Fueled by commitment and duty and hope, I put myself into automatic and held on for dear life. When children arrived, I doubled-down, ignoring my instincts. My self-trust and self-confidence eroded, but I chalked that up to self-sacrifice for family stability. I had an ideal of marriage and of my children's happiness that made divorce the Great Satan. It was literally unthinkable to me.

Hey Mr. B, I did the same thing and followed the same compass points, until the wheels came off and I could go no further.  It all came unglued.  I was just pretending that things were OK.  :)eep down, I was miserable and couldn't admit to myself that I was in an abusive marriage.

I have to forgive myself. I had no idea that anything as profound as BPD existed, and I did love my wife and believed we would be soul mates.

Who knew?  I had never heard of BPD until 9 years into my marriage.  Yes, you do need to forgive yourself.  I thought my Ex and I were soul mates, too, until BPD proved too much for me.  For a while, I operated under the premise that I could break the BPD Code, which proved unrealistic.

LJ

[misterblister]

SECOND: Has she made threats like this before? Has she acted on them? Some pwBPD are very big on threats but never or seldom follow through. I don't know your wife.

She's done this about four times before (and talked about it more) but historically I patched things up in ways that I am sure in hindsight were unhealthy. Last time she did it, it was more preemptive due to me being depressed and mad at her for some crazy and incredibly hurtful behavior. She was clearly assuming I was leaving, and she took up battle stations.

This time her fuse was much shorter and I think the wildcard is her family, who is closer to her now, and who may be coaching her. I don't think they want to see her so unhappy. This could help or hurt things.

I wish we could part amicably and both recognize that despite much good and shared life together, the love part ain't workin' but pointing fingers won't help. That's where I am at. Heck, after me doing this for so long, if she simply treated me as nicely as she does the average stranger, I could probably continue living with her. I don't understand why it's so painful simply to be around her.

Custody and my children's mental health is my main concern. We have few assets left between us. I gave up hope long ago of ever saving money. Money conversations are impossible with her.

[Grey Kitty]

She's done this about four times before (and talked about it more) but historically I patched things up in ways that I am sure in hindsight were unhealthy. Last time she did it, it was more preemptive due to me being depressed and mad at her for some crazy and incredibly hurtful behavior. She was clearly assuming I was leaving, and she took up battle stations.

OK, given your history, I'd suggest you take a two-pronged approach:

1. Without tipping her off, make a legal plan for separation, divorce, and a custody battle. Consult lawyers, post on the family law board here, make sure you have your own bank accounts without her name on them so you are ready to transfer half the joint assets, and shut down joint credit lines in a hurry if you need to... .but don't pull the trigger without good advice and a good plan... .at least not until she does something similar and you need to protect your own interests.

2. I don't recommend starting a conversation with her about separation, but she may well bring the subject up again. I would be prepared to say something along these lines to her, if you are willing to work on the marriage longer with her:

I don't want to separate from you, but I cannot stop you from leaving. I love you and I'll miss you terribly, but I recognize that it is your choice.

(You can both love her and believe that she's tearing you apart at the same time, so that doesn't have to be untrue in any way... .and you know that sharing truths about how she's hurting you aren't going to have any good results in either your marriage or your divorce!)

[misterblister]

My wife spent a few days sleeping in another room after the separation threat. She cold shouldered me for a while but never spoke about it again and never apologized. She now seems back to "semi-normal" leaving me as confused as ever.

I don't understand why my love is not enough for her to open her heart and eyes to her behavior, recognize it as harmful and abnormal, and seek help? I've given so much of my life for her. My vows still mean something, but I cannot love a partner who will not trust me or forgive me, or who appears to experience an entirely different reality and assumes the worst about me. Even if she cannot trust me, why won't she do it for the children's sake?

My children want to see me take Mom out on more dates and show more affection. I feel almost physically incapable of this under these circumstances. I cannot fake it, nor can I say things like, "Even though you insulted me, rejected my apology, and never apologized yourself, I can't help but do everything I can to make you feel loved and cherished."

Is this because I'm a flawed person/spouse? Thing is, if I could manage that, I'd feel that much more humiliated and guilty of normalizing her behavior for my children.

