The Good Days are the Worst

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Together or apart I have to communicate with my wife to raise our child, so I may as well work on my communication skills now while together until I can figure out the best long term plan.

Making a "long term plan" for such a troubled marriage can be daunting. Consider working on a short term plan instead. Commit to yourself that you will stay for another month... .and that you will work hard at making the best of it during that time. (And reevaluate again in a month.)

I don't mean capitulating or agreeing, I mean using the tools here, enforcing boundaries when you need to, avoiding invalidating statements, validating when you can, etc.

And yes, you WILL need those skills no matter what for the next several years while you co-parent, even if you do decide to leave. In fact, there are a few senior members who post on the legal board after going through a HORRIBLE divorce/custody battle who said that they didn't find this site until after their marriage was done... .and wonder if they might have saved it had they found it earlier.

[Grey Kitty]

Together or apart I have to communicate with my wife to raise our child, so I may as well work on my communication skills now while together until I can figure out the best long term plan.

Making a "long term plan" for such a troubled marriage can be daunting. Consider working on a short term plan instead. Commit to yourself that you will stay for another month... .and that you will work hard at making the best of it during that time. (And reevaluate again in a month.)

I don't mean capitulating or agreeing, I mean using the tools here, enforcing boundaries when you need to, avoiding invalidating statements, validating when you can, etc.

And yes, you WILL need those skills no matter what for the next several years while you co-parent, even if you do decide to leave. In fact, there are a few senior members who post on the legal board after going through a HORRIBLE divorce/custody battle who said that they didn't find this site until after their marriage was done... .and wonder if they might have saved it had they found it earlier.

[anna58]

Keeping a bird's eye view is good advice. When I look down from above over the whole picture, I can see he carries a cloud of depression and chaos with him everywhere. It is sad. And I don't need that. AT ALL.

Of course the "high" side is confident, sexy, and very very engaging and attentive. But when he is that way, he isn't attending to reality. He is homeless. But he can act like he is a big shot. It reinforces to me how important it is that any man I am with is grounded and responsible.

Bird's eye view will clarify the truth. But that doesn't make it easy to act on. Oh my, that part is so difficult for me.

[lovenature]

How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

I looked at the positive vs. negative in my relationship, and I looked at whether it would get better or worse based on what REALITY had proven to me.

The good days can be the worst because they keep us hanging on, hoping for what we really want but know will most likely not happen. Relationships with a PWBPD require sacrifices, even if they are getting the right help.

[Faith_88]

Tired is a fitting word right now for me.  I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

I totally get you SamewizeGamgee. Exactly what I'm worrying about with my own relationship going forward. It doesn't seem much of a life, does it?

My friend asked me an interesting question last night:

Imagine yourself in the most peaceful, happy place you can, a meadow, a mountain lodge, whatever fits you. Imagine the serenity, the absolute calm you feel. Now, imagine your partner walks up. How do you feel?

It was very hard for me to say this to her, but for me, my partner's sudden presence was like clouds on a sunny day. Trouble ahead. Uncertainty and definitely not peace.

The problem is, I (or we, presuming) know all of this. We know how we feel. We know we could probably 'get along' with our BPD. I do have the grass is greener thought though (someone said they didn't) and also I/we know we could probably be in an 'easier' relationship. It's the decision making, because of those good days, that gets so clouded.

Florence & the Machine sum this terrible limbo up pretty well in 'Blinding' & also 'Caught'.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Faith 88 - I have enjoyed thinking about the approach you describe - of thinking about a serene, calm setting, and then introducing my wife.  I am using that to get a deeper understanding of my feelings for her.  Over the past, it would have brought feelings of fear, panic, disappointment, edginess, and occasionally some excitement or happiness to be fair.  Now, I am armored and insulated enough to say that I would probably just feel the standard distance and awareness of what I say and do.

@lovenature - When I first started my "spiritual awakening" I tried listing the good and bad of marriage vs. divorce.  I might try that again since I know much more now, and I am not set against divorce and ruled by fear. 

