I'm ready to learn the tools - III

[Oncebitten]

Mixed signals

I constantly find myself at a cross roads with her.  

Things come up and I know in my heart she needs me, she needs me there with her.  My instinct is to simply go to her, ride in and save her.  

And yet she tells me don't come here, I don't need you to do that, I haven't asked for that.  

And then she turns around and says you have never just showed up when I needed you.

She constantly sends mixed signals, I know if we lived closer it wouldn't be an issue.  But we aren't, its a days drive to be with her... .and that's what leaves me perplexed.  :)o I be brave and go... .and if she won't see me so be it?  If I just go am I being selfish since she told me not to come or am I being chivalrous?  Going bc she needs me, no matter if she sees me or not.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

I constantly find myself at a cross roads with her. 

you have gotten a lot of advice on this, the dynamics of your relationship, and what is needed to affect a change.

rather than us be redundant, it will help us better support you if you can clarify which bits of advice make sense to you, and which dont.

[Oncebitten]

I understand that I cant let her run the show so to speak.  And that I have to live my life and not allow her to dictate what I do.

I feel like this is different, this isnt just a trip or a vist... .she is in distress... .my instincts tell me she needs me... .even if she says she doesn't.

I guess my question is do I listen and respect her wishes or do I do what I feel is best... .she tends to appreciate those brave acts I guess youd call it

[once removed]

what distress is she in?

[Oncebitten]

family turmoil... .I just want to be there for her... .I know she hates for me to drive all that way just to give her a hug so to speak... .she even got upset and said my coming was selfish... .to me its selfless... .going to the one you love bc they are upset... .expecting nothing in return

[once removed]

she even got upset and said my coming was selfish... .to me its selfless... .going to the one you love bc they are upset... .expecting nothing in return

so you already know how this will go.

you are expecting something in return. you want to see her. interact with her. move your relationship forward.

from her perspective it is selfish, smothering, and not respecting her wishes.

its the opposite of the direction needed to achieve your goal. you already know that too.

[DreamGirl]

Putting the discussion of the relationship aside, for a minute.

Your love interest has (1) asked you not to visit and (2) expressed displeasure last time you made an uninvited visit. To visit her against her will or unannounced is harassment and could possibly rise to "stalking".

Stalking - People characterized as stalkers may be accused of having a mistaken belief that another person loves them (erotomania), or that they need rescuing. Stalking can sometimes consist of an accumulation of a series of actions which in themselves can be legal, such as calling on the phone, sending gifts, or sending emails, but cumulatively, are harassing.

The members are advising you, unequivocally, that to visit her without an explicit invitation is not appropriate and that any indirect expressions should not be interpreted as an explicit invitation.

This is undoubtedly hard to hear, but we saying this, this way, so here won't be any mixed messages coming from your support group friends. Everyone needs to be feel safe.

[livednlearned]

I agree with Skip.

Why not put the ball in her court?

You have to find a way to unload the responsibility for her mixed signals from your shoulders onto hers.

She wants to see you? She can make arrangements to come to you.

Be confident that you are worth the trip 

[heartandwhole]

You have to find a way to unload the responsibility for her mixed signals from your shoulders onto hers.

She wants to see you? She can make arrangements to come to you.

Be confident that you are worth the trip 

Totally agree with LnL.

Once, what about saying something like this to her: "Sweetie, I am worried about how much stress you are under right now and would love to come and be with you to help in any way I can. Since you've said that you don't want me to come, please tell me how I can best support you from here. I care very much about you."

That way, you've clearly expressed your desire to be with her, but have also respected her wishes. Ball in her court.

[Grey Kitty]

$.02 about mixed signals:

Maybe that is the best she can do. Maybe she can't give you a clear signal, or at least can't give you a clear "yes" signal.

My new attitude about mixed signals is to interpret the back-and-forth-maybe as "Nope". I want more than that in a partner, or even a friend. If you cannot be unambiguous that you want to be my friend, I'm moving on, and will look for good people that can be clear about it instead.

[patientandclear]

My new attitude about mixed signals is to interpret the back-and-forth-maybe as "Nope". I want more than that in a partner, or even a friend. If you cannot be unambiguous that you want to be my friend, I'm moving on, and will look for good people that can be clear about it instead.

 

Me too.

[heartandwhole]

Me too.