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

Despite all my confusion, something is changing in me. It's like my toes are touching the cold deep end of the pool for the first time. I don't quite trust it, but at the same time I seem to be able to tread water there. I look about and see shimmers of hope, and once in a great while I taste a splash of true happiness of a sort I've not felt since my wedding day.

I suspect I'm slowly growing stronger and wiser, and learning to let go.

[BeagleGirl]

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

Misterblister,

If you find that phrase, LICENSE IT!  You will be a millionaire. 

All kidding aside, I have asked myself this question over and over.  I started asking it LONG before I had even heard of BPD.  I think I've been asking it for about 24 years in some form.  The answer, as far as I can tell, is "There is a chance that they could change, but you have NO power to effect this".  This is the pesky free will that is imbued in each of us and those of us who believe in God believe that even He has no ability to MAKE us do anything.  So if God can't do it, good luck.

So next question is WHY?  Why would someone choose a path of destruction when offered paradise?  As Dr. Phil and my therapist (and probably plenty of other people) say "There must be some payoff in it for them".  About all we can do is remove any payoff that we are personally giving them for the destructive behavior.  The rest is up to them.  We can woo them, but they have to choose. 

Since my faith is a key part of how I see the world and choose to interact with my BPDh, I have been studying (with help from my pastor and Christian therapist) the relationship that I am supposed to model -
 the relationship God has with us.  The thing that I've been trying to learn is that the God I believe in, a God of infinite love, does not chase the ones He loves.  He does not change who He is or His standards to make it easier for them to be in relationship with Him.  He is who He is and offers paradise to those who choose to move towards Him and be in relationship with Him.  I don't know if that is helpful to you, but it is what I hold onto when I feel like I need to DO something to fix the relationship.  I remind myself that if God can't force me (or anyone else) stop doing destructive things and love Him, then why waste my time trying to do something that God can't.

[Grey Kitty]

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

That 'quest' is something that keeps you stuck in this cycle with her. As long as you are chasing after this, you are working hard to keep BOTH of you stuck in this.

You are correct--she doesn't feel safe. You are correct--what she does when she doesn't feel safe sabotages your marriage and closeness between the two of you.

And she does tell you that you are doing it wrong, that it is your fault, and she probably believes it. She's not correct about that part, and it is time for you to stop believing it. (Without trying to convince her, 'tho. That would just be JADEing all over the place... .)

Instead, there is an emotional black hole of need inside her... .and it will suck up and absorb anything you pour into it, without changing, at most a brief pause as what you throw in is consumed. Nothing will change until/unless she works on this from the inside.

Unfortunately, if you continue trying to fill that void (the way you have been, at least), she won't even start to look for ways to deal with the real problem... .or even look for better coping mechanisms than using you as an emotional punching bag.

It is really hard, but the best thing you can do is to remove yourself from that position when she attacks you like this. In your case, since there is already talk about/threats of separation, making a change like this will probably result in more of them, and could result in her acting on them.

[Lucky Jim]

I look about and see shimmers of hope, and once in a great while I taste a splash of true happiness of a sort I've not felt since my wedding day.

Hey Mister B, Those "shimmers of hope" sound encouraging, yet don't lose sight of the BPD cycle.  A dark cloud can appear out of a clear blue sky.  Periods of relative tranquility tend to be followed by turmoil and drama, so be prepared to use your Tools.  Forewarned is forearmed! 

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

About those glimmers or hope, or those memories of the good old days... .
If you read about the abuse cycle, there are periods of good (otherwise why would a victim stay?).  During that time, there might be remorse and apologies for the past episode, or it might be a more sinister pathological intent to lure the victim back.  However I don't think that really applies to BPD in every case.  I would guess that pwBPD don't really have remorse for their past behavior, nor do they calculate that it's time to be nice to get you back.  I believe that they just don't think beyond the moment and the occupying feelings they have.  They may regret getting mad or bad, but I really don't think it's something they feel responsible enough to apologize for.

That said, the abuse cycle works fine for them.  They are bad, doesn't matter. They are good and we stay. 

One thing I do, and this has cooled off my relationship immensely (for better and worse), is to keep in mind the whole person.  When I see my wife on a bad day, I try to balance it with looking for the good, when I see her on a good day, I respectfully remember that all is not as it seems, and remember the rages and black abyss of her heart.   Might not be the most positive marriage advice, which should probably say something like always look on the bright side.  But, keeping in mind the dangers of the person I married, keeps me on safer and saner ground. 