I sometimes still wish of one more good rage from her.  That would seal the deal, but, it's a lack of rages, and a few good days that mix things all up.  In all, I find it hard to see the good days, or the bad days for that matter.  I am just emotionally numb more and more now. 

[formflier]

I sometimes still wish of one more good rage from her.  That would seal the deal, but, it's a lack of rages, and a few good days that mix things all up.  In all, I find it hard to see the good days, or the bad days for that matter.  I am just emotionally numb more and more now. 

I'm assuming that we are talking about "sealing the deal" on ending or continuing the r/s... .correct?

Hey... .on the one hand I totally get making decisions about facts on the ground... .metrics.  example:  1 rage per month is tolerable... .you can deal with it and you stay.  3 per month is unsustainable and you decide to go.  I'm a "metric based decision maker"... .or at least I prefer that style... .so I really identify.

However... .I'm getting the vibe that this is NOT the dynamic at play here.  Can you tell me how many rages in the past 3 months?  Did you set a limit (number) and she has exceeded that?

Is it possible that you have decided in your head and in your heart that the r/s is over and you want out, however you are looking for further justification? 

How much is needed?

How many times have you decided... ."one more and that's it... ."?


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I would like a r/s metric too, but, then I wouldn't be here

Yes, Sealing the Deal would mean pushing me over the hump of indecision, and me heading to a lawyer for divorce initiation.  It's odd.  I struggled for a year or so because divorce was not allowed in my mind.  I hung on, against all hope, and suffered through very bad behavior on her part.  Now though, that I've worked out my own personal permission and acceptance of divorce, it seems like she's straightened up a bit and hasn't had the really bad stuff for a while.  It's been terribly hard on her (meaning she has been doing poorly with the whole boundaries, and my better mental health, and talking about my feelings and so forth - good for me, bad for her).  If this were international politics, it seems like my neighbor country is violating everything and making a mess - until I acquire nuclear bombs - then all is good and quiet.

Although we have had several recent conversations that were serious and deep, and we have talked about foundational issues, she has not had a good-old rage for a long time.  This makes me somewhat blame myself.  If she can deal with things calmly now that I'm healthier, the past chaos must be my fault.  

I have not set a number of incidents which she has exceeded.  I have moved myself emotionally outside of her artillery range.  That cuts down the possibility and severity of events.  As for metrics, I know I'll reach a point that I've simply feel as though I have had enough of the empty marriage and want it over.  But then a little sex, infrequent as it may be, patches things up so that I go on with life as-is.  Maybe she senses this too.  

I think you recognize correctly that I've perhaps decided, or accepted, and maybe wished for the marriage to be over and I just need a justification.

As for metrics, I am back to journal writing, which was one things that opened my eyes to the idea that I was actually an OK guy.  It did give some data leading to metrics. I described her rantings, rages, moods, the effects on the kids, and so forth. It was revealing.  Now that I've resumed, I can compare the present to the way things felt a year ago.  Maybe that will provide metrics, absent a nuclear exchange, and push me to decide.  I also debate triggering her into a rage to "poke the bear" and remind me what's reality.  Almost like thinking, "I'm ready now. I know what you are, and what you've been doing.  I see you now.  I'm ready for the fight."

Lots of military analogies in this post, I hope they make sense.  Thanks for the observations and thought provoking questions.

[teapay]