Me three 

[Oncebitten]

I decided to simply make my trip for work and not force her to see me.  Once I was done with my meeting I called her and told her I was done and that if I would love to see her if she liked if not I was heading back home.  She decided that it would be a shame to not see one another giving how close I was.  We went to supper together and had a wonderful time, she apologized for being so difficult about me coming to town.  Marveled at how comfortable we were both this time and asked when I would be able to come back.  I think it removed the unobtainable fantasy from her mind and helped her to realize that the last visit wasn't as bad as she had made it out to be.

[livednlearned]

Nice 

What is the takeaway for you?

[Oncebitten]

that the things we talk about, the things she says she wants when she is emotionally neutral are her true feelings... .not to say that her feelings aren't real when she is in distress, but they tend to be short lived.  I have come to realize that I simply need to remain consistent in my behavior, the less I react to her moods the better off we both are. I have come to realize that she will have outburts and they can be bad... .but as I have started using the tools consistently the r/s has improved dramatically.  I have simply started to let her vent about all the old wounds, listen activily but not really participate.  It no longer escalates to a fight... .simply a dispersal of emotion which I can appreciate

[livednlearned]

Those are good takeaways!

It may also be true that she stepped toward you when she sensed you were not coming there just to see her. You were doing something for yourself.

That's attractive to her.

Many people with BPD externalize their emotions. Your GF may too, where she feels secure and confident when you feel that way too.

The catch is that it can't be an act. 

[Oncebitten]

Yes she takes a lot of comfort in my certainty about things.  I have noticed a couple of times when I was very distressed/depressed about the r/s and spoke with a noticeable degree of uncertainty she got very upset. Most of the time I am positive about the r/s and its not an act.  I know the love is real and I feel that as long as I manitin a positive outlook and stay consistent with what our goals are we will be good.

[Grey Kitty]

  You handled it well. You were focused on what you wanted, instead of what "she might be thinking", which works much better. You can provide stability on your side ofthings; it won't be coming from her!

Anyhow, I'm glad it worked out. 

the things she says she wants when she is emotionally neutral are her true feelings... .not to say that her feelings aren't real when she is in distress, but they tend to be short lived.

I'd *mostly* agree... .except that I'd suggest that you consider all of what she says/does equal weight, believing it to be true at the time it is said. Try not to discount the bad/unpleasant ones as the "only" temporary ones so much.

[Oncebitten]

Grey Kitty

Im beyond glad that it worked out well too.  We are still on track for what we want.  And being calm and consistent on my side is a big reason why.  I know her fears are real and I dont discount them. I guess I just feel like at times she puts more weight on a single event than she should... .ie one bad meeting means we dont have real chemistry... .not the case and I was certain of that... .its real and I am glad she allowed me to see her and that I removed that fear

[Grey Kitty]

I guess I just feel like at times she puts more weight on a single event than she should.

Not arguing that she does this... .Just sayin' that she's probably going to continue doing this, and the recovery from it could be better or worse than it was this time.

[Oncebitten]

GK

she has always done that... .I guess its comes from being in the moment with her feelings. 



Everything has been going so well, yesterday she told me that she had called her friend the guy who has always caused us some problems.  They had a falling out a while back and she hadn't spoken to him in weeks.  Long story short, they patched things up and she told me she that she realized how much she missed his friendship.  She knows I dont like him, she knows how much he has always upset me.  He can't just be her friend, he always has to get his digs in about me and tell her how I am not right for her.  He has no desire to be her friend, he is just holding out hope they end up together.  She knows this, and she knows it upsets me, yet she seems incapable of letting go of him permanently.  He is her eternal fall back, a man who loves her and is dedicated to her and requires nothing back... .not even her to tell him she loves him, she claims she has never done that.

I never know how to handle it.  She aways says if forced to pick its me, but if thats true why does she have to keep him around? Does she do it just to triangulate me? or is she just scared to put it all into me?  I bothers me greatly and when I bring it up, and bring up how he feels about her... .her answer is always "what about me"... ."what about how I feel, I don't love him, never will, its you I love so why do you get mad that I talk to him or hang out with him once in a while?


Am I wrong for being upset?  Is this my issue or hers?

[Grey Kitty]

I never know how to handle it.  She aways says if forced to pick its me, but if thats true why does she have to keep him around? Does she do it just to triangulate me? or is she just scared to put it all into me?

First off, I'd avoid assuming she stays in contact with this guy BECAUSE of you in any way.