[insideout77]

I don't understand why my love is not enough for her to open her heart and eyes to her behavior, recognize it as harmful and abnormal, and seek help? I've given so much of my life for her. My vows still mean something, but I cannot love a partner who will not trust me or forgive me, or who appears to experience an entirely different reality and assumes the worst about me. Even if she cannot trust me, why won't she do it for the children's sake?

 Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

, and learning to let go.

My Friend,

 read your post. your going in Circles...  

 A BPD doesn't do anything for the kids sake ever. you have given so much of your life for her...  when are you going to cut your losses? when are you going to put half the investment in you that you put in her?  when will you step up for your kids. they need you and as hard as this is a living hell, the kids don't know different and will never have a chance if you don't jump into the deep end to and protect them. its their only chance.

I honestly don't know what to say,  been there and done that and I know that when your in the FOG you can fathom what its like outside the FOG...  its like trying to describe Chocolate to someone who hasn't ever tasted it.    

just know while you wait for the right moment to finally get rolling, that motivation does not come first, rather Motivation comes after you take action. People that wait for motivation in life never get it. Courage is a muscle and by working through your fear and anxiety, you can build it over time!

hugs

  

[insideout77]

Misterblister,



So next question is WHY?  Why would someone choose a path of destruction when offered paradise? 

What I believe your missing here is, chaos IS paradise for a BPD. Thats what they live for and thrive on. Its all the they know.  They think they have it and your the one missing out.

On a God note:  I think many Clergy totally do not understand the issue's of BPD etc and preach love and acceptance etc... .I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that if a person was being physically abused.  Its a shame as often they are in way over their head.

 I'm not saying you suggested that, but as a Rabbi I'm semi qualified to comment :-)

[misterblister]

Thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement. Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile). The pattern lately seems to be:

1. She splits or says something very hurtful to me.
2. I limp away but try to apologize and mend.
3. She refuses to mend or apologize.
4. I withdraw and tiptoe, which she perceives as being mean or neglecting her.
5. She splits again.

The difference now is my tolerance for #1 and #3 is fading. Like literally the tank is almost empty.

I will try to reply to all since my last post.

@BeagleGirl: I appreciate you sharing your story. You seem to have found something I could not. My wife wants us to be a happy church-going family. Over the years I could no longer stand pretending to be that, tagging behind to church on mornings she wouldn't even talk to me or forgive me, so we can all sit down and hear a sermon on forgiveness. It sickened me to think my children were learning that was normal. We also tried pastoral counseling early on and my experience was the burden was entirely on me to make my wife happy and my household peaceful. If she wasn't, it was my spiritual failing. As @insideout77 pointed out, my experience is that most pastors are clueless about profound disorders like BPD. Since then my faith river seems to have dried to a trickle, and I'm sure this is part of why she's feeling less secure with me than ever.

@GreyKitty: Your description of the "emotional black hole" really helped me gain my distance and look at this from the outside. It's just so unnatural feeling to look at my partner of so many years and see this "thing" that they do not, and realize I can't make her see it nor can I fix it.

@Lucky Jim & @SamwizeGamgee: I was not clear when I wrote about shimmers and happiness. What I was really talking about was realizing I could survive a separation/divorce and maybe--just maybe--thrive in life again before old age takes me down. I never imagined it being survivable (much less thriveable!) before.

@SamwizeGamgee: I do try to keep the whole person in mind. I wish I could tolerate her refusal to apologize or forgive. I am guessing if I could stomach it, she would be happier and my kids would be happier. Maybe this is me failing to apply true forgiveness, but I feel I'll just lower myself closer to the ground and make it easier for her to kick me the next time she splits.

@insideout77: I cannot stomach that my wife doesn't do things for the kid's sake. I know she loves them. She is "high functioning" but I can say when she's splitting, all bets are off and she can hurt them and be seemingly unaware of the effects of her behavior.