Even if you are still undecided, if you take the initiative, there are still many things that you can do to help you make the decision in the future.  You can start preparing the battlefield by addressing  any concerns that might be holding you back be they financial, custody, protecting your relationship with your kids, getting yourself set up and your own mental and emotional needs.  All this is easier to do now if you are not in crisis or in a combative mode, and are just unhappy and struggling to make a decision.  Just like buying a car, it is easier to make a better decision as a strong buyer than someone whose only vehicle just went to the dump.  Financially, you might be able move money around, pay things off, help pay for college, protect assets more easily now.  Getting your W back to work and more independent would be another important thing.  You kids seem old enough.   You can continue strengthen your relationship with you kids, so it doesn’t break during or post-separation and says strong regardless of potential smears.  You can shore up your case for 50-50 custody by documenting you fitness as a parent.  You can seek counseling for yourself if you haven’t.  Although she might be resistant, if you think it is warranted you can pressure your W to get treatment if she is slipping towards the depressed side.  Getting her in a better, more independent spot, could help the whole family if you split.  If she refuses, that might be more justification to separate.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@Teapay - I feel like that was a pat on the back or a hug, whichever fits
Early on in my reawakening, I did go about the business of preparing for divorce - mostly just to remove the obstacles of fear that kept me from thinking about it (even though divorce might save my emotional life in the long run).  So, I started reading up on it, joined an online forum for dad's divorcing.  Lapped up the advice I could get there.  Although no one can guarantee what will happen in the future, I have been able to prepare for some things.  I've started a separate bank account divorce warchest, tried earnestly to model and teach emotional intelligence to the kids, kept building a solid parenting relationship with them, and so forth.   I'm trying to be that informed buyer that you refer to.  This can be my undoing too.  I tend towards over-analysis and analysis paralysis.  I wish I would have put this kind of thought into starting a marriage rather than ending a marriage.  It could  have headed off a life of hard lessons and pain.

And you know, what you're saying about the wife getting her self more healthy can only help everyone.  She makes it tolerable for me and we stay, or gets stable enough to handle her "half" of the parenting, and becomes an asset to the kids. Win, win.  And possibly, a final push for me if it doesn't go well.  That proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

[formflier]

SamqizeGamgee,

I wish I knew your story better.  I'll make efforts to follow you more closely. 

I still feel confident in the comments I will make below.

 Now though, that I've worked out my own personal permission and acceptance of divorce, it seems like she's straightened up a bit and hasn't had the really bad stuff for a while.

This is NOT a coincidence.  I think it shows that working on yourself WILL improve the r/s.  Although your partner may have a different opinion.

Your thoughts on this?

 It's been terribly hard on her (meaning she has been doing poorly with the whole boundaries, and my better mental health, and talking about my feelings and so forth - good for me, bad for her).

My hope is that you can think deeply about this comment.  Find a place of empathy in your heart for this and a place of knowledge in your head that this isn't your issue to solve.

Both are equally valid and important ways for you to approach the r/s.

 

This makes me somewhat blame myself.  If she can deal with things calmly now that I'm healthier, the past chaos must be my fault

No... .NO... .NOO... .       

Step waaaaay back from this thinking.

Yes... .you do have a responsibility for your role.  Please use the word responsibility instead of fault.  When dealing with her role... .and yours.  Be kind to yourself. 

You didn't know what you didn't know. 

Now you do know. 

Be kind to yourself.  (yep... .deliberate in using that twice)  What does being kind to yourself look like in the next day or two?

Since you brought up military analogies... .I'll say that's an order!   


Last thought. 

Can you give the status of your relationship a break from your thinking for a month?

Focus on your part. 

My opinion is that you have made great strides.  That has allowed you to lower your anxiety level and start dealing with some "repressed" feelings.  That is affecting your judgment on "how bad" things really are.

Focus on current reality.  Rages are much better.  Declare a tactical victory.    Be kind to yourself.  Give yourself a month off from thinking about "strategy" (long term stuff).

Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can focus on a plan to sort through the feelings from the past.  Do you have a T?


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I like the sound of tactical victory.  I'll make that the headlines - in my head.

I kind of feel like I have had time off from fretting about my marriage condition for a good while.  I had a very happy Christmas, and a good portion of last year was very satisfying - as I kept a very healthy distance from my wife's inner struggles.  So, I think my time off from considering divorce happened already.  I'm rested and ready for the next step. Even if it's just another baby step.

I'll note the red flag thinking you point out.  More to ponder. 
Thank you!

[Grey Kitty]

Sam, if you read your posts through this topic, you will see that you are going through an emotional roller coaster, thinking you can stay some of the time, and wanting to be done with your marriage at others.