Second, I was in a somewhat similar situation with my stbexwife, actually a couple times, and I'll tell you what my experience was:

She would (usually) agree to cut contact or stay within the limits I insisted upon.

Then later (weeks or months usually) , she would re-connect or blow past my limits, when a different feeling/mood struck her, and her earlier "promise" didn't seem to apply, be worth it, or whatever.

This repeated many times.

Are you willing to put up with this if she keeps on doing it like this forever?

[Oncebitten]

GK

IDK anymore... .I don't feel like he can just be her friend.   Thats not what he wants, and I feel like as long as there is that dynamic, she and I will have problems. 

we always have, I have this jealous view if him, and she knows it and despite my objections she cant seem to cut him loose permanently.

[Oncebitten]

I feel as though I am loosing my mind... .I have my days with her and everything is perfect, we talk and make plans for the future.  And then it all flips around, she has to go spend time with her "friend" despite the fact that she knows I hate him.  All because he is there and he has the freedom to see her whenever she wants.  And I am here, I offer to make adjustments to my life, so that we can spend more time together but she doesn't want that.  I dont know how I endure this much longer.  The distance, the time apart, her spending time with him.  And as she put it, "I can't know what she does when she is with him, anymore than she can know what I do when I am not with her physically or on the phone".   I feel like I am still being punished for what happened this summer.  I times I can be mature about it and accept that he is her friend... .but then she says something like that and it eats at me... .I am losing control of my emotions.  I find myself breaking down into tears with her far more than I like... .Is there any solution to this pain?
I feel like I cant breathe without her and yet its driving me mad trying to be with her.

[patientandclear]

OB--sounds like there is a degree of distance she is comfortable with, and with both of you, she makes sure to insert the distance to keep you at arm's length. With you, you're long distance, she resists seeing you, and when you do have time together, she immediately drops the "friend" into your awareness. She is creating distance as a sort of safety valve. Put on his lenses for a moment and you can see the same is true. He's there, they're so close she can't not see him despite what she says to you ... .Yet from his perspective, she won't let go of the other guy (you).

Do you see how the system works? She is comfortable with this and it's happening for a reason, a reason that's not likely to just resolve itself.

My heart goes out to you. The pwBPD whom I loved could be very close to me--so long as there were certain barriers to prevent complete union. After a time, one of those was other women. The closer we got the more insistent he became that this was necessary and important to him. Over time the pattern became clear: we were very close, he was seeing someone else, there was a woman married to a good friend of his he was very close to, and there were probably other people. This was how he made himself feel safe. With only one of us, he would have felt unsafe for complex reasons: he would be too dependent, too vulnerable, too completely known. This was how he managed complex fears.

Making it harder to accept, like the woman in your life, he would idealize single partnership as his goal. He wasn't describing himself as a guy who wanted an open relationship. He was just living that way consistently over time. I was confused for a while, but then I had to accept this is what he does and he has no intention of changing and lacks the skills/insight to change.

Eventually the only question became whether I want to participate in that. I didn't and so I'm not a part of his life anymore. Some people can tolerate such an arrangement. You eventually will need to decide if you are one of them. If you're crying and in constant tension because of the barriers to complete intimacy that she puts up, including this guy, that's a good sign that you are not presently comfortable with how she is.

Knowing who YOU are here is paramount. I recommend assuming she is going to continue as she is now, and spending time figuring out what that means about how you want to proceed.

[Oncebitten]

PandC

That is exactly what she does, she tells me how badly she wants me, how she wants to get married as soon as we can... .we are forced into this LDR bc of circumstances right now but the goal is to be together, to have a life together.  But then she tells me how she needs to be able to go do things and have fun and that she can't just stay at home and wait for me to call... .which I understand, but why does it have to be with him?  Why, can't she have fun with her friends, why must it be this guy who has been in love with her for so long.  She wants us to remain exactly as we are, but doesnt want to give him up.  They had a falling out and had NC for several weeks... .the most peaceful time we have had in forever.  When we are together, everything is great.  I know that if we can get to that point where we can be together and remove the distance, so many of our problems will fall away.  I understand the condition and realize there will always be issues, but these issues are the worst.  The idea of her spending time with him makes me sick... .I have no idea what to do other than say the h*ll with circumstances and close the distance.

[patientandclear]

I think you may be misunderstanding. The distance is desirable and she will work to maintain it. Not in her fantasy of the life she wants, but in actuality.