You comment about "chaos IS paradise" does ring somewhat true for me. She seems happiest when she's just split and I'm bent over in pain and she is somehow "safe" at that point. Not sure what the internals of that are, but it's been a consistent pattern. What really seems to upset her is genuine closeness and normalcy approaching. One thing that increasingly bothers me now that I think about it is that I don't recall ever seeing any genuine remorse from her for hurting me. It's hard to reconcile that with someone you believe is an overall good person. I have to believe she genuinely despises me at some primal level.

@all: Had my wife left the house 10 years ago I would have had a mental breakdown. Recently I am much stronger but in some Zen-like way. Realizing I can only really control myself has freed me. It's very difficult maintaining that levelheadedness when I know I am being misunderstood, falsely accused and misjudged by her and her family, but it's also freeing. It seems like a path I can walk.

Your comments on this board have been vital to this growth. I don't seem to learn much from reading books but when I get answers in the context of my own situation, it can be profoundly helpful.

I don't know what is coming but I'm going to try my best to keep my powder dry, avoid doing things I'll regret, and be a good role model for my children.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Quick aside about faith and organized religion: @MB: I think I get it when you say you feel sick going to church and trying to be "normal" for the kids and others to see.  

I got and stayed married, most of all, out of a sense of religious dogma. I actually broke off what was, in hindsight, my best relationship ever with a girl since we were of different faiths.  And, it's not that I felt the need to be right, rather, I wanted to respect her need to fully follow her faith, and be herself.  I really loved her, and didn't want her to have to change or feel she should.  How bizarre.  So, I soon found a girl of my faith, and I blindly went on "Faith" - after getting some really damaging advice that two people equally dedicated to God can make a happy marriage. I used religion-in-common as a rubber stamp over the red flags.  I stayed, and stayed, and still stay, in spite of all the pain, and quiet internal sadness.  I have since gotten to the point that I consider myself spiritual - and I understand, and truly believe, parts of my religion, but, I no longer feel like a "company man" when it comes to religion. I attend and teach at church, and importantly, I feel that I understand compassion, suffering, love, and God, a whole lot more because of my marriage.  This hard marriage - maybe that was it's purpose after all.  But, I can't back up all the beliefs anymore.  I cannot look someone in the eyes and say marriage is good, or ordained of God anymore.  
I've become a self-appointed Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist and I'm making out better this way.  
Misterblister, I get it. My wife still sees me as the problem. Sorry you have to go through this.  And if I dare say, I think we are both a whole lot stronger than we were many years ago.  

End of last year I went to counsel with my clergy.  At this point I had found my peace with what to tell God.  I was looking for more than anything to advise my clergyman of my situation rather than ask for guidance.  I expected the usual boiler plate responses of "pray together, let God heal you, ask for forgiveness," etc.  But to my surprise he said that my situation sounded serious, and God does not want us to be hurt or so unhappy.  He also astutely recognized that this was not his field of expertise.  I respected that.  So, there are clergy out there who understand that other people got PhDs in psychology for a reason

[insideout77]

[javascript:void(0);quote author=misterblister link=topic=304722.msg12876373#msg12876373 date=1497146347]
Thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement. Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile).

[/quote]

OH MY ...    if you have your LAWYER...   now is your chance , FILE NOW, assuming kids are home and she moved and try to KEEP HER OUT...   the turkey is on the table...   much easier if she left the home already!

@religion...    HAHA can relate...  my Ex is/was a saint, ofcourse it all fell on me to fix and mend my ways.

@hates you ...  she doesn't hate you at all... She simply doesn't think about you . She is singularly focused on her and her perfect image to the exclusion of everyone around her, kids and you included.   As I saw elsewhere a great quote "she lives in a Narco-dome, This is like a bio-dome into which reality cannot permeate"

You may not know how people will respond and its not your problem , You can know whats Coming, take charge of your destiny by putting one foot always in front of the other.  To use a running analogy, if you start the marathon and think about miles 23-26 you will be exhausted in the first hour and won't be able to move forward...  goal is to focus on the present , and only the step your actually doing and the general direction you are going, what you will actually find around each corner, you will discover when you get there.  

To some extent you likely don't trust yourself to make big decisions. The little secret is, the only way you ever will is when you start making them and realize that you can. Courage is like a muscle. You must use it and exercise it to make it strong. Get out and start strong!