And there is NOTHING WRONG with your feelings being all over the place like this. It is pretty natural and normal.

If you let yourself have those feelings, experience them, but not act out rashly based on them, they may settle down a bit and give you clearer guidance as to what is the right thing to do.

Meanwhile (#1) ... .if you are thinking about divorce, "normal" resources may not give you accurate expectations about how it would look. Please check out the legal board and post there--SOME pwPBD tend toward high conflict divorce/custody battles, which drag on years and cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and can include false allegations which will have you spending a night in jail... Read there. Post there. Get an educated opinion of how likely your wife is to go that direction before you file.

And meanwhile (#2) ... .work on the tools for dealing with rages, and figure out how well you can protect yourself and your kids from it when she does get triggered into a rage.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@GK - your comments are making me analyze my thinking a bit.  I looked over my first few posts on bpdfamily for when I first joined in 2015.  I know I'm better now, but some of my main points, and even the words, I use are the same. I will divide that my feelings have solidified, but, my decision and indecision to leave are what vacillates.  I did actually believe I loved my wife two years ago. I felt conflict and turmoil because of that.  

Today I am just as hesitant to think about going forward with divorce, but not conflicted about my feelings.  I have searched, and believe them dead to her now.  
I love her as I love any person on earth.  I whish them well, and peace, and hope they find happiness.  I do not have the feelings of commitment, romance, longing, understanding, community, and wanting to be in the same room as her though.  

edit: also doing some soul searching and think I do have an occasional touch of thinking the grass is greener on the other side, thinking that maybe there is someone I can love who loves me back in a mutually beneficial adult relationship.  But, those ideas are fleeting and far between. 

[Grey Kitty]

my feelings have solidified, but, my decision and indecision to leave are what vacillates.

I'm somebody who gets stuck in indecision pretty easily myself, and I've got one interesting way of pushing myself forward; in your shoes it would go like this:

Mentally commit that you WILL leave, and make fairly detailed plans on exactly how you intend to do it, and what will happen. Given the divorce/custody issue, you will have to imagine 2-3 different outcomes and length/cost of legal battles inbetween to really visualize it.

But do this without actually starting, as in talk to lawyers and make a legal plan, but don't file, don't talk to your wife about it, etc.

And then examine your feelings. You may find a true sense of relief and resolve to go forward with it. You may find feelings of regret, anxiety, sadness over it. And if it just feels wrong, mentally flip the switch the other direction, and see if you are suddenly relieved about it.

I've often said that if you feel like you are choosing to stay in an unpleasant situation because you believe it is the right thing to do, it makes all the difference.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks.  I was stuck due to fear last year.  Fear of the unknown of what divorce meant, and what outcome I would get.  I did talk to a few attorneys, and although no one knows what will happen, I did really appreciate having done the groundwork of legal visits. 
I've done several things in preparation, as though divorcing.  I don't regret any of them.  I have to temper my feelings, otherwise I might look forward to divorce too much, and move forward based on false hope and ambition.  It wouldn't be the first time that I talked myself into a bad decision. 
Sometimes I think that maybe I just don't like my wife enough, and want to use BPD as an excuse.
And, as my thread title says, things don't seem so bad at other times - and maybe I can just dig down, hold my nose, and stay married.

[flourdust]

I did research, gathered documents, prepared property and financial lists, interviewed attorneys, etc. for months before filing for divorce. Think of it this way: you may never pull the trigger, but you should take the gun safety class.

[Torched]

Thanks.  I was stuck due to fear last year.  Fear of the unknown of what divorce meant, and what outcome I would get.  I did talk to a few attorneys, and although no one knows what will happen, I did really appreciate having done the groundwork of legal visits. 
I've done several things in preparation, as though divorcing.  I don't regret any of them.  I have to temper my feelings, otherwise I might look forward to divorce too much, and move forward based on false hope and ambition.  It wouldn't be the first time that I talked myself into a bad decision. 
Sometimes I think that maybe I just don't like my wife enough, and want to use BPD as an excuse.
And, as my thread title says, things don't seem so bad at other times - and maybe I can just dig down, hold my nose, and stay married.