The guy there is attractive because he is not you. If you "close the distance" it has the opposite effect. I don't think you are perceiving the safety valve function that both the physical distance and the other guy play (with respect to you). You may also consider whether you play the same role in his relationship with her. It may be that everyone is made to feel primary. Except for there's this one little fact that doesn't fit.

In your response above you say "this is exactly what she does," but don't seem to be hearing the point that she wants it this way. If you erase the distance you are NOT solving a problem she wants solved. Or at least, that is my best guess based on similar behavior by the man I loved, and from what you've recounted.

She injects distance and obstacles: she doesn't want to meet in person for whatever doesn't-make-much-sense reason. She sees him, even though she knows you don't want her to. She isn't sure about you because you saw someone else when you were broken up with her. Different details, same pattern. She likes to be a fraction of a full relationship with you and talk about the potential of more, but not really allow that to proceed. That feels good to her.

You are on Improving so I will just say that, to improve your state of mind and stay in this relationship, you'll need to stop expecting the distance to be removed or resolved. You would need to be OK that she uses these various devices that are currently painful to you and absorb a lot of energy and consternation, to achieve her desired distance. (Again, desired perhaps subconsciously; she may not be fully aware.)

[Oncebitten]

why keep me here if I am who she loves but allow herself to spend time with a man she has never had strong feelings for... .she has known him for years and has never been in love with him

[patientandclear]

I think you may be too credulous in accepting her description to you of what goes on with this other guy.

My ex wBPD and I were "friends" for several years after our overtly romantic relationship ended.  He would probably say to others about me what your person is saying about this other guy ("not in love, never in love".  Yet I can tell you that our relationship was deeply romantic and intimate in all but name.  And as to never in love, he said he was in love like never before at the beginning, etc.  He also always describes other women I later learned he passionately recruited for romantic relationships as "friends" who mysteriously got the wrong idea about his intentions.

Him denying that we were "in love" was more a feature of his dysfunction than an accurate description of our relationship, if that makes sense (and you're just going to have to take my word for this about what the deep "truth" was of our dynamic).

My guess would be that your person compartmentalizes and gets something quasi-intimate out of both relationships, and that works well for her.

[Notwendy]

I agree with PAC- that if all you know about this other guy is what she tells you, then that is all you know. There may or may not be more to the situation.

Why does she keep someone who is in love with her hanging around when she isn't reciprocating his affection?

This could apply to both you and this other guy. She may be paying enough attention to him to keep him hanging on in hope.

There could be more than emotionally safety in this. It is pretty flattering to have someone love you so much that you can do what you want and he would tolerate it- even at the cost of his own emotional pain- just to be able to love you. This could be a source of self esteem for someone.

As a general rule- the reason for any kind of behavior, even behavior that has an emotional or financial cost- is that the payoff of the behavior is higher than the cost. If this were not the case, then the person would not engage in this behavior.

Why is this woman doing what she is doing, when she proclaims she wants to be with you and she can? The simple answer is that there is a payoff to this behavior- she chooses to do it. Some payoffs might be safety, self esteem.  Is there a cost? Possibly, but not much risk of being left alone when there are two guys willing to tolerate it.

What is the end point of this? I want to be clear I am not telling you to end the relationship. But anyone who enforces boundaries in a relationship- he/she takes the risk that the other person may not like the boundaries and choose to end the relationship. That risk is really always there in any relationship- people have choices and we can only control our own.

I think one possible end to this is when you pay attention to your own feelings and decide what you can accept and what you can not. She's making her choices, and you can't change them. But so long as you hang in there no matter what, she can do this with no risk to her relationship with you. Establishing a boundary also gives her the choice to choose you or not. But that is a scary risk for you.

I think this can possibly end when you feel you can be OK with or without her. That is actually a better situation in or out of a relationship. We choose to be with someone because- we want to, not because we can not exist without them. If we feel OK with ourselves, then we can maintain boundaries better and not fear the risk of them so much.

It could also end when you decide that you have had enough of this kind of emotional pain, when the emotional cost of this relationship exceeds the payoffs.

Or you could arrive at accepting the fact that this is who she is, and choose to be there anyway, without wishing she was different.


I don't know how this will evolve for you. I can see you are hurting and how difficult this is for you. But the patterns between you two are not likely to change unless one of you chooses to interact in a different way- and she seems to have things in such a way that she doesn't want to change them.