[insideout77]

Quick aside about faith and organized religion: @MB: I think I get it when you say you feel sick going to church and trying to be "normal" for the kids and others to see.  

I got and stayed married, most of all, out of a sense of religious dogma. I actually broke off what was, in hindsight, my best relationship ever with a girl since we were of different faiths.  And, it's not that I felt the need to be right, rather, I wanted to respect her need to fully follow her faith, and be herself.  I really loved her, and didn't want her to have to change or feel she should.  How bizarre.  So, I soon found a girl of my faith, and I blindly went on "Faith" - after getting some really damaging advice that two people equally dedicated to God can make a happy marriage. I used religion-in-common as a rubber stamp over the red flags.  I stayed, and stayed, and still stay, in spite of all the pain, and quiet internal sadness.  I have since gotten to the point that I consider myself spiritual - and I understand, and truly believe, parts of my religion, but, I no longer feel like a "company man" when it comes to religion. I attend and teach at church, and importantly, I feel that I understand compassion, suffering, love, and God, a whole lot more because of my marriage.  This hard marriage - maybe that was it's purpose after all.  But, I can't back up all the beliefs anymore.  I cannot look someone in the eyes and say marriage is good, or ordained of God anymore.  
I've become a self-appointed Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist and I'm making out better this way.  
Misterblister, I get it. My wife still sees me as the problem. Sorry you have to go through this.  And if I dare say, I think we are both a whole lot stronger than we were many years ago.  

Maybe Judaism is just different b/c there is divorce and its clearly built into the system. We are human and and if anyone understands the Crappy marriage we have had its God. If he doesn't get it and cut us some slack then what is his purpose in the first place.

Essentially saying: If god is like a father/mother, then he loves us like a father/mother and the love can't change no matter what we do. If we make bad choices or we get stuck in a quagmire like many of us have, his love doesn't change and if anything he gives us the biggest pass of all.  

Not to turn this into philosophical discussion but im sure there are many parallels in all religions to some extent.  In Jewish legal literature there is a discussion about what to do if someone is face with a life & death decision and it entails violating the Sabbath. The Legal conclusion says: That since saving your life & violating this Sabbath means that you will be able to keep MANY more Sabbath's in the future,  it is clearly a worthwhile investment. :-)    My point here is: Don't worry so much about God and your spiritual connection right now, let God worry about it. You focus on YOU and your kids and get all of you to a healthy and secure space, there is no question in my mind that God will be smiling & watching  you the whole way as you come to visit as a happier and healthy person!

[SamwizeGamgee]

@insideout77 - I married a saint too.  Maybe I shouldn't have aimed so high :/

I like the running analogy.  Running is my thing.  I know also that when you're done, you're done.  No energy drinks or pep talks can put back the energy and get you back running, when you have hit a certain point of exhaustion.  I think that once we reach that point, we may not know it right away, but, it becomes clear.  We can't take one more step. It's time to stop, rest, recover, and run again another day.  In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

[insideout77]

@insideout77 - I married a saint too.  Maybe I shouldn't have aimed so high :/

I like the running analogy.  Running is my thing.  I know also that when you're done, you're done.  No energy drinks or pep talks can put back the energy and get you back running, when you have hit a certain point of exhaustion.  I think that once we reach that point, we may not know it right away, but, it becomes clear.  We can't take one more step. It's time to stop, rest, recover, and run again another day.  In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

thats awesome ! I Started running 6 years ago and it saved my life and got me where I am today.  Now im dreaming of a BQ in Oct.

I strongly disagree with you on your DNF...   all of us on this board are cheering for you at mile 23, and we on this thread are jumping on board the course to pace you through the last 3 hard miles. But only you can actually run the miles, if we carry you , then you will be stuck with the DNF.   The finish line is in sight and there is LOADS of great food in the hospitality tent! lets roll!  The medal will be the smiles on your kids faces in 20 years all because you had the courage to save them from this madness

[SamwizeGamgee]

Insideout77 - I'll follow your tangent, and apologize for going off topic.  Ironically, the girl I spoke about, [and I'm speculating based on all the information I have, that I'd never have needed to consider divorcing] is Jewish.  Alas.  