You sound like me five years ago the first time I filed for divorce.  Indecision, then downplaying what I had went through... .I knew I needed to do it though.  Then I let everyone, her family and mine (mine are saints as they had been alienated heavily by her from my children and I) convince me that her saying she would finally get therapy meant I HAD to give her a chance.

Five years later I went through with it after she began heavily alienating my children from my family as they became adolescents.  Divorce is a horrible, horrible thing to go through Samwise... .the worst I've ever experienced, but it paled in comparison to 17 years of BPD spousal experiences all accumulated in one ugly and embarassing past.  Now she's on to victim #2, and she is happy as a clam.  Me, I'm still getting there and keeping my kids' health in focus as she has pretty much tuned them out.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Torched - Thank you.  I know I'll get backlash if I ever think of divorce.  No one else can understand what it's like.  On the outside, we look like a fine couple and family.  Divorce doesn't make good money sense.  I don't think I could describe daily life in true color so that someone else would understand.  At least until they have walked the path themselves.  Then we understand - the death of a thousand cuts.
Thank you for your honesty in saying that it's a horrible ordeal.  I don't want to just hear the advice about "run away and you'll be happy."
You put it well, that although I don't have the "smoking gun" - or reason that everyone will obviously accept as a motivation for divorce - it is like you say, the accumulation of (for me) 19 years of "experience."

Crawling out from under the rock of BPD influence is like waking from a coma.  I wonder where the years have gone.  I can hardly remember life before.

[Torched]

Torched - Thank you.  I know I'll get backlash if I ever think of divorce.  No one else can understand what it's like.  On the outside, we look like a fine couple and family.  Divorce doesn't make good money sense.  I don't think I could describe daily life in true color so that someone else would understand.  At least until they have walked the path themselves.  Then we understand - the death of a thousand cuts.

Another thing that happened I anticipated from some people... .but never expected from my best friend and his wife.  They were aghast at me divorcing her.  I explained everything I had went through behind closed doors for years.  I think they were unable to really believe it.  So many of the things I see written on this board as far as daily occurrences seem so far fetched, just like mine.  I waited for them to come around, but they didn't.  Now they hang out with my ex and her new victim, all happy.  I have not talked to them since trying to explain it.  This perhaps hurts more than the rest.  It was financially difficult to take, but better at 40 than at 50... .or 50 than 60... .

One nice thing Samwise... .at the moment I divorced, there were MANY others who stepped out of the woodwork who commented about things they had seen in past years and they KNEW what I had been dealing with.  These included my uncle, my high school football coach, two satellite friends who are now best friends of mine, and plenty of women who have ulterior motives but at least "saw" things and knew it was messed up.  I didn't have to set up a support structure thanks to these people.  I am forever in their debt as they all checked in on me and supported me constantly.

[Lucky Jim]

You put it well, that although I don't have the "smoking gun" - or reason that everyone will obviously accept as a motivation for divorce - it is like you say, the accumulation of (for me) 19 years of "experience."

Hey Sam, Waiting for a "smoking gun" could end up being a thankless vigil.  Those w/BPD are quite savvy about hiding their disorder from the outside world, because they've been covering their tracks all their lives.  Trying to come up with something that others will "accept as a motivation for divorce" is sort of quixotic, because the reality is that some will never accept nor understand your reasons.  Of course, those people have no idea what it is like to be married to someone w/BPD.  You do.

My BPDxW would often come up with her own distorted perceptions of reality.  In so many words, she would try to convince me that the sky is green.  Yet I always knew that the sky is blue.  I guess what I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, you know deep down whether you have valid reasons for a divorce, if you elect to go down that path.

LuckyJim

[Meili]

This is a great discussion, but the thread has reached its posting limit, so we split the thread. The discussion continues here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305951.0