There is a provision in Christianity that I read now as an accommodation for divorce, based not in the selfishness and sinful nature of the abuser, but, rather for the relief and rescue of the victim.  It's a doctrinal thing I missed for far too long.  I just was dogmatically against my own divorce.  Somehow, I completely accepted other's divorces and understood - I just couldn't see myself in the same compassionate way.  


I'll side with you on the viewpoint you share on divorce, and most of all with God loving us, and knowing perfectly how much we suffer.  I thank you, and value your point of view.  It's what I feel is right.  I'll include that in my Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist reflections.

Lol.  More apologies to BM for taking this tangent,  and for "running" with it.  I think I can look at this marriage-marathon, as a DNF.  Trying will kill me.  As for the greater "finish line" I can make it.  I might not see how, but I do hear the cheering.   

[insideout77]

Lol.  More apologies to BM for taking this tangent,  and for "running" with it.  I think I can look at this marriage-marathon, as a DNF.  Trying will kill me.  As for the greater "finish line" I can make it.  I might not see how, but I do hear the cheering.   

the issues your missing is that your marriage isn't the marathon, your LIFE is the marathon! Your marriage is just some Rocky really steep uphill climb. Let go of that past thinking... this is NOT your life, its just a part of your story. you have soo much possible joy and resulting happiness around the corner and you must run there to get it.

[Grey Kitty]

In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

This is my view, and I'm unaware of any religion which supports it, but as I see it, marriage doesn't have a finish line, and end point where you "win" or even get a formal score, like a race does...

That would be like saying that it doesn't matter what you do in your marriage, how you treat your partner... .but marriage is defined to be a "success" if it ends because at least one of you died, and a "failure" if you end the relationship in some way that doesn't involve death.

My parents have been married over 50 years. I cannot imagine their marriage ending any other way than death. And there are *SOME* aspects of how they treat each other that I would be truly horrified if I found myself putting up with them for months/years or especially decades! I'm not calling their marriage a failure because of that either... .I'm just saying that if I was living in it, I wouldn't accept it as good enough to call it a success either.

(I'm done with this digression; back to helping MB in more specific ways)

Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile).

That's not completely bad... .I'm assuming that you aren't being subjected to a constant firehose soaking of blame, anger, and bile over your phone while she's gone. (If you are, time to turn it off, block her, etc.) and (if your kids are there), you get to be a good father without an obstacle.

OTOH, I'm betting that her FOO is quite a piece of work, and most likely their influence isn't good for her mental health or encouraging her to make good choices... .

The really good part is that you let her go and be with her feelings/mood, instead of chasing after her. Is this new progress for you?

Not sure what the internals of that are, but it's been a consistent pattern. What really seems to upset her is genuine closeness and normalcy approaching.

The nature of BPD is to be driven crazy by both a fear of abandonment and a fear of engulfment. There *IS* no comfortable, safe place between the two--instead, it is like balancing on the edge of a razor... .and the result is that at one moment she's driven by the fear of abandonment... .and reacts badly, pulling you closer... .then with intimacy, the fear of engulfment takes over, and she reacts badly (again), driving you away or running away... .until the fear of abandonment takes over again... .

And the more YOU react to her push-pull, the worse the cycle will be. The more you stay in your center, leaving her to her own crazy feelings and reactions, the shorter and milder the cycle is.

One thing that increasingly bothers me now that I think about it is that I don't recall ever seeing any genuine remorse from her for hurting me. It's hard to reconcile that with someone you believe is an overall good person. I have to believe she genuinely despises me at some primal level.

My experience has been that the genuine hatred is directed inward, not at you. ('Tho the lashing out at you when she blames you for her own feelings and thinks you 'deserve' it is genuine, at least at the time it happens)

The lack of genuine remorse or a genuine apology is also typical of the disorder. And she really has limited capacity to do this. Perhaps NONE, unless she has some real moments of clarity, which some self-aware pwBPD do have. In order to feel remorse or apologize, she has to have empathy and actually understand the hurt you felt. Her own feelings are loudly screaming at her, and she's trying to run away from them, really hard... .and this just doesn't leave her any room to be able to understand that you have feelings of your own. Instead, she's projecting onto you and blaming you for having these awful feelings she doesn't want to acknowledge, and hurting you for it because you 'deserve' it for having those awful feelings.

For years, I got apologies which weren't didn't help. They were mostly "I'm sorry I'm such a horrible person." or "I'm sorry you feel 'X'." Never "I'm sorry I hurt you by doing 'Y'".


Understanding this does help you not take the bad behavior personally--since it really has very little to do with you. It can help you use better tools, and improve your marriage. And there is one silver lining in that--when you stop participating in her messed up dynamics the way you used to, they stop working for her as coping mechanisms the way they used to. That is very likely to drive her to find a new way of coping than what she was doing.

It is her choice, and she has two general paths: 1--Leave you and find somebody else who will ride the dysfunctional roller coaster with her the way you used to... .2--Pick some healthier coping mechanisms, ones that will let her heal a bit, and stay with you in a healthier (albeit still far from perfect!) marriage.

You don't have the ability to choose her path... .your choice is whether you stay in the current mess, accepting abuse, and make certain she won't ever have to chose... .or stand up to the abuse, disconnect from her insanity and let her make her own choice.

[misterblister]

Can anyone recommend resources here and elsewhere for coping during this phase? I do have Stop Walking on Eggshells.

This is the first time in my marriage where I feel strong enough to have boundaries and enforce them, but I am clumsy at it. Paradoxically (though not to people here), it's making my marriage worse, not better. But I feel better and stronger.

I know that I cannot continue the passive dysfunctional way, but I still don't want this marriage to end. I can forgive my wife and love her if she'll let me and if she'll forgive me. I think this is what pains my oldest child so much too, because she knows things aren't that bad so why can we just kiss and make up.

It feels just an inch away from me. I am ready to do it. But when I reach out, it's a chasm of confusion, pain and contradiction from her that tangles me up. It has been for ~14 years, and I almost accept deep down that it won't change.

I think what I am asking is he how can I be healthy during this? That means strong, vulnerable, honest, fair to myself, my wife, and my children.

There might come a time for No More Mr Nice Guy in order to protect my children and myself, but until then I want my children to see a strong and kind father, and a husband who has tried hard and taken risks.

Also, if you have any advice for marital counseling, please let me know. Past experiences taught me it is a platform to accuse me and paint herself as a victim. I get tangled up and deflated simply defending myself. There must be some way I can communicate my side without falling into that trap, that will hopefully help the counselor correct the steering wheel.

You've probably all told me things already that will help but I'm a slow learner. The fog is thick right now.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. B, Do you have your own T?  That helped me more than marital counseling, to be honest.  I pretended a lot in my marriage, in part because it felt like I was walking through a mine field (I find that more descriptive than walking on eggshells!).  Now I strive to be authentic, and suggest the same for you.  I also suggest learning to love and accept yourself, just the way you are.  I'm human, and so are you, and it's a good thing to accept that one is less than perfect.  If you love yourself, in my view, you won't put up with abuse, which is why I suggest learning to love yourself first and foremost.  Boundaries, in my view, flow from self-acceptance and self-love.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm so sorry that you are in this spot, misterblister.  The old joke goes that it takes just one psychologist to change a light bulb, but the light bulb has to want to change.  That was just a joke to me until a few years ago, when I realized how potent that idea is.  On that same note, we all want to change, or want something around us to change.  How to do that though, is very individual.  

While most BPD personality traits all have some things in common, and perhaps a few critical causes, each expression is individual.  Therefore, our own path of coping and recovering can be individual too.  You asked about reading.  Learning about BPD was one thing.  I read about BPD in books like "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and recently one important one was "Understanding the Borderline Mother."  

In addition to learning about BPD, which might help on a cerebral level, I found I just plain needed to heal and get better.  Books that are invaluable to me include: "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" by Engle; "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Evans; "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Fjelstad; "Emotional Blackmail" by forward.  These books were for me the individual help I needed to recognize abuse.  By being aware, I was able to direct my life better, and identify what went on.  A warning though, like the proverbial Red Pill in the Matrix movie, once you see the abuse and dysfuntion, and you see your wife as a hurt, fearful, angry, abuser, you can't really un-see it.

For my healing path, I doubled down on distance running, as well as getting back to some old hobbies that get me out and with other people.  That's healthy.  Books that have touched me and became a lifeline for me have been "The Gifts of Imperfection" by Brown, and "Radical Acceptance" by Brach. Actually, anything Buddhist helps me.  Ironically, my religion isn't a big help, since it advocates marriage and family so dogmatically and one-sided.

Just a side commercial for male depression awareness.  I think any guy living for very long with a BPD wife should be aware of it.  I found "I Don't Want to Talk About It" by Real, to be a truly inspiring book, and perspective.  Required reading in my opinion.

I also read a metric ton of books about kids and divorce, but that is a subject all on its own.  
I recently started MC - not for hope of saving the marriage - if that happens it would be a by-product.  Rather, I am trying to establish good working relationships for a divorce and co-parenting at worst and a better working marriage at best.

[Grey Kitty]

LJ's suggestion of individual T for you instead of couples T is an excellent one.

And if she resists you going to individual T... .you could point out that you know you need help to do the right things in your marriage, and that is exactly what you are trying to do.

Hard for her to argue with that 

But *IF* you do it, make it clear that your individual T for you, and is between you and the T, and won't be discussed with her. Refuse to go there with her. Nothing good is likely t come from "My therapist said... ." with her.

[Lucky Jim]

I echo GK: make it clear that individual T is for the benefit of your marriage, but that it has to be private between you and the T in order to work.  Don't give her any opening to participate in the process, is my suggestion.  LJ

[misterblister]

Fantastic advice, all! Taking it all and running with it. Affording a T will be tough. Have to make MC a priority for now, but I definitely need a T. Wish I had done it 10 years ago. Regrets... .

I'm sure you know how much your advice means to somebody in my situation. There must be countless souls without therapists out there who never got the "ah hah" spark that led them to search out resources like this. Sharing your hard-earned wisdom is priceless--even sanity-saving--to those who find it.

Who knows, if I come out the right end of the tunnel I may become a wise old soul myself.

[BeagleGirl]

"That would be like saying that it doesn't matter what you do in your marriage, how you treat your partner... .but marriage is defined to be a "success" if it ends because at least one of you died, and a "failure" if you end the relationship in some way that doesn't involve death."

Just a little tangent here to remind us all that the manner of death is also considered a criteria in "finishing" a marriage.  Usually don't get a marriage medal for homicide.   

I'll join the group recommending individual therapy.  My therapist started as or MC and practically from day 1 was saying "A healthy marriage is built around two whole and healthy people".  It became obvious {to me} that MC was not moving us toward that goal, so we started seeing T individually.  I feel like that's the best of both worlds, because she has seen the dynamics and is informed by meeting with each spouse individually.  We agreed up front that she could share anything said in private sessions with the other spouse if she felt it was beneficial. 

I think that staying in the marriage requires more intense focus on self care and individual growth than leaving the marriage would (at least in the short term), so don't let the FOG get in the way of doing what you need for yourself.

[Grey Kitty]

Also, if you have any advice for marital counseling, please let me know. Past experiences taught me it is a platform to accuse me and paint herself as a victim. I get tangled up and deflated simply defending myself.

My advice is to expect more of the same--and if you are "lucky" enough to get a MC who is good enough not to let her run away and blame everything on you, most likely she will refuse to go back because "the MC is ganging up with you against her."

In other words, MC is likely to be a waste of time and money.

Affording a T will be tough. Have to make MC a priority for now, but I definitely need a T.

If she wants to go to MC, go ahead and give it another shot.

If you aren't most of the way there, your money will be far better spent on individual T, either for you or for her... .and you can only decide to go for yourself.

[insideout77]

Fantastic advice, all! Taking it all and running with it. Affording a T will be tough. Have to make MC a priority for now, but I definitely need a T. Wish I had done it 10 years ago. Regrets... .

I'm sure you know how much your advice means to somebody in my situation. There must be countless souls without therapists out there who never got the "ah hah" spark that led them to search out resources like this. Sharing your hard-earned wisdom is priceless--even sanity-saving--to those who find it.

Who knows, if I come out the right end of the tunnel I may become a wise old soul myself.

Forget the MC, almost nothing to gain but torturing yourself. Get your own T and get the self esteem to care for yourself!

[wendydarling]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. Part 2 continuation of the thread can be found here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=311262.0